Vanguard -Data Concerns

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Lefty517
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Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by Lefty517 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:37 pm

A few weeks ago the Wellesley Income Fund and Wellington Fund incorrectly reported large losses that day. The Wellesley Income Admiral reported for the day that the fund lost 2.90%. When I saw the loss I called Flagship service and asked if the loss was an error because a number of the Balance funds that day reported small gains. I did not received an explanation for the error instead I was lectured on the composition of the Wellesley Income Fund and how the bond portion is impacted when interest rates go up. No matter how many times I try to cut through the lecture, the rep pushed back as if I was a new investor. It was someone on this forum who reported that Vanguard disclosed there was an error for the final reporting for both Wellesley and Wellington and that the correct numbers would be posted by 8 PM. The numbers were corrected and the loss that day was minimal.

Last Friday evening 5/8 at approximately 6:15 I logged into my accounts and recorded my investment numbers on a spreadsheet in Tax Managed Balance (VTMFX), Balance Index (VBINX) and Wellesley Admiral (VWIAX) for the close of 5/8 as I do each evening. Each one of the funds reported a gain from the prior day, with Wellesley up .29 the most that day of the 3 funds. On Saturday I was doing calculations for my accounts, logged on to review my accounts and noticed that all three funds are now reporting different numbers than was was posted Friday evening. As an example the gain reported for Wellesley Income Admiral is now 0 yet Friday evening the close reported a gain of .29.

Today I contacted my flagship representative and reviewed my findings and asked for an explanation as to what occurred Friday evening and questioned why were the numbers changed . After a few minutes researching he told me yes, there was an error in reporting for the close. I still cannot believe the reason I was given, but I was told " numbers were posted until the correct numbers were posted" I responded that the answer made no sense and was unacceptable. I asked the representative to convey to Executive management that I'm losing confidence for the reporting of the closing numbers. I question the data for the close of 5/8 as to which numbers are correct for the 3 funds in my account ? This situation is unacceptable, deeply troubles me, because I now have 2 instances where the reporting of closing numbers in a span of 4 weeks was incorrectly reported. Data integrity is number one priority, and if I lose confidence in the reporting of closing numbers, and cannot obtain a satisfactory explanation, then maybe it is time to move on. I question is Vanguard too big ?

jebmke
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by jebmke » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:52 pm

I normally wait until the next day to get the prior day valuation (I don't do this very often - maybe a couple of times per quarter). I do find their evening numbers can move sometimes. As far as I am concerned, unless I am transacting, the daily valuation is interesting but not important to me. I reconcile the share values on statements vs. my confirmations but that is pretty much it. I treat the online screens as "unofficial". I maintain my own cost basis info. So far it agrees with their info on covered shares (I don't care what they show on uncovered shares).
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

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Pajamas
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by Pajamas » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:52 pm

Lefty517 wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:37 pm
I question is Vanguard too big ?
What is the relationship between Vanguard being "big" and errors in reporting prices?

The cause might be an error in the original data sources for the prices of the holdings, not in Vanguard's calculations and reporting. Presumably Vanguard has software that calculates the fund prices from the prices of the individual holdings.

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dwickenh
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by dwickenh » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:18 pm

I do not look that often so I am not aware of such problems. My portfolio is always there and correct when I do decide to look.
The market is the most efficient mechanism anywhere in the world for transferring wealth from impatient people to patient people.” | — Warren Buffett

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tractorguy
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by tractorguy » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:10 pm

Why are you checking your accounts daily? What are you going to do with the information?

I check my accounts at Vanguard weekly but only because I use Quicken to remind me when to pay bills and the automatic download is part of my process. If I didn't have my investments and payment accounts in one place, I'd probably drop back to checking investments accounts monthly or quarterly. In the old days when I got paper statements, I only got them once a month.
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LGVILLANO
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by LGVILLANO » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:05 pm

The OP appears to be correct. Without analyzing too much, I see an issue between Friday and tonight. Fund shares gained today, but my total earnings went down. And why do people feel a need to lecture someone who points out an issue. It helped me
If he wants to check his find every night, what do you care.

