keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

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mouses
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keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by mouses » Mon May 14, 2018 7:01 am

I'm been dithering about buying a new car, due to the expense. My newest car is a 1992 Buick. I have rented a Ford Fusion with a keyless ignition, but this problem did not occur to me:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/13/busi ... -toll.html

The article sounds like no car company does the right thing about this. Is that correct? I can hardly imagine how the executives sleep at night knowing people are dying from this.

It makes me glad my garage is not attached to my house.

rhornback
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by rhornback » Mon May 14, 2018 7:06 am

I have had this happen where my wife 'accidentally' turned on the remote starter while the vehicle was in the garage.

Luckily I heard it. I turned it off and opened the garage door.

My neighbor leaves the garage door windows (I realize not every garage has a window) cracked because of this possibility.

Interestingly the remote starter has turned out to be a white elephant and my wife has not really used it. I do not think I would buy it again because of this concern.

Jack FFR1846
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Mon May 14, 2018 7:19 am

They are easy to disable. I did so on the used outback we bought
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The Wizard
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by The Wizard » Mon May 14, 2018 7:20 am

rhornback wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:06 am
I have had this happen where my wife 'accidentally' turned on the remote starter while the vehicle was in the garage...
It's not just remote start, it's the keyless fob along with push button start/stop.

My previous pickup had aftermarket remote start activated by a single button press. I would accidentally start the vehicle sometimes when working with logs, cutting firewood, and pressing the wrong spot on my pocket.

My newish F-150 require three button presses in sequence to remote start, so accidental starts don't happen.
But it also has push button start/stop which works if the fob is somewhere in the cab. I like that feature...
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The Wizard
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by The Wizard » Mon May 14, 2018 7:23 am

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:19 am
They are easy to disable. I did so on the used outback we bought
If I somehow disabled my push button start/stop, my truck would just be a lawn ornament henceforth. There's no other way to start the vehicle, without some custom aftermarket work.

Edit: that article says my 2016 F-150 should shut off automatically after 30 minutes if I walk away with the fob and leave it running.
I've not verified this; perhaps I should...
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JamesSFO
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by JamesSFO » Mon May 14, 2018 7:36 am

The Wizard wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:23 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:19 am
They are easy to disable. I did so on the used outback we bought
If I somehow disabled my push button start/stop, my truck would just be a lawn ornament henceforth. There's no other way to start the vehicle, without some custom aftermarket work.
I believe you are misparsing, not disable push start/stop, but disable use of the remote to REMOTELY start the car.

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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by onourway » Mon May 14, 2018 7:47 am

My wife did this more than once with our Prius which would be for all intents and purposes 'off' once you stopped and put it in park. Fortunately we did not have it parked in a garage and the only cost was the fuel it burned on and off over night.

Very easy to do in modern cars, especially hybrids.

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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by tev9876 » Mon May 14, 2018 7:52 am

Conspicuously absent from the article are the number of incidents of traditional ignition deaths/injuries when left running. I noticed the Equinox rental I had last week had a warning chime when turning off the ignition (keyless) to check the back seat. If a young parent can forget a child in the back, a memory challenged elderly adult could also forget to shut off a traditional ignition.

I don't see car manufactures any more liable than furnace and water heater manufacturers. A $20 carbon monoxide detector would take care of all of these situations. It has only been code since 2008 for houses with attached garages or gas fired appliances, but it is a simple retrofit that saves lives.

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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by jebmke » Mon May 14, 2018 7:55 am

I have carbon monoxide alarms in the sections of the house immediately adjacent to the garage. This is the only area where CO is an issue because we have electric heat (heat pump).

Portable generators can be a risk as well because they are often mistakenly placed near a structure to feed the electricity in.
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by The Wizard » Mon May 14, 2018 7:57 am

JamesSFO wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:36 am
The Wizard wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:23 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:19 am
They are easy to disable. I did so on the used outback we bought
If I somehow disabled my push button start/stop, my truck would just be a lawn ornament henceforth. There's no other way to start the vehicle, without some custom aftermarket work.
I believe you are misparsing, not disable push start/stop, but disable use of the remote to REMOTELY start the car.
Well, ok, but that's not the main point of the NYT story, though the fatal result can be the same...
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Teague
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by Teague » Mon May 14, 2018 8:08 am

The article mentions "over two dozen" people being killed in this fashion since 2006. While tragic in each and every case, this number over this amount of time is hardly indicative of a public health emergency.

