Is there a boglehead muscle car?

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H-Town
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by H-Town » Mon May 14, 2018 1:28 pm

ronteller11 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:25 am
Owning a muscle car doesn’t seem to be a very economical thing to do. But for those that do, which is the best choice? I have been looking at the more fuel efficient v6/ecoboost, love the look of the challenger/charger but not too excited about Chrysler reputation, although it seems to have come a long way from where it was before. The Charger has always been my favorite car, but I don’t think I could live with myself if I bought one and it crapped out on me.

The mustang is popular and seems to have the best rating reliability wise, although the Mustang is almost too popular to me and doesntt stand out as much on the road to me as say a Camaro, challenger or charger.

Of course there are the more powerful options (GT, R/T, Hellcat) but I’m looking to stay below $25k. Plus it is mostly the appearance of muscle without the performance/noise I am chasing after
If you're looking for a daily drive, V6 is a good compromise. Cheaper to operate and still fun to drive.

Those depreciates quickly so you can find great deals getting 2-3 years old with low mileage. Way better deal than buy a new boring Camry.

randomguy
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by randomguy » Mon May 14, 2018 1:41 pm

alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:25 pm
Doom&Gloom wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:11 pm


What I would not do is settle for something short of what I really wanted or reach for something I could not afford. I would choose to defer that luxury until I didn't have to ask about "boglehead muscle cars" and could get what I wanted. Good luck in your search!
I suspect the OP would consider an economy car with an aftermarket muffler (commonly known in car circles as a "fart cannon") something short of what they really want.

Seeing as the OP is more interested in the look of a muscle car than the performance and cares about reliability, I submit an 3-5 year old v6 Mustang or Camaro is a cheap and relatively reliable way to do it. Pendants will call these "Pony Cars" but I submit they are close enough to what the OP is looking for. There's a reason why common cars are common.
Get the v4. When people give you a hard time point out it will crush all those 1960s v8s.

OP main criteria seems to be looks. Pick one and go with it. These aren't expensive cars till you get to the higher level trims.

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MP123
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by MP123 » Mon May 14, 2018 1:42 pm

1967 Camaro SS with a big block.

A little expensive but you'll make money over the long run so it's Bogleheaded. They just don't make them like that anymore. It would definitely take care of the performance/noise you're chasing after. Or at least the noise! :twisted:

NHRATA01
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by NHRATA01 » Mon May 14, 2018 1:53 pm

Can't go wrong with picking up a current gen V6 Camaro, particularly used for a deal. 335hp and a great handling chassis. Runs the quarter (~13.8@102ish) only a bit slower than the late 90s LS1 cars did, and about as fast as the early/mid 90s LT1 cars.

alfaspider
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by alfaspider » Mon May 14, 2018 1:54 pm

randomguy wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:41 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:25 pm
Doom&Gloom wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:11 pm


What I would not do is settle for something short of what I really wanted or reach for something I could not afford. I would choose to defer that luxury until I didn't have to ask about "boglehead muscle cars" and could get what I wanted. Good luck in your search!
I suspect the OP would consider an economy car with an aftermarket muffler (commonly known in car circles as a "fart cannon") something short of what they really want.

Seeing as the OP is more interested in the look of a muscle car than the performance and cares about reliability, I submit an 3-5 year old v6 Mustang or Camaro is a cheap and relatively reliable way to do it. Pendants will call these "Pony Cars" but I submit they are close enough to what the OP is looking for. There's a reason why common cars are common.
Get the v4. When people give you a hard time point out it will crush all those 1960s v8s.

OP main criteria seems to be looks. Pick one and go with it. These aren't expensive cars till you get to the higher level trims.
If there's a v4 Mustang out there, that would certainly be an unusual motor swap! The only v4 I am aware of are some vintage Saabs from the 60s. What you may be thinking of is the inline turbocharged four cylinder. It's not a bad motor, but it's likely going to be a bit less reliable than the old standby 6 (which I believe has been discontinued).

jehovasfitness
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by jehovasfitness » Mon May 14, 2018 1:56 pm

jeffG wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:38 am
If it’s going to be a summer car, a C5 corvette is a good choice. You can get a immaculate, low mileage, 6 speed convertible for under $15K, have a 170 mph car that still gets 30 mpg on the highway. If you want something newer, 2011 or newer mustang Gt’s are good choices, just look for the garage Queen not the daily driver.
Where do you live? You're not gonna get that for under $15k on the east coast.

I bought a 2004 z06 last year w/23k miles for $20k and that was a bargain imo

now, if you're talking 100k miles perhaps

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El Greco
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by El Greco » Mon May 14, 2018 2:40 pm

gundlached wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:13 pm
El Greco wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:57 am
Boglehead muscle car?

