Long term care insurance

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losangchodren
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Long term care insurance

Post by losangchodren » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:56 pm

I have just become a "Boglehead" and am interested in getting some information on best long term care insurance that would be available in the state of Pennsylvania. I greatly appreciate any advice. My father's old policy is a dream come true and I know those types of policies don't exist any more, but am interested in securing a plan. Thank you! :happy

mhalley
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by mhalley » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:06 pm

Clark Howard has a few recommendations. In the last few years, many companies have stopped writing policies, he is down to about five now.
https://clark.com/insurance/long-term-c ... ance-help/

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JaneyLH
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by JaneyLH » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:13 pm

My husband and I have had John Hancock policies for about 5 years, since our late 50s. We have had two rate hikes but not too dramatic. So far we are continuing to pay to keep the same coverage. According to Clark Howard's advice, we are "wealthy enough" to self insure but we want to protect each other in case one of us has the need for nursing home care -- not spend down remaining assets. We have 4 years of coverage, not lifetime, as that is about twice the average length of stay in a nursing home. We like having the peace of mind and can handle the $4k bill each year.

FBN2014
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by FBN2014 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:41 pm

I would check into asset based LTC policies also in addition to traditional policies. Nationwide, State Life and Lincoln Financial are the top carriers for asset based policies. The unique feature with asset based is that if you do not need LTC then the policy pays a death benefit to your heirs. They also have a return of premium if you cancel the policy.
"October is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May March, June, December, August and February." - M. Twain

RetiredCSProf
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by RetiredCSProf » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:26 am

I have an asset-based LTC policy with Lincoln Financial. I paid extra for an inflation rider. I purchased the policy with a single, lump sum premium so that I do not need to worry about annual increases in the premium.

jeffh19
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by jeffh19 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:07 am

I have experience in LTC and I’ve never been a huge fan of the policies as they often have rules on when and how much they’ll actually pay out, and people don’t seem to get the money they thought out of if after paying in for 50 years. Not all the time, but it’s common

My plan is to self insure. For all the money you spend for 20-60 years on the policy, why not just invest that along the way and have a lot more money and you can use it however you like whenever you like.

Zonian59
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Location: California

Re: Long term care insurance

Post by Zonian59 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:55 am

An acquaintance claims to have bought a LTC insurance a long time ago that provided for indefinite LTC. He didn't say who the insurer is, but admits the premiums are expensive. He also feels pretty sure that as long as he is willing to pay those premiums, they can't cancel the policy.

Do such a policy that provides indefinite LTC still exist?

Otherwise I am thinking that when I need to be put in long term assisted care, I will sell my house and finance the LTC through the proceeds for as long as the proceeds last. If I'm still alive after the proceeds are exhausted, then Medi-Cal can take over.

Freefun
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by Freefun » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:06 am

Did lots of research and I may go with Lincoln moneyguard. I also had policies for my mother so I learned the hard way about rising premiums.
Remember when you wanted what you currently have?

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Watty
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by Watty » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:46 am

One thing to keep in mind is that if you are single or there is only one spouse surviving when LTC is needed that many of your other expenses will stop when you go into LTC.

This means that the increase in cost might be a lot less than many people think when they see the LTC costs. I live in Atlanta where the LTC costs are relatively low compared to some areas. This web site lists the cost here as being;

Assisted living: $34,800
Nursing home, semi-private: $72,270

https://www.genworth.com/about-us/indus ... -care.html

I have a paid off house and my basic retirement budget is around $60,000. If only one of us is surviving when LTC is needed then there would still be costs for things like medicare supplements, prescription costs, some necessities, etc. It is just a wild guess that might bring the living costs up to $90K a year with the LTC cost. That is just a gap of $30K a year above my normal costs and my house could be sold to free up the home equity to help fund that. There have been post here by people with such a high retirement budget that their costs would actually go down if LTC was needed by one surviving spouse.

