Need some advice - self employed

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pkjr
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Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:01 am

Need some advice - self employed

Post by pkjr » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:46 am

Hello everyone - I am new to this forum and I would like to thank everyone for your help.

Summary:

I am located in US just turned 51 , married 2 kids 12&14
Household Income $180k
Married Filing Jointly
State FL

Business Owner-Business Incorporated Sub S , Lic Real Estate
Wife - medical field

His Existing Retirement Approach:
Roth $30k - mostly cash, some ATT, SO, VTR, FTAI stocks (it's a mess)
Free Clear Real Estate $1.1 mln rented $5k/mo

Hers:
220k in Fidelity 403b/401a (employer is matching 6%)
403 b:
AMDVX AM CENT MD CP VAL R6 $11591.86 ER 0.63%
DODIX DODGE & COX INCOME $4605.66 ER 0.43%
GAGI METLIFE STABLE VALUE $4391.46 ER 0.49%
LZEMX LZRD EMRG MKTS EQ IS $6972.73 ER 1.08%
RERGX AF EUROPAC GROWTH R6 $21559.81 ER 0.49
SBLYX CBA LG CAP GR I $29344.74 ER 0.78%
VMGRX VANG MIDCAP GRTH INV $11974.80 ER 0.36%
VSGIX VANG SM GR IDX INST $13248.64 ER0.36%
VWNAX VANG WINDSOR II ADM $28203.41 ER 0.26%

401A:
AMDVX AM CENT MD CP VAL R6 $7093.00
DODIX DODGE & COX INCOME $2650.93
GAGJ METLIFE STABLE VALUE $2512.47
LZEMX LZRD EMRG MKTS EQ IS $4063.42
RERGX AF EUROPAC GROWTH R6 $12936.78
SBLYX CBA LG CAP GR I $18260.12
VMGRX VANG MIDCAP GRTH INV $7393.04
VSGIX VANG SM GR IDX INST $8366.70
VWNAX VANG WINDSOR II ADM $17303.57

Debt:
CC - $30k @ 15%
Car $30k @ 1%
House (not included in RE above): Equity $200k Mtg 400 @4%

I do expect my income to go up.

I run a small real estate business (no employees, 1099 contractors). As a result, all my net worth/savings are in Real Estate

I would like to start investing in stocks to diversify as I do not think I need more houses under management.
I have a small Roth account that I have set up years ago but I have not used it much. It has around $30k in cash and a couple of stocks that didn't do anything with it and performance < 0.

I do carry some debt on CC from some real estate rehabs around $50k that I am in process of paying it off.
We have one car loan $30k and a mortgage on our primary residence.
I do contribute to my kids Roth:-) though.. as I realized how important time is in this equation and they write letters for me and prepare mailings

I have 2 questions:
- should I set up solo 401k? or keep contributing to Roth? (I am paying my account $1500/ yr and actually never got any advice about my retirement contribution/potential deductions)
- I don't mind being aggressive in savings, but would I be better off contributing to CC debt aggressively and also some to a retirement fund?

Thank you for your wisdom


Available funds in my wife's 403B

Stock Investments - Large Cap
CBA LG CAP GR I (SBLYX) ER 0.78%
VANG WINDSOR II ADM (VWNAX) ER 0.26%
VANGUARD INST INDEX (VINIX) ER 0.035%

Stock Investments - Mid-Cap
AM CENT MD CP VAL R6 (AMDVX) 0.66%
VANG MIDCAP GRTH INV (VMGRX) 0.36%
VANG MIDCAP IDX INST (VMCIX) 0.04

Stock Investments - Small Cap
VANG SM GR IDX INST (VSGIX) 0.06%
VANG SM VAL IDX INST (VSIIX) 0.06%

Stock Investments - International
AF EUROPAC GROWTH R6 (RERGX) 0.49%
LZRD EMRG MKTS EQ IS (LZEMX) 1.08%
VANG DEV MKT IDX IS (VTMNX) 0.06%

