To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

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just frank
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by just frank » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:54 am

TravelGeek wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:21 pm
just frank wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:55 pm
So when do we get these better chargers? The VW diesel-gate penalty is being used to build out a Tesla-worthy DCFC network on interstates and major cities across the US, that will start with 150 kW (!) SAE/CCS chargers. something like several hundred of them in 2019. My guess is that the 2019 and later Bolts (with 80 kWh batteries) will fast charge at >120 kW, or 200 miles in 30 minutes.
Hope their completion time estimate isn't using Musk Time - 2027 is already a pretty long timeline for today's EV buyers.

https://www.electrifyamerica.com/our-plan

Nice to see that they will support not only SAE/CCS, but also CHAdeMO.
Looks like a large number of high power chargers are still planned to be online by June 2019, the 2027 figure if for full buildout of $2B worth of gear (at a WAG $200k/unit, that would be ~10,000 units).

And yes...teslas will be able to use these with an adapter.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by madbrain » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:09 am

just frank wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:32 am
OK, I have been driving my Bolt on highway roadtrips, in temps around freezing, with snow tires on, and getting >3 miles/kWh if the speed is under ~70 mph. 2mile/kWh is just nuts. IOW, I am getting 180 miles on a full charge worst case, more like 200 typical in winter conditions at HW speeds.
We have been getting 180 miles worst case on the Bolt as well, but different conditions. Winter time, mostly city driving, heater around 75F whenever it is under about 60 outside (meaning for all night time driving, some day driving). There is no snow around here, and the lowest it has ever gotten is probably 28F outside and that's only maybe 4 nights a year worst case.
Even though my husband drives slower than me, he does turn on the heat as much as I do, or higher. We are Californians. He grew up in south Vietnam in a much hotter climate. I have seen him turn it as high as 77. It takes time for the heater to work and I end up having to dial it back down if I'm in the car. Never below 72 in the car, though. At home we heat to 70.

I think the difference is likely just the hills. Any trip back home involves a huge penalty on the last half mile up. If I take that 0.6 mile hill at 15mph, that distance will consume 0.5 - 0.6 kWh in either the Volt or Bolt. If I take it at 25mph, it will be closer to 0.8 - 0.9 kWh. It may not sound like it, but if every other trip you make is a relatively short (5-15 miles) trip that includes this section, it will end up bringing down average miles/kWh enormously. In fact, I mostly have much more respectable miles/kWh average for the day before I take that hill.
Sometimes we get as much as 0.3 kWh of regen on the downhill for that short distance, if the car is not fully charged starting from the top.
In my Volt, it has happened countless times that I saw 1-4 miles on the GOM on a return trip home, and then while driving that last half mile, the car has to switch to gas, sometimes really really close, just before I turn into the driveway (even that is uphill).
It's very possible that hills kill mileage more than the low temps . I can see how that would be the case if you are not turning on the heater, or turning it to a low setting.

But others have experienced less than 180 miles of range worst case. For example, in this trip report :
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... ges-remain
With my little lead foot taking us down the freeway at an average of 80 mph, we got nowhere near the 238-mile rated range. After 103 miles, we showed only 70 miles of remaining range.
That would be 173 miles at 80 mph which would still be quite respectable, but less than your worst case. Speed really kills range in EVs.
Wanna go ~400 miles one way? now you are doing 3 30-40 minute stops each way, and adding at least an hour to your 6-7 hour drive assuming you would've stopped for food/restroom anyway. Hardly a hardship if you have the DCFC available.
Yes, and the problem is that unbelievably , we still don't have any CCS or ChaDeMO between SF and LA on the shortest route, which is I-5, or the scenic route, which is highway 1. Using any EV other than Tesla, one would have to use a longer route through 101 in order to be able to make the trip without stopping overnight for L2 charging. This route also adds about 40 miles of driving. You could make the drive with a single charging stop in the Bolt if speed is not too high (70mph or less average).
Why are we talking about cars with 300 kWh batteries again?
This was in the context of driving at the highest speed allowed by traffic conditions (not maximum legal), for the maximum amount of time that one would tolerate driving in a day. These trips are generally best done in an ICE.

For myself, I would consider 10 hour driving to be the max per day. I think I did that only once, and that was involuntary : a one-way drive from SJ to LA the day before Thanksgiving, in the daytime. That's a 360 miles drive. High rate of speed certainly wasn't a concern. But I will never take a long drive on that day of the year again. I really felt like a hostage as I expected the drive to take no more than 6 - 6.5 hours, having my best-ever time for at 4.5 hours during night-time on a normal day of the year. The longest planned drive that I made was San Diego to San Jose in 7 hours on a sunday afternoon/evening, and I thought it would take at least an hour more, but we beat that time.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by LadyGeek » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:19 pm

This thread has run its course and is locked (topic exhausted, derailed, getting contentious). See: Personal Consumer Issues
Note that this subforum has a much lower threshold for locking or removing posts than the financial and investing subforums. In general, controversial, offensive, pointless, divisive or mean-spirited posts or topics may be locked, edited or deleted (with or without notice) at the discretion of the moderating staff even if they do not otherwise violate forum policies.
Update: See below.
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by LadyGeek » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:20 am

Via PM, a member requested this thread be unlocked to ask additional questions. I have removed the last several posts which derailed the thread.

This thread is now unlocked to continue the discussion. Please stay on-topic and state your concerns in a civil, factual manner.
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by wrongfunds » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:26 am

Yesterday I visited Tesla delivery center. The only M3 that I could see (that too from the outside only) was a silver which was not yet started for the delivery readiness and a red one which belonged to one of the employee. But those two specimens were not allowed to be touched.

