How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

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JoeRetire
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by JoeRetire » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:41 pm

VictoriaF wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:58 pm
JoeRetire wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:53 pm
VictoriaF wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:47 pm
a comprehensive healthy lifestyle protects from cancers and cardiovascular diseases.
Or not. Cancer seems to have a mind of its own.
My complete statement was:
VictoriaF wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:47 pm
While there are still no guarantees, a comprehensive healthy lifestyle protects from cancers and cardiovascular diseases.
Arguing with an extracted clause is poor etiquette.
I'll just argue with the word "protects" then.
I typed it with my pinkie in the air, so that it would be good etiquette.

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dual
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by dual » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm

adamthesmythe wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:34 pm
dual wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:21 pm
The presumption here seems to be that you absolutely must have medical insurance. What about self-insuring?

I am sure someone will immediately come up with some scenario where care for an illness costs millions.
Illnesses that will cost near a million to treat and will leave you with an expectation of a normal lifespan are not unusual. For example- the incidence of a bicuspid aorta is ~1%, and many with this condition will need (a very expensive) valve replacement. For most of us, going without insurance is making a bet with a considerable fraction of our net worth.
I do not know anything about that condition but a quick search indicates that it is congenital and uncommon for it to be asymptomatic. If you knew about it, then you could take it into account in your planning.

Also see https://www.medicaltourismco.com/mitral ... placement/
Mitral Valve Repair or Replacement Abroad: 12,000~20,000 US Dollars
{cardiac surgery quote covers all logistics and medical costs at destination}
India [Harvard Medical Affiliated & USA JCI Accredited Hospitals]
You need to know yourself. I started self-insuring when I became self-employed in my 40's. Prior to that I had insurance provided by my employers. By that time I knew I was blessed with good health and also had savings of well over $1 million. I never smoked, kept my weight under control, did regular exercise and did everything I could to avoid expensive medical care.

It is a gamble but even if you lose and are still alive then being on welfare and Medicaid does not seem that bad to me.

47Percent
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by 47Percent » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:34 pm

AlphaPilot wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:16 am

With all of this, is there any general number I should be using for say 15 to 20 years from now?
Any insight? Those who have been paying their own premium for several years - what have you noticed? Is it something that jumps all over or has it steadily raised with a certain percentage per year due to Age and Inflation?
In the US, there is no $ number that can guarantee health insurance, unless you are in some type of a group plan. ACA kind of created that for the insurance-poor, but as to any other poor, capitalism is not kind to those. So you are beholden to employment/employer/capital.


You say you are in mid-twenties but not clear if you are already married. If not, I would suggest, without a hint of irony, to be on the look out for a Australian/Canadian citizen romantic partner and future spouse. It may involve some wait-time, residency requirement etc. But still, that is the best backstop you can have.

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willthrill81
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by willthrill81 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:35 pm

Jordan4FI wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:16 pm
You could also move abroad (or medical travel) and be a thrifty ex-pat. It is the good life. Cheaper everyday medical issues and then just need to insure for big ticket stuff.. Here in Honduras, I can not even use my Insurance cause it it too cheap here.. 15$ Xrays, $300 MRI, 20$ dental cleaning..ext.. I just had back surgery in Costa Rica, now I did use my employer insurance, but if i didnt have it, it would have only been 10K. My same procedure in the US is 60K+
Thanks for the information. It's good to hear a 'boots on the ground' story about medical costs in lower cost of living areas.

Medical tourism certainly isn't a panacea for all ailments, but it can be part of a bigger strategy for reducing healthcare costs.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

47Percent
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by 47Percent » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:47 pm

I would suggest that we stay from discussing "Health Insurance Ministries" -- pro or con.

It is hard to discuss that with any level of details/facts without touching on Politics *and* Religion.

Even one of those topics will necessarily mean the end of the thread.

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willthrill81
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by willthrill81 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:58 pm

47Percent wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:47 pm
I would suggest that we stay from discussing "Health Insurance Ministries" -- pro or con.

