At what point to buy new car for safety

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lthenderson
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by lthenderson » Tue May 23, 2017 9:37 am

I test drove a new car with all the newest safety features earlier this year and found it completely distracting and annoying, especially the lane departure warning and intervention systems. With narrow roads and curves, I found it signalling quite often when I wasn't in any danger of leaving my lane. Also, there are sometimes good reasons for departing a lane like swerving around road debris and having it hit the brakes as well potentially causing someone behind me to run up on me didn't really feel "safe".

Also, do people who feel like they must have cars with the latest safety features also only buy new houses with the latest and greatest? Are all your electrical outlets upgraded to the tamper resistant GFI models because they are arguably safer than the older styles? How about ungrounded outlets? Do you only work at the most modern of job sites? There are probably a hundred example of other areas in our lives that have had safety improvements made to them but don't seem to worry us nearly as much as cars do.

dbr
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by dbr » Tue May 23, 2017 9:44 am

lthenderson wrote:I test drove a new car with all the newest safety features earlier this year and found it completely distracting and annoying, especially the lane departure warning and intervention systems. With narrow roads and curves, I found it signalling quite often when I wasn't in any danger of leaving my lane. Also, there are sometimes good reasons for departing a lane like swerving around road debris and having it hit the brakes as well potentially causing someone behind me to run up on me didn't really feel "safe".

Also, do people who feel like they must have cars with the latest safety features also only buy new houses with the latest and greatest? Are all your electrical outlets upgraded to the tamper resistant GFI models because they are arguably safer than the older styles? How about ungrounded outlets? Do you only work at the most modern of job sites? There are probably a hundred example of other areas in our lives that have had safety improvements made to them but don't seem to worry us nearly as much as cars do.
I like all those gimmicks, but we didn't go out and get a new car for that reason. We got a new car because the old one was worn out. I'm just as happy to have a car with improved safety capability, but that is not the motivator for making the purchase. As far as outlets, we have some upgraded outlets and more that are not. Our lighting is about 95% LED because it is a lot easier to not have to keep changing bulbs, especially the ones in awkward places, and the quality of the light is better. Referring to another thread, we had all our concrete work replaced a couple of years ago but we don't pressure wash the stuff.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by stoptothink » Tue May 23, 2017 9:46 am

lthenderson wrote:I test drove a new car with all the newest safety features earlier this year and found it completely distracting and annoying, especially the lane departure warning and intervention systems. With narrow roads and curves, I found it signalling quite often when I wasn't in any danger of leaving my lane. Also, there are sometimes good reasons for departing a lane like swerving around road debris and having it hit the brakes as well potentially causing someone behind me to run up on me didn't really feel "safe".

Also, do people who feel like they must have cars with the latest safety features also only buy new houses with the latest and greatest? Are all your electrical outlets upgraded to the tamper resistant GFI models because they are arguably safer than the older styles? How about ungrounded outlets? Do you only work at the most modern of job sites? There are probably a hundred example of other areas in our lives that have had safety improvements made to them but don't seem to worry us nearly as much as cars do.
I've read several articles suggesting most people actually turn off many of these safety systems, especially lane departure.

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William4u
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by William4u » Tue May 23, 2017 10:22 am

It is worth noting that the risk of serious injury is many times the risk of death. Insurance companies expect the average driver to be at fault in an accident once every 17.9 years. Aaaand...
  • 1. You have a one in four chance of being in some kind of auto accident within any five year period of time.
    2. You have a 30% chance of being in a serious car crash in your life.
    3. You have one chance in 98 of dying in an auto accident in your lifetime.
Those are some sobering statistics, and it highlights the risks involved with driving.
http://insurancepolicy789.blogspot.com/ ... rance.html
http://traveltips.usatoday.com/air-trav ... -1581.html
http://www.bdjinjurylawyers.com/car-acc ... awyer.aspx
https://www.quora.com/How-often-do-the- ... -accidents

ThankYouJack
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by ThankYouJack » Tue May 23, 2017 11:32 am

lthenderson wrote:I test drove a new car with all the newest safety features earlier this year and found it completely distracting and annoying, especially the lane departure warning and intervention systems. With narrow roads and curves, I found it signalling quite often when I wasn't in any danger of leaving my lane. Also, there are sometimes good reasons for departing a lane like swerving around road debris and having it hit the brakes as well potentially causing someone behind me to run up on me didn't really feel "safe".
What car was it? Did you ask the salesman about turning it off?