The original version of the article also claimed that CO built up in a garage not only killed a person, but caused several of their soda cans to explode as well, complete with a photo of exploded soda cans! Apparently someone informed the editors that this was preposterous and the soda claim and photo were removed. Things simply don't work that way and the cans probably exploded from being overheated at some point, unrelated to CO at all.

I have great respect for the NYT, but I found this article a disappointing bit of breathless overreaction.
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munemaker
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by munemaker » Mon May 14, 2018 8:14 am

rhornback wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:06 am
I have had this happen where my wife 'accidentally' turned on the remote starter while the vehicle was in the garage.

Luckily I heard it. I turned it off and opened the garage door.

My neighbor leaves the garage door windows (I realize not every garage has a window) cracked because of this possibility.

Interestingly the remote starter has turned out to be a white elephant and my wife has not really used it. I do not think I would buy it again because of this concern.
My wife has remote start on her car, and it would be unusual that you would start it accidentally. Two keys have to be pressed sequentially, and the timing has to be right with those two presses. I think people are not pushing the button to turn off the keyless ignition, not accidentally triggering the remote start. Our remote start seems safe. In 10 years, it has never been accidentally triggered.

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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by aristotelian » Mon May 14, 2018 8:21 am

Teague wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:08 am
The article mentions "over two dozen" people being killed in this fashion since 2006. While tragic in each and every case, this number over this amount of time is hardly indicative of a public health emergency.

The original version of the article also claimed that CO built up in a garage not only killed a person, but caused several of their soda cans to explode as well, complete with a photo of exploded soda cans! Apparently someone informed the editors that this was preposterous and the soda claim and photo were removed. Things simply don't work that way and the cans probably exploded from being overheated at some point, unrelated to CO at all.

I have great respect for the NYT, but I found this article a disappointing bit of breathless overreaction.
A 5 minute cutoff would be a simple fix. A single person dying is too many when the problem is easily preventable.

mouses
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by mouses » Mon May 14, 2018 8:25 am

aristotelian wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:21 am

A 5 minute cutoff would be a simple fix. A single person dying is too many when the problem is easily preventable.
^^^^^^^
I was reading an article yesterday about a woman in need of a liver transplant and her problems getting her insurance company to approve it despite a queue of her doctors saying it was required and likely to work. Just as a kind of side comment in the article, it noted something else which was not approved because it only saved lives 18% of the time. What the heck.

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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by The Wizard » Mon May 14, 2018 8:33 am

munemaker wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:14 am

My wife has remote start on her car, and it would be unusual that you would start it accidentally. Two keys have to be pressed sequentially, and the timing has to be right with those two presses. I think people are not pushing the button to turn off the keyless ignition, not accidentally triggering the remote start. Our remote start seems safe. In 10 years, it has never been accidentally triggered.
Right. As mentioned above, my F-150 has a similar sequence required that's hard to imagine happening by accident.
Plus, the engine turns off 15 or 20 minutes after the last remote start activation if you haven't entered the nicely heated/cooled vehicle by then.
So I suspect that cheap aftermarket remote starters are more likely to be a problem...
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rhornback
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by rhornback » Mon May 14, 2018 9:36 am

munemaker wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:14 am
rhornback wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:06 am
I have had this happen where my wife 'accidentally' turned on the remote starter while the vehicle was in the garage.

Luckily I heard it. I turned it off and opened the garage door.

My neighbor leaves the garage door windows (I realize not every garage has a window) cracked because of this possibility.

Interestingly the remote starter has turned out to be a white elephant and my wife has not really used it. I do not think I would buy it again because of this concern.
My wife has remote start on her car, and it would be unusual that you would start it accidentally. Two keys have to be pressed sequentially, and the timing has to be right with those two presses. I think people are not pushing the button to turn off the keyless ignition, not accidentally triggering the remote start. Our remote start seems safe. In 10 years, it has never been accidentally triggered.
This is a superior design. My wife's car (an aftermarket remote start, though a nicer one) has only one button. But thank you for food for though. I will consider this next car purchase.