We sit down inside a red model S100D in the showroom. It looks like we are inching towards the red color assuming current red is same for both MS and M3

I was asked if I would like to test drive one of the S from their demo. It was very very short drive. But suffices to say that do see myself as a future Tesla owner. I had my son and his grandmother with me and both were impressed with what we saw and what we experienced.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by killjoy2012 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:26 am

So a very, very short test drive in a $100k vehicle that's a different model than the one you're considering purchasing, convinced you to buy their $40k model that they don't even have one of on-site to show you?

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Longdog » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:38 am

Of all the criticisms of the Model 3 that are regularly written about (as well as the many praises) the one area I’ve only seen praised is the way it drives. It was meant to be competitive with the Audi A4 and BMW 3 series, both of which are best in class rides. Based on professional as well as amateur reviews, I have every reason to believe it achieved that goal from a driving perspective.
Steve

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TomatoTomahto » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:45 am

killjoy2012 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:26 am
So a very, very short test drive in a $100k vehicle that's a different model than the one you're considering purchasing, convinced you to buy their $40k model that they don't even have one of on-site to show you?
You might be the winner of the “truth in username accuracy award.” :D

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by techrules » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:49 am

Does anyone know if the MA State credits are going to be extended? It seems that most of the deliveries happening in the next few weeks will no longer be eligible for the MOR-EV rebate program.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by niceguy7376 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:16 am

I was one of those that made the reservation 2 years back within the first hour that was allowed online. 2 other friends in my area did it too.
All 3 received the invitations on friday to make the confirmation.

Two of us visited the only showroom that has Model 3 for display (no test drives) and spent a couple of hours (with kids along who want to touch the screen and play with on 3, s and x models) and I have some more questions that i would love to get answers from existing tesla owners.

1. Heard that there is a 1K deliver fee. Is that true? Are there any other surprises?
2. How many days do I have before i make a decision to buy or hold my position?
3. What is the financing deals being offered on Model 3? Paying cash or getting a 0.9% loan would not be a decision maker in getting or not getting the car. This would be the next step after a decision is made to get the car.
4. Based on 2017 taxes, fed tax withhold across both of us was 10K. Our tax due was 7400. So we got a refund for the remaining 2.6K. Assuming the same numbers for 2018, how would we get our credit?

From my personal view, the decision is between the heart and the mind.
I have been in US for last 21 years and only has driven 2 corollas during that time (current is 2006 with 121K miles and a 45 mile one way commute from last month). Due to age, long work commute (that might exist till year end at a minimum) and a middle age crisis to spend a bit more on myself, i am leaning towards buying it now. I looked at all options and I feel that getting the model 3 now (with only upgrade of 1k for color) will cost 49K +1K + 1K (destination fee) + sales tax (7%) = 54570. Considering the 7.5K fed credit, mental accounting leaves it at 47070.
it is a stretch to buy this car by about 10K, but will make this car the preferred car in the weekends (instead of the highlander 2nd car) and save on gas on the current commute ($50 per week) and save time (by having the ability to go in HOV and toll lanes in metro atlanta).

on the other spectrum, we only live once and we have been decent savers for the income we make (never more than 110K) and we max our retirement accounts, HSA and IRA and nothing more.
Last edited by niceguy7376 on Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Longdog » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:49 am

niceguy7376 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:16 am
1. Heard that there is a 1K deliver fee. Is that true? Are there any other surprises?
2. How many days do I have before i make a decision to buy or hold my position?
3. What is the financing deals being offered on Model 3?
4. Based on 2017 taxes, fed tax withhold across both of us was 10K. Our tax due was 7400. Assuming the same numbers for 2018, how would we get our credit?

From my personal view, the decision is between the heart and the mind.
1. Yes, it is true. There are no doubt other surpsises, but if I revealed them here they wouldn’t be a surprise. :happy It’s a car so there are going to be the usual state mandated vehicle fees.
2. No limit. Even if you hold your position, you can unhold it at any time and place your order. The purpose of this button is for Tesla to get a sense of the demand for AWD and standard range models.
3. Nothing special being offered for the Model 3. And no lease deal being offered by Tesla. Shop around if you need financing. However, as a Boglehead, I would advise you to pay cash and if you cannot pay cash get a less expensive car or wait until you can afford to pay cash. (I would never dare say that on the Tesla forum, for which I have a different username and thus a different persona :happy)
4. You get your credit when you file your taxes, or throughout the year if you adjust your withholdings. With a tax obligation of $17,400 you’d be eligible for the full credit.
Steve

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by EHEngineer » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:59 pm

10 days ago I got my M3 configuration invitation. However, tesla's reaction to the deadly March autopilot MX crash has dampened my enthusiasm and I'm wondering what yall think about this.

I was very dissapointed in their response. I wanted a response similar to the deadly autopilot MS crash in FL in 2015. My paraphrasing of that: " We're sorry this happened. We know what happened. We're going to fix it." In contrast, for this 2018 crash they released a limited set of facts that point to driver failure to act. I don't doubt those facts. But they said nothing about why autopilot steered directly into a large steel/concrete barrier. No recognition of failure. promise to improve. No "We're sorry. We know what happened and we will fix it." Just blame on the driver. This has really shaken my faith in their focus on safety. What do yall think? Buy the car? buy it without AP? Buy something else? My own priority is safety, not luxury or sportyness. I would never have considered a tesla (or any luxury car) unless it has clear safety advantages over the more middle market brands.
Or, you can ... decline to let me, a stranger on the Internet, egg you on to an exercise in time-wasting, and you could say "I'm probably OK and I don't care about it that much." -Nisiprius

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by madbrain » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:02 pm

Longdog wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:49 am
4. You get your credit when you file your taxes, or throughout the year if you adjust your withholdings. With a tax obligation of $17,400 you’d be eligible for the full credit.
The "full" credit would depend on when one would take delivery of the car, if Tesla goes through the maximum number of vehicles eligible for the tax credit. It may be halved of negated completely if you wait another year for your preferred configuration.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by jdb » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:08 pm

EHEngineer wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:59 pm
10 days ago I got my M3 configuration invitation. However, tesla's reaction to the deadly March autopilot MX crash has dampened my enthusiasm and I'm wondering what yall think about this.

