https://investornews.vanguard/coming-in ... investors/In August, you’ll have access to almost all ETFs—from Vanguard and more than a hundred other companies—commission-free when you invest online. We’re excluding inverse and leveraged ETFs because their speculative nature runs counter to our investors’ focus on long-term success.
This lineup of nearly 1,800 commission-free ETFs joins the more than 2,500 no-transaction-fee mutual funds we already offer. And for investors using individual stocks and bonds to build diversified portfolios, we provide competitive commissions, with many investors paying as little as $2 for online stock trades.
Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
- Ever Ready
- Posts: 317
- Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:21 pm
- Location: DC metro
Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Thanks for the heads up! This is great.
-
- Posts: 12277
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:05 pm
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Nice. Should make for even more options for tax loss harvesting.
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
But of a surprise. All the others will have to do the same
-
- Posts: 9479
- Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:16 pm
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Hmm... I wonder if the list of non-Vanguard ETFs will include the popular iShares ETFs that people now buy through Fidelity. If so, I can see Fidelity losing a lot more business to Vanguard.
- oldcomputerguy
- Moderator
- Posts: 17934
- Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:50 am
- Location: Tennessee
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
I wonder if they will include SPDRs.
There is only one success - to be able to spend your life in your own way. (Christopher Morley)
-
- Posts: 827
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:36 pm
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
https://pressroom.vanguard.com/news/Pre ... 70218.htmlUpperNwGuy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:14 am Hmm... I wonder if the list of non-Vanguard ETFs will include the popular iShares ETFs that people now buy through Fidelity. If so, I can see Fidelity losing a lot more business to Vanguard.
...including ETFs from BlackRock, Schwab, and SSgA. The program will exclude highly speculative and complex ETFs 1.
looks like the only thing excluded are:
1.Commission-free trades will exclude inverse and leveraged ETFs.
-
- Posts: 4743
- Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:09 am
- Location: New Jersey, USA
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
I think this is part of the approach to push costs lower on all fronts... This is particularly interesting as it probably will cost Vanguard very little to implement (as they don't really attract the brokerage / trader customer first and foremost) but it could put a real bite in the fees for the other brokerages that do if they feel the need to respond in kind.
I can see this a step to ensure that expense ratios are real and not subsidized by other fees at other brokerage houses so the ER are comparable when looking at side-by-side comparisons.
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Wow. I am genuinely and pleasantly surprised.
I wonder what the rules will be on trading. Will they have the same permissive rule as Vanguard ETFs? (24 buys and 24 sells in the same ETF in the same account within 12 months leads to a 30-day suspension on purchases.) Or will they have short-term round-trip trading fees like many other brokerages?
It sounds like it will include all ETFs except "specialty" ETFs that don't fit into Vanguard's buy-and-hold philosophy. (If they included those, they could attract too many traders.)UpperNwGuy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:14 am Hmm... I wonder if the list of non-Vanguard ETFs will include the popular iShares ETFs that people now buy through Fidelity. If so, I can see Fidelity losing a lot more business to Vanguard.
I wonder what the rules will be on trading. Will they have the same permissive rule as Vanguard ETFs? (24 buys and 24 sells in the same ETF in the same account within 12 months leads to a 30-day suspension on purchases.) Or will they have short-term round-trip trading fees like many other brokerages?
-
- Posts: 9479
- Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:16 pm
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
I am trying to imagine the emergency meetings being conducted this morning at Fidelity, Schwab, Merrill, and TD Ameritrade. I'm sure it is no accident that Vanguard dropped this press release at the beginning of a popular vacation week when their competitors are operating at half staff in the executive suites.
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Ah, it's nice when feedback to Vanguard leads to implementation.
The costs and expenses to implement commissions are probably higher than any income that they get from commissions anyways.
This is also why Robinhood and M1 Finance are not going to survive in my opinion.
The costs and expenses to implement commissions are probably higher than any income that they get from commissions anyways.
This is also why Robinhood and M1 Finance are not going to survive in my opinion.
-
- Posts: 11259
- Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:39 pm
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Awesome! Only change for me is I’ll likely swap from VIOV to IJS, but this is a pretty big industry change up.
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Cool now I can buy LTPZ (hopefully)
RIP Mr. Bogle.
-
- Posts: 179
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:22 am
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
If they offer the following, I'll consider moving my Schwab accounts to Vanguard:
MDYV - State Street S&P 400 Mid-cap Value
SLYV - State Street S&P 600 Small-cap Value
FNDC - Schwab International Developed Markets Small Fundamental
FNDE - Schwab Emerging Market Fundamental
Curious as to what Vanguard would do with their S&P funds (excluding VOO S&P 500). For example, Vanguard offers VIOV (S&P 600 Small-cap Value) which has a paltry AUM and average along with a 20 bps exp. ratio compared to the identical State Street version SLYV which has a higher AUM and average daily volume along with a 15 bps exp. ratio. I guess we'll find out in August.
