Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

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marcopolo
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Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by marcopolo » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:22 pm

My son asked for some advice today, and I am a bit torn about what to tell him.
I figured i would reach out here to see if some folks here have had similar situation with their kids.

Son is entering his senior year of an engineering program. He is in the last week of a summer internship. The company just made him an offer for full time employment starting next summer. He says he learned a lot and really liked his supervisor. But, the supervisor just resigned to take another job, so he will not know who he will be reporting to for a while.

They are asking for a decision by Sept 7. Son says he thought the job/industry was OK, but would not be his top one or two industries to go into.
He was planning to start the job search process next month when he gets back to school and the job fairs start. But, now he is unsure what to do.

He has very good grades from a very good engineering program. The current offer is about median level based on some surveys I have seen.
Given that it is so early in the school years, he is not completely excited about the company/industry, and the offer is not above average, my inclination is to tell him to ask for an extension, so he can perform a search for other opportunities.

Questions:
Would companies (it is a fairly large company) entertain such a request?

If not, does it make sense to turn this offer down? There is some risk he does not find anything as good as this one (much smaller risk, i think, of not finding anything).

I assume it would not be proper to accept the offer, but keep looking anyway? But, does company have same ethical obligation, if their business changes over the next year?
Last edited by marcopolo on Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

nyclon
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by nyclon » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:09 pm

marcopolo wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:22 pm
I assume it would not be proper to accept the offer, but keep looking anyway? But, does company have same ethical obligation, if their business changes over the next years?
If the company wants him to make a commitment this early on, there has to be an understanding that something could happen during this long period of time that may cause him to change his mind.

I would consider taking the offer and continuing to look.

If he were to change his mind after accepting, the risk of being on a blacklist exists. However, how large that risk is largely depends on how niche and/or large the company is. It simply may not be a big deal.

Employers employ folks at will. Meaning, they can fire you whenever they want by making up a reason.

Thegame14
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by Thegame14 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:16 pm

Cant he accept the offer, which doesn't start for a year, keep interviewing and if something better comes along he can then call the first job back and apologize and let them know he has taken another offer. Also he can use first offer to then have leverage on any new offers....

KyleAAA
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by KyleAAA » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:52 pm

What type of engineering student is he and what’s the demand? If he is a software engineer, for example, he has all the power and companies will do pretty much anything he wants if he performed well during the internship. If he majored in Mechanical Engineering that may not be the case. But I think it’s ethical in this case to accept and keep looking so long as he gives the company plenty of notice if he does end up reneging.

marcopolo
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by marcopolo » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:48 am

Thegame14 wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:16 pm
Cant he accept the offer, which doesn't start for a year, keep interviewing and if something better comes along he can then call the first job back and apologize and let them know he has taken another offer. Also he can use first offer to then have leverage on any new offers....
The concern i have with this approach is if new company he interviews with does an employment verification.

Say he accepts offer from Company A, keeps looking. Gets interview from company B that he really likes. Company B does basic employment verification and calls company A, who says "Yes, he worked here and he has accepted an offer to start next summer".

If you were in HR or the hiring manager in company B, would you extend an offer to a candidate that had accepted an offer already at another company?
It would give me pause as a hiring manager.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

marcopolo
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by marcopolo » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:51 am

KyleAAA wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:52 pm
What type of engineering student is he and what’s the demand? If he is a software engineer, for example, he has all the power and companies will do pretty much anything he wants if he performed well during the internship. If he majored in Mechanical Engineering that may not be the case. But I think it’s ethical in this case to accept and keep looking so long as he gives the company plenty of notice if he does end up reneging.
He is a Computer Engineer major, essentially SW engineer with some HW knowledge as well. Would like to do embedded SW development, with a focus on Signal Processing and/or Machine Learning. Hard to tell what the current demand is for new grads this year, as it is very early in the recruiting year.
See my other post above regarding concern with continuing to interview after accepting offer. Maybe this is expected for new grads, and i am just being old fashioned?
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

bampf
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by bampf » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:09 am

This is pretty standard hiring tactics. Presumably there are quite a few in the cohort and it is less about the individual hiring manager and more about the corp process. I don't know of any blacklists although perhaps the company he turns down wouldn't hire him again. If he can see working there, take the job. If something more exciting comes along (its a year away) then that's fine as well. It is all pretty standard. If he knows he will never work there, then don't waste anyone's time. Lots of demand for software devs.

soccerrules
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by soccerrules » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:24 am

A friend of my son living with us this summer just received an offer for next summer, after an internship. This continues to be a common practice.