It is annoying when mine beeps (the beep is suppose to be annoying and alerting) but it hardly ever beeps unless I'm swerving or don't use a blinker when I should have. I'm sure I could turn off the warnings too, but I would rather have it beep every once in a while when I'm driving poorly.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by Constant Chaos » Tue May 23, 2017 12:01 pm

lthenderson wrote:I test drove a new car with all the newest safety features earlier this year and found it completely distracting and annoying, especially the lane departure warning and intervention systems. With narrow roads and curves, I found it signalling quite often when I wasn't in any danger of leaving my lane. Also, there are sometimes good reasons for departing a lane like swerving around road debris and having it hit the brakes as well potentially causing someone behind me to run up on me didn't really feel "safe".

.
I agree, the lane departure warnings are extremely annoying and oversensitive. I have a 2016 car with it, and you are exactly correct--on all the winding and curvy roads I drive on daily the system goes berserk for no reason! I hate the lane departure and would readily turn it off, but alas! It is bundled up with the blind spot alert, which I unfortunately adore and have never had any problems with (had it on old Volvo too for many years, along with the back up alert. Both great safety features IMO). I am bringing the new car into the dealership service specifically to ask the techs if the lane departure can be disabled while leaving the blind spot on, somehow!

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by Big Dog » Tue May 23, 2017 12:12 pm

in answer to the original question: never.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by iamlucky13 » Tue May 23, 2017 12:17 pm

People don't drive like idiots when they are given safer cars. They keep on driving the same way they always have (and yes people have always driven like idiots).
And this is a big part of my point. Even people who don't drive like genuine idiots usually have numerous ways they can improve their driving if they're constructively self-critical, and that's where the biggest improvements in safety are likely to come from.
So the question is are you safer driving the way you do in a car with VSC or one without?
I guess part of the reason I keep jumping back into the discussion is because that's not actually the question. The question is whether the change in safety alone is worth the cost, which based on your closing comment, I suppose at this point we've both said what we need to, because it seems like we're talking past each other and making mostly the same points:
So is a 1/3 death reduction worth it? If it was free, everyone would say it is worth it. Is it worth 1k/year? Depends on how much 1k is worth to you.

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lthenderson
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by lthenderson » Tue May 23, 2017 1:13 pm

ThankYouJack wrote:
lthenderson wrote:I test drove a new car with all the newest safety features earlier this year and found it completely distracting and annoying, especially the lane departure warning and intervention systems. With narrow roads and curves, I found it signalling quite often when I wasn't in any danger of leaving my lane. Also, there are sometimes good reasons for departing a lane like swerving around road debris and having it hit the brakes as well potentially causing someone behind me to run up on me didn't really feel "safe".
What car was it? Did you ask the salesman about turning it off?
It was either a Honda Civic or Accord. I test drove both while killing time waiting for my Odyssey to get some scheduled maintenance done. He did say it could be turned off but that would kind of defeat the purpose of buying a car for the safety features. I fall into the camp of I will buy a car with better safety features when it is time to replace my old one but I don't feel it is worth it to buy a new car simply because of the safety features.
Last edited by lthenderson on Wed May 24, 2017 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

psteinx
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by psteinx » Tue May 23, 2017 1:51 pm

I agree that lane keeping beeps/buzzes/vibrations may not be especially desirable, among newer safety features.

I'd suspect that, in general, they can be turned off or down or whatnot.

But OTOH, I think auto-braking is, in theory, a fabulous feature (assuming it works reasonably well).

And even beeping at you when you're approaching something too fast is a solid feature too, assuming it's not overly sensitive or you can control the sensitivity to a decent extent.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by Jags4186 » Tue May 23, 2017 1:53 pm

Big Dog wrote:in answer to the original question: never.
Bingo. I'll let everyone else buy cars that have lane departure and auto braking and beeps and boops and whatever else everyone here thinks is important. That way I don't have to worry about other's crashing into me. My newest car (Honda Civic LX) came standard with a backup camera. That is some fancy technology and great for fitting in those tight parking spaces.

It's really nice of everyone else to spend $1000-$5000 on safety options just to keep me safe.

