Help to evaluate Job Offer

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JHU ALmuni
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Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:40 pm

Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by JHU ALmuni » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:11 am

Current Employer:
  • Large well known bank (Top 5)
  • 96K Base Salary plus 10% Bonus
  • 4 Weeks of Vacation Time
  • VP Level
Job Offer:
  • Small Bank
  • 100K Base Salary plus 10% Bonus
  • 3 Weeks of Vacation Time
  • AVP Level
As far as 401K and health insurance plans, there are no big differences between the two companies. Cost of living/Commute Time will not change as well.

The only reason I'm interested in the position is because it will allow me to work in an area I'm not exposed to at my current employer. But going from a VP Level at a Large Bank to an AVP Level at a Small Bank is concerning to me. From what I learned during the interviews I'm very close to be considered for a VP Level but they want to keep this position at an AVP Level.

Would you take such an offer? I'm 35 years old and will be working for the next two decades.
Last edited by JHU ALmuni on Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

riverguy
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by riverguy » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:14 am

Seems like a big downgrade.

JHU ALmuni
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by JHU ALmuni » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:22 am

riverguy wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:14 am
Seems like a big downgrade.
Exactly how I feel about it, but it will allow me to gain experience in an area I'm not exposed to now and after gaining that experience I expect my compensation to increase by ~25% when I make my next move. But giving this is a small bank, I'm not sure how other companies will view my experience there.

mortfree
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by mortfree » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:26 am

I think your age is also a consideration.

if you are early in your career versus closer to retirement...

goblue100
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by goblue100 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:27 am

If you take the job at the small bank, how long would you plan to stay there? What is the likelihood you will get promoted to VP at the small bank before you decide to move on?

I would think if you are planning to be there for >3 years and will be a VP before deciding to move on, the downgrade in position shouldn't hurt too much.
Financial planners are savers. They want us to be 95 percent confident we can finance a 30-year retirement even though there is an 82 percent probability of being dead by then. - Scott Burns

JHU ALmuni
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by JHU ALmuni » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:29 am

mortfree wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:26 am
I think your age is also a consideration.

if you are early in your career versus closer to retirement...
I'm 35 years old.

GT99
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by GT99 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:29 am

I consulted for a top 5 bank years ago, and found the titles to be hysterical. Everyone is a VP. The guy I worked for was a VP who reported to a VP. The full chain of command was something like this VP > VP > VP > SVP > SVP > EVP > C-level.

Point being, is that titles in the banking world seem to be kind of nonsense.

That said, I get your conundrum. The last two job changes I made were for promotions in title and responsibility, in addition to salary. I'm not sure I would have taken them if they were just increases in salary. Based on just what you have laid out here, it doesn't seem like a very good move, but we don't know how valuable the experience in the new area is.

I'd find out the opportunity for advancement in the small bank if you don't already know. Are you likely to be stuck at the same level for a while when you're ready to advance?

Are there any other benefits to the small bank, like greater flexibility in hours, etc? In my experience, Vacation time is most important to HR and for folks in more "clock-puncher" type jobs. I don't know that I've ever had a boss who wouldn't have given me an extra day or two of vacation time if I needed it (and I've literally had hiring managers tell me not to worry about vacation time up front). My feeling is similar as a manager - if someone delivers, I don't care how much PTO they take. Point being it, 3 weeks vs 4 weeks might not make much difference in reality.

Admiral
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by Admiral » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:37 am

Isn't the rule of thumb that it's not worth the move for less than 15-20% bump in salary (all other things being equal and assuming this is not a lower-salary-for-less-stress lifestyle choice)?

Is this a firm offer? I would absolutely make your concerns clear to the HR person or whomever and say that to compensate for the risk, you need more money (assuming you care about the money as well as the title.)

Is the title the main issue, or is it working for a smaller org? The latter can't be helped. If it's the former:

Another avenue would be to agree to the current offer but put in the employment agreement that you will have a 360 review in six months and, assuming positive, will get a the title that you want, and a raise. I agree that internally titles are often meaningless but they do have import outside your own workplace. For some years I was offered a "more important" title plus a small raise in lieu of the 20% raise I had been asking for. I kept my title. Eventually I got the big raise and the better title.

JHU ALmuni
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by JHU ALmuni » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:17 am

Please see answers below:
Admiral wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:37 am
Isn't the rule of thumb that it's not worth the move for less than 15-20% bump in salary (all other things being equal and assuming this is not a lower-salary-for-less-stress lifestyle choice)?

