long term care insurance

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Hubris
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:55 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by Hubris » Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:26 pm

Thanks WoW2012. The homework was good, to remind me of some of the original decision-making and details, especially the 5% compounding of the continuation rider.

WoW2012
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:12 pm

Hubris wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:26 pm
Thanks WoW2012. The homework was good, to remind me of some of the original decision-making and details, especially the 5% compounding of the continuation rider.
Most hybrids suck.
The one you bought is the best one out there.

pintail07
Posts: 349
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by pintail07 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:35 pm

Hubris, does your policy compound inflation benefit on just the continuous of benefit portion or on all benefits?

capemaydiamond
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:32 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by capemaydiamond » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:55 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:34 pm
CULater wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:34 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:51 pm
CULater wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:42 pm
I have the feeling that insurance companies were so far off in their calculations in the early years of LTCi that the only winners are the people who bought it way back then, and that the losers are going to be the people who are buying it now.

I have a question: I see ads constantly for insurance products on TV: home insurance, car insurance, health insurance, etc. but I can't recall seeing any for long term care insurance with smiling people enjoying their zero cost care in the nursing home and gratefully endorsing their purchase. Why is that?
Because it's not a very profitable product.
The ROI on LTC insurance is single-digits for most insurance companies.
Insurance companies prefer ROI in the high teens.

My MIL is enjoying her ALF with zero cost of care for her. Her LTCi policy is paying every penny of her ALF expenses each month. If you'd like, I can post a smiling picture of her (and her kids). We're all very happy she has the policy. Instead of liquidating her assets, her assets are increasing each month. Plus she's preserving her dignity because her daughter doesn't have to bathe her or help her on and off the toilet every day. Whoever posted that his/her plan is to have each spouse take care of the other one has never seen an 81-year old man with a heart condition try to get a 79-year old woman off the toilet.
I'm glad to hear that about your MIL. Do you think the policy she has would be available now at a reasonable cost?
Yes.
Can you provide any details about her policy? Did you reach any conclusions about companies or policies (or brokers) when you used that website for $299?
I also want to thank everyone who has posted in response to my initial question.

WoW2012
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:16 pm

Her policy pays about $10,000 per month in benefits.
It has about $375,000 in benefits.
Her premium was about $300 per month.
Her premium stopped once she began receiving benefits.

I did use that software to help us determine which company had the best rates.
That company has slightly higher rates now than they did when she purchased her policy.

What I found using that software is that the inflation benefit choices are often very expensive.
Buying higher benefit amounts with no inflation growth seems to me to be a better choice than buying a lower benefit amount with an inflation protection rider.

That's what we did for my MIL. She did not buy any inflation protection.
That's what my wife and I did for our policies, too.

capemaydiamond
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:32 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by capemaydiamond » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:25 pm

Thanks. Would you mind saying which company her policy is through? And your policy? Did you decide on the company and policy and contact them directly or did you use a broker of some kind?

On another note, I have requested email notification when someone posts on this topic and I'm not getting them. Any thoughts about why not? I can't find my email address anywhere on the site to confirm the correct one is on file, and I can't find any info about a forum administrator to ask this kind of thing.......

Hubris
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:55 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by Hubris » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:35 pm

pintail07 wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:35 pm
Hubris, does your policy compound inflation benefit on just the continuous of benefit portion or on all benefits?
Just compounds on the continuation rider, although @ 5%. We could have chosen no inflation protection, 3% or 5%.

HIinvestor
Posts: 1653
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:23 am

Re: long term care insurance

Post by HIinvestor » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:44 pm

Whatever policy you consider, please READ and understand the terms so you know when benefits start, what you have to do to get benefits, how much premiums can be increased and over what period, etc.

When the fed govt was first encouraging its employees to buy LTCi for extended family, I carefully read thru the policy and we even met with an agent from MetLife, one of the insurers.

Basically, you only qualify for benefits when unable to do x number of the defined activities of daily living (ADLs)—transferring from bed to chair, dressing, bathing, toileting, feeding yourself, etc. It is irrelevant how slowly and painfully you do these tasks, until your MD certifies you cannot do x number of these tasks you do NOT qualify for anything.

My aunt died a very painful death from lung cancer after paying for decades on her policy. She didn’t qualify for a ownny if henefits until the last month of he life! I know many other elders who can still perform. ADLs but still need a lot of help functioning, including taking Rx, doing laundry, meals and all they entail, and more. They similarly would NOT qualify for any benefits.

Anyway, understand what you are considering and when it will start. They are supposed to have the policy in plain English.

We have not purchased LTCi. We will hire the help we need as we see fit and will be sure to have the resources on hand to do so.

JoeRetire
Posts: 1592
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:44 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by JoeRetire » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:08 pm

HIinvestor wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:44 pm
Basically, you only qualify for benefits when unable to do x number of the defined activities of daily living (ADLs)—transferring from bed to chair, dressing, bathing, toileting, feeding yourself, etc. It is irrelevant how slowly and painfully you do these tasks, until your MD certifies you cannot do x number of these tasks you do NOT qualify for anything.
x = 2.