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telemark
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by telemark » Tue May 23, 2017 2:11 pm

randomguy wrote:People don't drive like idiots when they are given safer cars. They keep on driving the same way they always have (and yes people have always driven like idiots).
The idea is formally known as risk compensation, with a stronger version called risk homeostatis. See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

As you might expect, this is difficult to measure precisely, but there are studies indicating that drivers of cars with ABS follow more closely than drivers of cars without ABS (there might be confounding factors, I don't know). See the references in the Wikipedia article for details.
I think you are a bit delusional if you think that driving skill is a replacement for VSC. People just aren't that good at reacting to sudden changes from loss of traction.
The skill is in driving so as not to lose traction in the first place.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by randomguy » Tue May 23, 2017 3:37 pm

telemark wrote: The skill is in driving so as not to lose traction in the first place.
The problem is that isn't possible. If you are driving on a highway with ice/rain, you run the risk of hydroplaning or sliding. It is unavoidable. Driving slower makes it more recoverable but you are still losing traction.

Every safety tech for the past 50+ years has had people talk about how it isn't needed. Heck we still have like 10% of the population who think seat belts aren't needed. The data suggests all those people are wrong. When to pay for safety is much, much harder to say. You can think of it as a type of life insurance. Your odds of needing it are <1%, but if you do you will really appreciate it. People have drastically different opinions on how much to pay for insurance. Personally I buy a safe car every 150k miles or so. But I am not saying that is optimal or not.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by ThankYouJack » Tue May 23, 2017 3:48 pm

lthenderson wrote:
Also, do people who feel like they must have cars with the latest safety features also only buy new houses with the latest and greatest?
I don't need the latest and greatest, but want my house to be a bit more secure than most of my neighbors. I want my bank and online personal info to be more secure than most people on the web. There's some great, very cheap technology to help with both of these and like the car tech, they add some convenience.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by bluebolt » Tue May 23, 2017 5:25 pm

Oddly enough, one of the biggest influences on me driving more safely is my dashcam. After I got one, I felt like I needed to drive more safely since everything was being recorded. I'm sure it doesn't have that impact on everyone, but it was an unintended positive side effect.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by jharkin » Tue May 23, 2017 5:26 pm

ThankYouJack wrote:
jharkin wrote:
The majority of other drivers I see on the road today dont do any of this, so sadly many do need these active safety systems to save them from their own carelessness. But if we just trained our drivers well in this country then so much of this could be avoided to begin with. Then its down to the freak event, the 300 car black ice pileup or the tractor trailer that suffers a blowout and jacknifes that you cant predict and that's where your seatbelts, airbags, crumple zones, roll cages, etc hope to mitigate the damage.
I think people know the rare odds and feel invisible and think they're better drivers than they actually are. So they drive more aggressively, text and drive, drink and drive, etc because they feel it will never happen to them. I actually feel a ton safer driving in this country than all the third world countries I've been to. I'm not sure if there's any correlation but in my experience it seems like the poorer the country, the scarier it is to be on the roads.
Its funny you mention that. Ive been to China and India and I can relate.... riding in a car in India felt like taking my life in my hands every trip. China is a bit better. Heck even the drivers in some European countries (*cough* italy *cough*) are nuts....

ThankYouJack
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by ThankYouJack » Tue May 23, 2017 7:07 pm

Obviously not all of the high tech safety features are created equal, but a quick google search and it seems like Tesla is doing a very good job:

Tesla’s crash rate was reduced by 40% after introduction of Autopilot based on data reviewed by NHTSA
https://electrek.co/2017/01/19/tesla-cr ... lot-nhtsa/

Here's a video showing it in action like this (the driver at 0:16 sure could have used auto-braking, amazing how a small car could roll an SUV like that):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rphN3R6KKyU

Other videos show things like animals that can hardly be seen running out into the road at night.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by iamlucky13 » Tue May 23, 2017 7:48 pm

randomguy wrote:
telemark wrote: The skill is in driving so as not to lose traction in the first place.
The problem is that isn't possible. If you are driving on a highway with ice/rain, you run the risk of hydroplaning or sliding. It is unavoidable. Driving slower makes it more recoverable but you are still losing traction.
It is almost always avoidable. With extremely rare exceptions, driving slower prevents losing traction. At low enough speeds, you do not generate the lift to hydroplane, and even when hydroplaning or on ice, you still need a net force on the vehicle to lose control.

One such rare exception I've encountered is a mountain pass in our area where for unknown reasons, the road was built with the curves banked at least sufficient to keep lateral forces roughly neutral at 60+ mph.