TBillT
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by TBillT » Mon May 14, 2018 9:51 am

Sounds like some valid issue, but limited per below. Perhaps car-on alarm or something could help (and CO alarm of course).
My Toyota Prius carbon monoxide is almost zero due to the cat converter. (Prius are all California pollution control design).
I am having to wonder how it is even possible for a RAV4 to make enough CO?
I guess maybe if you have an extremely air-tight garage, all the the oxygen could get used up as the first step? Then CO could be made.
Maybe you could have an older RAV4 with a leaky exhaust, or oil leak has poisoned the cat converter over time?
Just so much harder to happen these days.

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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Mon May 14, 2018 10:25 am

It sounds like there are many different systems with different activations. In our 04 outback, one would press a button on the fob twice. Within a week of buying the car, my son, my wife and I all managed to start the car while walking from the car to the house. The fix was easy. I removed the plug going to the under-hood switch (prevents remote start when the hood is open) and bolted it to a ground point. No more problems.
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by Texanbybirth » Mon May 14, 2018 10:32 am

rhornback wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:06 am
My neighbor leaves the garage door windows (I realize not every garage has a window) cracked because of this possibility.
That's a great idea, thanks for posting.

delamer
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by delamer » Mon May 14, 2018 10:34 am

Both of our cars have keyless start, as in you don’t need to put a key in the ignition. As long as the fob is in the car, you just press a button to start — and stop — the vehicle.

My car lets the driver get out of the car, with or without the key fob, without turning it off and without giving any warning. In my husband’s car, if the driver gets out with the key fob and with the car still running, then it beeps several times. Not sure what happens with his if the driver gets out but the key fob stays.

I don’t know if either vehicle turns off after a set amount of time with no driver in place, which seems like the obvious solution.

In our state, it is illegal to leave an unoccupied vehicle running (exception for a few minutes on private property if vehicle is locked).

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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by Ruger » Mon May 14, 2018 10:39 am

I have the keyless start on my car, and I love it. I don't understand how people can walk away with their car running. Pushing the button is just as easy to remember as turning the key and removing it before leaving the vehicle.

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munemaker
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by munemaker » Mon May 14, 2018 10:58 am

delamer wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:34 am

In our state, it is illegal to leave an unoccupied vehicle running (exception for a few minutes on private property if vehicle is locked).
It is in our state as well, but it is not enforced. I would say the majority of people leave their car running when going into a convenience store when it is really cold outside. They probably only enforce this law if there is a problem...like some kid steals your car, then they blame/fine you for leaving it running.

What is really interesting is the cops all leave their cars running too, winter and summer. They aren't paying for the gas, so why not? And if there is an emergency, they don't have to take the extra time to start the engine. I never had the guts to try the door to see if they actually lock the car when they leave it running. Probably they do. Would be pretty embarrassing for them if someone stole a police car that was left running, so probably they lock up.

edit: Thinking about this, I don't know if our state (PA) has an exception for private property. I seem to remember reading about someone getting a ticket for having their car running in their driveway...but i am not 100% sure this was in PA.
Last edited by munemaker on Mon May 14, 2018 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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munemaker
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by munemaker » Mon May 14, 2018 11:00 am

Ruger wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:39 am
I have the keyless start on my car, and I love it. I don't understand how people can walk away with their car running. Pushing the button is just as easy to remember as turning the key and removing it before leaving the vehicle.
+1

I wonder if anyone keeps stats on carbon monoxide deaths from people leaving the engine running with the key in the ignition.

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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by Rupert » Mon May 14, 2018 11:12 am

munemaker wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:00 am
Ruger wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:39 am
I have the keyless start on my car, and I love it. I don't understand how people can walk away with their car running. Pushing the button is just as easy to remember as turning the key and removing it before leaving the vehicle.
+1

I wonder if anyone keeps stats on carbon monoxide deaths from people leaving the engine running with the key in the ignition.
Don't know if such stats exist, but my guess is the number of deaths is lower or nonexistent because most people keep their house key and car key on the same keyring.