I was very dissapointed in their response. I wanted a response similar to the deadly autopilot MS crash in FL in 2015. My paraphrasing of that: " We're sorry this happened. We know what happened. We're going to fix it." In contrast, for this 2018 crash they released a limited set of facts that point to driver failure to act. I don't doubt those facts. But they said nothing about why autopilot steered directly into a large steel/concrete barrier. No recognition of failure. promise to improve. No "We're sorry. We know what happened and we will fix it." Just blame on the driver. This has really shaken my faith in their focus on safety. What do yall think? Buy the car? buy it without AP? Buy something else? My own priority is safety, not luxury or sportyness. I would never have considered a tesla (or any luxury car) unless it has clear safety advantages over the more middle market brands.
I use autopilot in Model X on a daily basis in rush hour traffic. In my opinion safest car that I have ever driven, especially with auto pilot where sensors are much faster than me in stopping car when car in front suddenly stops or an aggressive driver cuts in front without signal. Personally I like the first level of autopilot where car maintains set distance from car ahead and stops when anyone cuts in front but you still do the steering, though have also used auto steer but not at speed. As the Tesla manual explicitly states need to keep your hands on steering wheel and watching road at all times. Car signals you with beeps and large red text on dash if detects hands off wheel and soon cuts off power to car. Autopilot is in beta stage, certainly far from perfect as the Tesla driving manual clearly states. And needs to be improved. But any driver who ignores driving manual and car alerts and common sense by taking hands off steering wheel and eyes off road while driving, especially at speed, is in my opinion an idiot. Can’t legislate against idiots. Looking forward to buying two Model 3 with all wheel drive and auto pilot for adult sons. Good luck.
Last edited by jdb on Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by LadyGeek » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:09 pm

With regards to some earlier posts - Please stay on-topic, which is taking delivery of the Tesla 3 (or not). Rants about the CEO are off-topic.

Update - The off-topic posts have been removed, along with one reply.
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by macheta » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:21 pm

I would have a hard time taking delivery with all of the pressure. The amount of pressure coming from shareholders about production seems kind of scary.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by BrandonBogle » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:18 am

I have been fortunate to have had the opportunity to drive multiple Model 3s and be there when a few friends have picked their’s up.

Let’s be frank. It’s a different experience than most others when picking up a Tesla. Is it perfect? No. Could it be improved relatively easily? Yes. Has it really been a problem vs. people “sweating the small stuff”? Nope. But if you go expecting the same experience you get elsewhere, you will likely feel it was different than your expectations (for better or worse). I say that not only about delivery, but ordering process, service, communications as you get to delivery, etc.

Now, I’m biased. I’ve had my S for 2.5 years and I plan to drive it up to the Bogleheads Conference this year. I don’t have AutoPilot and while I would get AP in my next Tesla, I wouldn’t hesitate to buy a Tesla with or without it.

As for those wondering about safety, I have to say I feel incredibly safe in a Tesla. Communication is not Tesla’s strong point and Elon Musk is very matter-of-fact and doesn’t conform to traditional social graces. Thus, I wouldn’t read too much into Tesla’s response to the accident in CA. That said, look into the details of it, the non-sensationalized reporting about it and Tesla’s response, and decide how you feel about that.

At the end of the day, you should enjoy and feel happy about your car, regardless of whether it is a Tesla or one from another make.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by matjen » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:38 am

Tesla has halted the Model 3 production line. Although I guess disturbing if one was waiting for one, if they can fix things (biggish IF) then the right thing to do. The more problematic issue it seems to me is that they aren't paying their workers during the stoppage. Sort of screams cash flow problems.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/carolineodonov ... .ujyj7MloZ
The announcement of the four- to five-day production pause for the Model 3 came without warning, according to Tesla employees who spoke with BuzzFeed News. During the pause, workers are expected to use vacation days or stay home without pay; a small number of workers may be offered paid work elsewhere in the factory.
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by FoolStreet » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:59 am

Longdog wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:38 am
Of all the criticisms of the Model 3 that are regularly written about (as well as the many praises) the one area I’ve only seen praised is the way it drives. It was meant to be competitive with the Audi A4 and BMW 3 series, both of which are best in class rides. Based on professional as well as amateur reviews, I have every reason to believe it achieved that goal from a driving perspective.
In fact, the Model 3 outsold the A4 in the first quarter of 2018. It is the real deal if you are in the market for that type of car. I also like the Red. Red on white interior looks stunning. Blue on white, too.

Tech CU seems to have a 1.75 or 1.99 financing rate available.

I think for us it will come down to when our current BMW needs its next 3k repair, then see if we can get the 3 AWD then. Otherwise, we could even wait for the Model Y in 2020.

I love the availability of the supercharger network for road trips.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by FoolStreet » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:12 am

matjen wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:38 am
Tesla has halted the Model 3 production line. Although I guess disturbing if one was waiting for one, if they can fix things (biggish IF) then the right thing to do. The more problematic issue it seems to me is that they aren't paying their workers during the stoppage. Sort of screams cash flow problems.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/carolineodonov ... .ujyj7MloZ
The announcement of the four- to five-day production pause for the Model 3 came without warning, according to Tesla employees who spoke with BuzzFeed News. During the pause, workers are expected to use vacation days or stay home without pay; a small number of workers may be offered paid work elsewhere in the factory.
Expect them to stop the line to make improvements, after which production rates rise. That is what happened in February that led to the huge jump in production rate. All car makers have policies of not paying workers when the line stops. Pretty sure this is a headline grabber with not much real substance.