A 25 year old Toyota Camry with a spoiler.
In "champagne" beige
NICE!

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segfault
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by segfault » Mon May 14, 2018 2:50 pm

I bought a used 2011 Mustang GT Premium with under 30,000 miles on it last summer. That would easily be in your price range. It needed new tires but was otherwise in great condition. It is a weekend car for me--I'll probably put 3,000 miles a year or so on it. The seating position causes my left knee to ache on long trips, so it's definitely not a road trip car. It's very enjoyable to drive. The 2011 and newer Mustang GTs have a 5 liter engine--that's the one you want.

I also considered a Corvette, but the ones in my price range were much older and had more miles than the Mustang I ended up getting. I think I made the right choice.

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midareff
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by midareff » Mon May 14, 2018 3:59 pm

alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:15 am
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:32 am
anything AMG
I'd submit a new AMG (especially anything other than a C63 or E63) is literally the opposite of a bogglehead muscle car. It's the car-guy version of paying Edward Jones a 2% AUM to buy loaded mutual funds :mrgreen:
I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. If you are retired and can write the check, and it puts a big smile on your face .. goforit, just like two room suites on a European River Cruise. There is enough other stuff on the road that I don't need to be a me too with another Mustang or MoPar product..... and no offense to those that have one.

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Kenkat
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by Kenkat » Mon May 14, 2018 4:03 pm

alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:25 pm
Doom&Gloom wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:11 pm


What I would not do is settle for something short of what I really wanted or reach for something I could not afford. I would choose to defer that luxury until I didn't have to ask about "boglehead muscle cars" and could get what I wanted. Good luck in your search!
I suspect the OP would consider an economy car with an aftermarket muffler (commonly known in car circles as a "fart cannon") something short of what they really want.

Seeing as the OP is more interested in the look of a muscle car than the performance and cares about reliability, I submit an 3-5 year old v6 Mustang or Camaro is a cheap and relatively reliable way to do it. Pendants will call these "Pony Cars" but I submit they are close enough to what the OP is looking for. There's a reason why common cars are common.
I bought a 2014 V6 Camaro last spring as a daily driver. Low miles, certified and about 1/2 the cost of the equivalent 2017 Camaro at that time. At 323hp, it has plenty of power for my needs - in typical driving, I can barely use that, much less what the V8s put out. Very happy with mine overall.

Don’t get me wrong, someday I’d love to have a V8 Camaro or Mustang I could keep in the garage for the occasional drive, but for a daily driver, the V6 and now Turbo 4 options do offer good value, especially bought used when someone else has taken the initial depreciation hit.

fourwheelcycle
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by fourwheelcycle » Mon May 14, 2018 4:06 pm

midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:32 am
anything AMG
How about anything with an M in the model name?

Texanbybirth
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by Texanbybirth » Mon May 14, 2018 4:09 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:14 am
I think it's about "investing advice inspired by Jack Bogle," not fashion or lifestyle advice.

But, of course, according to the Vanguard cost comparison tool, the savings on 0.15% expense ratio instead of 0.75%, for a year 2050 target-date fund, on a $500,000 portfolio, over 10 years, assuming 6% annual returns...

Image

..."could" create $51,593.93 more wealth, which is more than the difference between a Toyota Yaris and a Ford Mustang Shelby GT350.
As someone who drives a Yaris, I can truly relate to this example. Of course, I have no desire to ever own a Shelby GT350, but at least I know I could. :D

And the bolded above has always been my viewpoint of this website, too. There are many lifestyle choices I do not agree with around here, but I keep coming back for the rich investing discussions.

Lynette
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by Lynette » Mon May 14, 2018 4:11 pm

deleted
Last edited by Lynette on Tue May 15, 2018 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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midareff
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by midareff » Mon May 14, 2018 4:18 pm

fourwheelcycle wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:06 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:32 am
anything AMG
How about anything with an M in the model name?
Yup .... test drove the M3 on my way to a decision. They qualify too.

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midareff
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by midareff » Mon May 14, 2018 4:20 pm

midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:59 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:15 am
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:32 am
anything AMG
I'd submit a new AMG (especially anything other than a C63 or E63) is literally the opposite of a bogglehead muscle car. It's the car-guy version of paying Edward Jones a 2% AUM to buy loaded mutual funds :mrgreen:
I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. If you are retired and can write the check, and it puts a big smile on your face .. goforit, just like two room suites on a European River Cruise. There is enough other stuff on the road that I don't need to be a me too with another Mustang or MoPar product..... and no offense to those that have one. Frankly though, even looked at a Alfa Guila Quad... now your shooting craps with Cramer alfaspyder.

chevca
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by chevca » Mon May 14, 2018 4:29 pm

ronteller11 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:25 am
The Charger has always been my favorite car, but I don’t think I could live with myself if I bought one and it crapped out on me.