That means at the lower speeds necessary when there is heavy snow on the road, the condition a mountain pass road should be designed for, you're making a cross-slope traverse, so there is a constant external force. Even that is normally manageable, but on one particular night that began slushy and then froze as the temperature dropped, the resulting chunks of ice kept kicking the car every which way even with chains on.

Actually, even then it was possible to stay in control by slowing down to a painful crawl even by icy road standards. That was a long, torturously slow trip, and my response was to keep my distance from other cars, and if in doubt, move to the side of the road and stop to let others pass.

My main problem remained dodging the other cars getting themselves in trouble. The diciest moment was when a shiny new BMW in front of me that I'm sure had every gadget available applied too much power, lost traction, and starting to slide backwards towards us. I very slowly was able edge my way uphill out of his way as he slid to the shoulder, but for a moment, I thought he was going to trap us on the downhill side of the road, and we'd get to spend the night in the car. I pulled over to check on the BMW occupants and help them get their car to a safe spot to wait for assistance, and ended up helping a few other people get their chains on, too.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by PeterWander8 » Tue May 23, 2017 9:52 pm

ok, for what it's worth - my X5 had collision avoidance and better (surround) parking camera. So it already saved me from 2 fender benders, and one back up collision issue. the adaptive cruise control has helped me on highway driving to and fro work
so maybe it's not just safety - but fender benders are expensive, both on repairing and your insurance costs.

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steve roy
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by steve roy » Tue May 23, 2017 11:08 pm

Here was my point:

Two years ago, I was privileged to total my 7-month-old Jetta when I plowed it into the side of a tree.

After a day's reflection, I decided it was time to lease a Subaru Forester with all the safety accoutrements: Eyesight, automatic braking, etc. etc.

I'm proud to report I haven't attempted to become one with a tree since. So for me, the best point to buying a new car for safety was when I slammed into that hardwood trunk.

Thanks for asking.

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lthenderson
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by lthenderson » Wed May 24, 2017 8:24 am

jharkin wrote:
ThankYouJack wrote:
jharkin wrote:
The majority of other drivers I see on the road today dont do any of this, so sadly many do need these active safety systems to save them from their own carelessness. But if we just trained our drivers well in this country then so much of this could be avoided to begin with. Then its down to the freak event, the 300 car black ice pileup or the tractor trailer that suffers a blowout and jacknifes that you cant predict and that's where your seatbelts, airbags, crumple zones, roll cages, etc hope to mitigate the damage.
I think people know the rare odds and feel invisible and think they're better drivers than they actually are. So they drive more aggressively, text and drive, drink and drive, etc because they feel it will never happen to them. I actually feel a ton safer driving in this country than all the third world countries I've been to. I'm not sure if there's any correlation but in my experience it seems like the poorer the country, the scarier it is to be on the roads.
Its funny you mention that. Ive been to China and India and I can relate.... riding in a car in India felt like taking my life in my hands every trip. China is a bit better. Heck even the drivers in some European countries (*cough* italy *cough*) are nuts....
While I've only been to a few third world countries, I have a slightly different reaction. While I don't feel as safe just due to the poor condition most vehicles are in, I actually feel that the drivers are often better in third world countries that many modern countries. I rarely see examples of road rage or aggression. Drivers seem to be more at ease and drive much more in tune with the conditions than drivers here in the U.S. I've found myself many times in the back seat of a vehicle in a third world country pondering how the driver wasn't upset (or honked his horn) at the rice farmer that just crossed the road with his water buffalo forcing the driver to stop and wait for the buffalo to move out of the way.

RRAAYY3
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by RRAAYY3 » Wed May 24, 2017 9:09 am

I drove a 99 sonata into the ground, with the last straw being a cold winter night and for whatever reason my driver's side door would not close/latch shut.