Cash flow is a critical concern when doubling, then doubling again production, then doubling again, etc. That is the nature of any high growth company. And it is one of the most basic issues highlighted in MBA case studies.

I highly recommend you read Shoe Dog, by the Founder of Nike, regarding cash flow.

What I want to point out is the positive impact on cash flow of Tesla’s sales model. They take 1k refundable reservations for the 3s, not counting the semis and the roadsters. And they charge another 2500 non-refundable when you place your order. Then they give you the option of paying for the car fully a week before delivery, or upon delivery. Compared to a traditional car maker, who builds the car, stores it on a dealer lot, gives the dealer a line of credit, etc...., this is a huge turn around and created cash flow before the car sells, not after. The more cars they build, the stronger their cash flow position. And I only see more interest in these cars with new reservations as they are now being seen on the market.


You may not like the stock price (but who cares about the stock price if you are an indexer), but they are a real deal US car manufacturer. Very cool!

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Strummer » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:34 am

niceguy7376 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:16 am
1. Heard that there is a 1K deliver fee. Is that true? Are there any other surprises?
Here are all the currently available options and their prices:

Model 3 $35,000
Long-range battery $9,000
Premium upgrades $5,000
Non-black paint $1,000
19" sport wheels $1,500
Enhanced Autopilot $5,000
Full self-driving $3,000

Full self-driving capability is sold with the proviso that it may be some time before that option is actually enabled in the car. It should also be noted that both autopilot and FSD can be added after you take delivery of the car, but it will cost you more ($6,000 and $4,000, respectively).

There is a $1,000 destination and regulatory doc fee which covers delivery and documentation. There will be sales tax (if applicable in your state) as well as other governmental fees (license and registration, for example). That's it.

This Google Doc has lots of details on pricing as well as the incentives that are currently offered by the federal government and some states:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =952958776

We picked ours up a few weeks ago and my wife and I both love it.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by neilpilot » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:50 pm

Strummer wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:34 am

Full self-driving capability is sold with the proviso that it may be some time before that option is actually enabled in the car. It should also be noted that both autopilot and FSD can be added after you take delivery of the car, but it will cost you more ($6,000 and $4,000, respectively).
Many consumers don't realize that there's a significant leap to go from autopilot to FSD. They think that the current M3 autopilot is 90%+ of the way to FSD technology. I don't share their optimism.

LDAR (Light Detection and Ranging) is not part of the M3 package, or any of the other Tesla models. Many research concerns and pundits think that FSD is likely not possible without LDAR or some other similar form of sensor system. But LDAR is not installed in the M3. I would't be surprised if FSD never happens for the M3, and it certainly won't be included in my M3 order, if I ever do place an order.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by 4nursebee » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:14 pm

Foolstreet said "I highly recommend you read Shoe Dog, by the Founder of Nike, regarding cash flow."

For the purpose of recent discussion related to TSLA, could you summarize what you got our of the book?
Is it a worthwhile book otherwise?
4nursebee

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by 4nursebee » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:21 pm

EHEngineer wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:59 pm
10 days ago I got my M3 configuration invitation. However, tesla's reaction to the deadly March autopilot MX crash has dampened my enthusiasm and I'm wondering what yall think about this.

I was very dissapointed in their response. I wanted a response similar to the deadly autopilot MS crash in FL in 2015. My paraphrasing of that: " We're sorry this happened. We know what happened. We're going to fix it." In contrast, for this 2018 crash they released a limited set of facts that point to driver failure to act. I don't doubt those facts. But they said nothing about why autopilot steered directly into a large steel/concrete barrier. No recognition of failure. promise to improve. No "We're sorry. We know what happened and we will fix it." Just blame on the driver. This has really shaken my faith in their focus on safety. What do yall think? Buy the car? buy it without AP? Buy something else? My own priority is safety, not luxury or sportyness. I would never have considered a tesla (or any luxury car) unless it has clear safety advantages over the more middle market brands.
I am not concerned about the company response:
1. It is not a self driving car.
2. The car did warn the guy, he ignored it.
3. He knew the limitations, including right there, and ignored them.
4. THIS IS THE BIG ONE: I watched the video of someone else taking the same path and nearly wrecking. To my eyes, the system was following the dominant painted line.

Video/news report shows what I describe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o02H2xGIecc
Last edited by 4nursebee on Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by FoolStreet » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:23 pm

neilpilot wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:50 pm
Strummer wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:34 am

Full self-driving capability is sold with the proviso that it may be some time before that option is actually enabled in the car. It should also be noted that both autopilot and FSD can be added after you take delivery of the car, but it will cost you more ($6,000 and $4,000, respectively).
Many consumers don't realize that there's a significant leap to go from autopilot to FSD. They think that the current M3 autopilot is 90%+ of the way to FSD technology. I don't share their optimism.

LDAR (Light Detection and Ranging) is not part of the M3 package, or any of the other Tesla models. Many research concerns and pundits think that FSD is likely not possible without LDAR or some other similar form of sensor system. But LDAR is not installed in the M3. I would't be surprised if FSD never happens for the M3, and it certainly won't be included in my M3 order, if I ever do place an order.
A couple things worth noting for safety...

It is worth clarifying that Autopilot is really just “enhanced” cruise control. It requires you to be 100% responsible at all times and to keep your hands on the wheel.

Tesla uses Radar and cameras, with a neural network for learning. Lidar is expensive and has issues with fog. Radar does not do well detecting stationary objects, as shown by the driver who rear ended a fire truck when not paying attention. This is a critical point that is documented and being worked on. But combining radar and cameras and the neural network training, you get better and better results.

Don’t expect to turn on autopilot and take a nap!