The big risk for me is that LTC will be needed while both my wife and I are still surviving. This of course does happen especially with dementia but having a surviving spouse to help can delay when LTC is actually needed.

JoeRetire
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by JoeRetire » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:59 am

My wife and I use Mutual of Omaha.


westrichj312
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by westrichj312 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:27 am

LTC policies are one of the biggest sucker purchases out there. There are other legal ways to get around i. Find a good estate/asset protection attorney and protect yourself with a trust and you will get LTC free in almost any state.

FBN2014
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by FBN2014 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:18 am

westrichj312 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:27 am
LTC policies are one of the biggest sucker purchases out there. There are other legal ways to get around i. Find a good estate/asset protection attorney and protect yourself with a trust and you will get LTC free in almost any state.
There is a 5 year look back to transfer assets for Medicaid eligibility. Is that what you are referring to?
"October is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May March, June, December, August and February." - M. Twain

jimishooch
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by jimishooch » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:31 pm

RetiredCSProf wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:26 am
I have an asset-based LTC policy with Lincoln Financial. I paid extra for an inflation rider. I purchased the policy with a single, lump sum premium so that I do not need to worry about annual increases in the premium.
+1...we also purchased the optional lifetime benefits rider.

WoW2012
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:55 pm

Zonian59 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:55 am
An acquaintance claims to have bought a LTC insurance a long time ago that provided for indefinite LTC. He didn't say who the insurer is, but admits the premiums are expensive. He also feels pretty sure that as long as he is willing to pay those premiums, they can't cancel the policy.

Do such a policy that provides indefinite LTC still exist?
There are policies that have benefits with no lifetime cap. But, if you buy a long-term care partnership policy you can protect all your assets from Medicaid even if the policy runs out of benefits.

WoW2012
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:56 pm

westrichj312 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:27 am
LTC policies are one of the biggest sucker purchases out there. There are other legal ways to get around i. Find a good estate/asset protection attorney and protect yourself with a trust and you will get LTC free in almost any state.

And the tax consequences of putting a retirement account into an irrevocable trust are.......?

pshonore
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by pshonore » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:04 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:55 pm
Zonian59 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:55 am
An acquaintance claims to have bought a LTC insurance a long time ago that provided for indefinite LTC. He didn't say who the insurer is, but admits the premiums are expensive. He also feels pretty sure that as long as he is willing to pay those premiums, they can't cancel the policy.

Do such a policy that provides indefinite LTC still exist?
There are policies that have benefits with no lifetime cap. But, if you buy a long-term care partnership policy you can protect all your assets from Medicaid even if the policy runs out of benefits.
I think partnership policies protect assets up to the current payout limit of your policy. If you have a $6k/month benefit for 4 yrs, that would allow you to keep $288K if your wind up on Medicaid.

WoW2012
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:27 pm

pshonore wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:04 pm

I think partnership policies protect assets up to the current payout limit of your policy. If you have a $6k/month benefit for 4 yrs, that would allow you to keep $288K if your wind up on Medicaid.

For each dollar the policy pays in benefits, one dollar can be protected from Medicaid.
Partnership policies are required to have inflation protection so the policy limit increases every year.
They are more affordable than unlimited policies because one only needs to buy an amount of benefits equal to the amount of assets they want to protect.
Last edited by WoW2012 on Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pshonore
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by pshonore » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:35 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:27 pm
pshonore wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:04 pm
I think partnership policies protect assets up to the current payout limit of your policy. If you have a $6k/month benefit for 4 yrs, that would allow you to keep $288K if your wind up on Medicaid.