I’m looking to stay below $25k. Plus it is mostly the appearance of muscle without the performance/noise I am chasing after
Easy then.... A V6 Charger. If you can get one with AWD, that would make it Boglehead like for the utility of AWD. :happy

Although, I don't know why you would want a car like that without the performance or noise? That's kind of the point!

The newer Chrysler stuff is plenty reliable. Don't avoid their cars because of what their old reputation was.

And WOW, this thread is funny to read as an actual muscle car fan!! The typical Boglehead is very out of touch with what that means... and cars in general. Did I see V4 mentioned somewhere? :oops: Makes me wonder why some folks would even comment in a thread like this....

alfaspider
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by alfaspider » Mon May 14, 2018 4:30 pm

midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:20 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:59 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:15 am
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:32 am
anything AMG
I'd submit a new AMG (especially anything other than a C63 or E63) is literally the opposite of a bogglehead muscle car. It's the car-guy version of paying Edward Jones a 2% AUM to buy loaded mutual funds :mrgreen:
I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. If you are retired and can write the check, and it puts a big smile on your face .. goforit, just like two room suites on a European River Cruise. There is enough other stuff on the road that I don't need to be a me too with another Mustang or MoPar product..... and no offense to those that have one. Frankly though, even looked at a Alfa Guila Quad... now your shooting craps with Cramer alfaspyder.
I love my vintage Alfa, but I would be the first to admit that buying a Giulia Quad would be a terrible financial decision :happy Plus, I submit you are straying far from the "Muscle Car" genre once you start talking about M3s and Giulias. While AMG have a reputation as being overpowered barn-burners, the M3/Giulia Quad are more in the balanced sports car tradition. That said, AMG is getting better in the handling department and the competitors are coming up on power. In any event, all of the luxury performance cars these days are a LONG way from the traditional giant engine in a family car muscle car.

Like I said in my first post, if you want a powerful car on a budget, the way to do it is to build one.
Last edited by alfaspider on Mon May 14, 2018 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cycle
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by Cycle » Mon May 14, 2018 4:31 pm

The bus I ride has a lot of horsepower.

alfaspider
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by alfaspider » Mon May 14, 2018 4:34 pm

Cycle wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:31 pm
The bus I ride has a lot of horsepower.
Most buses have less horsepower than a top-trim Camry these days. However, they have a boatload of torque. A bus engine might have only 250hp but 800ft/lb of torque. A v6 Camry has 300hp but only 267 ft/lb.

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midareff
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by midareff » Mon May 14, 2018 4:38 pm

alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:30 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:20 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:59 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:15 am
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:32 am
anything AMG
I'd submit a new AMG (especially anything other than a C63 or E63) is literally the opposite of a bogglehead muscle car. It's the car-guy version of paying Edward Jones a 2% AUM to buy loaded mutual funds :mrgreen:
I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. If you are retired and can write the check, and it puts a big smile on your face .. goforit, just like two room suites on a European River Cruise. There is enough other stuff on the road that I don't need to be a me too with another Mustang or MoPar product..... and no offense to those that have one. Frankly though, even looked at a Alfa Guila Quad... now your shooting craps with Cramer alfaspyder.
I love my vintage Alfa, but I would be the first to admit that buying a Giulia Quad would be a terrible financial decision :happy Plus, I submit you are straying far from the "Muscle Car" genre once you start talking about M3s and Giulias. While AMG have a reputation as being overpowered barn-burners, the M3/Giulia Quad are more in the balanced sports car tradition. That said, AMG is getting better in the handling department and the competitors are coming up on power. In any event, all of the luxury performance cars these days are a LONG way from the traditional giant engine in a family car muscle car.

Like I said in my first post, if you want a powerful car on a budget, the way to do it is to build one.
Again, I guess we will disagree. AFAIC, anything that can turn a sub 4.0 0-60 time is a bona fide muscle car, which is different than having a zillion horsepower to spin or smoke tires. Perhaps you should go test drive a new AMG.