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by BrandonBogle » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:25 pm

neilpilot wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:50 pm
Strummer wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:34 am

Full self-driving capability is sold with the proviso that it may be some time before that option is actually enabled in the car. It should also be noted that both autopilot and FSD can be added after you take delivery of the car, but it will cost you more ($6,000 and $4,000, respectively).
Many consumers don't realize that there's a significant leap to go from autopilot to FSD. They think that the current M3 autopilot is 90%+ of the way to FSD technology. I don't share their optimism.

LDAR (Light Detection and Ranging) is not part of the M3 package, or any of the other Tesla models. Many research concerns and pundits think that FSD is likely not possible without LDAR or some other similar form of sensor system. But LDAR is not installed in the M3. I would't be surprised if FSD never happens for the M3, and it certainly won't be included in my M3 order, if I ever do place an order.
While I personally am NOT in the camp that thinks LiDAR (as generally available today) is necessary to achieve FSD as the imaging + radar tech is continuing to advance without the large cost of LiDAR (which is coming down in cost), I agree that FSD anytime soon is essentially a "pipe dream". In my personal frugal opinion, I would NOT purchase the $3k FSD upgrade on any Tesla vehicle. While it may cost $1k more to activate "after the fact", I rather have that be a cost of prudence. I won't be getting FSD until it is actively demonstrable to the public -- and this same statement would apply to any manufacturer, not just Tesla. Even if the tech were ready tomorrow, the regulatory environment will take time to allow it to be used by consumers. While us Bogleheads tend to hold our vehicles longer than the average member of the public, we easily could be onto our next vehicle by the time FSD is a reality. Now I just hope that "on our next vehicle" is simply because we decided its time for a change and not because our vehicles were stolen or in severe accidents.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by FoolStreet » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:35 pm

4nursebee wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:14 pm
Foolstreet said "I highly recommend you read Shoe Dog, by the Founder of Nike, regarding cash flow."

For the purpose of recent discussion related to TSLA, could you summarize what you got our of the book?
Is it a worthwhile book otherwise?
Nike permeates our culture so there is that. Regarding TSLA (To the extent that this thread is about buying a Tesla, not TSLA), Phil Knight’s shares what it was like growing his company from nothing and doubling sales every year. There was no Venture Capital back then, so he relied on Lines of credit to buy and manufacture the shoes, then wait months for the shoes to arrive and sell them, reinvesting every penny of profit into buying more shoes. Banks were used to lending based on stable run rate businesses that had assets. Nike had no assets. Their bankers were constantly in doubt about Nike’s solvency, yet restricting access to capital would have bankrupted them.

At the end of the day, Nike changed running and became a force for popularizing it. The story shed light on the passion held by the founders, employees and consumers. An amazing story with a lot of parallels to TSLA with many more personal anecdotes and twists and turns. Worth a read or a listen on audiobook.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Leif » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:42 pm

I don't know if LiDAR will be required or not. If the goal is to simply be better than an average human driver, I think it is probably not required. After all, our eyes to not have lasers or radar, and we easily lose attention to our driving. I think the ultimate solution will be all cars "talk" to each other and the car scans the area for problems.

I'm an owner of a Model S, with enhanced Autopilot (EAP) and FSD. I made a mistake in buying these. As mentioned earlier, EAP is just a bit better than adaptive cruise control. Not worth $5K for what is does. Why did I get it? It is necessary for FSD. FSD is not standalone. But now after 1 1/2 years I've received nada in functionality for my $3K FSD. Having been burned, my suggestion is to not buy vaporware.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by FoolStreet » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:52 pm

Leif wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:42 pm
I don't know if LiDAR will be required or not. If the goal is to simply be better than an average human driver, I think it is probably not required. After all, our eyes to not have lasers or radar, and we easily lose attention to our driving. I think the ultimate solution will be all cars "talk" to each other and the car scans the area for problems.

I'm an owner of a Model S, with enhanced Autopilot (EAP) and FSD. I made a mistake in buying these. As mentioned earlier, EAP is just a bit better than adaptive cruise control. Not worth $5K for what is does. Why did I get it? It is necessary for FSD. FSD is not standalone. But now after 1 1/2 years I've received nada in functionality for my $3K FSD. Having been burned, my suggestion is to not buy vaporware.

If we were to Consider the value of EAP separate from the FSD, I would guess that EAP would be worth it. You have an S and I do not. But I would value the extra traffic awareness that comes from EAP like lane keeping and traffic aware cruise control. Lane change assist, etc. I assume it would make a road trip tremendously safer.

I also assume most people buying a new car would opt for enhanced safety features which you would compare to EAP. And EAP gets better with over the air updates. I would assume EAP would be very valuable. I would buy it or it’s equivalent in any new vehicle purchase.

There are pros/cons to pre buying FSD but I would be inclined to do that too, pitting it under the category of “new toy” unless it proves more than that.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Leif » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:23 pm

FoolStreet wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:52 pm
If we were to Consider the value of EAP separate from the FSD, I would guess that EAP would be worth it. You have an S and I do not. But I would value the extra traffic awareness that comes from EAP like lane keeping and traffic aware cruise control. Lane change assist, etc. I assume it would make a road trip tremendously safer.

I also assume most people buying a new car would opt for enhanced safety features which you would compare to EAP. And EAP gets better with over the air updates. I would assume EAP would be very valuable. I would buy it or it’s equivalent in any new vehicle purchase.

There are pros/cons to pre buying FSD but I would be inclined to do that too, pitting it under the category of “new toy” unless it proves more than that.
I'll expand a bit on my comments.

EAP has gotten better, over time, with over-the-air (OTA) updates. Some of my personal experiences.

1. EAP may decide it wants to take an off ramp from freeway. It happens rarely, but it is very disturbing when it happens. I took a road trip a few months ago. I was using EAP. It decided it wanted to take an off ramp. I had to take back control and "jerk" it back to the freeway lane I was in. My fellow passengers were understandably upset.