"Individuals who require long-term care are generally not sick in the traditional sense, but instead, are unable to perform two of the six activities of daily living (ADLs) such as dressing, bathing, eating, toileting, continence, transferring (getting in and out of a bed or chair), and walking."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_care_insurance

WoW2012
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:10 pm

HIinvestor wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:44 pm
Whatever policy you consider, please READ and understand the terms so you know when benefits start, what you have to do to get benefits, how much premiums can be increased and over what period, etc.

When the fed govt was first encouraging its employees to buy LTCi for extended family, I carefully read thru the policy and we even met with an agent from MetLife, one of the insurers.

Basically, you only qualify for benefits when unable to do x number of the defined activities of daily living (ADLs)—transferring from bed to chair, dressing, bathing, toileting, feeding yourself, etc. It is irrelevant how slowly and painfully you do these tasks, until your MD certifies you cannot do x number of these tasks you do NOT qualify for anything.

My aunt died a very painful death from lung cancer after paying for decades on her policy. She didn’t qualify for a ownny if henefits until the last month of he life! I know many other elders who can still perform. ADLs but still need a lot of help functioning, including taking Rx, doing laundry, meals and all they entail, and more. They similarly would NOT qualify for any benefits.

Anyway, understand what you are considering and when it will start. They are supposed to have the policy in plain English.

We have not purchased LTCi. We will hire the help we need as we see fit and will be sure to have the resources on hand to do so.

If your aunt had a policy for decades she probably bought a policy that did not include the 1993 and the 1997 long-term care insurance consumer protections.

Long-term care insurance policies pay benefits for more than just hands-on assistance to perform activities of daily living.

About half of all long-term care insurance claims are due to a cognitive impairment (like Alzheimer's or dementia).

Additionally, LTCi policies that meet the federal guidelines will pay benefits for "standby assistance", not just "hands-on" assistance.

Do you see all those pre-boards at the airport? Most of them could qualify for benefits under a long-term care policy that meets the federal guidelines.

My relative is receiving benefits from her LTCi policy. She needs help bathing three times a week and she needs standby assistance in the morning and the evening when she changes her clothes (to make sure she doesn't lose her balance and fall).

fyi... there's about 9 million people who are receiving ADL-assistance in their homes right now.

P.S. This statement is baloney: "It is irrelevant how slowly and painfully you do these tasks".

WoW2012
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:14 pm

JoeRetire wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:08 pm
HIinvestor wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:44 pm
Basically, you only qualify for benefits when unable to do x number of the defined activities of daily living (ADLs)—transferring from bed to chair, dressing, bathing, toileting, feeding yourself, etc. It is irrelevant how slowly and painfully you do these tasks, until your MD certifies you cannot do x number of these tasks you do NOT qualify for anything.
x = 2.

"Individuals who require long-term care are generally not sick in the traditional sense, but instead, are unable to perform two of the six activities of daily living (ADLs) such as dressing, bathing, eating, toileting, continence, transferring (getting in and out of a bed or chair), and walking."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_care_insurance
correct. x=2.

"Standby assistance" with two ADL's triggers the benefits or "hands on" assistance.
Needing supervision due to a cognitive impairment also triggers the benefits.
If you bought an LTCi policy before 1993, you'll probably never get a dime from it.
If you bought one between 1993 and 1997 you might get something from it.

JoeRetire
Posts: 1592
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:44 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by JoeRetire » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:19 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:14 pm
If you bought an LTCi policy before 1993, you'll probably never get a dime from it.
If you bought one between 1993 and 1997 you might get something from it.
How did you come to that conclusion?

sandramjet
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:28 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by sandramjet » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:30 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:35 pm
Quick question, do you sell this product?
I may have missed it, but I didn't see an answer to this question... From your answers, it sounds like you either sell such products or represent companies that do. Can you confirm whether that is true?

WoW2012
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:30 pm

JoeRetire wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:19 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:14 pm
If you bought an LTCi policy before 1993, you'll probably never get a dime from it.
If you bought one between 1993 and 1997 you might get something from it.
How did you come to that conclusion?
Because new regulations were created in 1993 and 1997 designed to standardize policies and protect consumers. Insurance regulations are never retroactive. They only apply to policies purchased after the regulations took efft.

Policies that don't have the 1993 protections have features which make it nearly impossible to claim benefits like:
requiring a prior hospitalization immediately before needing care or
requiring a nursing home stay before getting home care benefits or
requiring that you have to need rehabilitative care in order to get custodial care.

Before 1997 policies used vague terminology like "medical necessity" to trigger benefits.
The federal guidelines enacted in 1997 discouraged that.

JoeRetire
Posts: 1592
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:44 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by JoeRetire » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:35 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:30 pm
JoeRetire wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:19 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:14 pm
If you bought an LTCi policy before 1993, you'll probably never get a dime from it.
If you bought one between 1993 and 1997 you might get something from it.
How did you come to that conclusion?
Because new regulations were created in 1993 and 1997 designed to standardize policies and protect consumers. Insurance regulations are never retroactive. They only apply to policies purchased after the regulations took efft.