It is hard to discuss that with any level of details/facts without touching on Politics *and* Religion.

Even one of those topics will necessarily mean the end of the thread.
It's unfortunate that it's become a bit of a hot button topic on the forum lately. They can be discussed without encroaching on politics or religion, but even the suggestion that someone just look into them really seems to grate on some people. This is despite the fact that PBS reported back in January that a million Americans are now participating in such ministries, up from 160k in 2014. It's my belief that an option with that many people participating in it at least deserves a mention.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

wrongfunds
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by wrongfunds » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:47 am

Isn't the real answer to OP's question is "NO YOU CAN NOT!" but that would be too easy. Unfortunately that IS THE answer even if OP or the rest of you don't like it. It is also given that there can be NO discussion about OP's question without invoking politics of future healthcare. We can beat around the bush as much as we want but that is the hard and plain truth.

I have also noticed simple and real answers are NOT generally appreciated because that is not helpful towards the forum's growth.

marcopolo
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by marcopolo » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:49 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:58 pm
47Percent wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:47 pm
I would suggest that we stay from discussing "Health Insurance Ministries" -- pro or con.

It is hard to discuss that with any level of details/facts without touching on Politics *and* Religion.

Even one of those topics will necessarily mean the end of the thread.
It's unfortunate that it's become a bit of a hot button topic on the forum lately. They can be discussed without encroaching on politics or religion, but even the suggestion that someone just look into them really seems to grate on some people. This is despite the fact that PBS reported back in January that a million Americans are now participating in such ministries, up from 160k in 2014. It's my belief that an option with that many people participating in it at least deserves a mention.
How many Americans use Edward Jones, or Ameriprise, or similar "financial advisor" because they trust the family member or "friend" that has been advising them for years?

Just because a lot of people do something seems like a very poor argument for recommending it. There may be other rational arguments, but "a million people can't be wrong" seems like a weak one.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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willthrill81
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by willthrill81 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:00 am

marcopolo wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:49 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:58 pm
47Percent wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:47 pm
I would suggest that we stay from discussing "Health Insurance Ministries" -- pro or con.

It is hard to discuss that with any level of details/facts without touching on Politics *and* Religion.

Even one of those topics will necessarily mean the end of the thread.
It's unfortunate that it's become a bit of a hot button topic on the forum lately. They can be discussed without encroaching on politics or religion, but even the suggestion that someone just look into them really seems to grate on some people. This is despite the fact that PBS reported back in January that a million Americans are now participating in such ministries, up from 160k in 2014. It's my belief that an option with that many people participating in it at least deserves a mention.
How many Americans use Edward Jones, or Ameriprise, or similar "financial advisor" because they trust the family member or "friend" that has been advising them for years?

Just because a lot of people do something seems like a very poor argument for recommending it. There may be other rational arguments, but "a million people can't be wrong" seems like a weak one.
I'm not at all saying that a million people can't be wrong. But considering that healthshare ministries have exploded in popularity over the last four years, I think it's worth telling people "This is something you may want to at least look at."

Some seem to be suggesting that we don't even discuss healthshare ministries, despite the fact that we discuss other 'hot button' topics like whole life insurance, financial advisors, Dave Ramsay, Social Security, etc. all the time.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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dm200
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by dm200 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:07 am

I'm not at all saying that a million people can't be wrong. But considering that healthshare ministries have exploded in popularity over the last four years, I think it's worth telling people "This is something you may want to at least look at."
Some seem to be suggesting that we don't even discuss healthshare ministries, despite the fact that we discuss other 'hot button' topics like whole life insurance, financial advisors, Dave Ramsay, Social Security, etc. all the time.
How do (or can) these "ministries" do (now and in the future) what they allege at a much lower cost/expense than health insurance?

marcopolo
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by marcopolo » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:18 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:00 am
marcopolo wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:49 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:58 pm
47Percent wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:47 pm
I would suggest that we stay from discussing "Health Insurance Ministries" -- pro or con.