I would have your son sit down and have a honest conversation with one of the production leaders. (not HR)

Explain that he enjoyed the internship and is honored to receive the offer. This is his first offer and he plans to conduct a formal job search process. (plus he has school to finish) Because this is a very important decision he will not be able to give an answer by early September.

He can suggest a future date (Jan 2019 ? Mar 2019?)
Or ask for a later date that would allow for him to consider his plans/desires.

I think this is a professional way to handle this. The company could reply and state that they need to know by Sept or a different date. Their answer may signal how the company operates and/or how strongly they feel about your son.

Best of luck
Don't let your outflow exceed your income or your upkeep will be your downfall.

KlangFool
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by KlangFool » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:29 am

soccerrules wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:24 am
A friend of my son living with us this summer just received an offer for next summer, after an internship. This continues to be a common practice.

I would have your son sit down and have a honest conversation with one of the production leaders. (not HR)

Explain that he enjoyed the internship and is honored to receive the offer. This is his first offer and he plans to conduct a formal job search process. (plus he has school to finish) Because this is a very important decision he will not be able to give an answer by early September.

He can suggest a future date (Jan 2019 ? Mar 2019?)
Or ask for a later date that would allow for him to consider his plans/desires.


I think this is a professional way to handle this. The company could reply and state that they need to know by Sept or a different date. Their answer may signal how the company operates and/or how strongly they feel about your son.

Best of luck
soccerrules,

+1.

This is a professional way to handle this. If they want him, they would honor this reasonable request.

KlangFool

marcopolo
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by marcopolo » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:35 am

soccerrules wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:24 am
A friend of my son living with us this summer just received an offer for next summer, after an internship. This continues to be a common practice.

I would have your son sit down and have a honest conversation with one of the production leaders. (not HR)

Explain that he enjoyed the internship and is honored to receive the offer. This is his first offer and he plans to conduct a formal job search process. (plus he has school to finish) Because this is a very important decision he will not be able to give an answer by early September.

He can suggest a future date (Jan 2019 ? Mar 2019?)
Or ask for a later date that would allow for him to consider his plans/desires.

I think this is a professional way to handle this. The company could reply and state that they need to know by Sept or a different date. Their answer may signal how the company operates and/or how strongly they feel about your son.

Best of luck
Thanks. This is exactly my thoughts on this. I wanted to get other perspectives, particularly from people that have been through the process recently. It does seem that accepting and continuing to look might be more acceptable than I had imagined. But, my son has also expressed hesitancy at doing that for ethical reasons. I would like to reinforce that notion.

He is trying to figure out who to have this conversation with, if that is the path he takes, since his direct supervisor has just recently resigned.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

stxman
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by stxman » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:48 am

I've had people back out of a job 1 week into their 2 week notice period. So I place no confidence in someone joining until they show up day 1. Accepting months out like this just seems crazy.

Also if he is into machine learning stuff, I'm guessing he will have multiple job offers to choose from when he actively enters the market.

soccerrules
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by soccerrules » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:54 am

marcopolo wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:35 am
soccerrules wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:24 am
A friend of my son living with us this summer just received an offer for next summer, after an internship. This continues to be a common practice.

I would have your son sit down and have a honest conversation with one of the production leaders. (not HR)

Explain that he enjoyed the internship and is honored to receive the offer. This is his first offer and he plans to conduct a formal job search process. (plus he has school to finish) Because this is a very important decision he will not be able to give an answer by early September.

He can suggest a future date (Jan 2019 ? Mar 2019?)
Or ask for a later date that would allow for him to consider his plans/desires.

I think this is a professional way to handle this. The company could reply and state that they need to know by Sept or a different date. Their answer may signal how the company operates and/or how strongly they feel about your son.

Best of luck
Thanks. This is exactly my thoughts on this. I wanted to get other perspectives, particularly from people that have been through the process recently. It does seem that accepting and continuing to look might be more acceptable than I had imagined. But, my son has also expressed hesitancy at doing that for ethical reasons. I would like to reinforce that notion.