MDYV - State Street S&P 400 Mid-cap Value
SLYV - State Street S&P 600 Small-cap Value
FNDC - Schwab International Developed Markets Small Fundamental
FNDE - Schwab Emerging Market Fundamental
Curious as to what Vanguard would do with their S&P funds (excluding VOO S&P 500). For example, Vanguard offers VIOV (S&P 600 Small-cap Value) which has a paltry AUM and average along with a 20 bps exp. ratio compared to the identical State Street version SLYV which has a higher AUM and average daily volume along with a 15 bps exp. ratio. I guess we'll find out in August.
- triceratop
- Posts: 5838
- Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:20 pm
- Location: la la land
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Great news, sometimes non-Vanguard ETFs are more tax efficient so this is great. It was also annoying that some non-Vanguard brokerages were not allowing purchase of some Vanguard multi factor ETFs. This really changes the game.
The good news for me personally is that Merrill Edge will have to compete harder (or they think they will) to keep my business.
The good news for me personally is that Merrill Edge will have to compete harder (or they think they will) to keep my business.
"To play the stock market is to play musical chairs under the chord progression of a bid-ask spread."
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
I'm too lazy to read something that is too new, so may I ask if there are early redemption or frequent trading fees or nuances?
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Next tlh opportunity, moving from VBR to IJS and staying there
(AGE minus 23%) Bonds | 5% REITs | Balance 80% US (75/25 TSM/SCV) + 20% International (80/20 Developed/Emerging)
-
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:44 pm
- Location: New York for now.
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Maybe Ameritrade will go back to offering some Vanguard ETFs commission free.
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Early redemption fees are based on fund, so you'll have to read the prospectus of whatever ETF you're buying.
Frequent trading: I'll be surprised if that's not there. Vanguard prefers people buy and hold; so there will be usual restrictions to discourage frequent trading.
(AGE minus 23%) Bonds | 5% REITs | Balance 80% US (75/25 TSM/SCV) + 20% International (80/20 Developed/Emerging)
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Those aren't leveraged or inverse ETFs, so they will almost certainly be included.Jiu Jitsu Fighter wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:31 am If they offer the following, I'll consider moving my Schwab accounts to Vanguard:
MDYV - State Street S&P 400 Mid-cap Value
SLYV - State Street S&P 600 Small-cap Value
FNDC - Schwab International Developed Markets Small Fundamental
FNDE - Schwab Emerging Market Fundamental
Curious as to what Vanguard would do with their S&P funds (excluding VOO S&P 500). For example, Vanguard offers VIOV (S&P 600 Small-cap Value) which has a paltry AUM and average along with a 20 bps exp. ratio compared to the identical State Street version SLYV which has a higher AUM and average daily volume along with a 15 bps exp. ratio. I guess we'll find out in August.
I own a small amount of VIOV in taxable, mostly purchased last year. My average cost is $119.xx per share, and it's currently at $140.xx. So I'm going to be stuck with it for while.
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
I’ve been hesitant to use Vanguard for taxable brokerage accounts because I feel they have issues with record keeping along with other general issues. I’ve had money go “missing” for a period of time.
Anyone else have concerns?
Anyone else have concerns?
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
You sound like you are disappointed. I think most folks would not mind being stuck with it.
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Of course, I am concerned.
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Oh my, this is payback for TD Ameritrade dropping Vanguard ETFs in November, 2017 in favor of expensive spindex and sector ETFs and will hopefully kill off marketing agreements between ETF providers and brokerages. Vanguard should come out way ahead if other brokerages also respond with free trades. Another Vanguard initiated win for retail investors.
Warning: I am about 80% satisficer (accepting of good enough) and 20% maximizer
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Not really. I would prefer to be stuck by capital gains rather than to not have capital gains.
And VIOV has trivially outperformed SLYV despite having a 5 bp higher expense ratio. So there's no great desire to switch.
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Will Invesco QQQ be included? That's really the only non-VG ETF I would be interested in buying at this point in my taxable holding. That would be huge since Vanguard does not seem to offer a decent NASDAQ fund.
-TheDDV
-TheDDV
Rules to wealth building: 75-80% VTSAX piled high and deep, 20-25% VTIAX, 0% given away to banks.
- bzargarcia
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:40 am
- Location: San Antonio, Texas
More commission free ETFs coming to Vanguard
[merged into existing thread - moderator prudent]
FYI.
https://investornews.vanguard/coming-in ... investors/
FYI.
https://investornews.vanguard/coming-in ... investors/
Re: More commission free ETFs coming to Vanguard
That’s interesting. I wonder if IJS (Sp 600 SCV) will be on that list.