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MP123
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by MP123 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:13 pm

It does make me wonder about what NAV they used for purchases or redemptions on that date. Although that may be handled in a different system.

Lefty517
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by Lefty517 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:45 am

The reason why I review the accounts each evening is that I manage $3 million invested at Vanguard, accounts for family members. While that may appear very hands on, I take the responsibility of managing the money very seriously with fully accountability. I'm a retired chief credit officer who managed a loan portfolio of $12 Billion in loans. Data integrity is important to me and when I see errors in the data reporting I get concerned. Vanguard has $4+ trillion under management, and I expect their systems to get it right before posting the closing numbers. Maybe my concerns are more than what others may have, but I have been a Vanguard investor for 25+ years, and when closing numbers are posted I expect accuracy from a firm that I have entrusted with my money. The answers from Vanguard to my concerns was unacceptable, but when you see a fund down 2.90% and then corrected, and a few weeks later see the same fund up .30% and again corrected to unchanged from the prior day you begin to ask questions.

tibbitts
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by tibbitts » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:36 am

I try to check my accounts almost daily but then when I lose internet access for a while, I just hope for the best. I just check at Vanguard because I have it collect all my other account values (Chase, etc.) and can check in one place to see if something is obviously off. I do think it might be easier to correct errors when you find them earlier. While most of us didn't check daily before the internet, it was more difficult for other unauthorized people to access our accounts back then, too.

I don't check minor details but think it's fine that other people do that. With thirty-plus funds I won't notice if one is a bit off.

It's interesting whether transactions are done with the correct information. They appear to happen much later than initial pricing, but if a problem exists for 24hrs, then I don't know.

Also does anybody check if the prices on the brokerage side are the same as on the mutual fund side at any given time? Enough people have both accounts that they could check I'd imagine.

Sidney
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by Sidney » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:36 am

It may well be that Vanguard is not the place for your investments. It is my impression that posters on this forum who tend to be more active traders don't use Vanguard much. Many of the ones who are predominantly VG platform users tend to be passive investors. I think this shows up in reactions to the "upgrade" to a brokerage account. For very passive investors, some of the quirks and drawbacks of the brokerage platform tend to be less significant than they do to investors who trade more frequently.
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jeffyscott
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by jeffyscott » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:46 am

Pajamas wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:52 pm
Lefty517 wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:37 pm
I question is Vanguard too big ?
What is the relationship between Vanguard being "big" and errors in reporting prices?
Perhaps the question should be is Vanguard too cheap?
press on, regardless - John C. Bogle

tibbitts
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by tibbitts » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:57 am

Sidney wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:36 am
It may well be that Vanguard is not the place for your investments. It is my impression that posters on this forum who tend to be more active traders don't use Vanguard much. Many of the ones who are predominantly VG platform users tend to be passive investors. I think this shows up in reactions to the "upgrade" to a brokerage account. For very passive investors, some of the quirks and drawbacks of the brokerage platform tend to be less significant than they do to investors who trade more frequently.
I don't think there are any comments about trading on the thread, but yes some of us will try to stick to the mutual fund platform as long as we can, because for some of us it seems to have more features and fewer reported problems. I'm sticking to my mutual fund account as long as it's more functional and simpler for me than the brokerage platform, but am sympathetic to Vanguard wanting everyone on one platform.

But transactions happen a dozen-plus times a month for many of us on the mutual fund platform, even if we never log on or intentionally initiate any activity, so it would be important that they happen at the correct price.