Blended Investments*
TRP RETIRE I 2010 ITRP RETIRE I 2010 I (TRPAX) 0.42%
TRP RETIRE I 2015 ITRP RETIRE I 2015 I (TRFGX) 0.45%
TRP RETIRE I 2020 ITRP RETIRE I 2020 I (TRBRX) 0.49
TRP RETIRE I 2025 ITRP RETIRE I 2025 I (TRPHX) 0.52%
TRP RETIRE I 2030 ITRP RETIRE I 2030 I (TRPCX) 0.55%
TRP RETIRE I 2035 ITRP RETIRE I 2035 I (TRPJX) 0.58
TRP RETIRE I 2040 ITRP RETIRE I 2040 I (TRPDX 0.40%
TRP RETIRE I 2045 ITRP RETIRE I 2045 I (TRPKX)
TRP RETIRE I 2050 ITRP RETIRE I 2050 I (TRPMX)
TRP RETIRE I 2055 ITRP RETIRE I 2055 I (TRPNX)
TRP RETIRE I 2060 ITRP RETIRE I 2060 I (TRPLX)
TRP RETIRE I BAL ITRP RETIRE I BAL I (TRPTX)

Bond Investments - Stable Value
METLIFE STABLE VALUE

Bond Investments - Income
DODGE & COX INCOMEDODGE & COX INCOME (DODIX) 0.43%
FIDELITY GOVT INCOMEFIDELITY GOVT INCOME (FGOVX) 0.45%
PIM REAL RETURN INSTPIM REAL RETURN INST (PRRIX) 0.88%
VANG TOT BD MKT INSTVANG TOT BD MKT INST (VBTIX) 0.04%
Last edited by pkjr on Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:24 am, edited 5 times in total.

ExitStageLeft
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:02 pm

Re: Need some advice - self employed

Post by ExitStageLeft » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:38 pm

Welcome to the forum!

There are a lot of questions that will need answering to best give you helpful advice. If you review the format given in this thread and then edit your post, it will save a lot of back and forth. You can edit your post using the pencil icon in the top right corner.

If you have the income available it is always worthwhile to save for your future. A solo 401k may make a lot of sense; we should get a better understanding of that when we have info on your income level. If your household income exceeds $200k then you make too much money to save directly in a Roth IRA and the 401k starts to look even better.

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ruralavalon
Posts: 13509
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:29 am
Location: Illinois

Re: Need some advice - self employed

Post by ruralavalon » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:55 pm

Welcome to the forum :) .

pkjr wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:46 am
Hello everyone - I am new to this forum and I would like to thank everyone for your help.

I am located in US just turned 50, married 2 kids 12&14

I run a small real estate business (no employees). As a result, all my net worth/savings are in Real Estate/ I have 1.1 mln in free and clear houses generating $5k/mo gross income (excluding primary residence).
My wife has 403b/401a program offered employer at fidelity with $220k.
I have not invested in the market.

I would like to start investing in stocks to diversify as I do not think I need more houses under management.
I have a small Roth account that I have set up years ago but I have not used it much. It has around $30k in cash and a couple of stocks that didn't do anything with it and performance < 0.

I do carry some debt on CC from some real estate rehabs around $50k that I am in process of paying it off.
We have one car loan $30k and a mortgage on our primary residence.
I do contribute to my kids Roth:-) though.. as I realized how important time is in this equation and they write letters for me and prepare mailings

I have 2 questions:
- should I set up solo 401k? or keep contributing to Roth? (I am paying my account $1500/ yr and actually never got any advice about my retirement contribution/potential deductions)
- I don't mind being aggressive in savings, but would I be better off contributing to CC debt aggressively and also some to a retirement fund?

Thank you for your wisdom
Some additional information will be helpful.

What are the interest rates and balances on the credit card debt, the car loan and the mortgage note on your home?