Policies that don't have the 1993 protections have features which make it nearly impossible to claim benefits like:
requiring a prior hospitalization immediately before needing care or
requiring a nursing home stay before getting home care benefits or
requiring that you have to need rehabilitative care in order to get custodial care.

Before 1997 policies used vague terminology like "medical necessity" to trigger benefits.
The federal guidelines enacted in 1997 discouraged that.
I know several family and friends who purchased their policies before 1997 and were able to benefit from them. I'm pretty sure one of them purchased hers before 1993.

I think you are being overly pessimistic here.

WoW2012
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:37 pm

JoeRetire wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:35 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:30 pm
JoeRetire wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:19 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:14 pm
If you bought an LTCi policy before 1993, you'll probably never get a dime from it.
If you bought one between 1993 and 1997 you might get something from it.
How did you come to that conclusion?
Because new regulations were created in 1993 and 1997 designed to standardize policies and protect consumers. Insurance regulations are never retroactive. They only apply to policies purchased after the regulations took efft.

Policies that don't have the 1993 protections have features which make it nearly impossible to claim benefits like:
requiring a prior hospitalization immediately before needing care or
requiring a nursing home stay before getting home care benefits or
requiring that you have to need rehabilitative care in order to get custodial care.

Before 1997 policies used vague terminology like "medical necessity" to trigger benefits.
The federal guidelines enacted in 1997 discouraged that.
I know several family and friends who purchased their policies before 1997 and were able to benefit from them. I'm pretty sure one of them purchased hers before 1993.

I think you are being overly pessimistic here.

maybe.

WoW2012
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:38 pm

sandramjet wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:30 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:35 pm
Quick question, do you sell this product?
I may have missed it, but I didn't see an answer to this question... From your answers, it sounds like you either sell such products or represent companies that do. Can you confirm whether that is true?
I've worked in the insurance industry, off and on, for 35 years. That's why I know more than the average person about this product. Also, I've had a lot of family members who have needed long-term care. Most of them did NOT have long-term care insurance. I was a caregiver for one of them and it nearly destroyed my marriage.

JoeRetire
Posts: 1592
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:44 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by JoeRetire » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:57 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:38 pm
I've had a lot of family members who have needed long-term care. Most of them did NOT have long-term care insurance. I was a caregiver for one of them and it nearly destroyed my marriage.
I'm sorry to hear that your family members needed long-term care, but didn't have insurance.
And I'm very sorry for the strain it put on your marriage. That happens far too often.

The potential strain on others along with the potential strain on our finances is why my wife and I purchased LTC insurance. I'm glad we can afford it.

WoW2012
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:06 pm

JoeRetire wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:57 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:38 pm
I've had a lot of family members who have needed long-term care. Most of them did NOT have long-term care insurance. I was a caregiver for one of them and it nearly destroyed my marriage.
I'm sorry to hear that your family members needed long-term care, but didn't have insurance.
And I'm very sorry for the strain it put on your marriage. That happens far too often.

The potential strain on others along with the potential strain on our finances is why my wife and I purchased LTC insurance. I'm glad we can afford it.
Exactly.
It's just like life insurance.
I didn't buy life insurance after my son was born to benefit myself. I bought it to benefit my wife and him.
The same is true for long-term care insurance. I don't own it to benefit myself. My wife's the one who will benefit from my policy (and vice versa). And our kids won't have to worry about the finances.

capjak
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:58 am

Re: long term care insurance

Post by capjak » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:03 pm

I am in the process of purchasing a hybrid whole life with unlimited LTC rider with 3% inflation (Asset Care I, One America).
$9000 (4500 per person) per month for first 25 months (no inflation) than rider kicks in at $9000 per month (4500 per person) 3% inflation and pays as long as one or both are in LTC. No increase in price. Opting for single premium whole life and 10 annual payments for the rider (other option would be single premium, 20 pay or lifetime pay all no increase over the life of both people).

pintail07
Posts: 349
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by pintail07 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:11 pm

Isn't this your website,
https://www.ltcshop.com/

At least admit you are mostly a long term care insurance broker.

JoeRetire
Posts: 1592
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:44 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by JoeRetire » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:08 am

WoW2012 wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:06 pm
Exactly.
It's just like life insurance.
I didn't buy life insurance after my son was born to benefit myself. I bought it to benefit my wife and him.
The same is true for long-term care insurance. I don't own it to benefit myself. My wife's the one who will benefit from my policy (and vice versa). And our kids won't have to worry about the finances.
Well, not quite like life insurance.

With life insurance, the insured cannot directly benefit. With LTC insurance, the insured can benefit directly by having the funds to pay for care.
And of course most (all?) life insurance premiums are fixed. Not so with LTCi.