JohnDindex
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by JohnDindex » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:09 am

Lefty517 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:45 am
The reason why I review the accounts each evening is that I manage $3 million invested at Vanguard, accounts for family members. While that may appear very hands on, I take the responsibility of managing the money very seriously with fully accountability. I'm a retired chief credit officer who managed a loan portfolio of $12 Billion in loans. Data integrity is important to me and when I see errors in the data reporting I get concerned. Vanguard has $4+ trillion under management, and I expect their systems to get it right before posting the closing numbers. Maybe my concerns are more than what others may have, but I have been a Vanguard investor for 25+ years, and when closing numbers are posted I expect accuracy from a firm that I have entrusted with my money. The answers from Vanguard to my concerns was unacceptable, but when you see a fund down 2.90% and then corrected, and a few weeks later see the same fund up .30% and again corrected to unchanged from the prior day you begin to ask questions.
We recently left vanguard after several errors that I would rather not list here. I am still dealing with tax reporting issues from vanguard, which they have acknowledged is their mistake and are working to resolve.

For years and years I never once spoke to them on the phone, and then I had a few routine activities..rollovers etc and it became apparent how unqualified some of their associates are. Great funds, horrible brokerage firm IMO. Fidelity has been a night and day experience. Wells Fargo is actually pretty good too, it gets very little love on here but has been good to us. There are so many options now, I don't think it is unreasonable to demand a first class experience. If you are not comfortable with ETF's, you might be better staying put or be ok with a Higher ER for investor shares.

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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by bondsr4me » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:37 am

Data concerns....

If anyone is truly concerned about VG's data integrity, if it keeps you from sleeping or really bothers and upsets you, the best thing you can do is leave Vanguard. If I ever felt that I had to constantly check my broker's data accuracy/integrity, I would leave in a heartbeat. Trust is paramount.
The broker is paid plenty to, among many other things, keep accurate records. If they can't do that, fire them.

There are plenty of other brokerage firms with much better back office (accounting/bookkeeping) and customer service operations.
Fidelity, Schwab come to mind.

Have a great day.

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Doom&Gloom
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by Doom&Gloom » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:06 am

Lefty517 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:45 am
The reason why I review the accounts each evening is that I manage $3 million invested at Vanguard, accounts for family members. While that may appear very hands on, I take the responsibility of managing the money very seriously with fully accountability. I'm a retired chief credit officer who managed a loan portfolio of $12 Billion in loans. Data integrity is important to me and when I see errors in the data reporting I get concerned. Vanguard has $4+ trillion under management, and I expect their systems to get it right before posting the closing numbers. Maybe my concerns are more than what others may have, but I have been a Vanguard investor for 25+ years, and when closing numbers are posted I expect accuracy from a firm that I have entrusted with my money. The answers from Vanguard to my concerns was unacceptable, but when you see a fund down 2.90% and then corrected, and a few weeks later see the same fund up .30% and again corrected to unchanged from the prior day you begin to ask questions.
I'm surprised that you haven't seen this before. IIRC there was a similar "incident" ~6-12 months ago with at least one fund and there was a thread about it here as well. Perhaps that occurrence did not include any of the funds you monitor. Sounds like a lot of work and worry, but to each his own.

dbr
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by dbr » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:19 am

I agree it is simply unacceptable to publish wrong data. What accounts for this? Maybe the problem is not that Vangaurd is too big but that they are not big enough (enough resources) to manage the operation.

arf30
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by arf30 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:19 am

This is the type of glitch that people don't take seriously - until it affects their RMDs, automatic withdrawls, or taxes.

H-Town
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by H-Town » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:58 am

Lefty517 wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:37 pm
A few weeks ago the Wellesley Income Fund and Wellington Fund incorrectly reported large losses that day. The Wellesley Income Admiral reported for the day that the fund lost 2.90%. When I saw the loss I called Flagship service and asked if the loss was an error because a number of the Balance funds that day reported small gains. I did not received an explanation for the error instead I was lectured on the composition of the Wellesley Income Fund and how the bond portion is impacted when interest rates go up. No matter how many times I try to cut through the lecture, the rep pushed back as if I was a new investor. It was someone on this forum who reported that Vanguard disclosed there was an error for the final reporting for both Wellesley and Wellington and that the correct numbers would be posted by 8 PM. The numbers were corrected and the loss that day was minimal.