What is your tax bracket, both federal and state?

Is there an employer match offered in her 403b/401a account? If so what is it? How much does she need to contribute to get the full employer match each year?

About how much (in dollars) do you believe that you might be able to contribute annually to investing (total, all accounts)?

Could you also please list the funds offered in her 403b/401a plan, giving fund names, tickers and expense ratios? Please see this for format: "Asking Portfolio Questions". You can simply add this to your original post using the edit button (the pencil icon near the upper right corner of your post), it helps a lot if all of your information is in one place.

. . . . .

Ordinarily paying off high interest credit card debt is a top priority. Here is a general account funding priority that usually works well for many people (when there is no HSA use):
1) Contribute to the work-based plans (401k, 403b, 457, TSP, etc.) enough to get the full employer match (the match is like free money, your best possible investment);
2) pay off high interest debt (a guaranteed high return, the next best thing to free money);
3) Contribute the maximum to an IRA, traditional or Roth (or backdoor Roth technique), depending on eligibility and personal circumstances;
4) Contribute the remainder of the maximum employee contribution to the work-based accounts; and
5) Contribute to a taxable investing account.

"If the company plan offers good, low-cost funds, it may be preferable to contribute to the company plan before contributing to an IRA." Please see the wiki article "Prioritizing investments".

. . . . .

Since you are self-employed you could consider using a SEP IRA, SIMPLE IRA, or individual (solo) 401k. Vanguard, small-business plans,"Compare plans". Fidelity also offers the same types of plans. Fidelity "Retirement plans for small businesses ".

The Bogleheads' wiki has articles on each type of plan. Boglehead's wiki, "SEP IRA". Boglehead's wiki, "SIMPLE IRA". Boglehead's wiki, "Solo 401k Plan".
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link:Getting Started

aristotelian
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Re: Need some advice - self employed

Post by aristotelian » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:11 pm

Are you actually self employed? I am not a real estate investor but my impression is that the IRS considers real estate to be passive income, in which case you could not do Solo 401k or Roth.

Jablean
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:38 pm

Re: Need some advice - self employed

Post by Jablean » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:49 pm

Roth for your kids - they can only have a Roth based on the income they earn and paying them with a Roth is a bit iffy. So document that you are paying them with a 1099 and then they can elect to invest it in a Roth or you can match what you pay them. Are you doing any 529 for them, that might be better.

Roth for you- Yes, for now just do it to the max, $5,500 a year and get it invested now in a total stock index fund. You need 0 cash in your Roth, get it working. Same for your kids, don't just stuff cash in the mattress. You can think about a solo 401k (or a SEP IRA which is what we do) later after you get on track with figuring out investments.

Yes, pay off your credit card loans - you may need to move things around and consolidate to get good %. I bet you are paying $800 a month just in interest. A lot of times you can get 0% for 12 months or more. They all charge at least 3% off the top but it only takes about 3 months for you to come out ahead. It took me over 2+ years to pay off $25,000 so get to work on it. Start your Excel sheet now and track it.

Car loan of $30,000? Why? You've got lots of debt with cc, car, mortgage, and kid's college is coming up too.

So max your Roth and get it invested in the market. Figure out a three year plan to close out the cc debt. Don't buy new cars, make sure you have an emergency fund. You shouldn't have any cash left over to "play" in the market. All stock market money should be in retirement accounts.

pkjr
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:01 am

Re: Need some advice - self employed

Post by pkjr » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:15 pm

Thank you for all the comments. I have updated my original post above.
aristotelian wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:11 pm
Are you actually self employed? I am not a real estate investor but my impression is that the IRS considers real estate to be passive income, in which case you could not do Solo 401k or Roth.
Yes I work in a business I am not a passive investor :-)
Jablean wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:49 pm
Roth for your kids - they can only have a Roth based on the income they earn and paying them with a Roth is a bit iffy. So document that you are paying them with a 1099 and then they can elect to invest it in a Roth or you can match what you pay them. Are you doing any 529 for them, that might be better.
I have started them this year and they are getting 1099 for direct mail services
Jablean wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:49 pm
Roth for you- Yes, for now just do it to the max, $5,500 a year and get it invested now in a total stock index fund. You need 0 cash in your Roth, get it working. Same for your kids, don't just stuff cash in the mattress. You can think about a solo 401k (or a SEP IRA which is what we do) later after you get on track with figuring out investments.