But overall, I think we agree on why LTCi makes sense for many who can afford it.
Last edited by JoeRetire on Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

jpdion
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:52 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by jpdion » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:51 am

I am always a bit frustrated with discussions of LTCI, as they tend to be narrowly focused on the different products offered in the marketplace and whether or not to self-insure (with self-insure pretty much defined as invested assets). It seems to me that some creative minds could take a broader frame look at the need and formulate solutions that could fit a number of different situations. Face it, insurance companies will always create products that turn a profit and limit their risk specific to the risk being insured. So, if someone is concerned with LTC, the agent will sell you a product geared toward LTC with benefits triggered by a negative life event. But, all you are really looking for is a stream of supplemental income payments, most likely later in life - what products might provide the same thing at less cost?. What about longevity insurance that provides an annuity at say age 85? Or, perhaps establishing a defined monthly investment that allows you to buy a SPIA at a defined age? Plan to use a reverse mortgage to buy a SPIA - that would produce two income streams, and allow you to keep your house for one spouse to live in, right? If you don't need the supplemental income streams at the future age you choose, you reinvest it. Just riffing here.

CULater
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:59 am

Re: long term care insurance

Post by CULater » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:27 pm

pintail07 wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:11 pm
Isn't this your website,
https://www.ltcshop.com/

At least admit you are mostly a long term care insurance broker.
Is this true? Explains a lot I was puzzling about.
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, The foresight to know where you're going, And the insight to know when you've gone too far. ~ Irish Blessing

pintail07
Posts: 349
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by pintail07 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:45 pm

Hubris, have you run the numbers on how much extra you will owe if you go on claim in 20 or 25 years? Big number i bet your agent never explained.

Hubris
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:55 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by Hubris » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:50 pm

Pintail, I don’t follow your question, can you clarify?

pintail07
Posts: 349
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by pintail07 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:50 am

Ok, lets assume ltc inflation is the same as your policy's inflation 5%. Assume you go on claim in 25 years. Assume claim lasts 3 years, how much extra out of pocket costs will you incur due to no inflation other than the continuation of benefit rider?

WoW2012
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:56 am

jpdion wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:51 am
I am always a bit frustrated with discussions of LTCI, as they tend to be narrowly focused on the different products offered in the marketplace and whether or not to self-insure (with self-insure pretty much defined as invested assets). It seems to me that some creative minds could take a broader frame look at the need and formulate solutions that could fit a number of different situations. Face it, insurance companies will always create products that turn a profit and limit their risk specific to the risk being insured. So, if someone is concerned with LTC, the agent will sell you a product geared toward LTC with benefits triggered by a negative life event. But, all you are really looking for is a stream of supplemental income payments, most likely later in life - what products might provide the same thing at less cost?. What about longevity insurance that provides an annuity at say age 85? Or, perhaps establishing a defined monthly investment that allows you to buy a SPIA at a defined age? Plan to use a reverse mortgage to buy a SPIA - that would produce two income streams, and allow you to keep your house for one spouse to live in, right? If you don't need the supplemental income streams at the future age you choose, you reinvest it. Just riffing here.
All of those ideas are great, until you do the math.

I got a quote one-time for one of those "deferred income annuities". Oh my gosh. I'd have to fork over a six-figure single premium and when I was 85 it would only pay me $3,000 per month. $3,000 per month doesn't even cover the cost of long-term care now, let alone 30 years from now.

WoW2012
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:57 am

CULater wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:27 pm
pintail07 wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:11 pm
Isn't this your website,
https://www.ltcshop.com/

At least admit you are mostly a long term care insurance broker.
Is this true? Explains a lot I was puzzling about.
Not mine.
Sorry to disappoint you.

pintail07
Posts: 349
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by pintail07 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:22 am

So your name isn't SAO? Maybe the moderators can check this out, soliciting is frowned on. Are you not a long term care broker?

CULater
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:59 am

Re: long term care insurance

Post by CULater » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:18 am

pintail07 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:22 am
So your name isn't SAO? Maybe the moderators can check this out, soliciting is frowned on. Are you not a long term care broker?
:?:
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, The foresight to know where you're going, And the insight to know when you've gone too far. ~ Irish Blessing

jpdion
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:52 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by jpdion » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:20 am

WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:56 am
jpdion wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:51 am
I am always a bit frustrated with discussions of LTCI, as they tend to be narrowly focused on the different products offered in the marketplace and whether or not to self-insure (with self-insure pretty much defined as invested assets). It seems to me that some creative minds could take a broader frame look at the need and formulate solutions that could fit a number of different situations. Face it, insurance companies will always create products that turn a profit and limit their risk specific to the risk being insured. So, if someone is concerned with LTC, the agent will sell you a product geared toward LTC with benefits triggered by a negative life event. But, all you are really looking for is a stream of supplemental income payments, most likely later in life - what products might provide the same thing at less cost?. What about longevity insurance that provides an annuity at say age 85? Or, perhaps establishing a defined monthly investment that allows you to buy a SPIA at a defined age? Plan to use a reverse mortgage to buy a SPIA - that would produce two income streams, and allow you to keep your house for one spouse to live in, right? If you don't need the supplemental income streams at the future age you choose, you reinvest it. Just riffing here.
All of those ideas are great, until you do the math.