That's true, but I'm more interested in the experience at this point but given this is a small bank not sure if the experience will look good on my resume giving I will be leaving a well known bank.

Is this a firm offer? I would absolutely make your concerns clear to the HR person or whomever and say that to compensate for the risk, you need more money (assuming you care about the money as well as the title.)

Will negotiate for sure.


Is the title the main issue, or is it working for a smaller org? The latter can't be helped. If it's the former:

Both, I'm relatively new to banking and not sure how size/reputation of the bank might affect future opportunities.

Another avenue would be to agree to the current offer but put in the employment agreement that you will have a 360 review in six months and, assuming positive, will get a the title that you want, and a raise. I agree that internally titles are often meaningless but they do have import outside your own workplace. For some years I was offered a "more important" title plus a small raise in lieu of the 20% raise I had been asking for. I kept my title. Eventually I got the big raise and the better title.

tarmangani
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by tarmangani » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:48 pm

I wouldn't say that's enough of a salary increase to be worth it. And, to be honest, as someone who hires folks, I'd be skeptical of claims that you left a job because it allowed you to experience something different. That's an unusual reason. Maybe you could cast it off as something else, but even still. I'd leave if the new job were something you really wanted to do, but I don't get that sense from your post. It sounds more like you want to do something for resume building.

If you can negotiate a much bigger salary or another title, ok. Right now it's not a very competitive offer since it comes with a positional downgrade (I assume this is the case; I don't know this field much and am only offering a general perspective). They're even giving you less vacation, though they would probably match your current setup.

bluebirdy
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by bluebirdy » Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:50 pm

I would not make this switch. Sounds like a significant downgrade.

JHU ALmuni
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by JHU ALmuni » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:30 am

Thank you all for the input. I agree this is not a very good offer. The main reason I'm considering it is because I'd like to grow my skill set...

simas
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by simas » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:48 am

JHU ALmuni wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:30 am
Thank you all for the input. I agree this is not a very good offer. The main reason I'm considering it is because I'd like to grow my skill set...
Then don't take it. also WTF is this - 'From what I learned during the interviews I'm very close to be considered for a VP Level but they want to keep this position at an AVP Level.' ?? they expect for you to step down when you join? 'Very close' is pointless and rather insulting, they either want to offer (they think you worth it) or don't (they do not think you worth it), 'close' means nothing.

I went from very large company to very small company into 'lead' position that get vacated - they retitled it to be director level, changed comp, and accommodated my flexibility need. everything is negotiable, this is your time to define it if you at all care to work with them. and if they are not willing to give you VP/comp now when they are courting you and want to impress you the most, why in the world you think they would do it later??


if you want to work with them tell them straight up - hey, loved your (company, culture, people). at the same time (do not use the word 'but'), for me to make it attractive it has to be blah-blah-blah (VP level, 1XX base, X bonus, etc.) they can always say no in whatever form they want , problem solved.

Luke Duke
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by Luke Duke » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:17 am

GT99 wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:29 am
I consulted for a top 5 bank years ago, and found the titles to be hysterical. Everyone is a VP. The guy I worked for was a VP who reported to a VP. The full chain of command was something like this VP > VP > VP > SVP > SVP > EVP > C-level.
My (limited) experience as well.

fishmonger
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by fishmonger » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:22 am

Luke Duke wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:17 am
GT99 wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:29 am
I consulted for a top 5 bank years ago, and found the titles to be hysterical. Everyone is a VP. The guy I worked for was a VP who reported to a VP. The full chain of command was something like this VP > VP > VP > SVP > SVP > EVP > C-level.
My (limited) experience as well.
+2. Always makes me laugh. Banks throw around VP titles like dimes.

Current employer seems like a good deal. You're talking $4k difference in comp and would lose an add'l week of vacation (I'm assuming that you actually take the days you earn).

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wabbajack
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by wabbajack » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:32 am

JHU ALmuni wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:30 am
Thank you all for the input. I agree this is not a very good offer. The main reason I'm considering it is because I'd like to grow my skill set...
If you want to do something different to grow your skill set, I'd consider doing that with your current position. The difference in comp isn't nearly enough for me to think about.

Unless there's some other non-financial reason here (crappy boss, bad work environment, etc.), I don't see why this offer would be compelling at all.