2. EAP gets a bit confused if the lane markings are missing or faded. I've experienced it moving back and forth to try to figure out the lane boundaries.

3. EAP sometimes refuses to change lanes, even though there is no traffic to prevent the maneuver. That seems to be better recently.

4. EAP does not "see" break lights so it does not slow as soon as I would for slow/stopped traffic ahead.

So, for me, the value of EAP is limited. I really only "sort of" trust it in lanes not next to an off ramp and on a well marked freeway. Otherwise, I feel less comfortable then driving myself. I am hoping for improvements, but recently, perhaps due to the Model 3 production, updates are coming less frequently. After that then what? Model Y? The roadster II? The semi?

Since I'm not getting any younger the real payoff will be FSD if that ever materializes.
Last edited by Leif on Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Thesaints » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:26 pm

Leif wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:23 pm
1. EAP may decide it wants to take an off ramp from freeway...
2. EAP gets a bit confused if the lane markings are missing or faded...
3. EAP sometimes refuses to change lanes...
4. EAP does not "see" break lights so it does not slow as soon as I would for slow/stopped traffic ahead.

So, for value, the value of EAP is limited.
"limited" sounds like an euphemism: 1-4 are a textbook description of an inept driver.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Leif » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:29 pm

Thesaints wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:26 pm
"limited" sounds like an euphemism: 1-4 are a textbook description of an inept driver.
It is better now, but in the beginning it was really like having a 8 year, on your lap, driving for the first time.

By the way, I should add, I'm using Autopilot 2.0. That is the Tesla created version. Previous to that a third party developed the autopilot software/hardware.
Last edited by Leif on Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Thesaints » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:33 pm

Leif wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:29 pm
Thesaints wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:26 pm
"limited" sounds like an euphemism: 1-4 are a textbook description of an inept driver.
It is better now, but in the beginning it was really like having a 8 year, on your lap, driving for the first time.
I would have guessed an 88-yo driving for the last :)

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by FoolStreet » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:33 pm

Leif wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:23 pm
FoolStreet wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:52 pm
If we were to Consider the value of EAP separate from the FSD, I would guess that EAP would be worth it. You have an S and I do not. But I would value the extra traffic awareness that comes from EAP like lane keeping and traffic aware cruise control. Lane change assist, etc. I assume it would make a road trip tremendously safer.

I also assume most people buying a new car would opt for enhanced safety features which you would compare to EAP. And EAP gets better with over the air updates. I would assume EAP would be very valuable. I would buy it or it’s equivalent in any new vehicle purchase.

There are pros/cons to pre buying FSD but I would be inclined to do that too, pitting it under the category of “new toy” unless it proves more than that.
I'll expand a bit on my comments.

EAP has gotten better, over time, with over-the-air (OTA) updates. Some of my personal experiences.

1. EAP may decide it wants to take an off ramp from freeway. It happens rarely, but it is very disturbing when it happens. I took a road trip a few months ago. I was using EAP. It decided it wanted to take an off ramp. I had to take back control and "jerk" it back to the freeway lane I was in. My fellow passengers were understandably upset.

2. EAP gets a bit confused if the lane markings are missing or faded. I've experienced it moving back and forth to try to figure out the lane boundaries.

3. EAP sometimes refuses to change lanes, even though there is no traffic to prevent the maneuver. That seems to be better recently.

4. EAP does not "see" break lights so it does not slow as soon as I would for slow/stopped traffic ahead.

So, for me, the value of EAP is limited. I really only "sort of" trust it in lanes not next to an off ramp and on a well marked freeway. Otherwise, I feel less comfortable then driving myself. I am hoping for improvements, but recently, perhaps due to the Model 3 production, updates are coming less frequently. After that then what? Model Y? The roadster II? The semi?

Since I'm not getting any younger the real payoff will be FSD if that ever materializes.
I have heard about those issues so I would go in with eyes wide open, figuratively and literally.

Knowing I wouldn’t buy until late 2018 either way, I am hopeful that there will be ongoing improvements by then, both because of the added time for development, but also the thousands of new cars on the road collecting new data and iterating.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Leif » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:38 pm

FoolStreet wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:33 pm
Knowing I wouldn’t buy until late 2018 either way, I am hopeful that there will be ongoing improvements by then, both because of the added time for development, but also the thousands of new cars on the road collecting new data and iterating.
Amen brother (or sister).

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by madbrain » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:29 pm

Leif wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:42 pm
I'm an owner of a Model S, with enhanced Autopilot (EAP) and FSD. I made a mistake in buying these. As mentioned earlier, EAP is just a bit better than adaptive cruise control. Not worth $5K for what is does. Why did I get it? It is necessary for FSD. FSD is not standalone. But now after 1 1/2 years I've received nada in functionality for my $3K FSD. Having been burned, my suggestion is to not buy vaporware.
If Tesla is not actually able to deliver on FSD within the expected lifespan of the car, would they refund you the $3K ?
I don't suppose this is an option that can be retrofitted installed post-sale, is it ? Same question for the EAP, or EAP+FSD.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by junior » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:25 pm

I wouldn't buy a Tesla expecting the self driving to ever work on hardware they are selling today. The industry consensus seems to be that Waymo (google) and GM are ahead of Tesla in developing self driving, and they are likely to go through multiple iterations of hardware as their software gets more sophisticated. Your Tesla will be stuck on outdated computer chips and sensors that were created before functional self driving system software.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Leif » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:47 pm

madbrain wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:29 pm
If Tesla is not actually able to deliver on FSD within the expected lifespan of the car, would they refund you the $3K ?
I don't suppose this is an option that can be retrofitted installed post-sale, is it ? Same question for the EAP, or EAP+FSD.
I don't know the answer to your questions. All the cars that have autopilot 2.0+ have the hardware, radar, cameras, ultrasonic sensors. They say if the hardware is not sufficient, such as not enough processing power, they will upgrade for free for those that purchased. Interestingly, the people that provided them with the image processing hardware, Nvidia, don't believe the 2.0 hardware is sufficient. Tesla thinks it is sufficient. I have a feeling this may well end up in court as a class action. But perhaps they will pull a rabbit out of the hat.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by madbrain » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:36 pm