I got a quote one-time for one of those "deferred income annuities". Oh my gosh. I'd have to fork over a six-figure single premium and when I was 85 it would only pay me $3,000 per month. $3,000 per month doesn't even cover the cost of long-term care now, let alone 30 years from now.
Was just riffing . . . the question is really what is the best way to self-insure for each individual?

Nate79
Posts: 3478
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:24 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: long term care insurance

Post by Nate79 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:39 pm

10 years from now when all of the people who bought these horrible WL policies with LTC riders are going to be coming on here asking about whether they should keep or not regretting their purchase..... Slapping some lipstick on a pig doesn't suddenly turn these products into a wonderful product. In fact they make them worse as the primary problem with WL is the mixing of insurance with investing. Add in a 3rd layer and you have even more complexity (and cost). Do we really think the insurance industry is able to manage LTC better by mixing it with their WL policies?

marcopolo
Posts: 1123
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: long term care insurance

Post by marcopolo » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:44 pm

pintail07 wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:11 pm
Isn't this your website,
https://www.ltcshop.com/

At least admit you are mostly a long term care insurance broker.
Just in the interest of Full Disclosure. pintail07, are you also in the business of selling LTC policies, particularly Hybrid policies of the type WoW2012 seems to frown upon?
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

CULater
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:59 am

Re: long term care insurance

Post by CULater » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:52 pm

marcopolo wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:44 pm
pintail07 wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:11 pm
Isn't this your website,
https://www.ltcshop.com/

At least admit you are mostly a long term care insurance broker.
Just in the interest of Full Disclosure. pintail07, are you also in the business of selling LTC policies, particularly Hybrid policies of the type WoW2012 seems to frown upon?
Seems to me until there are answers to these questions, I'm taking some sources of comment on this thread with a few teaspoons of salt.
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, The foresight to know where you're going, And the insight to know when you've gone too far. ~ Irish Blessing

pintail07
Posts: 349
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: long term care insurance

Post by pintail07 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:31 pm

I would take all comments on any forum with a grain of salt. I have stated many times on this forum that I am a long term care broker. My point is the poster vilolates forum rules of solicitation by referring folks to his website. I do sell both traditional and hybrid policies. I find most folks don't have a full grasp of the true cost of a hybrid policy, although it pays the broker more compensation.

WoW2012
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:05 pm

jpdion wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:20 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:56 am
jpdion wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:51 am
I am always a bit frustrated with discussions of LTCI, as they tend to be narrowly focused on the different products offered in the marketplace and whether or not to self-insure (with self-insure pretty much defined as invested assets). It seems to me that some creative minds could take a broader frame look at the need and formulate solutions that could fit a number of different situations. Face it, insurance companies will always create products that turn a profit and limit their risk specific to the risk being insured. So, if someone is concerned with LTC, the agent will sell you a product geared toward LTC with benefits triggered by a negative life event. But, all you are really looking for is a stream of supplemental income payments, most likely later in life - what products might provide the same thing at less cost?. What about longevity insurance that provides an annuity at say age 85? Or, perhaps establishing a defined monthly investment that allows you to buy a SPIA at a defined age? Plan to use a reverse mortgage to buy a SPIA - that would produce two income streams, and allow you to keep your house for one spouse to live in, right? If you don't need the supplemental income streams at the future age you choose, you reinvest it. Just riffing here.
All of those ideas are great, until you do the math.

I got a quote one-time for one of those "deferred income annuities". Oh my gosh. I'd have to fork over a six-figure single premium and when I was 85 it would only pay me $3,000 per month. $3,000 per month doesn't even cover the cost of long-term care now, let alone 30 years from now.
Was just riffing . . . the question is really what is the best way to self-insure for each individual?

I usually pay cash for our vehicles. If I spill my coffee and crash my Lexus into tree and total it, I can go to the Lexus dealer and pay cash for a new one the next day. Since I have the cash to buy a new car should I "self-insure" or does it make more sense to spend $500 a year for the collision insurance?

dknightd
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Re: long term care insurance

Post by dknightd » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:23 pm

glensos wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:09 am

I would start by calling TIAA CREF. They are a more reputable and honest insurance carrier, and they don’t pay agent commissions.
metlife has taken over tiaa ltc insurance. TIAA does not sell it any more.
https://www.tiaa.org/public/offer/produ ... Modal=true
Apparently they wanted to get out of this game. I'm probably going to have to self insure. As near as I can tell premiums would add up to about what the policies will pay. That might not have been true before my wife had a stroke, then a year later a pacemaker. I need to plan to keep some money around for this. Worse case, I'll either reverse mortgage my home, or sell it out right. Maybe we'll be in the lucky group that does not need it. Maybe we'll die paupers. In pampers. Maybe by then people will be able to take their own life when they decide they are done living. Maybe I should stock pile pills, just in case . . .