Yes, pay off your credit card loans - you may need to move things around and consolidate to get good %. I bet you are paying $800 a month just in interest. A lot of times you can get 0% for 12 months or more. They all charge at least 3% off the top but it only takes about 3 months for you to come out ahead. It took me over 2+ years to pay off $25,000 so get to work on it. Start your Excel sheet now and track it.
Yes I actually have paid off $20k this year so the number above is after paying it off. Not an easy task to do.

I am still not sure if I need solo 401k for my business or stick with Roth?
ruralavalon wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:55 pm

Is there an employer match offered in her 403b/401a account? If so what is it? How much does she need to contribute to get the full employer match each year?

About how much (in dollars) do you believe that you might be able to contribute annually to investing (total, all accounts)?

Could you also please list the funds offered in her 403b/401a plan, giving fund names, tickers and expense ratios? Please see this for format: "Asking Portfolio Questions". You can simply add this to your original post using the edit button (the pencil icon near the upper right corner of your post), it helps a lot if all of your information is in one place.

My wife's employer is matching 6%.. Once I pay off credit cards I could contribute $1-2k/mo towards a retirement account. I have an updated list of her funds and it looks like they are expensive, right?

Spirit Rider
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Re: Need some advice - self employed

Post by Spirit Rider » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:59 pm

It is absolutely improper to classify your children as Independent Contractors and pay them on a 1099. There is no possible way to meet IRS Behavoial/Financial Control and Relationship requirements. Not to mention it is massively counter-productive.

With self-employment income, they will have to pay 15.3% SE tax. Children as a W-2 employee of self-employed businesses owned exclusively by parents, pay no FICA if < 18, pay no unemployment insurance if < 21 and can file a W-4 claiming exemption from income tax withholding.

This means that you do not have to run payroll. The only thing you will need do is file a W-2 if wages are >= $600. This can be done online in January for about $5.

pkjr
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Re: Need some advice - self employed

Post by pkjr » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:07 pm

Spirit Rider wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:59 pm
It is absolutely improper to classify your children as Independent Contractors and pay them on a 1099. There is no possible way to meet IRS Behavoial/Financial Control and Relationship requirements. Not to mention it is massively counter-productive.

With self-employment income, they will have to pay 15.3% SE tax. Children as a W-2 employee of self-employed businesses owned exclusively by parents, pay no FICA if < 18, pay no unemployment insurance if < 21 and can file a W-4 claiming exemption from income tax withholding.

This means that you do not have to run payroll. The only thing you will need do is file a W-2 if wages are >= $600. This can be done online in January for about $5.
Great point and thank you for you advice. Having them as W2 employee would preclude me from having solo401k though, right?

Spirit Rider
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Re: Need some advice - self employed

Post by Spirit Rider » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:40 pm

pkjr wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:07 pm
Great point and thank you for you advice. Having them as W2 employee would preclude me from having solo401k though, right?
Nope.

With the exception of Vanguard which is not a good choice for other reasons. All the other mainstream low cost brokerages allow the election of employee eligibility restrictions in their one-participant 401k plans.

The IRS allowed employee eligibility restrictions are:
1. Minimum age not > 21.
2. Minimum service not > 1 year defined as not > 1000 hours.

You can still adopt/maintain a one-participant 401k as long as there are no non-spouse eligible employees. The employee eligibility restrictions will allow you to have your children and other employees < age 21 and/or < 1000 hours/year without consequence.