He is trying to figure out who to have this conversation with, if that is the path he takes, since his direct supervisor has just recently resigned.
Maybe there is another similar level supervisor that he met that he can sit with or his supervisors boss. If not then maybe the internship director or recruiter.
Integrity is a honored virtue.
Don't let your outflow exceed your income or your upkeep will be your downfall.

Andyrunner
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by Andyrunner » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:17 am

Does he have the contact information of the recently resigned supervisor? Not only can he get advice from the former employee on how the company will approach the request, but he might be able to start networking with other companies and get an industry mentor.

If he is super lucky, the former supervisor will say hold on, I might have an opening for you with better pay.

The tough part is he is a entry level college grad, at least when I graduated in 2007, I was a dime a dozen, especially as the recession set in.The good news is that the company knows his work.

student
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by student » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:42 am

soccerrules wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:24 am
A friend of my son living with us this summer just received an offer for next summer, after an internship. This continues to be a common practice.

I would have your son sit down and have a honest conversation with one of the production leaders. (not HR)

Explain that he enjoyed the internship and is honored to receive the offer. This is his first offer and he plans to conduct a formal job search process. (plus he has school to finish) Because this is a very important decision he will not be able to give an answer by early September.

He can suggest a future date (Jan 2019 ? Mar 2019?)
Or ask for a later date that would allow for him to consider his plans/desires.

I think this is a professional way to handle this. The company could reply and state that they need to know by Sept or a different date. Their answer may signal how the company operates and/or how strongly they feel about your son.

Best of luck
Great advice.

KyleAAA
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by KyleAAA » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:46 am

marcopolo wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:51 am
KyleAAA wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:52 pm
What type of engineering student is he and what’s the demand? If he is a software engineer, for example, he has all the power and companies will do pretty much anything he wants if he performed well during the internship. If he majored in Mechanical Engineering that may not be the case. But I think it’s ethical in this case to accept and keep looking so long as he gives the company plenty of notice if he does end up reneging.
He is a Computer Engineer major, essentially SW engineer with some HW knowledge as well. Would like to do embedded SW development, with a focus on Signal Processing and/or Machine Learning. Hard to tell what the current demand is for new grads this year, as it is very early in the recruiting year.
See my other post above regarding concern with continuing to interview after accepting offer. Maybe this is expected for new grads, and i am just being old fashioned?
Demand for ML is skyhigh this year, I can confirm. My employer is ramping up university hiring already. Not sure about embedded, but with the proliferation of IoT I would thing it would be hot as well. If he's interested in relocating to the west coast he will get quite a few offers. And yes, the big tech companies expect and plan for a certain number of the university offers to renege.

feh
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by feh » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:58 am

This is a very personal decision.

I would recommend he take the offer. Going into senior year without having to look for a job is a wonderful position to be in. He can always look for better opportunities after he gets some real-world experience.

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Doom&Gloom
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by Doom&Gloom » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:04 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:29 am
soccerrules wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:24 am
A friend of my son living with us this summer just received an offer for next summer, after an internship. This continues to be a common practice.

I would have your son sit down and have a honest conversation with one of the production leaders. (not HR)

Explain that he enjoyed the internship and is honored to receive the offer. This is his first offer and he plans to conduct a formal job search process. (plus he has school to finish) Because this is a very important decision he will not be able to give an answer by early September.

He can suggest a future date (Jan 2019 ? Mar 2019?)
Or ask for a later date that would allow for him to consider his plans/desires.


I think this is a professional way to handle this. The company could reply and state that they need to know by Sept or a different date. Their answer may signal how the company operates and/or how strongly they feel about your son.

Best of luck
soccerrules,

+1.

This is a professional way to handle this. If they want him, they would honor this reasonable request.

KlangFool
+3 or 5 or whatever the number is by now.

I see no upsides to accepting now. Seems like very early "settling" to me. And the firm can certainly back out if it is to their advantage to do so.

Dottie57
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by Dottie57 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:14 pm

Doom&Gloom wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:04 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:29 am
soccerrules wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:24 am
A friend of my son living with us this summer just received an offer for next summer, after an internship. This continues to be a common practice.

I would have your son sit down and have a honest conversation with one of the production leaders. (not HR)

Explain that he enjoyed the internship and is honored to receive the offer. This is his first offer and he plans to conduct a formal job search process. (plus he has school to finish) Because this is a very important decision he will not be able to give an answer by early September.