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Re: long term care insurance

Post by dknightd » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:47 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:05 pm


I usually pay cash for our vehicles. If I spill my coffee and crash my Lexus into tree and total it, I can go to the Lexus dealer and pay cash for a new one the next day. Since I have the cash to buy a new car should I "self-insure" or does it make more sense to spend $500 a year for the collision insurance?
If you can get full insurance for $500/year, go for it. If you crash your lexus every year, expect your premiums to rise.
How much would you be willing to pay insure your car? At what point do you decide self insurance is a reasonable option? I'd happily pay $500 a year for $50,000 a year for LTC insurance. In fact I'd prefer to pay $1500 a year for $150,000 of insurance. But LTC rates are much higher than that, and are likely to go up. How and when do you decide to draw the line? Would you pay $2k per year, $5k per year, $10k per year to insure your Lexus?

Apparently 70% of people will require long term care. As near as I can tell insurance companies are essentially making a 30% profit since the premiums I would have to pay are about what the insurance will cover.

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Re: long term care insurance

Post by bayview » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:31 pm

capemaydiamond wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:25 pm
Thanks. Would you mind saying which company her policy is through? And your policy? Did you decide on the company and policy and contact them directly or did you use a broker of some kind?

On another note, I have requested email notification when someone posts on this topic and I'm not getting them. Any thoughts about why not? I can't find my email address anywhere on the site to confirm the correct one is on file, and I can't find any info about a forum administrator to ask this kind of thing.......
I contacted a moderator about your issue by clicking the button with the exclamation point (!) above your post. You should see a notification message in red at the top of each forum when they respond to you.

Hope you see this reply, although of course, if you’re not getting notifications, then maybe not... :confused :confused
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Re: long term care insurance

Post by LadyGeek » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:38 pm

capemaydiamond wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:25 pm
...On another note, I have requested email notification when someone posts on this topic and I'm not getting them. Any thoughts about why not? I can't find my email address anywhere on the site to confirm the correct one is on file, and I can't find any info about a forum administrator to ask this kind of thing.......
I sent you a PM.

(Thanks to the member who reported the post to get our attention.)
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Re: long term care insurance

Post by Hubris » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:12 pm

pintail07 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:50 am
Ok, lets assume ltc inflation is the same as your policy's inflation 5%. Assume you go on claim in 25 years. Assume claim lasts 3 years, how much extra out of pocket costs will you incur due to no inflation other than the continuation of benefit rider?
Thanks, Pintail, that helps as does your mention that you’re a LTC broker. We’re satisfied that the coverage meets our needs, even if not perfect. The inflation rider is on 50% of our coverage, maybe not as good as 100%.

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Re: long term care insurance

Post by jpdion » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:45 am

WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:05 pm
jpdion wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:20 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:56 am
jpdion wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:51 am
I am always a bit frustrated with discussions of LTCI, as they tend to be narrowly focused on the different products offered in the marketplace and whether or not to self-insure (with self-insure pretty much defined as invested assets). It seems to me that some creative minds could take a broader frame look at the need and formulate solutions that could fit a number of different situations. Face it, insurance companies will always create products that turn a profit and limit their risk specific to the risk being insured. So, if someone is concerned with LTC, the agent will sell you a product geared toward LTC with benefits triggered by a negative life event. But, all you are really looking for is a stream of supplemental income payments, most likely later in life - what products might provide the same thing at less cost?. What about longevity insurance that provides an annuity at say age 85? Or, perhaps establishing a defined monthly investment that allows you to buy a SPIA at a defined age? Plan to use a reverse mortgage to buy a SPIA - that would produce two income streams, and allow you to keep your house for one spouse to live in, right? If you don't need the supplemental income streams at the future age you choose, you reinvest it. Just riffing here.
All of those ideas are great, until you do the math.

I got a quote one-time for one of those "deferred income annuities". Oh my gosh. I'd have to fork over a six-figure single premium and when I was 85 it would only pay me $3,000 per month. $3,000 per month doesn't even cover the cost of long-term care now, let alone 30 years from now.
Was just riffing . . . the question is really what is the best way to self-insure for each individual?

I usually pay cash for our vehicles. If I spill my coffee and crash my Lexus into tree and total it, I can go to the Lexus dealer and pay cash for a new one the next day. Since I have the cash to buy a new car should I "self-insure" or does it make more sense to spend $500 a year for the collision insurance?
Understand the car example, as I paid cash for my last car and of course carry insurance for risk present every day I drive the car. But I don't think the example quite fits LTCI, which is a potential need in the future, with duration and costs uncertain. Insurance companies can calculate the risks associated with insuring cars with great precision and have a large risk pool - that makes it affordable. Insurance companies can't really calculate with precision the LTC risk associated with a specific individual or couple, and thus premiums are escalating rapidly and many companies dropping out of the LTCI market. Reduced competition drives up premiums, as do reduced risk pools (LTCI death spiral?). Individuals run the additional risk of their chosen LTCI company pricing them out or dropping out of the market, wasting policy owners' sunk cost of premiums paid. So, if one understands the potential supplemental income need at an approximate future time, one should develop the ability to generate a plan and asset base needed to create that additional cash flow with as much certainty as possible. One could get quotes for LTCI, but instead of paying the insurance company put the premium amount aside monthly into an investment fund reserved for future LTC needs. I don't know the answer, but I do know that I don't feel the LTCI market is reliable for the need.