H-Town
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by H-Town » Mon May 14, 2018 4:40 pm

chevca wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:29 pm

And WOW, this thread is funny to read as an actual muscle car fan!! The typical Boglehead is very out of touch with what that means... and cars in general. Did I see V4 mentioned somewhere? :oops: Makes me wonder why some folks would even comment in a thread like this....
LOL. V4.

chevca
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by chevca » Mon May 14, 2018 4:45 pm

midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:38 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:30 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:20 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:59 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:15 am


I'd submit a new AMG (especially anything other than a C63 or E63) is literally the opposite of a bogglehead muscle car. It's the car-guy version of paying Edward Jones a 2% AUM to buy loaded mutual funds :mrgreen:
I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. If you are retired and can write the check, and it puts a big smile on your face .. goforit, just like two room suites on a European River Cruise. There is enough other stuff on the road that I don't need to be a me too with another Mustang or MoPar product..... and no offense to those that have one. Frankly though, even looked at a Alfa Guila Quad... now your shooting craps with Cramer alfaspyder.
I love my vintage Alfa, but I would be the first to admit that buying a Giulia Quad would be a terrible financial decision :happy Plus, I submit you are straying far from the "Muscle Car" genre once you start talking about M3s and Giulias. While AMG have a reputation as being overpowered barn-burners, the M3/Giulia Quad are more in the balanced sports car tradition. That said, AMG is getting better in the handling department and the competitors are coming up on power. In any event, all of the luxury performance cars these days are a LONG way from the traditional giant engine in a family car muscle car.

Like I said in my first post, if you want a powerful car on a budget, the way to do it is to build one.
Again, I guess we will disagree. AFAIC, anything that can turn a sub 4.0 0-60 time is a bona fide muscle car, which is different than having a zillion horsepower to spin or smoke tires. Perhaps you should go test drive a new AMG.
You're simply making up your own definition of muscle car. Not every fast car is a muscle car. Feel free to disagree, but you're wrong. :wink:

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whodidntante
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by whodidntante » Mon May 14, 2018 5:04 pm

alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:54 pm
randomguy wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:41 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:25 pm
Doom&Gloom wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:11 pm


What I would not do is settle for something short of what I really wanted or reach for something I could not afford. I would choose to defer that luxury until I didn't have to ask about "boglehead muscle cars" and could get what I wanted. Good luck in your search!
I suspect the OP would consider an economy car with an aftermarket muffler (commonly known in car circles as a "fart cannon") something short of what they really want.

Seeing as the OP is more interested in the look of a muscle car than the performance and cares about reliability, I submit an 3-5 year old v6 Mustang or Camaro is a cheap and relatively reliable way to do it. Pendants will call these "Pony Cars" but I submit they are close enough to what the OP is looking for. There's a reason why common cars are common.
Get the v4. When people give you a hard time point out it will crush all those 1960s v8s.

OP main criteria seems to be looks. Pick one and go with it. These aren't expensive cars till you get to the higher level trims.
If there's a v4 Mustang out there, that would certainly be an unusual motor swap! The only v4 I am aware of are some vintage Saabs from the 60s. What you may be thinking of is the inline turbocharged four cylinder. It's not a bad motor, but it's likely going to be a bit less reliable than the old standby 6 (which I believe has been discontinued).
The ecoboost I-4 will also not crush all the 60's v8s. A GT500 will spank it, as will a few non-Mustang cars of that decade.

That'll be three Hail Shelby's. Go in peace, my son.

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midareff
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by midareff » Mon May 14, 2018 5:50 pm

chevca wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:45 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:38 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:30 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:20 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:59 pm


I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. If you are retired and can write the check, and it puts a big smile on your face .. goforit, just like two room suites on a European River Cruise. There is enough other stuff on the road that I don't need to be a me too with another Mustang or MoPar product..... and no offense to those that have one. Frankly though, even looked at a Alfa Guila Quad... now your shooting craps with Cramer alfaspyder.
I love my vintage Alfa, but I would be the first to admit that buying a Giulia Quad would be a terrible financial decision :happy Plus, I submit you are straying far from the "Muscle Car" genre once you start talking about M3s and Giulias. While AMG have a reputation as being overpowered barn-burners, the M3/Giulia Quad are more in the balanced sports car tradition. That said, AMG is getting better in the handling department and the competitors are coming up on power. In any event, all of the luxury performance cars these days are a LONG way from the traditional giant engine in a family car muscle car.

Like I said in my first post, if you want a powerful car on a budget, the way to do it is to build one.
Again, I guess we will disagree. AFAIC, anything that can turn a sub 4.0 0-60 time is a bona fide muscle car, which is different than having a zillion horsepower to spin or smoke tires. Perhaps you should go test drive a new AMG.
You're simply making up your own definition of muscle car. Not every fast car is a muscle car. Feel free to disagree, but you're wrong. :wink:
OK, sooo.... , what's your definition? As long as I'm wrong I'd like to know why. Please share your criteria. Wikipedia has a definition...
"Muscle car
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Muscle car is an American term used to refer to a variety of high-performance automobiles.[1] The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines muscle cars as "any of a group of American-made 2-door sports cars with powerful engines designed for high-performance driving."[2] A large V8 engine is fitted in a 2-door, rear wheel drive, family-style compact, mid-size or full-size car designed for four or more passengers. Sold at an affordable price, muscle cars are intended for street use and occasional drag racing.[3][4][5][6] They are distinct from two-seat sports cars and expensive 2+2 GTs intended for high-speed touring and road racing.