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BolderBoy
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by BolderBoy » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:54 am

JHU ALmuni wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:11 am
Would you take such an offer? I'm 35 years old and will be working for the next two decades.
No, not in this case. But I'd keep looking for a position that offers what you want in an upwardly mobile environment.
"Never underestimate one's capacity to overestimate one's abilities" - The Dunning-Kruger Effect

bampf
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by bampf » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:23 am

JHU ALmuni wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:11 am
Current Employer:
  • Large well known bank (Top 5)
  • 96K Base Salary plus 10% Bonus
  • 4 Weeks of Vacation Time
  • VP Level
Job Offer:
  • Small Bank
  • 100K Base Salary plus 10% Bonus
  • 3 Weeks of Vacation Time
  • AVP Level
As far as 401K and health insurance plans, there are no big differences between the two companies. Cost of living/Commute Time will not change as well.

The only reason I'm interested in the position is because it will allow me to work in an area I'm not exposed to at my current employer. But going from a VP Level at a Large Bank to an AVP Level at a Small Bank is concerning to me. From what I learned during the interviews I'm very close to be considered for a VP Level but they want to keep this position at an AVP Level.

Would you take such an offer? I'm 35 years old and will be working for the next two decades.
Not only no, but he!! no. First, AVP is generally reserved for those with less than 2 years experience or very early in their career (depending on what side of the bank you are working on). Next, if you work for a big corp and you take a step up to go to a smaller corp, that may be ok, but never a step down. Next, the money isn't even the same (3 weeks vs 4 weeks). You are probably looking at a pay cut and certainly you will be throttled by your compensation level. Finally, why would anyone offer you a demotion as an incentive to leave? That's just foolishness on their part which means that they are not the kind of people you are looking to work with or for. Don't walk away, run away. Or renegotiate for SVP at $130K. Seriously.

imsomeguy
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by imsomeguy » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:46 am

Nope and nope.

When taking a new job the only two things that matter to me are title & salary (fine call me shallow). Too many times the new job is way different than what you thought it would be, not necessarily bad but just different. So at least control what you can from the start.

Also at this stage in your career never take a step down in title there are so many obstacles to promotions and nobody can guarantee anything. Similar on compensation, most future raises are based on a percentage of what you currently make (base salary is all that counts) so get your base up before you start

There might be other reasons to consider the offer (quality of life, commute etc). But on base salary and title i wouldn't take it

JHU ALmuni
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by JHU ALmuni » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:03 pm

Thank you everyone. Nice to hear others opinions, definitely not a good offer.

Traveler
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by Traveler » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:07 pm

A VP at major bank only makes $96K? Or is this part of the overinflated title game the banks play?

JHU ALmuni
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by JHU ALmuni » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:22 pm

Traveler wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:07 pm
A VP at major bank only makes $96K? Or is this part of the overinflated title game the banks play?
Both, plus it depends on the location and the specialty. I'm in relatively low cost of living area. VP of Technology isn't the same as VP of Training Development (for example) or other non technical specialities.

JuniorBH
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by JuniorBH » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:41 am

Admiral wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:37 am
Isn't the rule of thumb that it's not worth the move for less than 15-20% bump in salary (all other things being equal and assuming this is not a lower-salary-for-less-stress lifestyle choice)?
I would agree with this. There is inherent risk in changing companies and IMO you should be compensated for it. Is there not a way to get this experience at the current company or another company of a similar size?

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Geneyus
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by Geneyus » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:55 pm

I would think longevity at your employer and an extra week of vacation every year is worth more than $4k more at a new job. What happens if someone above you leaves at your current job? Experience and longevity matters at most places.

togb
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by togb » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:17 pm

Really?
They want you to take a demotion to join a lesser organization, lose a week's vacation but they will give you 4K annually to make up for this? Absolutely not. And as for the title? that explanation totally lacks credibility.

Get the experience you want at a brand name company, at your current level. I'm not sure why the conversation got this far.

youdiditr2
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by youdiditr2 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:33 pm

Horrible offer. If they really wanted you, they would make the AVP to a VP position.

You can ask to take on projects if you want more exposure.

bltn
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by bltn » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:33 pm

If you really feel that leaving your current position is a good idea, I d look for a different opportunity.

Luckywon
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Re: Help to evaluate Job Offer

Post by Luckywon » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:17 pm

I'd pass, for sure. Looks like a demotion. Future employers may suspect something went awry at your current job, no matter what you explain.

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