Leif wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:47 pm
madbrain wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:29 pm
If Tesla is not actually able to deliver on FSD within the expected lifespan of the car, would they refund you the $3K ?
I don't suppose this is an option that can be retrofitted installed post-sale, is it ? Same question for the EAP, or EAP+FSD.
I don't know the answer to your questions. All the cars that have autopilot 2.0+ have the hardware, radar, cameras, ultrasonic sensors. They say if the hardware is not sufficient, such as not enough processing power, they will upgrade for free for those that purchased. Interestingly, the people that provided them with the image processing hardware, Nvidia, don't believe the 2.0 hardware is sufficient. Tesla thinks it is sufficient. I have a feeling this may well end up in court as a class action. But perhaps they will pull a rabbit out of the hat.
Yeah, class action sounds like a real possibility. It's one thing to put a deposit on a car, but quite another to fund FSD research that is still open-ended.

If lawyers get involved, maybe you will get a discount on your next Tesla with FSD, if they actually end up figuring it out. If they don't figure out, that could end up very badly for both the company and customers. I wonder how many are paying for EAP+FSD now only because they want FSD.
Your description of EAP was quite scary. I never really understood what good partial self driving really was for. If you have to be just as attentive to the driving as without the auto-pilot, what does it really buy you ?

From an article that came out today :
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/04/wh ... for-tesla/
Systems in the middle—with human driver and software both sharing some responsibility—are a safety hazard. Once a self-driving system gets pretty good, humans start to trust it and stop paying attention to the road. This can happen long before the system is actually safer than a human driver, leading to more fatalities rather than fewer.

That's the conclusion Google reached several years ago when it shifted from building driver-assistance technology to building cars that are designed to be fully autonomous from the start.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by cantos » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:55 pm

We are a long way from self-driving cars. My Ford Fusion's lane-keeping system has the same issue as the Tesla. If your car is scanning the lines on the road for lanes, it is dangerous when the lines converge and diverge, faded in one area but not in the other, as the car wants to go where the lanes it sees are. This is terrible in non-perfect road conditions (so, everyday road conditions), and especially in the snow/rain.

I do like adaptive cruise control - the car is looking at what is ahead, how far ahead, the speed of the thing ahead, etc - that makes sense and captures physical objects in movement as it is supposed to be, and does not depend on something as stupid as whether a lane is properly marked.

For now, the best solution is assisted driving - a car that gives you warnings, assists in what you do (like adaptive), and is in no way "auto" or "self" driving.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by FoolStreet » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:14 pm

madbrain wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:36 pm
Leif wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:47 pm
madbrain wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:29 pm
If Tesla is not actually able to deliver on FSD within the expected lifespan of the car, would they refund you the $3K ?
I don't suppose this is an option that can be retrofitted installed post-sale, is it ? Same question for the EAP, or EAP+FSD.
I don't know the answer to your questions. All the cars that have autopilot 2.0+ have the hardware, radar, cameras, ultrasonic sensors. They say if the hardware is not sufficient, such as not enough processing power, they will upgrade for free for those that purchased. Interestingly, the people that provided them with the image processing hardware, Nvidia, don't believe the 2.0 hardware is sufficient. Tesla thinks it is sufficient. I have a feeling this may well end up in court as a class action. But perhaps they will pull a rabbit out of the hat.
Yeah, class action sounds like a real possibility. It's one thing to put a deposit on a car, but quite another to fund FSD research that is still open-ended.

If lawyers get involved, maybe you will get a discount on your next Tesla with FSD, if they actually end up figuring it out. If they don't figure out, that could end up very badly for both the company and customers. I wonder how many are paying for EAP+FSD now only because they want FSD.
Your description of EAP was quite scary. I never really understood what good partial self driving really was for. If you have to be just as attentive to the driving as without the auto-pilot, what does it really buy you ?

From an article that came out today :
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/04/wh ... for-tesla/
Systems in the middle—with human driver and software both sharing some responsibility—are a safety hazard. Once a self-driving system gets pretty good, humans start to trust it and stop paying attention to the road. This can happen long before the system is actually safer than a human driver, leading to more fatalities rather than fewer.

That's the conclusion Google reached several years ago when it shifted from building driver-assistance technology to building cars that are designed to be fully autonomous from the start.
It all depends on your perspective. If you think EAP is full self driving, you will be disappointed.

If you think EAP is like cruise control-plus, then you will be delighted.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Leif » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:37 pm

madbrain wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:36 pm
If you have to be just as attentive to the driving as without the auto-pilot, what does it really buy you ?
I treat it as adaptive cruise control (an expensive one). I keep my hands on the steering wheel at all times. To do otherwise is risking your life. Tesla will be the first to tell you:

1. It is a beta system (you must agree when you activate it).
2. It is a driver assistance feature, not self driving. If you keep your hands off the wheel for too long it will warn you. If you get too many warnings in a single driving session it will disable EAP until you pull the car over and set to park (starting a new driving session).

Tesla says that records show their are involved in 40% less accidents. They do have emergency breaking if the car detects (I believe from the radar) that a crash is very likely it will apply the breaks. It will beep if it thinks you are approaching a car too quickly. However, you get these safety features regardless of your purchase of EAP or FSD.
Systems in the middle—with human driver and software both sharing some responsibility—are a safety hazard. Once a self-driving system gets pretty good, humans start to trust it and stop paying attention to the road. This can happen long before the system is actually safer than a human driver, leading to more fatalities rather than fewer.