If we take definition 1, I'm trying to think of something besides a Viper or a Vette and the Viper (I believe) is discontinued. Definition 2, would seem to include an AMG Coupe (or sedan) as an included vehicle. 4 liter V-8, compact family style, sets 5 when needed, maybe not so much on the affordable scale when loaded with electronics and it's even assembled in Alabama. Box stock 4 door C63S is about a quarter mile 11.5 car, E63S is even faster..
Last edited by midareff on Mon May 14, 2018 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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corn18
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by corn18 » Mon May 14, 2018 6:05 pm

I think a true muscle car needs a live rear axle. Not many of those left in the modern era. Maybe the Dodge Demon is a good BH muscle car?

Teague
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by Teague » Mon May 14, 2018 6:25 pm

corn18 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:05 pm
I think a true muscle car needs a live rear axle. Not many of those left in the modern era. Maybe the Dodge Demon is a good BH muscle car?
Not sure the Demon meets the Wikipedia part about Sold at an affordable price, muscle cars are intended for street use and occasional drag racing.

I know the MSRP is only about 80 grand or so, but they are not selling for remotely close to such a modest price.
Semper Augustus

chevca
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by chevca » Mon May 14, 2018 6:30 pm

For us purists out there, the Viper and Corvette aren't even muscle cars... not enough seats.

Also for us purists, the simple definition is the American brand, mid-sized, two door coupe with a big engine in it.

Granted, that is tough to come by nowadays, so the definition gets skewed. But, we don't need to go to the ends of the earth to name all the muscle cars. Then we just start listing all the performance cars. Yesterday's pony cars like the Camaro, Mustang, and Challenger are probably today's best match to a muscle car. Or, we could allow some sedans in there like the Charger and the Chevy SS.

alfaspider
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by alfaspider » Mon May 14, 2018 6:31 pm

midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:38 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:30 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:20 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:59 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:15 am


I'd submit a new AMG (especially anything other than a C63 or E63) is literally the opposite of a bogglehead muscle car. It's the car-guy version of paying Edward Jones a 2% AUM to buy loaded mutual funds :mrgreen:
I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. If you are retired and can write the check, and it puts a big smile on your face .. goforit, just like two room suites on a European River Cruise. There is enough other stuff on the road that I don't need to be a me too with another Mustang or MoPar product..... and no offense to those that have one. Frankly though, even looked at a Alfa Guila Quad... now your shooting craps with Cramer alfaspyder.
I love my vintage Alfa, but I would be the first to admit that buying a Giulia Quad would be a terrible financial decision :happy Plus, I submit you are straying far from the "Muscle Car" genre once you start talking about M3s and Giulias. While AMG have a reputation as being overpowered barn-burners, the M3/Giulia Quad are more in the balanced sports car tradition. That said, AMG is getting better in the handling department and the competitors are coming up on power. In any event, all of the luxury performance cars these days are a LONG way from the traditional giant engine in a family car muscle car.

Like I said in my first post, if you want a powerful car on a budget, the way to do it is to build one.
Again, I guess we will disagree. AFAIC, anything that can turn a sub 4.0 0-60 time is a bona fide muscle car, which is different than having a zillion horsepower to spin or smoke tires. Perhaps you should go test drive a new AMG.
There’s no doubt AMGs are very quick car, and I’m certainly not knocking them- only their cost and horrific depreciation.

With respect to Miriam Webster, a “Muscle Car” is indented to apply to a 4+ seat performance car with the predominant characteristic of having a lot of power, traditionally at the expense of things like braking and handling. They were the product of the horsepower wars in the 60s where even sedate family cars were offered with very powerful v8 motors (think Chevy Chevelle), but usually with the family car suspension and brakes. This is separate from the European sports car tradition that emphasized handling over power (think MGs). I would argue that the Dodge Challenger/ Chargers are really some of the only true “muscle cars” left. While they handle far better than their 60s forebearers, they still emphasize power over all other characteristics and have family car roots.
Last edited by alfaspider on Mon May 14, 2018 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by alfaspider » Mon May 14, 2018 6:32 pm

corn18 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:05 pm
I think a true muscle car needs a live rear axle. Not many of those left in the modern era. Maybe the Dodge Demon is a good BH muscle car?
The Demon does not have a live rear axle though.