that was a fun ride home

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by ThankYouJack » Wed May 24, 2017 9:11 am

lthenderson wrote:
jharkin wrote:
ThankYouJack wrote:
jharkin wrote:
The majority of other drivers I see on the road today dont do any of this, so sadly many do need these active safety systems to save them from their own carelessness. But if we just trained our drivers well in this country then so much of this could be avoided to begin with. Then its down to the freak event, the 300 car black ice pileup or the tractor trailer that suffers a blowout and jacknifes that you cant predict and that's where your seatbelts, airbags, crumple zones, roll cages, etc hope to mitigate the damage.
I think people know the rare odds and feel invisible and think they're better drivers than they actually are. So they drive more aggressively, text and drive, drink and drive, etc because they feel it will never happen to them. I actually feel a ton safer driving in this country than all the third world countries I've been to. I'm not sure if there's any correlation but in my experience it seems like the poorer the country, the scarier it is to be on the roads.
Its funny you mention that. Ive been to China and India and I can relate.... riding in a car in India felt like taking my life in my hands every trip. China is a bit better. Heck even the drivers in some European countries (*cough* italy *cough*) are nuts....
While I've only been to a few third world countries, I have a slightly different reaction. While I don't feel as safe just due to the poor condition most vehicles are in, I actually feel that the drivers are often better in third world countries that many modern countries. I rarely see examples of road rage or aggression. Drivers seem to be more at ease and drive much more in tune with the conditions than drivers here in the U.S. I've found myself many times in the back seat of a vehicle in a third world country pondering how the driver wasn't upset (or honked his horn) at the rice farmer that just crossed the road with his water buffalo forcing the driver to stop and wait for the buffalo to move out of the way.
Which countries? I've been to been to numerous in the Caribbean, Europe, all three in N. America - including most major US cities, and Nicaragua. Nica was by far the worst followed by the poorer Caribbean countries. You basically have two options getting around the cities - drive super aggressively or don't drive at all. I think I'd rather drive around Boston blind folded.

wrongfunds
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by wrongfunds » Wed May 24, 2017 10:45 am

I think the claim was that drivers in 3rd world countries are much better at driving. Because if they are not, they get weeded out extremely fast! Try blasting through with only two inches of room on the either side of the vehicle.

Seriously, do you think self-driving Google or Tesla could drive on a typical jam packed Mumbai road? It will be paralyzed and will give up in the middle of the road! Without a native driver, you will not go even a single mile.

Ergo, 3rd world drivers are smarter than Google/Tesla who we have already agreed are smarter than average US driver.

QED :-)

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lthenderson
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by lthenderson » Wed May 24, 2017 10:58 am

ThankYouJack wrote:Which countries? I've been to been to numerous in the Caribbean, Europe, all three in N. America - including most major US cities, and Nicaragua. Nica was by far the worst followed by the poorer Caribbean countries. You basically have two options getting around the cities - drive super aggressively or don't drive at all. I think I'd rather drive around Boston blind folded.
Mostly southeast Asian countries. I've spent the most time in the Philippines and the lack of signage, road markings and police (except for the occasional shakedown traffic stop) always amazes me. Leaving Manila, the four lane turnpike (assuming since lack of lane markings) becomes about ten lanes. If there happens to be no oncoming traffic it is ten lanes going the way I'm going. If there is oncoming traffic, it can squeeze down to single land as drivers adjust. In my eyes it is quite chaotic but watching the drivers I hire (to prevent me from getting shook down for money by corrupt cops), they are quite at ease with the situation and I rarely see flashes of anger or revenge that one would most definitely see if the situation were mirrored here in the United States. A hundred mile trip there might take six hours and involve lots of passing slow moving traffic to local farmers drying their rice crop in the road and they never seem to get worked up about it. It's all they know which probably proves that road rage is learned behavior for the most part.

On a side note but somewhat related, on my first trip there, the driver was repeatedly honking as we made our way through the night. I for the life of me couldn't figure out what he was honking at and finally asked. It turned out that he honks before crossing bridges to ward off evil spirits. But honking to show displeasure didn't seem to ever cross his mind.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by sitruban » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:58 am

I am not sure whether buying one new car with advanced safety features is really safe,if you have an older car without the same features.

I noticed that when I reverse on my older car, I look down at the dashboard(expecting to see the rear view camera), when it does not actually have one. While this is fine, I am worried about cases where I buy a new car with blind spot monitor and become so used to the blind spot monitor, that I do not turn back to check blind spots when I am driving an older car, that does not have a blind sport monitor,:).

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by Dandy » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:38 am

If you can afford it go for a safer car. Not necessarily a new car. Many 2 or 3 year old cars have nice safety features especially compared to one 10 years old. But, many new cars have amazing safety features. I think the old frugal drive the car until it dies or gets 200k miles is out of date -- for those that can afford safer alternatives. The risk to health for you and family and the expense/hassle of even minor accidents is not worth it.