He can suggest a future date (Jan 2019 ? Mar 2019?)
Or ask for a later date that would allow for him to consider his plans/desires.


I think this is a professional way to handle this. The company could reply and state that they need to know by Sept or a different date. Their answer may signal how the company operates and/or how strongly they feel about your son.

Best of luck
soccerrules,

+1.

This is a professional way to handle this. If they want him, they would honor this reasonable request.

KlangFool
+3 or 5 or whatever the number is by now.

I see no upsides to accepting now. Seems like very early "settling" to me. And the firm can certainly back out if it is to their advantage to do so.
I think it’s too early to decide. Let son have fun interviewing - which is a learning experience in and of itself.

marcopolo
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by marcopolo » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:24 pm

Andyrunner wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:17 am
Does he have the contact information of the recently resigned supervisor? Not only can he get advice from the former employee on how the company will approach the request, but he might be able to start networking with other companies and get an industry mentor.

If he is super lucky, the former supervisor will say hold on, I might have an opening for you with better pay.

The tough part is he is a entry level college grad, at least when I graduated in 2007, I was a dime a dozen, especially as the recession set in.The good news is that the company knows his work.
That is a great suggestion about getting his supervisor's take on this once he leaves. I will suggest that to my son. He seemed to have a very good relationship with him.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

DarkHelmetII
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by DarkHelmetII » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:10 pm

Doom&Gloom wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:04 pm
And the firm can certainly back out if it is to their advantage to do so.
In the early 2000's some professional services firms reneged on their offers as they did not have sufficient work to justify the large incoming classes they had extended offers to (post dot com bust). Just adding a tangible example to the above comment about the firm also being able to back out as well.
Last edited by DarkHelmetII on Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ladeedaw
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by Ladeedaw » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:24 pm

Doom&Gloom wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:04 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:29 am
soccerrules wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:24 am
A friend of my son living with us this summer just received an offer for next summer, after an internship. This continues to be a common practice.

I would have your son sit down and have a honest conversation with one of the production leaders. (not HR)

Explain that he enjoyed the internship and is honored to receive the offer. This is his first offer and he plans to conduct a formal job search process. (plus he has school to finish) Because this is a very important decision he will not be able to give an answer by early September.

He can suggest a future date (Jan 2019 ? Mar 2019?)
Or ask for a later date that would allow for him to consider his plans/desires.


I think this is a professional way to handle this. The company could reply and state that they need to know by Sept or a different date. Their answer may signal how the company operates and/or how strongly they feel about your son.

Best of luck
soccerrules,

+1.

This is a professional way to handle this. If they want him, they would honor this reasonable request.

KlangFool
+3 or 5 or whatever the number is by now.

I see no upsides to accepting now. Seems like very early "settling" to me. And the firm can certainly back out if it is to their advantage to do so.
+another. I'm an engineering manager, and for the past couple of years, it's been hard to find engineers to hire, even those with little to no experience. Your son has almost all of the leverage here. Companies are making offers to students early because the talent pool is small with respect to demand right now in almost all locations nationally and all engineering disciplines. If he handles it professionally as described, there is very little potential downside for him.

soccerrules
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by soccerrules » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:00 pm

DarkHelmetII wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:10 pm
Doom&Gloom wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:04 pm
And the firm can certainly back out if it is to their advantage to do so.
In the early 2000's some professional services firms reneged on their offers as they did not have sufficient work to justify the large incoming classes they had extended offers to (post dot com bust). Just adding a tangible example to the above comment about the firm also being able to back out as well.
Darkhelmet -- they way you formatted your quote makes it look like I (soccerrules) made the above comment-- for the record -- I did not. Please be careful when editing quotes-- thanks :happy

[Darkhelmet has fixed the quote. To avoid confusion, I'm updating it here. (Swap soccerrules for Doom&Gloom) --admin LadyGeek]
Don't let your outflow exceed your income or your upkeep will be your downfall.

London
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Re: Ask for extension or turn down job offer?

Post by London » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:02 pm

The division I'm responsible for makes many grad offers ever year. I expect that until the candidate is in the door, they will shop that offer looking for what's best for them. I have no problem with that and don't consider it unethical. I also wouldn't formally grant more time to a college student to decide. That's business to me.

In my view, he should accept and keep looking.

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