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by surfinagin » Mon May 14, 2018 6:33 pm

1970 Firebird Formula 455 -restomod.

Watch Barret-Jackson or Mecum televised auctions for ideas -you'll see everything.

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by badbreath » Mon May 14, 2018 6:39 pm

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by corn18 » Mon May 14, 2018 6:40 pm

alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:32 pm
corn18 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:05 pm
I think a true muscle car needs a live rear axle. Not many of those left in the modern era. Maybe the Dodge Demon is a good BH muscle car?
The Demon does not have a live rear axle though.
Drat. Then it's out.

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by Cycle » Mon May 14, 2018 6:43 pm

alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:34 pm
Cycle wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:31 pm
The bus I ride has a lot of horsepower.
Most buses have less horsepower than a top-trim Camry these days. However, they have a boatload of torque. A bus engine might have only 250hp but 800ft/lb of torque. A v6 Camry has 300hp but only 267 ft/lb.
Cummins motorcoach ISM 450 is 450hp with 1550 ft/lbs of torque. The express bus I ride has a lot of horsepower and torque.

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by nisiprius » Mon May 14, 2018 6:44 pm

To the car buffs: does a Tesla Roadster with "Ludicrous Mode" (0-60 in 2.5 seconds) count as a "muscle car?" If not, why not? Does it have to use 1960s technology to be considered a "muscle car?"
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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by MP123 » Mon May 14, 2018 7:03 pm

True muscle cars were built in Detroit in the 60s and 70s.

Anything else is just a modern reinterpretation at best. No import can ever be a muscle car although they will outperform them easily of course.

It's not just about speed, and certainly not about handling. More about the sounds and vibrations and the 6 mpg...

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by chevca » Mon May 14, 2018 7:18 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:44 pm
To the car buffs: does a Tesla Roadster with "Ludicrous Mode" (0-60 in 2.5 seconds) count as a "muscle car?" If not, why not? Does it have to use 1960s technology to be considered a "muscle car?"
How much do those cost? They're supposed to be somewhat affordable also to be a muscle car. I don't think the Tesla's are that affordable.

No, they don't have to have 1960s technology. A lot of those old cars are updated with modern stuff under the hood and wheels. They're still muscle cars. Part of the fun of muscle cars was/is the ease of modifying them to be louder and faster.

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by Doom&Gloom » Mon May 14, 2018 7:58 pm

MP123 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:03 pm
True muscle cars were built in Detroit in the 60s and 70s.

Anything else is just a modern reinterpretation at best. No import can ever be a muscle car although they will outperform them easily of course.

It's not just about speed, and certainly not about handling. More about the sounds and vibrations and the 6 mpg...
6 mpg? Hardly. At least not all of them. I had two muscle cars in the 60's, drove them way too hard, and easily got triple that.

But I do agree with your definition/conception of what a muscle car is. And I wish I had both of mine today--in the condition that I sold them.

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by H-Town » Mon May 14, 2018 8:02 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:44 pm
To the car buffs: does a Tesla Roadster with "Ludicrous Mode" (0-60 in 2.5 seconds) count as a "muscle car?" If not, why not? Does it have to use 1960s technology to be considered a "muscle car?"
No. It does not look like a muscle car, not drive like a muscle car, and not behave like a muscle car. It's not muscle car. Tesla Roadster is a sport car. Some might call it supercar - depends on the crazy price tag at 250k and higher.

Camaro, Challenger, and Mustang are muscle cars.

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by ClevrChico » Mon May 14, 2018 8:07 pm

A boglehead would rent their muscle car on Turo for a weekend (using tax-free dividends from VWIUX), get it out of their system, and go back to their fully depreciated, paid off daily.

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by fourwheelcycle » Mon May 14, 2018 8:12 pm

thangngo wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:40 pm
chevca wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:29 pm

And WOW, this thread is funny to read as an actual muscle car fan!! The typical Boglehead is very out of touch with what that means... and cars in general. Did I see V4 mentioned somewhere? :oops: Makes me wonder why some folks would even comment in a thread like this....
LOL. V4.
Funny for a car thread, but I used to drive a V4 - except it only had two wheels. The model name was VFR and it would do 0-60 in 3.0 seconds. I only know that number from the published test data, since I was too scared to try it.

Regarding V4 cars, I had a friend in college who actually owned a two stroke V4 Saab Sonett. When he stepped on the gas it accelerated slowly at first, but pulled like crazy as the RPMs built up. He was a real car buff; he also owned a Studebaker Avanti.

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by VGisforme » Mon May 14, 2018 8:24 pm

In 2011 I bought a lightly used 2006 Dodge Charger R/T with the R&T package (basically the Daytona without loud colors, it had the really grippy seats, larger front anti roll bar and louder free flowing exhaust and intake, different steering rack etc.). It had 22k miles on the clock and I bought it for $18k. Not cheap but the miles were low.

