U.S. stocks in freefall

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saltycaper
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by saltycaper » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:24 pm

Leif wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:18 pm

My neighbor, who has a PhD in Economics from Harvard, was on TV. When asked if another depression could happen he said yes it could. That put the fear of God in me. I need to credit this site with helping me get through this period.
What would you think of this site if we still hadn't recovered? (Honest question about outcome and strategy.)
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by birdsong » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:26 pm

I have a very dear friend who has lost in the hundred thousands in XIV. It's closing forever on I think February 23rd. It's in his IRA so can't write off the loss. I knew his broker was a high flying guy. I didn't want to be too nosy so I didn't ask what percent of his portfolio or actual number of $100,000s it was. At whatever shareholders are paid, he won't live long enough to reinvest the payoff and regain the loss. It's forever. Luckily he doesn't need the money to live on. His heirs just have a loss.

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by willthrill81 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:34 pm

birdsong wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:26 pm
I have a very dear friend who has lost in the hundred thousands in XIV. It's closing forever on I think February 23rd. It's in his IRA so can't write off the loss. I knew his broker was a high flying guy. I didn't want to be too nosy so I didn't ask what percent of his portfolio or actual number of $100,000s it was. At whatever shareholders are paid, he won't live long enough to reinvest the payoff and regain the loss. It's forever. Luckily he doesn't need the money to live on. His heirs just have a loss.
I heard a similar story on the Stacking Bejamins podcast yesterday. They talked about a guy who just knew that volatility was going to go down after the first couple of days of the market selloff, and he bought $200k worth of XIV and another $200k on margin. The following day, volatility spiked, and the $400k dropped to $36k, meaning that he went from being $200k in the black to $164k in the red. :oops:

Combining leverage with highly volatile instruments is playing with nitroglycerin.
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by MotoTrojan » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:50 pm

saltycaper wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:24 pm
Leif wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:18 pm

My neighbor, who has a PhD in Economics from Harvard, was on TV. When asked if another depression could happen he said yes it could. That put the fear of God in me. I need to credit this site with helping me get through this period.
What would you think of this site if we still hadn't recovered? (Honest question about outcome and strategy.)
Interesting perspective (Japan-like situation).

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by RRAAYY3 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:56 pm

Tomorrow’s inflation numbers are going to be very interesting

I’m expecting an extreme overreaction - one way or another

* Don’t sell !

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by oldcomputerguy » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:02 pm

RRAAYY3 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:56 pm
Tomorrow’s inflation numbers are going to be very interesting

:|
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by RRAAYY3 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:29 pm

Even more interesting : “bad news” and markets still rising back up

Me thinks people are slowly realizing the sell off was ridiculous and that all things that actually matter are still in quite good stape

I expect “volatility” but pretty last week was the bottom

I also fully acknowledge I know nothing.

MoonOrb
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by MoonOrb » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:39 pm

Sure looks like the right time to get back in the market after moving everything to cash a while ago!

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by RRAAYY3 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:41 pm

MoonOrb wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:39 pm
Sure looks like the right time to get back in the market after moving everything to cash a while ago!
I used the dip to dump a ton into Int’l and reach my AA ...

Here’s to the world realizing things are actually still really good ! (It sucked watching each DCA drop daily ... but oh well cheaper shares is how I see it)

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by RRAAYY3 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:41 pm

MoonOrb wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:39 pm
Sure looks like the right time to get back in the market after moving everything to cash a while ago!
I used the dip to dump a ton into Int’l and reach my AA ...

Here’s to the world realizing things are actually still really good ! (It sucked watching each DCA drop daily ... but oh well cheaper shares is how I see it)

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by FIREchief » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:07 pm

News flash!! As measured by VTI, total US market is now back in the black for 2018 (up 0.8% from Dec 29 close). So much for the bloodbath. 8-)
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by RRAAYY3 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:28 pm

FIREchief wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:07 pm
News flash!! As measured by VTI, total US market is now back in the black for 2018 (up 0.8% from Dec 29 close). So much for the bloodbath. 8-)
You know things are good when the fear mongering headlines shift to 2019 and/or pure hypotheticals

Cheers to those who held... shots for those that bought more!