When I am parked between 2 huge SUVs and back up I sure wish I had my friends cross traffic feature on the back up camera. You not only can see cross traffic it gives a warning beep. Instead I have to slowly ease out and hope any oncoming is watching. I wish the girl who rear ended my car last month had automatic braking. Lost use of car for several weeks.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by Lynette » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:18 am

This is not a new safety feature but I would never again buy any vehicle without a backup beeper. I live on a narrow street with a lot of construction. Houses are being torn and replaced with mansions. In addition in the summer there are always a large number of vehicles doing lawn and landscaping services. Sometimes I can hardly get out of my driveway as there are trucks in front of my house and both sides of the road where I exit my driveway. Even with a backup camera, I cannot see when a vehicle suddenly decides to come down the road at a high speed. Even if I turn my head to look I cannot see a vehicle that appears suddenly out of nowhere.

My new CUV beeps like crazy when this happens. I also had a Taurus and did not realize how massive it was. Now I have a midsize CUV that is easier to park and fits into my garage much easier. The display for the backup camera is also much larger.

I would not buy a new car for the other safety features but I do like the blind spot warning.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by afan » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:00 am

Just remember that it takes years of real world data with each new safety feature to figure out the extent to which it actually reduces the risk of death. Some new features turn out to contribute little if anything. The fact that car makers thought it would be helpful and included it does not mean that is true.

Results of test car crashes provide data on the likelihood of injury given that a crash has occurred. These are useful in choosing a car.

Real world fatality data tells you the actual risk if you drive in a way typical of owners of that make and model car. They do not and cannot account for differences in driver behavior. But driver behavior is a huge factor. Males are consistently much more likely to die in accidents than are females. Speeding is a major contributor. But men who speed, I suspect, would claim that they are excellent drivers.

Beyond that things get speculative. Giving cars credit for safety features whose contributions have not been demonstrated could be highly misleading. Once upon a time there was excitement that daytime running lights would increase safety. Some states even mandated them. As the data accumulated it turned out that they do not make any difference.

I would use the IIHS and HLDI data, but not a system that attempts to combine various safety indicators with an arbitrary weighting for vehicle mass to generate an overall safety value. The only way to validate such a combination would be to compare the real world fatality rates to the rates predicted using the mix of variables and weighting. But if real world fatality rates are an input then you cannot improve the prediction of real world fatality rates by adding something else.

For many models fatalities are so rare that there is a serious shortage of data. If there have been no fatalities reported in >100,000 vehicle years for many different models, how does one prove that any inferences about relative safety are correct?

When we last bought a car I had to do a lot of research about which safety features had been shown to work. I found many things in newer cars that seemed like good ideas, but they had not panned out in real world results.

All that said, for the OP one major concern was ease of getting into and out of the car. No amount of safety results will answer that one. Try them on for size is the only thing one could do.
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Dandy
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by Dandy » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:41 am

There has been a lot of discussion about new safety features and auto deaths. I don't think that is the main point. Avoiding death and injury for you and family is of course important but probably not the critical selling feature. Avoiding accidents and the repair/insurance costs/ hassles, time without your car, trips to the repair shop, the cost of the deductible, etc. also are factors.

You don't have to pay a lot more to get some of the best safety features. You don't have to buy new either. But you may have to update your thinking about the trade offs between keeping an old car to squeeze the last dime out of it vs updating it to get some possible health/cost savings for you or the car/person you don't hit.

Leesbro63
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by Leesbro63 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:10 am

William4u wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 7:57 pm
The overall driver death rate for all 2011 and equivalent models during 2009-12 was 28 deaths per million registered vehicle years. The overall driver death rate for all 2002 and equivalent models during 2000-03 was 87 deaths per million registered vehicle years.
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/driver-death-rates

That is an indication that the 10 year newer cars are almost 3 times more safe from serious injury. Newer cars are built much better to withstand a crash and let the occupants walk away.