For each dollar the policy pays in benefits, one dollar can be protected from Medicaid.
Partnership policies are required to have inflation protection so the policy limit increases every year.
They are more affordable than unlimited policies because one only needs to buy an amount of benefits equal to the amount of assets they want to protect.
I'd be surprised if anyone is writing new unlimited policies. Non-inflation policies are also cheap but that's being penny wise and pound foolish in my opinion

jimishooch
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by jimishooch » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:37 pm


WoW2012
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:39 pm

There are two companies that are writing new unlimited policies.
Last edited by WoW2012 on Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

beardsworth
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by beardsworth » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:52 pm

JaneyLH wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:13 pm
My husband and I have had John Hancock policies for about 5 years, since our late 50s. We have had two rate hikes but not too dramatic. . . . We like having the peace of mind and can handle the $4k bill each year.
Glad you are pleased with your policies from Hancock.

However, the OP is asking for recommendations on a new policy. While Hancock continues to service its previously issued LTC policies, in late 2016 the company exited this market and stopped issuing new policies.

beardsworth
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by beardsworth » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:04 pm

As with most discussions of this subject, the term "self-insure" has made an appearance.

The concept of insurance involves pooling of risk, on the assumption that no one knows in advance which people in the pool will need to use the coverage (I paid premiums into the pool, and I made a claim when my house burned down) and which people will not (I paid premiums into the pool but my house didn't burn down).

Whether for home insurance, long-term care, or any other risk, a decision not to purchase a policy, and to just keep a bunch of money on the sidelines if the need arrives, is not "insuring." No risk is being pooled with anyone else. A more accurate term would simply be "fund my own" or "pay out-of-pocket."

WoW2012
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:24 pm

pshonore wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:35 pm
I'd be surprised if anyone is writing new unlimited policies. Non-inflation policies are also cheap but that's being penny wise and pound foolish in my opinion


There are two companies that are writing new unlimited policies in about 45 states.

pshonore
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by pshonore » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:25 pm

beardsworth wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:04 pm
As with most discussions of this subject, the term "self-insure" has made an appearance.

The concept of insurance involves pooling of risk, on the assumption that no one knows in advance which people in the pool will need to use the coverage (I paid premiums into the pool, and I made a claim when my house burned down) and which people will not (I paid premiums into the pool but my house didn't burn down).

Whether for home insurance, long-term care, or any other risk, a decision not to purchase a policy, and to just keep a bunch of money on the sidelines if the need arrives, is not "insuring." No risk is being pooled with anyone else. A more accurate term would simply be "fund my own" or "pay out-of-pocket."
Certainly true for individuals but large companies often self insure for their business insurance and liability, etc. They will employ a conventional insurance company to pay and administer claims but it comes out of their pocket. There are also retrospectively rated policies where more losses than expected will result in additional premium for the expired term and a rebate if losses go down. (Much more complicated that it sounds). Of course we're talking industrial companies with thousands of employees. We're also talking lines of insurance where bigger claims settle very slowly. The big commercial writers have been in the business long enough to know what works and what risks to insure.

westrichj312
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by westrichj312 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:54 pm

I would guess the percentage of people that ever purchase a LTC policy is less than 10% of the world. There is a reason for that they are not an investment and not worth it - plain & simple a suckers bet as there are many ways around the 5 year look back and transferring monies to children to name a few of many options.

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DWesterb2iz2
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by DWesterb2iz2 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:20 pm

If you join the Knights of Columbus, you can get ltc insurance from them. They are basically a huge highly rated insurance company and RC men's service org. They have strict underwriting, but have had good policies, and good rates. I'm not sure of the cost of new policies, though.

I've had mine for a while (got it ten years ago, at 44), and I pay about $1000/year, for $262/day (I can use $131 of that per day at home) with an unlimited time frame rider. 30 day waiting period. My wife's is a bit higher in cost. The cost and coverage goes up a little each year.

We got ltc back then because my wife does some pro bono guardianship legal work and saw lots of young people--accident victims, usually-- in nursing homes. I'm glad we got it when we did though.
Last edited by DWesterb2iz2 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

WoW2012
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:47 pm

westrichj312 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:54 pm
I would guess the percentage of people that ever purchase a LTC policy is less than 10% of the world. There is a reason for that they are not an investment and not worth it - plain & simple a suckers bet as there are many ways around the 5 year look back and transferring monies to children to name a few of many options.
If LTC insurance is a sucker's bet, why have the insurance companies incurred over $100 Billion in LTC insurance claims?