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munemaker
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by munemaker » Mon May 14, 2018 11:14 am

Rupert wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:12 am
munemaker wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:00 am
Ruger wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:39 am
I have the keyless start on my car, and I love it. I don't understand how people can walk away with their car running. Pushing the button is just as easy to remember as turning the key and removing it before leaving the vehicle.
+1

I wonder if anyone keeps stats on carbon monoxide deaths from people leaving the engine running with the key in the ignition.
Don't know if such stats exist, but my guess is the number of deaths is lower or nonexistent because most people keep their house key and car key on the same keyring.
You are probably right. In our case, we leave the keys in the cars when in the (locked garage), and always keep the door between the (locked) garage and the house unlocked. But yes, we may be in the minority on that.

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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by delamer » Mon May 14, 2018 11:17 am

Rupert wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:12 am
munemaker wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:00 am
Ruger wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:39 am
I have the keyless start on my car, and I love it. I don't understand how people can walk away with their car running. Pushing the button is just as easy to remember as turning the key and removing it before leaving the vehicle.
+1

I wonder if anyone keeps stats on carbon monoxide deaths from people leaving the engine running with the key in the ignition.
Don't know if such stats exist, but my guess is the number of deaths is lower or nonexistent because most people keep their house key and car key on the same keyring.
I don’t know — this is an issue with attached garages. Do people commonly keep the door between the attached garage and the house locked? We never have, except overnight when everyone is home for the duration.

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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by greg24 » Mon May 14, 2018 11:18 am

Roughly two people die per year from this issue.

In 2016, there were 37,461 motor vehicle deaths in the United States.

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jharkin
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by jharkin » Mon May 14, 2018 11:23 am

Interesting.

We have keyless + remote start on our latest new Honda. I think it would be hard to make this mistake on ours for a few reasons:

#1 - if you open the driver door wit the engine running it makes a quite a racket of alarm dings (same as the old key system did). If you then walk away - say at a quick roadside stop leaving passengers in the car - the dash flashes a "no key" light and continues to alarm.

#2 The remote start is on a timer. Once started it will auto shutoff in 10 minutes unless you pres it again.

#3 Further, the remote start requires a procedure to active. You have to hit the lock button on the fob first, and then hold down the remote start button for at least 10 seconds. Only then will it start, and that is accompanied by the hazard lights blinking and a horn beep.


Maybe Honda is ahead of the curve with safeguards?

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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by mmmodem » Mon May 14, 2018 12:48 pm

Can't believe I'm saying this but I'm with the auto manufacturers on this. The root cause is not keyless ignition systems. The root cause of death is CO poisoning. Installing a shut off device on all new cars does not solve the issue. There may be other sources of CO pollution in the home

The fix is a CO alarm in your home. They cost $10 and will work with all cars, not just ones with keyless ignition systems.

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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by cherijoh » Mon May 14, 2018 1:07 pm

JamesSFO wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:36 am
The Wizard wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:23 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:19 am
They are easy to disable. I did so on the used outback we bought
If I somehow disabled my push button start/stop, my truck would just be a lawn ornament henceforth. There's no other way to start the vehicle, without some custom aftermarket work.
I believe you are misparsing, not disable push start/stop, but disable use of the remote to REMOTELY start the car.
But the linked article isn't about remote start feature. It is about people who forget to turn off their cars after driving them into their garages.

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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by lthenderson » Mon May 14, 2018 1:19 pm

My newer toyota will electronically beep at you three times if you exit the vehicle with your key fob in possession so it does warn you but will keep the car running. My brother drives an older toyota that will kill the car within 30 seconds if he leaves the vehicle with the key fob. I'm not sure why the change but I like it the way it is currently.

Examples:

1. We often as a family will stop at some store on the way home for a couple of items and I the driver will hop out leaving my wife and kids in the car running to keep the temperature conditioned in the winter and summer months while I'm in the store.

2. Growing up on the farm, we often use our vehicles as tools which can mean driving a few feet, stopping and exiting the vehicle to grab a bale of hay, fence post, large rock in the field, etc. before returning to our vehicle and continuing on another dozen feet to the next obstacle. Back before quick hitches, I often times would have to exit the vehicle several times before getting exactly lined up with the hitch. Having to restart your engine every single time would really put a lot of wear on the starter.

3. Just a couple months ago, my car battery expired after eight years so I knew it was time for a new one. I jump started it and drove it to the store via a couple quick stops to do other errands on the way. Had I not been able to leave my car running, I would have had to travel pass all my other stops first just so the engine didn't stop when I got out.