Now I've got 130k+ miles and over the past 7 years I've done some cheap and satisfying cosmetic mods like window tint and swapping out the grille for the black daytona style one, putting on the front chin spoiler. I've also done some dynamic mods like swapping in the springs, shocks and struts from a 2010 Challenger SRT-8 model, using a tuner and fitting a new intake. Most of the stuff I do myself like brake jobs and the 4 and counting spark plug changes (every 30k miles change 16 plugs).

The car might be worth $6k probably not even that much. But it's in great shape, just dropped the front fascia off and replaced the headlights and fog lights, makes it look brand new. I do have some rust coming in one a rear fender...

I run sticky 20 inch summer tires in warmer months and swap to 18 inch winter wheels with snow tires in cold weather.

No reason you can't buy one of the last naturally aspirated v8 family sedan/muscle cars and live a little. I'm not worried about losing a couple miles a gallon, I don't fit comfortably in an econobox and the kids don't fit in the back well either.

A pure boglehead is going to put you in a civic or corrola or versa. I'd tell you to go test drive a v8 2015+ Charger.

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by alfaspider » Mon May 14, 2018 9:04 pm

ClevrChico wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:07 pm
A boglehead would rent their muscle car on Turo for a weekend (using tax-free dividends from VWIUX), get it out of their system, and go back to their fully depreciated, paid off daily.
Why can’t a muscle car be fully depreciated and paid off? Besides, I’ve been driving quick cars (to various degrees) almost as long as I’ve been driving. Still haven’t gotten it out of my system. That would be a really expensive Turo rental!

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by ClevrChico » Mon May 14, 2018 9:05 pm

alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:04 pm
ClevrChico wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:07 pm
A boglehead would rent their muscle car on Turo for a weekend (using tax-free dividends from VWIUX), get it out of their system, and go back to their fully depreciated, paid off daily.
Why can’t a muscle car be fully depreciated and paid off? Besides, I’ve been driving quick cars (to various degrees) almost as long as I’ve been driving. Still haven’t gotten it out of my system. That would be a really expensive Turo rental!
It's a joke. :-) But I do agree. Most on here can drive whatever they want.

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by Quickfoot » Mon May 14, 2018 9:37 pm

Got a 3 year old BMW 535 for $32,000 with 15,000 miles on it. 320 ft/lb torqe at 1800 RPM and ~ 300 HP makes for a very fun to drive car with more amenities and higher reliability plus better performance than a Charger V6 (the V8 Mustang can't match it for torque until > 4000 RPM) and a lower price point. I get 20 mpg in sport+ mode, have a top speed of > 160 MPH (it's equipped to hit that speed) and for insurance purposes it's classified as a 4 door sedan. End result is a car that puts a smile on my face, will push you back in your seat, that I can put my family in and that doesn't break the bank.

Price 3 years ago was almost $67,000 so someone else paid $35,000 of depreciation for me, put in a garage and barely drove it. Only thing I'd do different would be go for the 550 for an extra 100 ft/lb torque and 100 HP :).

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by whodidntante » Mon May 14, 2018 9:46 pm

fourwheelcycle wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:12 pm


Funny for a car thread, but I used to drive a V4 - except it only had two wheels. The model name was VFR and it would do 0-60 in 3.0 seconds. I only know that number from the published test data, since I was too scared to try it.

Regarding V4 cars, I had a friend in college who actually owned a two stroke V4 Saab Sonett. When he stepped on the gas it accelerated slowly at first, but pulled like crazy as the RPMs built up. He was a real car buff; he also owned a Studebaker Avanti.
I owned an '84 Honda Magna with a rather odd looking water cooled V4. I guess they wanted something that didn't look like the old CB bikes. It was the peakiest engine in existence. The throttle didn't seem to have any effect on the power output whatsoever below 5,000 RPM.

Image

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by randomguy » Mon May 14, 2018 10:43 pm

ClevrChico wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:05 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:04 pm
ClevrChico wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:07 pm
A boglehead would rent their muscle car on Turo for a weekend (using tax-free dividends from VWIUX), get it out of their system, and go back to their fully depreciated, paid off daily.
Why can’t a muscle car be fully depreciated and paid off? Besides, I’ve been driving quick cars (to various degrees) almost as long as I’ve been driving. Still haven’t gotten it out of my system. That would be a really expensive Turo rental!
It's a joke. :-) But I do agree. Most on here can drive whatever they want.
There is no such thing as a bogleheads car. There is nothing in the bogleheads philosphy that points to buying a Civic over a Porsche.