The tax consequences of transferring a retirement account to an irrevocable trust (or your children) are enormous. You'd lose about half the value through state and federal income taxes.
Last edited by WoW2012 on Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WoW2012
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:59 pm

westrichj312 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:54 pm
There is a reason for that they are not an investment and not worth it -
A close relative of mine bought a long-term care policy 10 years ago. Her policy is covering the full cost of her assisted living facility. She paid less than $30,000 in premium over that 10 year period and the policy has a monthly benefit of over $10,000 and a lifetime cap of about $400,000. If she didn't have the policy we probably would have had to sell one of her rental properties and pay the capital gains tax. California taxes capital gains as ordinary income. Between the federal capital gains and the CA state tax, she would have lost almost a third of the value.

She could have sold one of her rental properties and netted about $300,000 after paying the mortgage. But then she would have paid about $120,000 in capital gains tax. Her long-term care insurance policy, which cost her $30,000 in premium, saved about $120,000 in taxes.

The only suckers in this scenario are the state and federal tax collectors. They lose. We won (thanks to her LTC insurance policy).

FBN2014
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by FBN2014 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:00 am

westrichj312 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:54 pm
I would guess the percentage of people that ever purchase a LTC policy is less than 10% of the world. There is a reason for that they are not an investment and not worth it - plain & simple a suckers bet as there are many ways around the 5 year look back and transferring monies to children to name a few of many options.
[/quote

Attorneys are not going to help you do a fraudulent conveyance in order to defraud Medicaid. If you transfer the asset within 5 years of applying benefits then you are penalized for a certain amount of time based upon how much was transferred. Maybe you can predict when you'll need Medicaid and then you can do the transfer 5 years in advance. No one else has these psychic powers.😁
"October is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May March, June, December, August and February." - M. Twain

WoW2012
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:39 am

westrichj312 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:54 pm
I would guess the percentage of people that ever purchase a LTC policy is less than 10% of the world. There is a reason for that they are not an investment and not worth it - plain & simple a suckers bet as there are many ways around the 5 year look back and transferring monies to children to name a few of many options.

Nothing like transferring money to your daughter. Unfortunately she's married to the son-in-law you can't stand. Oops. He gets to keep half of it when they divorce.

Chris K Jones
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by Chris K Jones » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:53 am

I applied for a John Hancock policy last year and was turned down. I was 59 at the time and had recently had a minor knee injury that required physical therapy but no surgery. Otherwise health was and is good. I was very ambivalent about getting LTC policy because I don't trust insurance companies to pay when there is a claim. I am happily self insured. It just makes more sense for me.

carruthers209
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by carruthers209 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:55 am

We have spent the last several months visiting and evaluating facilities for a family member who was suffering from dementia. We learned that the nicer ones require at least two years of accessible financial resources before they will accept someone for placement. It turns out that if that person runs out of funds while they are in the facility, the facility then has to keep them and will put them on Medicaid (but not necessarily in that nice room). Without these funds, individuals who rely on Medicaid may end up in a substandard facility.

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Steelersfan
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by Steelersfan » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:55 am

carruthers209 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:55 am
We have spent the last several months visiting and evaluating facilities for a family member who was suffering from dementia. We learned that the nicer ones require at least two years of accessible financial resources before they will accept someone for placement. It turns out that if that person runs out of funds while they are in the facility, the facility then has to keep them and will put them on Medicaid (but not necessarily in that nice room). Without these funds, individuals who rely on Medicaid may end up in a substandard facility.
Did you ask if the person could get in if they had LTC insurance that would cover the cost for two years? Or did it have to be liquid financial assets?