It is hard to discuss that with any level of details/facts without touching on Politics *and* Religion.

Even one of those topics will necessarily mean the end of the thread.
It's unfortunate that it's become a bit of a hot button topic on the forum lately. They can be discussed without encroaching on politics or religion, but even the suggestion that someone just look into them really seems to grate on some people. This is despite the fact that PBS reported back in January that a million Americans are now participating in such ministries, up from 160k in 2014. It's my belief that an option with that many people participating in it at least deserves a mention.
How many Americans use Edward Jones, or Ameriprise, or similar "financial advisor" because they trust the family member or "friend" that has been advising them for years?

Just because a lot of people do something seems like a very poor argument for recommending it. There may be other rational arguments, but "a million people can't be wrong" seems like a weak one.
I'm not at all saying that a million people can't be wrong. But considering that healthshare ministries have exploded in popularity over the last four years, I think it's worth telling people "This is something you may want to at least look at."

Some seem to be suggesting that we don't even discuss healthshare ministries, despite the fact that we discuss other 'hot button' topics like whole life insurance, financial advisors, Dave Ramsay, Social Security, etc. all the time.
I am all for open, honest discussions. These ministries seem to be put forth when people ask about health insurance. They are not health insurance, that would a good place to start the discussion. Can they serve a purpose, sure for some people in some scenarios. But, I suspect many of those millions joining them may not even realize that they don't really have insurance coverage.

Just like we would do a dis-service to someone seeking a financial adviser to recommend they "look" at an Edward Jones representative, I think it is a similar dis-sercixe to tell someone looking for health insurance to look into sharing ministries, with out making it very clear that they are not health insurance.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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Pajamas
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by Pajamas » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:30 am

dual wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:21 pm
I am sure someone will immediately come up with some scenario where care for an illness costs millions. Well, those are exceedingly rare else no one could afford insurance.
No, they are actually not very rare. They occur on a regular basis. In fact, companies that provide health coverage generally reinsure against claims over $1 million. The ACA addressed some of the issues regarding reinsurance.

https://healthpayerintelligence.com/new ... ca-in-2018

Accepting the risk of health care costs may be appropriate for some people but don't underestimate the risks. Incorporate the expectation of claims for several hundred thousand dollars into your planning and if catastrophic coverage is available, at least consider it. The alternative is a potential double-whammy of bankruptcy or near-bankruptcy and disability. It's worth noting again that the number one cause of personal bankruptcy in the U.S. is medical expenses.
Last edited by Pajamas on Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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dual
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by dual » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:31 am

marcopolo wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:18 am

I am all for open, honest discussions. These ministries seem to be put forth when people ask about health insurance. They are not health insurance, that would a good place to start the discussion.
OK, let's have a discussion.
Why are they not health insurance?
What is your definition of health insurance?

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Pajamas
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by Pajamas » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:33 am

dual wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:31 am
marcopolo wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:18 am

I am all for open, honest discussions. These ministries seem to be put forth when people ask about health insurance. They are not health insurance, that would a good place to start the discussion.
OK, let's have a discussion.
Why are they not health insurance?
What is your definition of health insurance?
Why don't you ask an admin to break off this discussion into another thread since one already asked that the thread refocus on the question at hand as stated in the first post in the thread to avoid derailment?

Rupert
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by Rupert » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:34 am

dual wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:31 am
marcopolo wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:18 am

I am all for open, honest discussions. These ministries seem to be put forth when people ask about health insurance. They are not health insurance, that would a good place to start the discussion.
OK, let's have a discussion.
Why are they not health insurance?
What is your definition of health insurance?
The ministries themselves are very careful not to call their products "insurance." They are also very careful not to use other "insurance" terms, such as "premiums," "deductibles," etc. If they sold "insurance," they would be regulated by the states, and their products are not regulated by anybody.

As the prior poster noted, there are entire threads on these ministries you should read where these points have been debated ad nauseam.