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by livesoft » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:30 pm

And how about bond funds? What are they up YTD? :twisted:
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by RRAAYY3 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:34 pm

livesoft wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:30 pm
And how about bond funds? What are they up YTD? :twisted:
Not sure - pretty much down over the last 5 years

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by triceratop » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:36 pm

RRAAYY3 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:34 pm
livesoft wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:30 pm
And how about bond funds? What are they up YTD? :twisted:
Not sure - pretty much down over the last 5 years
That's a curious statement.

Image

inb4 someone talks about share price not total return: no, why would you look at price return on a bond fund?
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by technovelist » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:37 pm

birdsong wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:26 pm
I have a very dear friend who has lost in the hundred thousands in XIV. It's closing forever on I think February 23rd. It's in his IRA so can't write off the loss. I knew his broker was a high flying guy. I didn't want to be too nosy so I didn't ask what percent of his portfolio or actual number of $100,000s it was. At whatever shareholders are paid, he won't live long enough to reinvest the payoff and regain the loss. It's forever. Luckily he doesn't need the money to live on. His heirs just have a loss.
How anyone could "invest" in something as insane as that is beyond me.

Compared to that, Bitcoin looks perfectly reasonable.
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.

thangngo
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by thangngo » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:38 pm

I saw a headline on marketwatch: "panic-like buying"... LOL

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by bligh » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:38 pm

RRAAYY3 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:28 pm
Cheers to those who held... shots for those that bought more!
What about those of us who wanted to buy more, but hadn't kept any dry powder aside to do so. :)

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by RRAAYY3 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:40 pm

bligh wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:38 pm
RRAAYY3 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:28 pm
Cheers to those who held... shots for those that bought more!
What about those of us who wanted to buy more, but hadn't kept any dry powder aside to do so. :)
You get the tab ... 😬

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by livesoft » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:43 pm

bligh wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:38 pm
RRAAYY3 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:28 pm
Cheers to those who held... shots for those that bought more!
What about those of us who wanted to buy more, but hadn't kept any dry powder aside to do so. :)
If you sold your bond funds on the RBDs (2/5 and 2/8) to buy equities, then you would have avoided losses in your bond funds almost equal to your gains in your newly purchased equities for the DOUBLE WIN! That's called rebalancing. It is now time to rebalance again, but the other way.
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by DaftInvestor » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:51 pm

bligh wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:38 pm
RRAAYY3 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:28 pm
Cheers to those who held... shots for those that bought more!
What about those of us who wanted to buy more, but hadn't kept any dry powder aside to do so. :)
You are probably still ahead - for example: if you were holding dry powder for the last two years waiting for this correction you would be behind those that kept no dry powder and invested 2 years ago. (Time in market beats market timing)

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by fishandgolf » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:57 pm

Seeing this thread is active once again and some of the brighter stars are on....I have a quick question:

"The Feds have raised interest rates 3-4 times (?) during the past two years and plan to do so 3-4 times in 2018. Is it safe to assume they will do this in sync with inflation or are they doing this for other reasons"? I do know the US economy has very tight labor market, is it reasonable to assume inflation is going to go up as the market continues tightens?

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by walletless » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:57 pm

We will soon need a "U.S. Bonds in free fall" thread 🙄😢😭

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by robertmcd » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:05 pm

Very strange day with bond yields rising alongside equities. CPI print seemed to matter for about 5 minutes with futures down sharply then everything was great again throughout the day. I think reality is going to set in again tomorrow or Friday, especially if we have another rise in yields.

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bligh
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by bligh » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:06 pm

I may need narrower rebalancing bands. :D
Last edited by bligh on Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Doom&Gloom
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by Doom&Gloom » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:13 pm

bligh wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:38 pm
RRAAYY3 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:28 pm
Cheers to those who held... shots for those that bought more!
What about those of us who wanted to buy more, but hadn't kept any dry powder aside to do so. :)
Please refrain from disparaging us wet-powder guys!