That's the conclusion Google reached several years ago when it shifted from building driver-assistance technology to building cars that are designed to be fully autonomous from the start.
I agree. That is a reason why I don't want to depend on it. At least in its current beta form.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Leif » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:05 am

FoolStreet wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:14 pm

It all depends on your perspective. If you think EAP is full self driving, you will be disappointed.
Agreed. It is not.
FoolStreet wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:14 pm
If you think EAP is like cruise control-plus, then you will be delighted.
Not so sure about that based on my experience. It is the "plus" that can get you into trouble.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TravelGeek » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:57 am

Leif wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:37 pm
I treat it as adaptive cruise control (an expensive one). I keep my hands on the steering wheel at all times. To do otherwise is risking your life. Tesla will be the first to tell you:

1. It is a beta system (you must agree when you activate it).
2. It is a driver assistance feature, not self driving. If you keep your hands off the wheel for too long it will warn you. If you get too many warnings in a single driving session it will disable EAP until you pull the car over and set to park (starting a new driving session).
I think part of the problem is not only technology but also branding. They call it “Auto Pilot”, but it doesn’t seem to actually resemble what aircraft auto pilot systems are capable of these days.

I have never driven a Tesla, but I did test drive the new Nissan LEAF with ProPilot. I can’t compare it to Tesla’s system, but I don’t think, based on my limited test drive on a freeway in Portland OR that I would use it very much if I had it. I love the adaptive cruise control of our Subaru EyeSight system, because it reliably eliminates the need to manually fine-tune the speed as vehicles in front of me speed up or slow down. But ProPilot maybe (if the road markers are good enough) automatically staying in the lane as the road curves doesn’t add a lot of value for me personally. The lane departure warning system of EyeSight seems to be a sufficient solution; if it were to mis-calculate, I wouldn’t end up crashing into a concrete barrier.

Question: how do the Tesla camera sensors handle direct sunlight? The Forester beeps and turns off EyeSight if its cameras faces straight into the sun low on the horizon (usually when human drivers would squint and hopefully at least slow down).

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by BrandonBogle » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:15 am

Leif wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:37 pm
madbrain wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:36 pm
If you have to be just as attentive to the driving as without the auto-pilot, what does it really buy you ?
I treat it as adaptive cruise control (an expensive one). I keep my hands on the steering wheel at all times. To do otherwise is risking your life. Tesla will be the first to tell you:

1. It is a beta system (you must agree when you activate it).
Just to be clear, the Autosteer aspect is Beta, not the Traffic Aware Cruise Control (Tesla's branding for adaptive cruise control).

Either way, outside of actually wanting FSD (which is foolish to think you will get right away), this shouldn't factor into taking or not taking delivery of a Model 3. Sure, if what you actually want is FSD, maybe you take or not take a Tesla, but honestly, it is not very prudent to be buying any vehicle on the promise that it will eventually do X or Y. We don't buy Vanguard funds because they may go down in ER some day - we buy them for what they provide today and/or to support Vanguard.

Folks, this thread was locked once already. While the discussion of whether your Model 3 will ever have FSD is relevant, let us please not take it so far that the thread gets locked again.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:34 am

Strummer wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:34 am

There is a $1,000 destination and regulatory doc fee which covers delivery and documentation.
And just like every other slime ball dealer, the doc fee is a renamed "Additional Dealer Markup", but in this case, directly from the factory.

Note: The first time a dealer charged me a doc fee was in 1991 and it was $5. I told them to lose the fee or cancel the deal. Today, this is the built in dealer profit so dealers can sell the car "below invoice". There's nothing "regulatory" about the doc fee.

Ok, now that my rant is done, had they simply said $1000 shipping, I'd think that they were less slime balls.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by kchico » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:38 am

I got an email to configure my model 3 two week ago but I am waiting to see how much the AWD and Performance version will cost.

I already saw a model 3 in person and sat in it. It looks amazing from the outside the inside is a little strange since it looks like nothing else. My only concern is that my net worth is only 650k with a house paid off and a 160k gross household income and this car is probably going to cost 65k :| . I am planning on putting down half the money... From most of the reviews it seems that the car is blast to drive.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by BrandonBogle » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:22 am

kchico wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:38 am
the inside is a little strange since it looks like nothing else.
Have you sat in a Mini Cooper?

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Leif » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:32 am

BrandonBogle wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:15 am
Just to be clear, the Autosteer aspect is Beta, not the Traffic Aware Cruise Control (Tesla's branding for adaptive cruise control).
I've been told, and correct me if I'm wrong, but if you don't buy the EAP, you do not get Traffic Aware Cruise Control, TACC. Instead you get just the set a speed and it will maintain that speed type of cruise control. I really don't know if opting out of autopilot beta turns off TACC. As an experiment, I think I will try that and see. But to be clear, I was discussing autopilot in my points and not TACC.

IMO this discussion is very focused on the point of the thread, which is to buy or not to buy a Model 3. As an extension of that, if you decide to buy which options are best to buy or not buy.
Last edited by Leif on Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

kchico
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:58 pm

Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by kchico » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:40 am

BrandonBogle wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:22 am
kchico wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:38 am
the inside is a little strange since it looks like nothing else.
Have you sat in a Mini Cooper?
No never. It just really simple and it was strange to me to not have the dash gauge cluster in front of me. I bet I will get use to it... I don't really care about nice interiors I enjoy more the driving experience and the exterior. I was sold on how it looks, the front part of the interior was ok but If had the chance to drive that would have seal the deal completely for me.

I owned a WRX and a Mitsubishi EVO 8 and the interiors on those cars are bad from what people say but I enjoyed the cars a lot. The model 3 interior is way better.

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