All these could be circumvented by just leaving the key fob in the car but A) that goes against the convenience of having a keyless entry fob you don't have to find in your pockets all the time and B) would still probably cause people to die who leave the key fob in the car and car running when they go inside the house. As someone who spent a career designing things so people couldn't injure themselves, people were awfully darn good at finding ways around my thinking.

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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by The Wizard » Mon May 14, 2018 1:23 pm

cherijoh wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:07 pm
JamesSFO wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:36 am
The Wizard wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:23 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:19 am
They are easy to disable. I did so on the used outback we bought
If I somehow disabled my push button start/stop, my truck would just be a lawn ornament henceforth. There's no other way to start the vehicle, without some custom aftermarket work.
I believe you are misparsing, not disable push start/stop, but disable use of the remote to REMOTELY start the car.
But the linked article isn't about remote start feature. It is about people who forget to turn off their cars after driving them into their garages.
Right.
And I'm pretty sure some of these fatalities have happened with standard metal keys back in the old days, when driven by people who are forgetful, whether older or not.
But the thesis of that NYT article is that keyless ignition is worsening the problem.

Note: with my F-150, when I remote start it to warm it up in winter, the engine shuts off when I open the driver's door and get in, so I need to push the button to restart it.

Note2: anyone who purposefully remote starts a vehicle while it's in a closed garage is seriously asking for trouble.

So anyhow, is the absence of a metal key in the ignition making it more likely that certain people will forget to turn the quietly idling vehicle off after parking it?
I'm not sure, but the NYT thinks it is...
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by H-Town » Mon May 14, 2018 1:25 pm

mouses wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:01 am
I'm been dithering about buying a new car, due to the expense. My newest car is a 1992 Buick. I have rented a Ford Fusion with a keyless ignition, but this problem did not occur to me:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/13/busi ... -toll.html

The article sounds like no car company does the right thing about this. Is that correct? I can hardly imagine how the executives sleep at night knowing people are dying from this.

It makes me glad my garage is not attached to my house.
Sounds like user error and/or suicidal intention.

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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by KT785 » Mon May 14, 2018 1:26 pm

My understanding (when this issue surfaced a couple years ago) was that this was more of an issue specifically with hybrid vehicles, wherein the car is still running but there's no audible indication until the battery runs down and the ICE takes over . . . .

We have push-button start on both our Outback and Rogue and love the feature; I can't fathom an instance where I'd not notice either car still running upon egress--neither are notoriously quiet vehicles, especially in the confines of a garage.

With respect to remote start though, neither of our current cars has it, but my Buick Verano (replaced by the Outback) had it both on the remote and through OnStar. The remote required a certain sequence and hold pattern and I never had any inadvertent starts from it BUT I had a few instances of errors through OnStar. In those instances, the "start" signal didn't go through to the vehicle when I'd requested it but instead started the car some time later after I'd gotten home and put the car in the garage with the garage door shut . . . my home office is close to the garage so I noticed the sound/vibration but can imagine a situation where we'd not hear it.

That said, I think the Buick would shut off after 10 minutes if remotely started regardless of method.

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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by The Wizard » Mon May 14, 2018 1:35 pm

lthenderson wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:19 pm

...All these could be circumvented by just leaving the key fob in the car but A) that goes against the convenience of having a keyless entry fob you don't have to find in your pockets all the time and B) would still probably cause people to die who leave the key fob in the car and car running when they go inside the house. As someone who spent a career designing things so people couldn't injure themselves, people were awfully darn good at finding ways around my thinking.
I leave my key fob in my F-150 when I'm doing certain off road things that you mention, usually involving logging for firewood. Two reasons for this:
1) I often leave the engine running when hopping out to put a rope on the trailer hitch to haul a downed tree out of the woods. If I keep the fob in my pocket, the truck will honk the horn twice at me when I hop out, which is annoying.
2) with the engine off and I'm doing physical work nearby, I've been known to hit the freaking PANIC BUTTON on the stupid fob in my pocket, causing the horn to honk incessantly. Talk about stupid useless features...
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by likegarden » Mon May 14, 2018 1:39 pm

My 2017 Chevy Malibu honks when I leave the car with the fob on my body and the engine running. So no problem here. It honks not only in the garage but also in parking lots of stores, is a pain being honked at.