:wink:

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Leif
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by Leif » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:35 pm

saltycaper wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:24 pm
What would you think of this site if we still hadn't recovered? (Honest question about outcome and strategy.)
The strategy is good (stay the course, rebalance), but not fool proof. Larry often talks about confusing outcome with strategy. I think some here (but not enough) are familiar with the Japanese experience. That is why I changed my IPS after retirement. Too many here think that markets will soon come back bigger and stronger then ever. I read that every day. People hoping for a big downturn.
Investors should diversify across many asset-classes so that whatever happens, we will not have all our investments in underperforming asset classes and thereby fail to meet our goals-Taylor Larimore

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by jrbdmb » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:55 pm

livesoft wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:43 pm
bligh wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:38 pm
RRAAYY3 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:28 pm
Cheers to those who held... shots for those that bought more!
What about those of us who wanted to buy more, but hadn't kept any dry powder aside to do so. :)
If you sold your bond funds on the RBDs (2/5 and 2/8) to buy equities, then you would have avoided losses in your bond funds almost equal to your gains in your newly purchased equities for the DOUBLE WIN! That's called rebalancing. It is now time to rebalance again, but the other way.
I didn't get close to my rebalancing bands during any of these interesting market gyrations. I guess that's a good thing. (?)

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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:53 pm

Apparently my bold move in VOO (five whole shares) has arrested the slide. Who knows if I will get a chance to brazenly TLH that for IVV?
This week's fortune cookie: "Your financial life will be secure and beneficial." So I got that going for me, which is nice.

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by drk » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:24 pm

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:53 pm
Apparently my bold move in VOO (five whole shares) has arrested the slide. Who knows if I will get a chance to brazenly TLH that for IVV?
Just keep buying more. Eventually you'll have a chance.

Edited to add: If you don't, bully for us.

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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:07 pm

drk wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:24 pm
Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:53 pm
Apparently my bold move in VOO (five whole shares) has arrested the slide. Who knows if I will get a chance to brazenly TLH that for IVV?
Just keep buying more. Eventually you'll have a chance.

Edited to add: If you don't, bully for us.
I really don't want any more large blend. Maybe VIOV tomorrow.
This week's fortune cookie: "Your financial life will be secure and beneficial." So I got that going for me, which is nice.

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by Kenkat » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:17 pm

RRAAYY3 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:34 pm
livesoft wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:30 pm
And how about bond funds? What are they up YTD? :twisted:
Not sure - pretty much down over the last 5 years
Total Bond Index is +1.79 annualized over the past five years which is not that bad.

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by staythecourse » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:07 pm

Leif wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:18 pm
lazydavid wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:37 am
My neighbor, who has a PhD in Economics from Harvard, was on TV. When asked if another depression could happen he said yes it could. That put the fear of God in me.
Just curious is there any data to support Phd predict future economic cycles? Or Harvard PhD predict future economic cycles? I think the answer is NO. So who cares what he thinks about the future economic cycle. Statistically, it is not going to be any more predictive then my neighbors dog.

I am always amazed at how much reverence people give folks in predicting stuff that NO ONE has been shown to predict in the past.

Good luck.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle

RRAAYY3
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by RRAAYY3 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:14 pm

Kenkat wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:17 pm
RRAAYY3 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:34 pm
livesoft wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:30 pm
And how about bond funds? What are they up YTD? :twisted:
Not sure - pretty much down over the last 5 years
Total Bond Index is +1.79 annualized over the past five years which is not that bad.
I’m having a hard time taking on the “risk” of bonds as a safe haven when they’ve barely done better than a high yield savings account

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Leif
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by Leif » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:42 pm

staythecourse wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:07 pm
Leif wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:18 pm
lazydavid wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:37 am
My neighbor, who has a PhD in Economics from Harvard, was on TV. When asked if another depression could happen he said yes it could. That put the fear of God in me.
Just curious is there any data to support Phd predict future economic cycles? Or Harvard PhD predict future economic cycles? I think the answer is NO. So who cares what he thinks about the future economic cycle. Statistically, it is not going to be any more predictive then my neighbors dog.