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Shackleton
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by Shackleton » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:43 am

westrichj312 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:54 pm
I would guess the percentage of people that ever purchase a LTC policy is less than 10% of the world. There is a reason for that they are not an investment and not worth it - plain & simple a suckers bet as there are many ways around the 5 year look back and transferring monies to children to name a few of many options.
I would not want to rely on Medicaid since most top-rated LTC facilities will not let you come in on Medicaid, you must be able to cover the costs for a period of time first.

My mother is currently in a memory care assisted living facility, has been there for 4 years, and all costs are covered by her John Hancock LTC policy. She and my father (who passed aways about 3 years before she entered LTC) paid approx. $36k in premiums before I made the application for her claim. At that time, all premiums ended, and as of this month the policy still has benefits left to cover another 3 years of expenses. At that time, we will begin to use her personal assets which are sufficient to cover her care for the rest of her life.
“Superhuman effort isn't worth a damn unless it achieves results.” ~Ernest Shackleton

westrichj312
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by westrichj312 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:35 am

If it worked out great for you terrific. Unfortunately statistics will tell you most people will never get their money's worth out of a LTC policy. I prefer my children getting all of my money and not some LTC facility and there are multiple ways to get it free (medicaid) from your state if you plan properly.

FBN2014
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by FBN2014 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:46 am

westrichj312 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:35 am
If it worked out great for you terrific. Unfortunately statistics will tell you most people will never get their money's worth out of a LTC policy. I prefer my children getting all of my money and not some LTC facility and there are multiple ways to get it free (medicaid) from your state if you plan properly.
You keep making these statements. Please enlighten us with the strategies you are referring to.
"October is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May March, June, December, August and February." - M. Twain

westrichj312
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by westrichj312 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:58 am

Talk to an attorney that specializes in that area. There are trusts that protect assets from the look back, there are trusts for your children that exclude there married spouse so that in case they get divorced the spouse will not be entitled to any of your assets, there are divorce strategies to name just a few perfectly legal ways to protect your assets from the lookback. About 6 weeks ago Barron's had something about this in the back page or too talking about how wealthy people always know how to get free LTC by gaining the system. It was written by some lawyer, I have it saved and will look for it this afternoon to post.

FBN2014
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by FBN2014 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:11 am

westrichj312 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:58 am
Talk to an attorney that specializes in that area. There are trusts that protect assets from the look back, there are trusts for your children that exclude there married spouse so that in case they get divorced the spouse will not be entitled to any of your assets, there are divorce strategies to name just a few perfectly legal ways to protect your assets from the lookback. About 6 weeks ago Barron's had something about this in the back page or too talking about how wealthy people always know how to get free LTC by gaining the system. It was written by some lawyer, I have it saved and will look for it this afternoon to post.
I look forward to reading that article. The attorney that I discussed this with said that the only way to save all the assets is to put them in an irrevocable trust where the trustee is a third party (preferably a trusted child). The grantor would have no withdrawal rights and the transfer is subject to the 5 year look back.
"October is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May March, June, December, August and February." - M. Twain

WoW2012
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:44 am

Steelersfan wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:55 am
carruthers209 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:55 am
We have spent the last several months visiting and evaluating facilities for a family member who was suffering from dementia. We learned that the nicer ones require at least two years of accessible financial resources before they will accept someone for placement. It turns out that if that person runs out of funds while they are in the facility, the facility then has to keep them and will put them on Medicaid (but not necessarily in that nice room). Without these funds, individuals who rely on Medicaid may end up in a substandard facility.
Did you ask if the person could get in if they had LTC insurance that would cover the cost for two years? Or did it have to be liquid financial assets?


Recently we were investigating a nursing facility for a relative. We were told that there was a waiting list and the wait could be 6 to 12 months. It had taken us several months to convince our relative to move closer to us. Once she agreed to move we made all the plans, scheduled the movers, and put her house up for rent. We needed a facility for her right away. We couldn't wait 6 to 12 months for a place for her. We then told the nursing home administrator that our relative had long-term care insurance that had a $10,000 monthly benefit and a $400,000 lifetime cap. Once the administrator learned of the LTCi policy, she said that there was no waiting list for our relative. She could move in right away.