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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by cherijoh » Mon May 14, 2018 1:46 pm

KT785 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:26 pm
My understanding (when this issue surfaced a couple years ago) was that this was more of an issue specifically with hybrid vehicles, wherein the car is still running but there's no audible indication until the battery runs down and the ICE takes over . . . .

We have push-button start on both our Outback and Rogue and love the feature; I can't fathom an instance where I'd not notice either car still running upon egress--neither are notoriously quiet vehicles, especially in the confines of a garage.
I have a hybrid vehicle and it is really quiet when idling. (Mine is a 2010 so it still has a key). But sometimes I'll sit in my car in a parking lot to hear the end of a story on NPR. (The radio stays on when the ignition is off until you open the car door). And honestly if the radio is on, it is hard to tell if the car is shut off or not based on engine noise. I'm good about taking my keys with me, but I sometimes have to double check if I locked the car doors. So I would definitely have to worry with keyless entry if I turned the car off or not.

ResearchMed
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by ResearchMed » Mon May 14, 2018 2:03 pm

delamer wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:34 am
Both of our cars have keyless start, as in you don’t need to put a key in the ignition. As long as the fob is in the car, you just press a button to start — and stop — the vehicle.

My car lets the driver get out of the car, with or without the key fob, without turning it off and without giving any warning. In my husband’s car, if the driver gets out with the key fob and with the car still running, then it beeps several times. Not sure what happens with his if the driver gets out but the key fob stays.

I don’t know if either vehicle turns off after a set amount of time with no driver in place, which seems like the obvious solution.

In our state, it is illegal to leave an unoccupied vehicle running (exception for a few minutes on private property if vehicle is locked).
Our car, Volvo XC60, has the remote start, but there is a sequence on the fob buttons that is unlikely to be triggered by accident.
And the remote start will turn itself off in something like 15 minutes. One would either need to physically "do it again", or if getting in the car, then start the car as usual.

On the other hand, re: just leaving the car running, the driver can keep the fob in a pocket, and (IF it is set up for this), as one approaches the car, it will unlock, and the starter can then be pressed, all without removing the fob from a pocket.

Problem is, the driver *can* just walk away without turning the car "off".

Indeed, a parking garage valet can then drive the car away, and park it in the garage somewhere.
Then, when the driver returns and gives the ticket at the valet desk... the unfortunate attendant goes to get the car, and... returns asking for the fob...
We have noticed that valets have become *very* proactive about asking, "Is the key [their term invariably] in the car?"

But it never really occurred to us about the danger of possibly leaving it running in a garage.
Our garage is "attached" but there is no direct entry. However, there IS a common wall, and the CO detector is on the other side of the house, near the furnaces and hot water heater...
Time for another detector...

BTW, *I* do NOT have my fob set up to unlock the car as I approach.
I want to see what/who is "around", and then, when I do click the fob, only the driver's door unlocks, NOT any of the other doors, unless I click a second time, which I only do if I have a passenger.
The car salesman seemed genuinely startled that someone (me, a female) might not want the other doors, especially on the other side of the car, to unlock automatically... including in remote or dark areas...

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

KT785
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by KT785 » Mon May 14, 2018 2:07 pm

cherijoh wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:46 pm
. . . sometimes I'll sit in my car in a parking lot to hear the end of a story on NPR.
I'm similarly guilty of many NPR "driveway moments" :D

Slacker
Posts: 631
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by Slacker » Mon May 14, 2018 2:11 pm

If we leave our Prius "ON" when we get out, it beeps at us (detects that the key is not present in the cabin).

If I remotely start our Prius, it would take a long, long time to deplete the battery (Prius Prime) and we almost always plug it in when we get home. The remotes don't have remote start - I have to do it from an app and I think it is mainly just for climate control

MathWizard
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by MathWizard » Mon May 14, 2018 3:35 pm

Ruger wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:39 am
I have the keyless start on my car, and I love it. I don't understand how people can walk away with their car running. Pushing the button is just as easy to remember as turning the key and removing it before leaving the vehicle.
I did just that this weekend driving my wife's car.
I'm not used to the keyless ignition, as my car does not have it. This is
our first keyless ignition, and we've had it a short time, and I've only driven her car a few times.
The car is also much quieter at idle than my car.