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dual
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by dual » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:49 am

Pajamas wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:30 am
[
No, they are actually not very rare. They occur on a regular basis. In fact, companies that provide health coverage generally reinsure against claims over $1 million. The ACA addressed some of the issues regarding reinsurance.

https://healthpayerintelligence.com/new ... ca-in-2018

Accepting the risk of health care costs may be appropriate for some people but don't underestimate the risks. Incorporate the expectation of claims for several hundred thousand dollars into your planning and if catastrophic coverage is available, at least consider it. The alternative is a potential double-whammy of bankruptcy or near-bankruptcy and disability.
The website you cite states
The objective of reinsurance is to lower the cost of consumer premiums by using set funds to pay for the expenses of high-risk, high-cost enrollees.
OK, I will amend my statement to say that huge medical costs in people who are healthy in adulthood are rare. If you have an expensive health condition such as morbid obesity, AIDS, cancer, kidney failure, etc then obviously you should not try to self-insure.

Of course you are taking a risk. I stated as such. And you should consider catastrophic coverage. When low cost, high deductible policies became available with the introduction of Health Savings Accounts, I applied for and bought into them.

But my understanding is that the ACA has caused those policies to become much more expensive, less available and with poorer coverage than when I got one in the early 2000's. Witness the question in the OP. If the premiums are so high and the coverage so poor that they are affecting your ability to do as you wish then I think self-insurance is should be considered with open eyes as to the possible consequences.

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Pajamas
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by Pajamas » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:01 pm

dual wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:49 am

OK, I will amend my statement to say that huge medical costs in people who are healthy in adulthood are rare. If you have an expensive health condition such as morbid obesity, AIDS, cancer, kidney failure, etc then obviously you should not try to self-insure.
Health is not static. Anyone can incur huge medical costs at any time for a variety of reasons and regardless of the statistics, I don't think relatively large expenses are rare enough to unnecessarily accept the risk of incurring them unless someone has either next to nothing or else a huge amount of wealth.

The question here is how to plan for health insurance at a young age, not whether or not it is necessary.

epoxyresin
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by epoxyresin » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:14 pm

dm200 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:07 am


How do (or can) these "ministries" do (now and in the future) what they allege at a much lower cost/expense than health insurance?
As I understand it, there are several ways in which they cost less (in what I suspect is from higher to lower importance in keeping the costs lower than insurance, though I'm happy to be corrected on that count):

1) The people in them tend to be healthier than the insurance pool. They're not good fits for people with chronic conditions that cost lots of money (see below), they stress healthy living, you're not allowed to use tobacco, if you're fat you pay more and they assign someone to try to help you lose weight.

1b) The people in them undertake less risky behavior than the general population (and if you do undertake risky behavior and get sick from it, they likely won't pay for it). In addition to the tobacco prohibition, they require you to promise not to use illegal drugs, have sex outside of marriage, or drink excessively. They require you to use seatbelts in cars, and helmets on motorcycles.

2) There's lots of stuff they don't cover, or only cover in certain situations. No abortions obviously, but also no fertility treatment, and they limit how much they'll pay for pregnancies that are a result of IVF. I'm not sure what sorts, if any, of birth control they'll cover, but I imagine that is limited. No support for pregnancy if you're not married (unless as a result of rape). You only get testing or treatment for STDs if you acquire them in a way that they approve of (needle stick at work: OK, sex with your opposite-sex spouse: OK, sex outside of marriage: not OK, needle stick from using illegal drugs: not OK). Preexisting conditions they generally won't pay for (unless you've had it for a while without requiring treatment and been paying them for a while). They won't pay for medical care resulting from a suicide attempt. In general it seems like they'll only pay for a relatively limited amount of mental health care: there are plenty of people who like to talk to a therapist if their insurance will pay for most of it.
There's a limited amount of time that they'll cover your prescription drugs, so if you have an expensive chronic condition, it won't help you much (my impression is that they cover the drugs for long enough for you to make it to an ACA enrollment window, at which point you sign up for real insurance that can't deny your preexisting conditions).