JoeRetire
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Re: long term care insurance

Post by JoeRetire » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:09 am

jpdion wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:51 am
But, all you are really looking for is a stream of supplemental income payments, most likely later in life
That's not the same as insurance.

WoW2012
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Re: long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:50 am

jpdion wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:45 am
Understand the car example, as I paid cash for my last car and of course carry insurance for risk present every day I drive the car. But I don't think the example quite fits LTCI, which is a potential need in the future, with duration and costs uncertain. Insurance companies can calculate the risks associated with insuring cars with great precision and have a large risk pool - that makes it affordable. Insurance companies can't really calculate with precision the LTC risk associated with a specific individual or couple, and thus premiums are escalating rapidly and many companies dropping out of the LTCI market. Reduced competition drives up premiums, as do reduced risk pools (LTCI death spiral?). Individuals run the additional risk of their chosen LTCI company pricing them out or dropping out of the market, wasting policy owners' sunk cost of premiums paid. So, if one understands the potential supplemental income need at an approximate future time, one should develop the ability to generate a plan and asset base needed to create that additional cash flow with as much certainty as possible. One could get quotes for LTCI, but instead of paying the insurance company put the premium amount aside monthly into an investment fund reserved for future LTC needs. I don't know the answer, but I do know that I don't feel the LTCI market is reliable for the need.

You would be 100% correct, if what you wrote here was true.
Fortunately, none of what you wrote is true.

WoW2012
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Re: long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:23 am

jpdion wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:45 am

Understand the car example, as I paid cash for my last car and of course carry insurance for risk present every day I drive the car. But I don't think the example quite fits LTCI, which is a potential need in the future, with duration and costs uncertain. Insurance companies can calculate the risks associated with insuring cars with great precision and have a large risk pool - that makes it affordable. Insurance companies can't really calculate with precision the LTC risk associated with a specific individual or couple, and thus premiums are escalating rapidly and many companies dropping out of the LTCI market. Reduced competition drives up premiums, as do reduced risk pools (LTCI death spiral?). Individuals run the additional risk of their chosen LTCI company pricing them out or dropping out of the market, wasting policy owners' sunk cost of premiums paid. So, if one understands the potential supplemental income need at an approximate future time, one should develop the ability to generate a plan and asset base needed to create that additional cash flow with as much certainty as possible. One could get quotes for LTCI, but instead of paying the insurance company put the premium amount aside monthly into an investment fund reserved for future LTC needs. I don't know the answer, but I do know that I don't feel the LTCI market is reliable for the need.

JPDion: “Insurance companies can't really calculate with precision the LTC risk associated with a specific individual or couple.”

That’s correct. Insurance companies can’t calculate the risk associated with a specific individual or couple. Now that there have been over one million long-term care insurance claims and over $120 billion of incurred long-term care insurance claims, the insurers have a lot more data. You’re correct that they can’t calculate the risk associated with a specific individual or couple. But they can calculate the risk of a large group of policyholders. That’s how all insurance works. It’s called the law of large numbers.


JPDion: “...and thus premiums are escalating rapidly…”

Most of the rate increases have been on policies that were purchased before 2008. Newer policies already include all prior rate increases in the new pricing.


JPDion: “...and many companies dropping out of the LTCI market.”

There were over 150 insurance companies selling long-term care insurance in the 1990’s. The smaller ones were bought up by the bigger ones. By 2001 there were around 100 companies selling long-term care insurance. Most of them dropped out before 2005 because they did not want to comply with the Rate Stability Regulation which most states required by 2006.

The number of companies selling long-term care insurance has INCREASED over the past 5 years. There are more companies selling long-term care insurance today than there were in 2013.

There are 13 different insurance companies actively selling new long-term care insurance policies. In most states consumers have more choices for long term care insurance than they do for medical insurance or disability insurance.


JPDion: “...Reduced competition drives up premiums…”


The reason new long-term care policies cost more than older long-term care policies is that the new regulations penalize the insurers for rate increases. If an insurer seeks a rate increase the new regulations force them to reduce their profits. No insurer wants to reduce profits, therefore, today’s policies are priced much higher than the older policies.


JPDion: “...as do reduced risk pools (LTCI death spiral?)”

Death spirals can happen with medical insurance, not long-term care insurance. There’s never been an LTCi death spiral because LTCi uses “reserve-pricing” not “expense-pricing”. Also people rarely drop their LTCi policies even after a rate increase.