Here is a crash test by the Australian govt comparing a 1999 to a 2015 toyota corolla crashing. The crash test dummy in the 1999 car indicates severe injury. The 2015 dummy is essentially unharmed. The article below discusses some of the statistical differences in safety between old and new cars...
https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/a ... dels-55410
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xidhx_f-ouU

These are just a few indicators of the dramatic improvements in safety that happen over time. A Consumer Reports "Talking About Cars" episode discussed this issue, and the CR experts said "The safety of a model car doubles every ten years." So the car experts at CR think 10 years is a pretty big deal. The same CR people think that "automatic emergency braking" is the new seat belt, and that feature is mainly only found on newer cars.
Your Corolla crash link was informative. But the 1998 has no airbag. So this is more about airbag vs no airbag. Which is yesteryear’s conversation. The real issue of the original poster is a 2008 car vs a 2018 car.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by michaeljc70 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:30 am

William4u wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 7:57 pm
The overall driver death rate for all 2011 and equivalent models during 2009-12 was 28 deaths per million registered vehicle years. The overall driver death rate for all 2002 and equivalent models during 2000-03 was 87 deaths per million registered vehicle years.
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/driver-death-rates

That is an indication that the 10 year newer cars are almost 3 times more safe from serious injury. Newer cars are built much better to withstand a crash and let the occupants walk away.

Here is a crash test by the Australian govt comparing a 1999 to a 2015 toyota corolla crashing. The crash test dummy in the 1999 car indicates severe injury. The 2015 dummy is essentially unharmed. The article below discusses some of the statistical differences in safety between old and new cars...
https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/a ... dels-55410
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xidhx_f-ouU

These are just a few indicators of the dramatic improvements in safety that happen over time. A Consumer Reports "Talking About Cars" episode discussed this issue, and the CR experts said "The safety of a model car doubles every ten years." So the car experts at CR think 10 years is a pretty big deal. The same CR people think that "automatic emergency braking" is the new seat belt, and that feature is mainly only found on newer cars.
I think you're drawing too many conclusions from that data. You are comparing two different time periods. Drunk driven related accidents have been steadily dropping for one thing. What about miles driven instead of statistics based on number of vehicles?

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ray.james
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by ray.james » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:35 pm

ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 3:28 pm
My old car has ESC so not much gain there. I haven't heard of active headrests. My newer car has auto-braking which I love, especially using adaptive cruise control. Blind spot monitoring, especially backing up is nice too.
May I ask what model is this? We are looking for family cars as well and to replace out 11 year old Elantra which does not seem to have ESC.
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by ThankYouJack » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:47 pm

ray.james wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:35 pm
ThankYouJack wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 3:28 pm
My old car has ESC so not much gain there. I haven't heard of active headrests. My newer car has auto-braking which I love, especially using adaptive cruise control. Blind spot monitoring, especially backing up is nice too.
May I ask what model is this? We are looking for family cars as well and to replace out 11 year old Elantra which does not seem to have ESC.
Subaru Outback with the eyesight package

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by j0nnyg1984 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:24 pm

Never.

I'd prefer to drive a model-t over one of the piece of crap electronic riddled cars of this generation.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by Leesbro63 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:00 pm

j0nnyg1984 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:24 pm
Never.

I'd prefer to drive a model-t over one of the piece of crap electronic riddled cars of this generation.
Good luck surviving an accident in your Model T, when getting hit by one of the "this generation" cars you reference.

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ray.james
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by ray.james » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:25 pm

ThankYouJack wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:47 pm

Subaru Outback with the eyesight package
Thanks. I am glad Consumer Reports started the technology survey. I think it will help when there is a jump in technology. most of the tech are now switching to second gen which I think is a good leap on false positives.
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by H-Town » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:36 pm

j0nnyg1984 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:24 pm
Never.

I'd prefer to drive a model-t over one of the piece of crap electronic riddled cars of this generation.
Hear hear. Those electronics and technology are just distractions. It will also get your car to the shop more often than not. More electronics, more moving parts, more reliability issues. Why do I have to pay extra for those?

Leesbro63
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by Leesbro63 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:30 am

That’s a fallacy. Cars today, especially top rated ones (usually Toy/Hon) go to the shop WAY less than “simple” cars of yesteryear. I remember my father keeping a pad and pen, when buying a new car, to list the repairs required for the first service visit. Maintenance was way more frequent. And break downs to the side of the road are much rarer.

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snackdog
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by snackdog » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:22 am

If you minimize your driving, avoid driving after dark or other adverse conditions, have a car with shoulder seat belts, air bags and crumple zones you are 99% of the way there. The rest of the gadgets are incremental improvements that you may or may not ever use. Lane departure and blind spot warnings strike me as idiotic crutches for drivers who perhaps should not be on the road at all.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by ThankYouJack » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:01 pm

j0nnyg1984 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:24 pm
Never.