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ruralavalon
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Location: Illinois

Re: Need some advice - self employed

Post by ruralavalon » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:15 am

The first investing priority (after contributing enough to her work-based account to get the employer match) ) should be paying off the credit card debt, $30k at 15% interest.

Second, you could open an individual (solo) 401k at a low cost provider like Vanguard or Fidelity.

Third, make use of Roth IRAs. Your wife could open a Roth IRA at a low cost provider like Vanguard or Fidelity. You have mostly cash in your Roth IRA, put that to work with low cost index funds. For better diversification consider selling the individual stocks you hold in your Roth IRA.

Contribute the maximum allowed to the Roth IRAs. At age 51 you are allowed to contribute up to $6.5k per year to your Roth IRA.

In the Roth IRAs use very diversified low expense stock index funds, such as Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund Admiral Shares (VTSAX) ER 0.04% and Vanguard Total International Stock Index Fund Admiral Shares (VTIAX) ER 0.11%.

Fourth, your wife could increase contributions to her work-based plan. Her 403b/401a plan does offer some good well diversified, actively managed funds with low to moderate expense ratios. The funds I suggest that she consider using are:
1) Vanguard Wellington II Fund Admiral Shares (VWNAX) ER 0.26%;
2) American Funds EuroPacific Growth Fund R6 (RERGX) ER 0.49%; and
3) Dodge & Cox Income Fund (DODIX) ER 0.43%
Those are not "expensive " funds.

It is often better to coordinate investments across all accounts, in other words treat all accounts of a married couple together as a single unified portfolio, rather than view each account separately.

. . . . .

What fund firm is your Roth IRA with?

What is your wife's age?

What is your federal tax bracket? Here are calculators you can use to estimate your federal tax bracket. First estimate your "taxable income". money chimp, "Tax Calculator". Then use your "taxable income" to estimate your "tax bracket". Moneychimp, "Federal Tax Brackets".

Again please simply add this to your original post using the edit button.
Last edited by ruralavalon on Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link:Getting Started

pkjr
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Re: Need some advice - self employed

Post by pkjr » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:05 am

Thank you..

what are your thoughts about exchanging in my wife's portfolio from
LZEMX LZRD EMRG MKTS EQ IS $6972.73 ER 1.08%
to VTMNX

The other option I have is
American Funds EuroPacific Growth Fund® Class R-6 RERGX ER 0.49%

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ruralavalon
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Location: Illinois

Re: Need some advice - self employed

Post by ruralavalon » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:17 am

pkjr wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:05 am
Thank you..

what are your thoughts about exchanging in my wife's portfolio from
LZEMX LZRD EMRG MKTS EQ IS $6972.73 1.08%
to VTMNX

The other option I have is
American Funds EuroPacific Growth Fund® Class R-6 RERGX ER 0.49%
You did not list Vanguard Developed Markets Index Fund Institutional (VTMNX) ER 0.06% as a fund offered in her work-based plan.

Please list the funds offered in her work-based plan. That may change my suggestion for the funds she could consider using.

Again please simply add this to your original post.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link:Getting Started

pkjr
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Re: Need some advice - self employed

Post by pkjr » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:25 am

Added - tks

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ruralavalon
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Location: Illinois

Re: Need some advice - self employed

Post by ruralavalon » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:51 pm

pkjr wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:05 am
Thank you..

what are your thoughts about exchanging in my wife's portfolio from
LZEMX LZRD EMRG MKTS EQ IS $6972.73 ER 1.08%
to VTMNX

The other option I have is
American Funds EuroPacific Growth Fund® Class R-6 RERGX ER 0.49%
Fund selection.

In my opinion these are the better funds to consider using in her 403b/401a:
1) Vanguard Institutional Index Fund (a S&P 500 index fund) (VINIX) ER 0.04%;
2) Vanguard Developed Markets Index Fund Institutional (VTMNX) ER 0.06%; and
3) Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Fund Institutional (VBTIX) ER 0.04%.