Luckily my wife noticed, and went back to turn it off.

delamer
Posts: 6386
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:13 pm

Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by delamer » Mon May 14, 2018 3:40 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 2:03 pm
delamer wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:34 am
Both of our cars have keyless start, as in you don’t need to put a key in the ignition. As long as the fob is in the car, you just press a button to start — and stop — the vehicle.

My car lets the driver get out of the car, with or without the key fob, without turning it off and without giving any warning. In my husband’s car, if the driver gets out with the key fob and with the car still running, then it beeps several times. Not sure what happens with his if the driver gets out but the key fob stays.

I don’t know if either vehicle turns off after a set amount of time with no driver in place, which seems like the obvious solution.

In our state, it is illegal to leave an unoccupied vehicle running (exception for a few minutes on private property if vehicle is locked).
Our car, Volvo XC60, has the remote start, but there is a sequence on the fob buttons that is unlikely to be triggered by accident.
And the remote start will turn itself off in something like 15 minutes. One would either need to physically "do it again", or if getting in the car, then start the car as usual.

On the other hand, re: just leaving the car running, the driver can keep the fob in a pocket, and (IF it is set up for this), as one approaches the car, it will unlock, and the starter can then be pressed, all without removing the fob from a pocket.

Problem is, the driver *can* just walk away without turning the car "off".

Indeed, a parking garage valet can then drive the car away, and park it in the garage somewhere.
Then, when the driver returns and gives the ticket at the valet desk... the unfortunate attendant goes to get the car, and... returns asking for the fob...
We have noticed that valets have become *very* proactive about asking, "Is the key [their term invariably] in the car?"

But it never really occurred to us about the danger of possibly leaving it running in a garage.
Our garage is "attached" but there is no direct entry. However, there IS a common wall, and the CO detector is on the other side of the house, near the furnaces and hot water heater...
Time for another detector...

BTW, *I* do NOT have my fob set up to unlock the car as I approach.
I want to see what/who is "around", and then, when I do click the fob, only the driver's door unlocks, NOT any of the other doors, unless I click a second time, which I only do if I have a passenger.
The car salesman seemed genuinely startled that someone (me, a female) might not want the other doors, especially on the other side of the car, to unlock automatically... including in remote or dark areas...

RM
I had not considered the attached garage without a direct entry into the house, even though the house I grew up in had that setup.

It did have a common wall too, of course.

I wonder if that is just a slower threat relative to a garage with a direct entry?

cusetownusa
Posts: 323
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by cusetownusa » Mon May 14, 2018 4:04 pm

rhornback wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:06 am
I have had this happen where my wife 'accidentally' turned on the remote starter while the vehicle was in the garage.

Luckily I heard it. I turned it off and opened the garage door.

My neighbor leaves the garage door windows (I realize not every garage has a window) cracked because of this possibility.

Interestingly the remote starter has turned out to be a white elephant and my wife has not really used it. I do not think I would buy it again because of this concern.
If I start my car with the remote starter it will turn off after 15 minutes. I thought all cars with remote starters worked this way.

cusetownusa
Posts: 323
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:54 am

Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by cusetownusa » Mon May 14, 2018 4:08 pm

Rupert wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:12 am
munemaker wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:00 am
Ruger wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:39 am
I have the keyless start on my car, and I love it. I don't understand how people can walk away with their car running. Pushing the button is just as easy to remember as turning the key and removing it before leaving the vehicle.
+1

I wonder if anyone keeps stats on carbon monoxide deaths from people leaving the engine running with the key in the ignition.
Don't know if such stats exist, but my guess is the number of deaths is lower or nonexistent because most people keep their house key and car key on the same keyring.
Wouldn't most people keep their key fob on the same key ring as well?

Rupert
Posts: 3788
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:01 pm

Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by Rupert » Mon May 14, 2018 4:18 pm

cusetownusa wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:08 pm
Rupert wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:12 am
munemaker wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:00 am
Ruger wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:39 am
I have the keyless start on my car, and I love it. I don't understand how people can walk away with their car running. Pushing the button is just as easy to remember as turning the key and removing it before leaving the vehicle.
+1