The best facilities don't take Medicaid. The good facilities that also take Medicaid have long waiting lists for those who rely solely on Medicaid.

The answer to your question is, "Yes". They will accept the long-term care insurance for payment as easily as they would social security or a pension.

WoW2012
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:47 am

Chris K Jones wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:53 am
I applied for a John Hancock policy last year and was turned down. I was 59 at the time and had recently had a minor knee injury that required physical therapy but no surgery. Otherwise health was and is good. I was very ambivalent about getting LTC policy because I don't trust insurance companies to pay when there is a claim. I am happily self insured. It just makes more sense for me.
When my relative needed to file a claim on her long-term care policy the home care agency she hired to care for her and her husband filed the claim for her. Home care agencies (especially the big national chains) file thousands of long-term care insurance claims every year. They are experts at getting LTCi claims approved quickly.

The owner of the local agency had my relative sign a couple of HIPAA forms and they took care of everything from there forward. The claim was approved in a few weeks. They sent the bills to the insurance company every month and it went very smoothly. It couldn't have been any easier.

WoW2012
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:50 am

westrichj312 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:35 am
If it worked out great for you terrific. Unfortunately statistics will tell you most people will never get their money's worth out of a LTC policy. I prefer my children getting all of my money and not some LTC facility and there are multiple ways to get it free (medicaid) from your state if you plan properly.
The last person who told me that didn't own medical insurance either because he'd read the statistics.

DrGoogle2017
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Re: Long term care insurance

Post by DrGoogle2017 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:54 am

I had LTC from John Hancock for $535k, 3 years max, but they kept raising premium on me so I cancelled it. I had it for six years. The more I read, the more I’m glad I cancelled it. People who can use it within 10 years are rare.

WoW2012
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: Long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:55 am

westrichj312 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:58 am
Talk to an attorney that specializes in that area. There are trusts that protect assets from the look back, there are trusts for your children that exclude there married spouse so that in case they get divorced the spouse will not be entitled to any of your assets, there are divorce strategies to name just a few perfectly legal ways to protect your assets from the lookback. About 6 weeks ago Barron's had something about this in the back page or too talking about how wealthy people always know how to get free LTC by gaining the system. It was written by some lawyer, I have it saved and will look for it this afternoon to post.
Trusts don't protect social security income.
Trusts don't protect pension income.
Trusts don't protect RMD's from retirement accounts.
All of that income will go to Medicaid, not your spouse.

The only way to "put a retirement account into a trust" is to withdraw all the assets from the retirement account, pay the federal and state income taxes, then put it in a trust. Do you really want to lose 40% to 50% of your retirement account values just so that you can "game" (not gain) the system and live in a cramped, "semi-private" nursing home bed?

WoW2012
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: Long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:58 am

DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:54 am
I had LTC from John Hancock for $535k, 3 years max, but they kept raising premium on me so I cancelled it. I had it for six years. The more I read, the more I’m glad I cancelled it. People who can use it within 10 years are rare.
Older policies have had a lot of rate increases.
Newer policies haven't had them due to new regulations.
I've had my policy for 9 years and I've not had any rate increases.

DrGoogle2017
Posts: 1322
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:31 pm

Re: Long term care insurance

Post by DrGoogle2017 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:59 am

WoW2012 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:58 am
DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:54 am
I had LTC from John Hancock for $535k, 3 years max, but they kept raising premium on me so I cancelled it. I had it for six years. The more I read, the more I’m glad I cancelled it. People who can use it within 10 years are rare.
Older policies have had a lot of rate increases.
Newer policies haven't had them due to new regulations.
I've had my policy for 9 years and I've not had any rate increases.
Not old, it was purchased in 2010. 3 rate increases already. I didn’t care when it was pretax money but after I retired it was after tax money.