In selecting funds strive for a combination of broad diversification (to reduce risk) and low expense ratios (to increase your net gain). To simply and easily achieve those two goals I suggest choosing funds to simulate the very well diversified, low expense ratio "three-fund portfolio". Wiki article "Three-fund portfolio". Forum discussion, "The Three-Fund Portfolio".


Domestic stocks.
For domestic stocks I suggest using a total stock market index fund where available; otherwise an S&P 500 index fund (such as Vanguard Institutional Index Fund, VINIX, in her plan) is good enough by itself for domestic stocks. "In a 401(k) plan with limited choices one might very well opt for an S&P 500 index fund to serve as the domestic stock component of a three-fund portfolio." Wiki article, Three-fund portfolio, "Other considerations".

An S&P 500 index fund covers 81% of the U.S. stock market investing in stocks of selected large-cap and mid-cap U.S. companies, and in the 26 years since the creation of the first total stock market index fund the total return of the two types of funds has been almost identical. Morningstar, "growth of $10k" graph, VTSAX vs VFIAX. In the first 10 years the S&P 500 fund did better, in the last 10 years the total market fund did better, and over the 26 years the total market fund gave a little more return (0.11% per year), but at the cost of a little more volatility (risk): nisiprius post, in the forum discussion "Exchanging the S&P 500 for the TSM". See also Allan Roth, CBS Moneywatch, "John C. Bogle on the S&P 500 vs. the Total Stock Market". So it seems that adding a little in mid/small cap stocks trying to mimic the holdings of a total stock market fund has historically made little difference in performance.

If she wants to add the small-cap index fund, then an 82/18 mix of S&P 500 and small-cap will approximate the content of a total stock market index fund. Wiki article, "Approximating total stock market". In my opinion this is not necessary, it is optional if she prefers to do this.


International stocks.
As mentioned in selecting funds strive for both broad diversification and low expenses. Vanguard Developed Markets Index Fund Institutional (VTMNX) ER 0.06% clearly has the lowest expense ratio, so the question really becomes which fund has the better diversification.

Vanguard Developed Markets Index Fund Institutional (VTMNX) invests only in developed markets (which comprise about 82% of the total international market), and invests in stocks of 3,906 companies. It has by far the lowest expense ratio.

American Funds EuroPacific Growth Fund R6 (RERGX) ER 0.49% is a good actively managed fund, invests in both developed and emerging markets, investing in stocks of 278 different companies.

Lazard Emerging Markets Equity portfolio (LZEMX) ER 1.08% invests in emerging markets (which comprise about 18% of the total international market), and invests in stocks of 73 different companies. I would not even consider this fund because of its narrow focus and its high expense ratio.

I suggest using Vanguard Developed Markets Index Fund Institutional (VTMNX). In general I prefer a good index fund over a good actively managed fund. Although it does not include emerging markets, it is broadly diversified. It has by far the lowest expense ratio.


Bonds.
My preference in a bond fund (in addition to broad diversification and low expense ratio) is for intermediate-term with good credit quality.

Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Fund Institutional (VBTIX) ER 0.04% invests in 8557 different bonds of all durations, is on average intermediate-term with an average effective duration = 6.1 years, average credit quality = AA.

Dodge & Cox Income Fund (DODIX) ER 0.43% is a good actively managed fund, invests in 1062 different bonds, is intermediate-term with an average effective duration = 4.2 years, and an average credit quality = A.

I suggest using Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Fund Institutional (VBTIX) ER 0.04%. In general I prefer a good index fund over a good actively managed fund. The fund is more broadly diversified, and has the lower expense ratio.

. . . . .

Fund information is from Morningstar and Vanguard. Morningstar gives both average effective duration and average credit quality for bond funds, and the "portfolio" content for both bond and stock funds. On Vanguard you can compare most characteristics of any Vanguard fund to funds from other fund companies.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link:Getting Started

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