Are there good ETFs out there that aren’t vanguard based but still good for the index investor? I can’t imagine there’s that much unless you invest in active funds.
Are there good ETFs out there that aren’t vanguard based but still good for the index investor? I can’t imagine there’s that much unless you invest in active funds.
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
This is nice but as a Flagship member I get IIRC ~20 commision free trades per year. I have never come close to the limit.
-
- Posts: 12277
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:05 pm
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Ha, and probably a lot of meetings in the offices of Blackrock and State Street where guys are giving each other high fives.UpperNwGuy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:26 am I am trying to imagine the emergency meetings being conducted this morning at Fidelity, Schwab, Merrill, and TD Ameritrade. I'm sure it is no accident that Vanguard dropped this press release at the beginning of a popular vacation week when their competitors are operating at half staff in the executive suites.
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Not inverse or leveraged, so almost certainly.
- Dale_G
- Posts: 3466
- Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:43 pm
- Location: Central Florida - on the grown up side of 85
1800 Commission-Free ETFs
[Thread merged into here, see below. --admin LadyGeek]
From Vanguard:
Dale
From Vanguard:
It might make tax loss harvesting a little less costly,What you can look forward to
In August, you’ll have access to almost all ETFs—from Vanguard and more than a hundred other companies—commission-free when you invest online. We’re excluding inverse and leveraged ETFs because their speculative nature runs counter to our investors’ focus on long-term success.
This lineup of nearly 1,800 commission-free ETFs joins the more than 2,500 no-transaction-fee mutual funds we already offer. And for investors using individual stocks and bonds to build diversified portfolios, we provide competitive commissions, with many investors paying as little as $2 for online stock trades.
Dale
Volatility is my friend
- simplesimon
- Posts: 4578
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:53 pm
Re: 1800 Commission-Free ETFs
Nice bit of news, although I have purposely avoided converting my Vanguard admiral class funds to ETFs because I think I will trade more if I was in ETFs. Forced discipline so to speak. Am I leaving any free money on the table as a result?
Re: 1800 Commission-Free ETFs
Based on the announcement I saw it seems that we’ll need to wait until July to find out what ETFs are included. Unless anyone out there has seen a published list?
This definitely confirms that I will use Vanguard when I’m ready to start a taxable account.
This definitely confirms that I will use Vanguard when I’m ready to start a taxable account.
Patience is the ultimate hedge
-
- Posts: 9479
- Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:16 pm
Re: 1800 Commission-Free ETFs
I don't think so. The Vanguard press release says that they are removing fees from the non-Vanguard ETFs. The Vanguard ETFs to which you refer already enjoyed free trading.simplesimon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:47 pm Nice bit of news, although I have purposely avoided converting my Vanguard admiral class funds to ETFs because I think I will trade more if I was in ETFs. Forced discipline so to speak. Am I leaving any free money on the table as a result?
-
- Posts: 11259
- Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:39 pm
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
I thought I saw some examples of SLYV not managing capital return as well as VIOV and IJS. I’m cknsideeing holding IJS in taxable and VIOV in Roth now to keep ER lower while managing risk of the fund being closed and me getting taxed.Jiu Jitsu Fighter wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:31 am If they offer the following, I'll consider moving my Schwab accounts to Vanguard:
MDYV - State Street S&P 400 Mid-cap Value
SLYV - State Street S&P 600 Small-cap Value
FNDC - Schwab International Developed Markets Small Fundamental
FNDE - Schwab Emerging Market Fundamental
Curious as to what Vanguard would do with their S&P funds (excluding VOO S&P 500). For example, Vanguard offers VIOV (S&P 600 Small-cap Value) which has a paltry AUM and average along with a 20 bps exp. ratio compared to the identical State Street version SLYV which has a higher AUM and average daily volume along with a 15 bps exp. ratio. I guess we'll find out in August.
-
- Posts: 11259
- Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:39 pm
Re: More commission free ETFs coming to Vanguard
Some DFA options maybe. Small-value International is a VG hole which has some options out there. Microcap too.
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
concurlivesoft wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:37 am Ah, it's nice when feedback to Vanguard leads to implementation.
The costs and expenses to implement commissions are probably higher than any income that they get from commissions anyways.
This is also why Robinhood and M1 Finance are not going to survive in my opinion.