I wonder if anyone keeps stats on carbon monoxide deaths from people leaving the engine running with the key in the ignition.
Don't know if such stats exist, but my guess is the number of deaths is lower or nonexistent because most people keep their house key and car key on the same keyring.
Wouldn't most people keep their key fob on the same key ring as well?
Why would that make any difference when you can remove the keyless fob from the car without turning the car off? (In contrast, if you keep your traditional car key and house key on the same ring, you must remove the car key from the ignition before using your house key).
Last edited by Rupert on Mon May 14, 2018 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TravelGeek
Posts: 2451
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:23 pm

Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by TravelGeek » Mon May 14, 2018 4:28 pm

KT785 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:26 pm
My understanding (when this issue surfaced a couple years ago) was that this was more of an issue specifically with hybrid vehicles, wherein the car is still running but there's no audible indication until the battery runs down and the ICE takes over . . . .
Right, but there are other non-hybrid vehicles now that stop the (gasoline) engine when you come to a stop (eg red light) and automatically restart it when you push the gas pedal. Pretty much every rental car in Europe seems to have it. Not sure if I have come across it in the US other than with hybrid vehicles (the US rentals I get tend to be more barebones).

http://autoweek.com/article/technology/ ... k-explains

So it could be that people drive one of those vehicles into the garage, put it park, and the engine stops but is in the auto-stop mode and not really permanently turned off. And could turn back on for climate control reasons.

I have had keyless ignition vehicles for 15 years now. Don’t think I would ever go back to the old system. But I do admit that there have been two or three cases when for whatever reasons I didn’t turn off the vehicle before I got out. The vehicle then beeps at me and also won’t let me lock it. I never ignore that warning.

Regarding remote start, never had a vehicle with that feature. Now I have an EV that lets me start the heater/AC remotely.

The Wizard
Posts: 12433
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:45 pm
Location: Reading, MA

Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by The Wizard » Mon May 14, 2018 4:54 pm

cusetownusa wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:08 pm

Wouldn't most people keep their key fob on the same key ring as well?
No, we wouldn't.
The fobs are too clunky and I have two of them.
So I keep my two car key fobs separate from all my other keys...
Attempted new signature...

GCD
Posts: 574
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:11 pm

Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by GCD » Mon May 14, 2018 5:02 pm

The Wizard wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:54 pm
cusetownusa wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:08 pm

Wouldn't most people keep their key fob on the same key ring as well?
No, we wouldn't.
The fobs are too clunky and I have two of them.
So I keep my two car key fobs separate from all my other keys...
PITA to me. Now I have 2 chunky things to manage. I've had keyless ignitions on rentals and hated them. YMMV, but I think they are a useless invention. They just made the "key" bigger and more cumbersome.

I might get excited about a biometric lock and ignition though.

H-Town
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Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by H-Town » Mon May 14, 2018 5:33 pm

GCD wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:02 pm
The Wizard wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:54 pm
cusetownusa wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:08 pm

Wouldn't most people keep their key fob on the same key ring as well?
No, we wouldn't.
The fobs are too clunky and I have two of them.
So I keep my two car key fobs separate from all my other keys...
PITA to me. Now I have 2 chunky things to manage. I've had keyless ignitions on rentals and hated them. YMMV, but I think they are a useless invention. They just made the "key" bigger and more cumbersome.

I might get excited about a biometric lock and ignition though.
Yeah, I'm with you. There's nothing better than turning the key to hear the roar of the engine coming to life. My key fob also allows me to remote start the car so it helps during summer and winter.

GCD
Posts: 574
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:11 pm

Re: keyless ignitions and carbon monoxide

Post by GCD » Mon May 14, 2018 5:39 pm

thangngo wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:33 pm
GCD wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:02 pm
The Wizard wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:54 pm
cusetownusa wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:08 pm

Wouldn't most people keep their key fob on the same key ring as well?
No, we wouldn't.
The fobs are too clunky and I have two of them.
So I keep my two car key fobs separate from all my other keys...
PITA to me. Now I have 2 chunky things to manage. I've had keyless ignitions on rentals and hated them. YMMV, but I think they are a useless invention. They just made the "key" bigger and more cumbersome.

I might get excited about a biometric lock and ignition though.
Yeah, I'm with you. There's nothing better than turning the key to hear the roar of the engine coming to life. My key fob also allows me to remote start the car so it helps during summer and winter.
Not to mention it is impossible to carry a spare key fob in your wallet in case you lock yourself out. But then I guess OnStar unlocks your car for you these days so maybe I am just an old grumpy guy who can't handle change.

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