3) They sometimes have rather low limits on how much they'll pay per incident, which sort of defeats the purpose of catastrophic 'insurance'. However, most of them have the option to pay not all that much more and get very high or unlimited per-incident coverage, so I don't think this is the main source of driving the price down.

4) They aren't regulated like insurance. It's at their discretion if they pay, and there's not much you can do if they don't. Some months, the money they have to pay out is more than the money being paid in, so those months people only get 90% (or something) of their medical bills covered (on the flip side, sometimes they take more money in, in which case you either get some of it back, or it goes to pay for people who didn't have their bills fully paid for in previous months). They don't have to keep money on hand to pay bills. They don't decide whether or not to pay until after you've already incurred the cost. This factor is I think what's most scary to a lot of Bogleheads.

The truth is, a lot of health costs are influenced by lifestyle factors, and these ministries have found a way to mostly pick out the people who lead a medically low-cost lifestyle. That's obviously not sustainable on a society-wide scale, but if you are someone who does have that lifestyle, and are of the correct religious persuasion, and are OK with not being able to sue if they don't pay, it might be worth at least taking a look at.

JoeRetire
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by JoeRetire » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:18 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:58 pm
a million Americans are now participating in such ministries, up from 160k in 2014. It's my belief that an option with that many people participating in it at least deserves a mention.
0.3% of the US population?

If that were the criterion, we should be discussing a lot of topics.

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willthrill81
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by willthrill81 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:59 pm

JoeRetire wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:18 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:58 pm
a million Americans are now participating in such ministries, up from 160k in 2014. It's my belief that an option with that many people participating in it at least deserves a mention.
0.3% of the US population?

If that were the criterion, we should be discussing a lot of topics.
Please read the totality of what I've said about healthshare ministries.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

marcopolo
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by marcopolo » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:31 pm

dual wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:31 am
marcopolo wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:18 am

I am all for open, honest discussions. These ministries seem to be put forth when people ask about health insurance. They are not health insurance, that would a good place to start the discussion.
OK, let's have a discussion.
Why are they not health insurance?
What is your definition of health insurance?

As Pajamas stated, there are other threads that cover this. So, I will try to answer real briefly without hopefully derailing the thread.

I am not the only one that says they are not health insurance. All the ministries themselves, will ready admit (usually in their FAQs) that they are not insurance. There is no contractual obligation to pay any of a members health expenses. Members help pay for other member's health expenses, and rely on faith that when they have expenses, the other members will help pay for theirs. In some (not all), members literally make their contributions directly to other members currently undergoing expenses. They are not regulated, and there is nowhere else to turn in cases where they might decide not to pay. Health insurance has contractual obligations, are regulated, with an independent place to appeal decisions.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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willthrill81
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by willthrill81 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:36 pm

marcopolo wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:18 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:00 am
marcopolo wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:49 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:58 pm
47Percent wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:47 pm
I would suggest that we stay from discussing "Health Insurance Ministries" -- pro or con.

It is hard to discuss that with any level of details/facts without touching on Politics *and* Religion.

Even one of those topics will necessarily mean the end of the thread.
It's unfortunate that it's become a bit of a hot button topic on the forum lately. They can be discussed without encroaching on politics or religion, but even the suggestion that someone just look into them really seems to grate on some people. This is despite the fact that PBS reported back in January that a million Americans are now participating in such ministries, up from 160k in 2014. It's my belief that an option with that many people participating in it at least deserves a mention.
How many Americans use Edward Jones, or Ameriprise, or similar "financial advisor" because they trust the family member or "friend" that has been advising them for years?

Just because a lot of people do something seems like a very poor argument for recommending it. There may be other rational arguments, but "a million people can't be wrong" seems like a weak one.
I'm not at all saying that a million people can't be wrong. But considering that healthshare ministries have exploded in popularity over the last four years, I think it's worth telling people "This is something you may want to at least look at."