-
- Posts: 179
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:22 am
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Agreed. SLYV has had much more capital gains than VIOV or IJSin the past. I would hold SLYV in a tax-deferred account and IJS in a taxable account. For some reason, bogleheads eschew SLYV. Besides the capital gains, it's the lowest cost and tracks the index well with a decent amount of AUM and average daily trading volume.MotoTrojan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:18 pmI thought I saw some examples of SLYV not managing capital return as well as VIOV and IJS. I’m cknsideeing holding IJS in taxable and VIOV in Roth now to keep ER lower while managing risk of the fund being closed and me getting taxed.Jiu Jitsu Fighter wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:31 am If they offer the following, I'll consider moving my Schwab accounts to Vanguard:
MDYV - State Street S&P 400 Mid-cap Value
SLYV - State Street S&P 600 Small-cap Value
FNDC - Schwab International Developed Markets Small Fundamental
FNDE - Schwab Emerging Market Fundamental
Curious as to what Vanguard would do with their S&P funds (excluding VOO S&P 500). For example, Vanguard offers VIOV (S&P 600 Small-cap Value) which has a paltry AUM and average along with a 20 bps exp. ratio compared to the identical State Street version SLYV which has a higher AUM and average daily volume along with a 15 bps exp. ratio. I guess we'll find out in August.
Re: 1800 Commission-Free ETFs
I wonder how this gets paid for. Fund supermarket access fees by providers? Payment for order flow? Internalization, i.e. market-making (most likely)?
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
It'll be interesting to see if DFA funds will be in this list, especially since they're not inverse funds.. but DFA wants to only sell their funds through an advisor. That would be a disruptor if allowed!
(AGE minus 23%) Bonds | 5% REITs | Balance 80% US (75/25 TSM/SCV) + 20% International (80/20 Developed/Emerging)
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Robinhood has free individual stocks and crypto. Both these are popular among younger investors. Plus they have a slick app, which their users care about more (unlike typical Vanguard users). I don't think this is a threat to Robinhood any way, although Robinhood should be worried how easy it is for a larger player to replicate it's business model, and how easy it is for users to switch trading platforms.
(AGE minus 23%) Bonds | 5% REITs | Balance 80% US (75/25 TSM/SCV) + 20% International (80/20 Developed/Emerging)
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
This new policy only applies to ETFs. DFA does not offer any ETFs and is not likely to do so in the future (as you point out, if DFA offered an ETF they would not be able to limit purchases to those with approved advisors).walletless wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:42 pm It'll be interesting to see if DFA funds will be in this list, especially since they're not inverse funds.. but DFA wants to only sell their funds through an advisor. That would be a disruptor if allowed!
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
DFA has ETFs?walletless wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:42 pm It'll be interesting to see if DFA funds will be in this list, especially since they're not inverse funds.. but DFA wants to only sell their funds through an advisor. That would be a disruptor if allowed!
- Lieutenant.Columbo
- Posts: 1189
- Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:20 pm
- Location: Cicely AK
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
will (our current) IJS shares now appreciate with purchases by those Vanguard custoners who all along wanted to buy in but never did until now because IJS wasn't commission-free for them?
Edit to add:
Edit to add:
Last edited by Lieutenant.Columbo on Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lt. Columbo: Well, what do you know. Here I am talking with some of the smartest people in the world, and I didn't even notice!
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
Yes by proxy, they manage John Hancocks Multifactor ETFsNate79 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:53 pmDFA has ETFs?walletless wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:42 pm It'll be interesting to see if DFA funds will be in this list, especially since they're not inverse funds.. but DFA wants to only sell their funds through an advisor. That would be a disruptor if allowed!
JHMD Multifactor Developed International ETF
JHML Multifactor Large Cap ETF
JHMM Multifactor Mid Cap ETF
JHSC Multifactor Small Cap ETF
as well as several other sector ETFs.
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
I suppose this is good news. It will lower costs for ETF fans, and increase market-share at Vanguard... and I'll wager that qualifies as an increase in pay to Vanguard's employees eligible for the "partnership plan" bonuses.
I would also wager Mr.Bogle has mixed feelings about this, with a preference against people using esoteric ETFs and should focus on simply broad-based low-cost TIFs.
I would also wager Mr.Bogle has mixed feelings about this, with a preference against people using esoteric ETFs and should focus on simply broad-based low-cost TIFs.
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham
Re: 1800 Commission-Free ETFs
Sounds like a move by Vanguard to make their brokerage offering more attractive, sounds like a good deal, especially for those who follow a bogleheads methodology.
Of course I'm very curious to find out what Schwab and Fidelity will do to stay competitive.
Of course I'm very curious to find out what Schwab and Fidelity will do to stay competitive.
The closest helping hand is at the end of your own arm.
Re: 1800 Commission-Free ETFs
Good deal. Now Vanguard should sweeten the deal for Flagship clients. 25 free trades, which I used only a few trades, now is not as much value. My vote would be bring back free TurboTax.
Best Wishes, SpringMan
Re: Vanguard to offer non-Vanguard ETFs commission-free
I merged Dale_G's thread into the on-going discussion.