Last Friday evening 5/8 at approximately 6:15 I logged into my accounts and recorded my investment numbers on a spreadsheet in Tax Managed Balance (VTMFX), Balance Index (VBINX) and Wellesley Admiral (VWIAX) for the close of 5/8 as I do each evening. Each one of the funds reported a gain from the prior day, with Wellesley up .29 the most that day of the 3 funds. On Saturday I was doing calculations for my accounts, logged on to review my accounts and noticed that all three funds are now reporting different numbers than was was posted Friday evening. As an example the gain reported for Wellesley Income Admiral is now 0 yet Friday evening the close reported a gain of .29.

Today I contacted my flagship representative and reviewed my findings and asked for an explanation as to what occurred Friday evening and questioned why were the numbers changed . After a few minutes researching he told me yes, there was an error in reporting for the close. I still cannot believe the reason I was given, but I was told " numbers were posted until the correct numbers were posted" I responded that the answer made no sense and was unacceptable. I asked the representative to convey to Executive management that I'm losing confidence for the reporting of the closing numbers. I question the data for the close of 5/8 as to which numbers are correct for the 3 funds in my account ? This situation is unacceptable, deeply troubles me, because I now have 2 instances where the reporting of closing numbers in a span of 4 weeks was incorrectly reported. Data integrity is number one priority, and if I lose confidence in the reporting of closing numbers, and cannot obtain a satisfactory explanation, then maybe it is time to move on. I question is Vanguard too big ?
Yeah, this is not a big issue. There so much that Vanguard (or any mutual fund companies) can do when they are required to disclose closing price at 6 PM ET. Prices of some of the components can change after 6 PM ET. Corrections will be made after numbers are finalized. There are checks and audits in place to make sure correct numbers were posted.

So again, "numbers were posted until the correct numbers were posted" pretty much sum it up.

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jeffyscott
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by jeffyscott » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:15 am

dbr wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:19 am
I agree it is simply unacceptable to publish wrong data. What accounts for this? Maybe the problem is not that Vangaurd is too big but that they are not big enough (enough resources) to manage the operation.
I think that is a more polite way of asking "Are they too cheap?" :?:

IOW, are they big in terms of assets managed and/or number of accounts with the level of staff and other resources that they currently have?
press on, regardless - John C. Bogle

dbr
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by dbr » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:19 am

jeffyscott wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:15 am
dbr wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:19 am
I agree it is simply unacceptable to publish wrong data. What accounts for this? Maybe the problem is not that Vangaurd is too big but that they are not big enough (enough resources) to manage the operation.
I think that is a more polite way of asking "Are they too cheap?" :?:

IOW, are they big in terms of assets managed and/or number of accounts with the level of staff and other resources that they currently have?
Yes, that would be about the sentiment expressed.

WillRetire
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by WillRetire » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:54 pm

I own mutual funds with multiple companies, and check the prices regularly. Some funds companies post their prices late (after 6:00PM ET). Most post before 6:00PM ET.

The last price is date & time stamped.

Under NO circumstances should a mutual fund company post a phony price as a placeholder to beat a time deadline.
More likely, the Vanguard rep is making up an explanation.
Either way, it reflects poorly on Vanguard.

This situation of Vanguard reporting phony prices, or reps saying they do, deserves to be reported to the SEC.

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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by jalbert » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:09 pm

So far, Vanguard is the only large institution that hasn’t screwed up something in our accounts. Fingers crossed.
Risk is not a guarantor of return.