WoW2012
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: Long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:04 pm

DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:59 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:58 am
DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:54 am
I had LTC from John Hancock for $535k, 3 years max, but they kept raising premium on me so I cancelled it. I had it for six years. The more I read, the more I’m glad I cancelled it. People who can use it within 10 years are rare.
Older policies have had a lot of rate increases.
Newer policies haven't had them due to new regulations.
I've had my policy for 9 years and I've not had any rate increases.
Not old, it was purchased in 2010. 3 rate increases already. I didn’t care when it was pretax money but after I retired it was after tax money.
9 states have not passed the new rules. Sounds like you live in one of those states.
How big were your increases?

DrGoogle2017
Posts: 1322
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:31 pm

Re: Long term care insurance

Post by DrGoogle2017 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:14 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:04 pm
DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:59 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:58 am
DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:54 am
I had LTC from John Hancock for $535k, 3 years max, but they kept raising premium on me so I cancelled it. I had it for six years. The more I read, the more I’m glad I cancelled it. People who can use it within 10 years are rare.
Older policies have had a lot of rate increases.
Newer policies haven't had them due to new regulations.
I've had my policy for 9 years and I've not had any rate increases.
Not old, it was purchased in 2010. 3 rate increases already. I didn’t care when it was pretax money but after I retired it was after tax money.
9 states have not passed the new rules. Sounds like you live in one of those states.
How big were your increases?
I’m in California. I started with $88 per month, then it went up to $90 something, then last year it went up to $150 something. I’m under 60, so it can’t be because of age related increase. If I don’t pay for the increase, my benefits would be reduced. In the end, I looked at both of my aunts in their early 90s, still have all faculties in tact, I decided maybe I have longevity gene in me, that’s when I drop it. Plus I certainly could pay $500k(self insure).
Last edited by DrGoogle2017 on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WoW2012
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: Long term care insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:42 pm

DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:14 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:04 pm
DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:59 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:58 am
DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:54 am
I had LTC from John Hancock for $535k, 3 years max, but they kept raising premium on me so I cancelled it. I had it for six years. The more I read, the more I’m glad I cancelled it. People who can use it within 10 years are rare.
Older policies have had a lot of rate increases.
Newer policies haven't had them due to new regulations.
I've had my policy for 9 years and I've not had any rate increases.
Not old, it was purchased in 2010. 3 rate increases already. I didn’t care when it was pretax money but after I retired it was after tax money.
9 states have not passed the new rules. Sounds like you live in one of those states.
How big were your increases?
I’m in California. I started with $88 per month, then it went up to $90 something, then last year it went up to $150 something. I’m under 60, so it can’t be because of age related increase. If I don’t pay for the increase, my benefits would be reduced. In the end, I looked at both of my aunts in their early 90s, still have all faculties in tact, I decided maybe I have longevity gene in me, that’s when I drop it. Plus I certainly could pay $500k(self insured).


Those weren't rate increases you had. Your premium went up because of the type of inflation protection you had in the policy. It's called a "Future Purchase Option" or a "Guaranteed Purchase Option". That type of inflation protect makes your premium go up every 2 or 3 years. It starts off cheap but then becomes increasingly expensive because the cost of the increases are based upon your attained age, not your issue age.

jimishooch
Posts: 202
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:28 pm

Re: Long term care insurance

Post by jimishooch » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:58 pm

westrichj312 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:35 am
If it worked out great for you terrific. Unfortunately statistics will tell you most people will never get their money's worth out of a LTC policy. I prefer my children getting all of my money and not some LTC facility and there are multiple ways to get it free (medicaid) from your state if you plan properly.
i have an asset based LTC policy with a death benefit. if the benefit dollars aren't used or if a balance left it goes to my beneficiaries upon my death. this policy is part of my estate.

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