JPDion: “...Individuals run the additional risk of their chosen LTCI company pricing them out or dropping out of the market,

Fortunately, the Rate Stability Regulation has removed the incentive for insurance companies to “price policyholders out”. Over 90% of the rate increases you hear about are on policies that are not protected by the Rate Stability Regulation.

Last year over 100 companies paid claims on long-term care insurance policies. 13 of those companies sell long-term care policies today. The other 87+ have “dropped out of the market” (to use your phrase). If a company stops selling new policies, they still have to pay all claims on the policies they issued.


JPDion: “...One could get quotes for LTCI, but instead of paying the insurance company put the premium amount aside monthly into an investment fund reserved for future LTC needs…”

A few minutes with an excel spreadsheet proves otherwise. You'd have to earn about 28% per year, every year (pre-tax), for 20 years for your “fund” to equal what a long-term care insurance policy could give you in benefits from day one.


JPDion: “Understand the car example, as I paid cash for my last car and of course carry insurance for risk present every day I drive the car. But I don't think the example quite fits LTCI, which is a potential need in the future, with duration and costs uncertain.”

“Which is a potential need in the future.” Really? Long-term care is a “potential need in the future”. Are you immune from injury and accident until some point “in the future”? Are you immune from illness and sickness until some point “in the future”? Since you’re able to predict when you’ll need care, just buy your LTCi policy one month before that point “in the future”.

“...with duration and costs uncertain”. That’s the point. We insure for things that have uncertain loss. That’s why long-term care insurance makes sense. We don’t know when we might need care nor how long we might need it for.

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Re: long term care insurance

Post by JoeRetire » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:55 am

WoW2012 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:23 am
Fortunately, the Rate Stability Regulation has removed the incentive for insurance companies to “price policyholders out”. Over 90% of the rate increases you hear about are on policies that are not protected by the Rate Stability Regulation.
It's nice to hear from someone who understands the (admittedly complex) details of insurance, and in particular LTCi, rather than folks who just parrot headlines or bullet points that they don't really comprehend.

How can I find out if my policy is protected by the Rate Stability Regulation or not?

Thanks!

JoeRetire
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Re: long term care insurance

Post by JoeRetire » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:58 am

jpdion wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:45 am
One could get quotes for LTCI, but instead of paying the insurance company put the premium amount aside monthly into an investment fund reserved for future LTC needs.
One could. Just as one could skip purchasing life insurance and instead put aside an amount equal to the premium as an investment fund for future passing.

It would work just fine if you could save enough and get a high enough return. And of course as long as you don't die too soon - there's always that.

Insurance is a way to transfer risk from you to a company at a cost. If you don't want to do that, you can assume the risk yourself. Maybe you will get lucky.

WoW2012
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Re: long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:47 pm

JoeRetire wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:55 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:23 am
Fortunately, the Rate Stability Regulation has removed the incentive for insurance companies to “price policyholders out”. Over 90% of the rate increases you hear about are on policies that are not protected by the Rate Stability Regulation.
It's nice to hear from someone who understands the (admittedly complex) details of insurance, and in particular LTCi, rather than folks who just parrot headlines or bullet points that they don't really comprehend.

How can I find out if my policy is protected by the Rate Stability Regulation or not?

Thanks!
It depends upon the state you were a resident of when you bought the policy and when you bought the policy. Also, there are some group policies (e.g. the federal long-term care insurance program, CalPERS, WERS, and other self-funded groups) that do not comply with the Rate Stability Regulation. If you bought a policy from the FLTCIP or CalPERS or WERS, then your policy is not protected by the Rate Stability Regulation.

Ask the agent you bought your policy from. He/she should know.

JoeRetire
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Re: long term care insurance

Post by JoeRetire » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:52 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:47 pm
JoeRetire wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:55 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:23 am
Fortunately, the Rate Stability Regulation has removed the incentive for insurance companies to “price policyholders out”. Over 90% of the rate increases you hear about are on policies that are not protected by the Rate Stability Regulation.
It's nice to hear from someone who understands the (admittedly complex) details of insurance, and in particular LTCi, rather than folks who just parrot headlines or bullet points that they don't really comprehend.

How can I find out if my policy is protected by the Rate Stability Regulation or not?

Thanks!
It depends upon the state you were a resident of when you bought the policy and when you bought the policy. Also, there are some group policies (e.g. the federal long-term care insurance program, CalPERS, WERS, and other self-funded groups) that do not comply with the Rate Stability Regulation. If you bought a policy from the FLTCIP or CalPERS or WERS, then your policy is not protected by the Rate Stability Regulation.

Ask the agent you bought your policy from. He/she should know.
Resident of MA. Bought it in 2014 - no increases in premiums so far. Mutual of Omaha.
I was hoping there would be some phrase in the policy that would indicate compliance with the Rate Stability Regulation?

It appears that MA passed Chapter 312 of the Acts of 2012, An Act Establishing Standards for Long-Term Care Insurance, for policies issues after the beginning of 2013.

Thanks!
Last edited by JoeRetire on Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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