I'd prefer to drive a model-t over one of the piece of crap electronic riddled cars of this generation.
I think not all but some of the tech is neat and definitely helpful. Didn't a bunch of people feel seat belts and air bags made cars more dangerous when they first came out? Maybe some still do.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by j0nnyg1984 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:15 pm

ThankYouJack wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:01 pm
j0nnyg1984 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:24 pm
Never.

I'd prefer to drive a model-t over one of the piece of crap electronic riddled cars of this generation.
I think not all but some of the tech is neat and definitely helpful. Didn't a bunch of people feel seat belts and air bags made cars more dangerous when they first came out? Maybe some still do.
yeah, some of it is amazing. The backup camera in my current rental Ford Explorer is fantastic. The adaptive cruise control and upcoming traffic indicator / warning thing almost made me get into a wreck Tuesday morning. Probably not a good idea to have very bright flashing red lights, a siren-like noise, and a car automatically mashing on the brakes with a driver who isn't expecting it.

I disabled all of that crap shortly after.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by j0nnyg1984 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:17 pm

Leesbro63 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:00 pm
j0nnyg1984 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:24 pm
Never.

I'd prefer to drive a model-t over one of the piece of crap electronic riddled cars of this generation.
Good luck surviving an accident in your Model T, when getting hit by one of the "this generation" cars you reference.
God, you're so right. It's amazing that I've made it 30-something years without being surrounded in foam and pillows everywhere I go.

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ThankYouJack
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by ThankYouJack » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:33 pm

j0nnyg1984 wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:15 pm
ThankYouJack wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:01 pm
j0nnyg1984 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:24 pm
Never.

I'd prefer to drive a model-t over one of the piece of crap electronic riddled cars of this generation.
I think not all but some of the tech is neat and definitely helpful. Didn't a bunch of people feel seat belts and air bags made cars more dangerous when they first came out? Maybe some still do.
yeah, some of it is amazing. The backup camera in my current rental Ford Explorer is fantastic. The adaptive cruise control and upcoming traffic indicator / warning thing almost made me get into a wreck Tuesday morning. Probably not a good idea to have very bright flashing red lights, a siren-like noise, and a car automatically mashing on the brakes with a driver who isn't expecting it.

I disabled all of that crap shortly after.
Along with the back up camera, I like the cross-traffic monitoring of my Outback. It will alert if there's a moving object behind the car outside of my view and the camera view on the dash.

Realize that not all tech is the same. I haven't tried a Ford, but after 3+ years of driving my Outback it has yet to engage the automatic braking feature to avoid hitting something. The sales guy said that it will wait until the very last second and slam on the brakes. Maybe Fords are much more sensitive.

I have purposefully tested automatic braking using X-mode while descending down icy roads. Most people probably don't know about it (it's Subaru specific) but that's more tech that I think is great.

ThankYouJack
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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by ThankYouJack » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:46 pm

j0nnyg1984 wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:17 pm
Leesbro63 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:00 pm
j0nnyg1984 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:24 pm
Never.

I'd prefer to drive a model-t over one of the piece of crap electronic riddled cars of this generation.
Good luck surviving an accident in your Model T, when getting hit by one of the "this generation" cars you reference.
God, you're so right. It's amazing that I've made it 30-something years without being surrounded in foam and pillows everywhere I go.

Image
What's the leading cause of death for 45 years old and under - https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/m ... es2008.pdf

Something like 80-90% of people think they're better than the average driver (I do too). But the list of people I know who have died or lost loved ones in car accidents is increasing and I don't feel invincible like I did when I was teen.

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Re: At what point to buy new car for safety

Post by Trism » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:15 am

At 1.16 deaths per 100,000,000 miles driven I don't spend two nanoseconds evaluating a new car's safety features, any more than I spend one nanosecond obsessing over fuel economy.

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/gener ... e-overview

Granted, this is only one safety metric, but driving is extremely safe in modern vehicles.

I mainly want a vehicle with strong acceleration, precise handling and a stylish appearance.

My spouse is the opposite, and talked me into going on a test drive of a Honda Fit. Between the two of us and the 225# sales guy we couldn't get anywhere close to traffic speed on an a freeway on-ramp that had a modest incline. The car had an efficient configuration for certain types of cargo and a low cost of ownership, but ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

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