Some seem to be suggesting that we don't even discuss healthshare ministries, despite the fact that we discuss other 'hot button' topics like whole life insurance, financial advisors, Dave Ramsay, Social Security, etc. all the time.
I am all for open, honest discussions. These ministries seem to be put forth when people ask about health insurance. They are not health insurance, that would a good place to start the discussion. Can they serve a purpose, sure for some people in some scenarios. But, I suspect many of those millions joining them may not even realize that they don't really have insurance coverage.

Just like we would do a dis-service to someone seeking a financial adviser to recommend they "look" at an Edward Jones representative, I think it is a similar dis-sercixe to tell someone looking for health insurance to look into sharing ministries, with out making it very clear that they are not health insurance.
What you're saying is the equivalent of saying that all financial advisors (i.e. an entire category) is bad. Clearly there are some sub-optimal financial advisors out there, to put it very mildly, but not that's not true of all. Are there some shady 'healthcare ministries' out there? I have no doubt that there are, but that's not true of all.

Healthshare ministries are not insurance, but it's indisputable that they at least have the potential to mitigate the risk of devastating healthcare costs, which is why people buy health insurance in the first place. No one wants medical insurance just to have medical insurance; they want it because of what it can do for them. Similarly, I don't want a cordless drill just to have a cordless drill; I want the ability to put holes into stuff when and where I want to. People don't want bonds; they want a relatively stable means of both protecting their principal and gaining more. And even though the terminology is legally required to be different, healthshare ministries at least have the potential to satisfy some of the same needs as medical insurance.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

marcopolo
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by marcopolo » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:58 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:36 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:18 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:00 am
marcopolo wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:49 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:58 pm


It's unfortunate that it's become a bit of a hot button topic on the forum lately. They can be discussed without encroaching on politics or religion, but even the suggestion that someone just look into them really seems to grate on some people. This is despite the fact that PBS reported back in January that a million Americans are now participating in such ministries, up from 160k in 2014. It's my belief that an option with that many people participating in it at least deserves a mention.
How many Americans use Edward Jones, or Ameriprise, or similar "financial advisor" because they trust the family member or "friend" that has been advising them for years?

Just because a lot of people do something seems like a very poor argument for recommending it. There may be other rational arguments, but "a million people can't be wrong" seems like a weak one.
I'm not at all saying that a million people can't be wrong. But considering that healthshare ministries have exploded in popularity over the last four years, I think it's worth telling people "This is something you may want to at least look at."

Some seem to be suggesting that we don't even discuss healthshare ministries, despite the fact that we discuss other 'hot button' topics like whole life insurance, financial advisors, Dave Ramsay, Social Security, etc. all the time.
I am all for open, honest discussions. These ministries seem to be put forth when people ask about health insurance. They are not health insurance, that would a good place to start the discussion. Can they serve a purpose, sure for some people in some scenarios. But, I suspect many of those millions joining them may not even realize that they don't really have insurance coverage.

Just like we would do a dis-service to someone seeking a financial adviser to recommend they "look" at an Edward Jones representative, I think it is a similar dis-sercixe to tell someone looking for health insurance to look into sharing ministries, with out making it very clear that they are not health insurance.
What you're saying is the equivalent of saying that all financial advisors (i.e. an entire category) is bad. Clearly there are some sub-optimal financial advisors out there, to put it very mildly, but not that's not true of all. Are there some shady 'healthcare ministries' out there? I have no doubt that there are, but that's not true of all.

Healthshare ministries are not insurance, but it's indisputable that they at least have the potential to mitigate the risk of devastating healthcare costs, which is why people buy health insurance in the first place. No one wants medical insurance just to have medical insurance; they want it because of what it can do for them. Similarly, I don't want a cordless drill just to have a cordless drill; I want the ability to put holes into stuff when and where I want to. People don't want bonds; they want a relatively stable means of both protecting their principal and gaining more. And even though the terminology is legally required to be different, healthshare ministries at least have the potential to satisfy some of the same needs as medical insurance.