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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by jebmke » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:24 pm

WillRetire wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:54 pm
Under NO circumstances should a mutual fund company post a phony price as a placeholder to beat a time deadline.
I agree; I would be perfectly happy if they waited and rolled their web site much later to make sure the update was correct. Maybe they should push their roll to something like 3am the next day or something like that. In most cases, I view the transaction confirmation and the statement as the official record and the web site as their best attempt to show me what the daily situation is.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

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dccboone
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by dccboone » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:29 pm

Lefty517 you are unequivocal in your conclusion that both of these occurrences were the result of data errors by Vanguard. Perhaps you may be right. What evidence do you have that there were no changes in the final closing numbers from the 71 company stocks currently held by Wellesley or the 1044 bonds? And from the standpoint of data integrity, would a mutual fund like Wellesley be required to adjust their closing price if any one of the 1,115 holdings in their portfolio adjusted their price after the close? Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Broken Man 1999
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:00 pm

jebmke wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:24 pm
WillRetire wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:54 pm
Under NO circumstances should a mutual fund company post a phony price as a placeholder to beat a time deadline.
I agree; I would be perfectly happy if they waited and rolled their web site much later to make sure the update was correct. Maybe they should push their roll to something like 3am the next day or something like that. In most cases, I view the transaction confirmation and the statement as the official record and the web site as their best attempt to show me what the daily situation is.
Yeah, me too.

I have seen over the years a couple of strange things. I pretty much shrugged, went to bed and all was fine in the morning. I have seen similar issues with credit cards online account activities.

I'm sure those who trade probably aren't as cavalier as I am about the various burps and hiccups experienced over the years, and I certainly see their point(s). But I do know perfection is impossible, despite gallant efforts by those involved.

I am glad I have simplified our portfolio, with more efforts to come. Should be much easier to keep a diligent eye on things.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven than I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by yousha » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:28 pm

I'm thrilled that I was able to retrieve information from various bloggers re: Data Concerns. I've tried several times to get information to not avail. So happy I joined. Thanks!

FrankLUSMC
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by FrankLUSMC » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:41 pm

I don't look at any funds until after 9PM, seems some take longer to get the final NAV, especially if international funds/stocks and bonds are involved in the holdings.

jebmke
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by jebmke » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:51 pm

Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:00 pm
I'm sure those who trade probably aren't as cavalier as I am about the various burps and hiccups experienced over the years, and I certainly see their point(s). But I do know perfection is impossible, despite gallant efforts by those involved.
Yes, I think the impact of their systems varies depends on how frequent you interact with them. For many years we had the bulk of our assets in a pension and profit sharing scheme at my wife's company that only provided valuations once a year. That sort of lulled me into more passive attention. I mainly go in to get cash once a month (I'm retired) and to make sure there are no transactions I can't account for with my confirmations (ie, someone else doing things in my account).
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

alex_686
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by alex_686 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:54 pm

FrankLUSMC wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:41 pm
I don't look at any funds until after 9PM, seems some take longer to get the final NAV, especially if international funds/stocks and bonds are involved in the holdings.
That should not matter. NAV for mutual funds must be struck by 5 p.m. eastern. If it is international and the overseas markets are still open you still need to strike the NAV. Now, how long that takes to peculate though the Vanguard system is another question and it is the one that I think is tripping up the OP.

FYI, bond funds are dead easy.

FrankLUSMC
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Re: Vanguard -Data Concerns

Post by FrankLUSMC » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:00 pm

alex_686 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:54 pm
FrankLUSMC wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:41 pm
I don't look at any funds until after 9PM, seems some take longer to get the final NAV, especially if international funds/stocks and bonds are involved in the holdings.
That should not matter. NAV for mutual funds must be struck by 5 p.m. eastern. If it is international and the overseas markets are still open you still need to strike the NAV. Now, how long that takes to peculate though the Vanguard system is another question and it is the one that I think is tripping up the OP.

FYI, bond funds are dead easy.
I'm not arguing the point, but what I've seen is true. As the original poster pointed out.

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