There are however a lot of people that think frugality is a virtue on bogleheads. But you don't have to have that mindset to be a boglehead

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by ClevrChico » Mon May 14, 2018 10:49 pm

randomguy wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:43 pm
ClevrChico wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:05 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:04 pm
ClevrChico wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:07 pm
A boglehead would rent their muscle car on Turo for a weekend (using tax-free dividends from VWIUX), get it out of their system, and go back to their fully depreciated, paid off daily.
Why can’t a muscle car be fully depreciated and paid off? Besides, I’ve been driving quick cars (to various degrees) almost as long as I’ve been driving. Still haven’t gotten it out of my system. That would be a really expensive Turo rental!
It's a joke. :-) But I do agree. Most on here can drive whatever they want.
There is no such thing as a bogleheads car. There is nothing in the bogleheads philosphy that points to buying a Civic over a Porsche.

There are however a lot of people that think frugality is a virtue on bogleheads. But you don't have to have that mindset to be a boglehead
The wiki does have topics for: Auto Insurance, Probate, and Budget

There is no mention on the wiki specifically of muscle cars or different types of cars.

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by midareff » Tue May 15, 2018 7:07 am

alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:31 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:38 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:30 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:20 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:59 pm


I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. If you are retired and can write the check, and it puts a big smile on your face .. goforit, just like two room suites on a European River Cruise. There is enough other stuff on the road that I don't need to be a me too with another Mustang or MoPar product..... and no offense to those that have one. Frankly though, even looked at a Alfa Guila Quad... now your shooting craps with Cramer alfaspyder.
I love my vintage Alfa, but I would be the first to admit that buying a Giulia Quad would be a terrible financial decision :happy Plus, I submit you are straying far from the "Muscle Car" genre once you start talking about M3s and Giulias. While AMG have a reputation as being overpowered barn-burners, the M3/Giulia Quad are more in the balanced sports car tradition. That said, AMG is getting better in the handling department and the competitors are coming up on power. In any event, all of the luxury performance cars these days are a LONG way from the traditional giant engine in a family car muscle car.

Like I said in my first post, if you want a powerful car on a budget, the way to do it is to build one.
Again, I guess we will disagree. AFAIC, anything that can turn a sub 4.0 0-60 time is a bona fide muscle car, which is different than having a zillion horsepower to spin or smoke tires. Perhaps you should go test drive a new AMG.
There’s no doubt AMGs are very quick car, and I’m certainly not knocking them- only their cost and horrific depreciation.

With respect to Miriam Webster, a “Muscle Car” is indented to apply to a 4+ seat performance car with the predominant characteristic of having a lot of power, traditionally at the expense of things like braking and handling. They were the product of the horsepower wars in the 60s where even sedate family cars were offered with very powerful v8 motors (think Chevy Chevelle), but usually with the family car suspension and brakes. This is separate from the European sports car tradition that emphasized handling over power (think MGs). I would argue that the Dodge Challenger/ Chargers are really some of the only true “muscle cars” left. While they handle far better than their 60s forebearers, they still emphasize power over all other characteristics and have family car roots.
I suspect I can relate to traditional vehicles as well as you Alfa. My first car was an MG1100 Sports Sedan and I was involved in racing MG Midgets and Sprites.. "bug eye" was a favoite. Car #2 was an Austin Cooper 1275 S. Best buddy at the time had a Catalina 2+2, 421 Tri-power, as much "muscle car" as the GTO's, Plymouth 383 or Hemi Satellites and such. I spent some time in SCCA racing in the late 1960's and early 70's, and auto-crossed, and auto-crossed again in 2000-2004 with a Porsche Boxster S, which was definitely not a muscle car. I agree with you on the AMG's costs and most likely depreciation, but then again if they cost the same as a Lexus or Accord they would have to give you lots less (and forget the free track day with instructor in their AMG) and it would be just another nicer family car like the C300 is.

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by lazydavid » Tue May 15, 2018 7:17 am

randomguy wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:41 pm
Get the v4. When people give you a hard time point out it will crush all those 1960s v8s.
The only production v4 engine I'm aware of over the past 30 years is in the Honda VFR800 Interceptor. Its 104hp does a great job motivating a 520lb motorcycle. Probably wouldn't do nearly so well in a 3500+ lb car.
Last edited by lazydavid on Tue May 15, 2018 7:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is there a boglehead muscle car?

Post by chevca » Tue May 15, 2018 7:18 am

midareff wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 7:07 am
Best buddy at the time had a Catalina 2+2, 421 Tri-power, as much "muscle car"
Nice! Not many will know what that one is. Yes, I'd put that in the group. Although, they were the muscle before the well known muscle cars. The early 1960s Impalas with the 409 would be in that pre-muscle group also.

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