I don't understand you equating it good vs. bad advisers. II never said anything about them being shady. I suspect they all mean well, but none of the health ministries have a contractual obligation to pay claims. Yes, lots of people have successfully funded their expenses that way, Lots of people have also done so using GoFundMe (nearly half of GoFundMe funds raised, ~$1B from 2010-2016, has been for medical expenses!). That does not make GoFundMe Health Insurance either.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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willthrill81
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by willthrill81 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:13 pm

marcopolo wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:58 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:36 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:18 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:00 am
marcopolo wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:49 am

How many Americans use Edward Jones, or Ameriprise, or similar "financial advisor" because they trust the family member or "friend" that has been advising them for years?

Just because a lot of people do something seems like a very poor argument for recommending it. There may be other rational arguments, but "a million people can't be wrong" seems like a weak one.
I'm not at all saying that a million people can't be wrong. But considering that healthshare ministries have exploded in popularity over the last four years, I think it's worth telling people "This is something you may want to at least look at."

Some seem to be suggesting that we don't even discuss healthshare ministries, despite the fact that we discuss other 'hot button' topics like whole life insurance, financial advisors, Dave Ramsay, Social Security, etc. all the time.
I am all for open, honest discussions. These ministries seem to be put forth when people ask about health insurance. They are not health insurance, that would a good place to start the discussion. Can they serve a purpose, sure for some people in some scenarios. But, I suspect many of those millions joining them may not even realize that they don't really have insurance coverage.

Just like we would do a dis-service to someone seeking a financial adviser to recommend they "look" at an Edward Jones representative, I think it is a similar dis-sercixe to tell someone looking for health insurance to look into sharing ministries, with out making it very clear that they are not health insurance.
What you're saying is the equivalent of saying that all financial advisors (i.e. an entire category) is bad. Clearly there are some sub-optimal financial advisors out there, to put it very mildly, but not that's not true of all. Are there some shady 'healthcare ministries' out there? I have no doubt that there are, but that's not true of all.

Healthshare ministries are not insurance, but it's indisputable that they at least have the potential to mitigate the risk of devastating healthcare costs, which is why people buy health insurance in the first place. No one wants medical insurance just to have medical insurance; they want it because of what it can do for them. Similarly, I don't want a cordless drill just to have a cordless drill; I want the ability to put holes into stuff when and where I want to. People don't want bonds; they want a relatively stable means of both protecting their principal and gaining more. And even though the terminology is legally required to be different, healthshare ministries at least have the potential to satisfy some of the same needs as medical insurance.

I don't understand you equating it good vs. bad advisers. II never said anything about them being shady. I suspect they all mean well, but none of the health ministries have a contractual obligation to pay claims. Yes, lots of people have successfully funded their expenses that way, Lots of people have also done so using GoFundMe (nearly half of GoFundMe funds raised, ~$1B from 2010-2016, has been for medical expenses!). That does not make GoFundMe Health Insurance either.
My point is that just because a product isn't insurance does not mean that it should even be mentioned when people are asking about health insurance. Healthshare ministries may be an option for some. Clearly in the case of the OP, he's looking for options.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Epsilon Delta
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by Epsilon Delta » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:02 am

wrongfunds wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:47 am
Isn't the real answer to OP's question is "NO YOU CAN NOT!" but that would be too easy. Unfortunately that IS THE answer even if OP or the rest of you don't like it.
+1

Any forecast should include some measure of precision, such as range, variance or a full distribution.

In this case the spread is so large that it is almost useless for planning purposes.
.

JoeRetire
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Re: How to plan for health insurance at a young age?

Post by JoeRetire » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:44 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:59 pm
JoeRetire wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:18 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:58 pm
a million Americans are now participating in such ministries, up from 160k in 2014. It's my belief that an option with that many people participating in it at least deserves a mention.
0.3% of the US population?

If that were the criterion, we should be discussing a lot of topics.
Please read the totality of what I've said about healthshare ministries.
I did. You just wrote "It's my belief that an option with that many people participating in it at least deserves a mention."

"That many people" is 0.3% of the population. There are lots of things having more than that percent of the population participating. That was my point.

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