I am always amazed at how much reverence people give folks in predicting stuff that NO ONE has been shown to predict in the past.

Good luck.
The quotes above are wrong. What you show as lazydavid is from me. What you show as me (Leif) is you.

To answer your question, I don't believe he was predicating future economic cycles. He was asked a direct question, does he believe a depression is possible. He responded yes.

I was surprised with that answer since all the safeguards added since the great depression. However, do I have a PhD? No. Do I have a degree in Economics? No. Did I go to Harvard? No. I know this guy. He is very conservative. His answer shocked me.

In fact who is to say what would happen if:

- The car industry went belly up.
- There was no bailout of the banks.
- The Fed sat on their hands.

Consider that for a moment.
Last edited by Leif on Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Investors should diversify across many asset-classes so that whatever happens, we will not have all our investments in underperforming asset classes and thereby fail to meet our goals-Taylor Larimore

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by lostdog » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:46 pm

I watch CNBC while on the treadmill at the gym. It's all entertainment and fluff.
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staythecourse
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by staythecourse » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:58 pm

Leif wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:42 pm
staythecourse wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:07 pm
Leif wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:18 pm
lazydavid wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:37 am
My neighbor, who has a PhD in Economics from Harvard, was on TV. When asked if another depression could happen he said yes it could. That put the fear of God in me.
Just curious is there any data to support Phd predict future economic cycles? Or Harvard PhD predict future economic cycles? I think the answer is NO. So who cares what he thinks about the future economic cycle. Statistically, it is not going to be any more predictive then my neighbors dog.

I am always amazed at how much reverence people give folks in predicting stuff that NO ONE has been shown to predict in the past.

Good luck.
The quotes above are wrong. What you show as lazydavid is from me. What you show as me (Leif) is you.

To answer your question, I don't believe he was predicating future economic cycles. He was asked a direct question, does he believe a depression is possible. He responded yes.

I was surprised with that answer since all the safeguards added since the great depression. However, do I have a PhD? No. Do I have a degree in Economics? No. Did I go to Harvard? No. I know this guy. He is very conservative. His answer shocked me.
My apologies didn't realize I messed up the "quoting". Either way, why would you be shocked? My comments stand. If we know (enough data backs it up) that folks can't predict economic phases ex ante INCLUDING ECONOMISTS then why would you listen to ANYBODY about that exact type of prediction (not just him specific)?

I think I am hard wired different. I don't give credence to anything unless there is enough evidence that the call has merit.

Good luck.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by MoonOrb » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:55 pm

It seems to me it's reasonable to be rattled when someone you know personally and presumably trust and respect and believe has more insight into the economy than you do tells you that he thought it was possible that another Depression could happen. It would have been an especially reasonable thing to be scared of in 2008-09.

Emotions are a Thing when it comes to investing. Not all of us are emotionless robots that are unmoved by fear or greed or other things.

So, maybe for some of us it's easy to take a step back, even against the backdrop of a market that's plunged by about half with no end seemingly in sight and ask ourselves questions like, "Why should this guy really know what he's talking about?" But for many people it's not easy to do that.

Our emotions are what they are--it's difficult to get an understandable answer from another person--who is completely different than you and has different hopes and fears and schemas--when you are essentially saying, "I don't think I would feel that way, so why should you?"

We can probably just accept that when people say they were scared, they were scared.

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by ruralavalon » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:59 am

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:53 pm
Apparently my bold move in VOO (five whole shares) has arrested the slide. Who knows if I will get a chance to brazenly TLH that for IVV?
Earl saves us all :D .

Thank you for arresting the market collapse, and turning everything around.
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by ruralavalon » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:11 pm

RRAAYY3 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:34 pm
livesoft wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:30 pm
And how about bond funds? What are they up YTD? :twisted:
Not sure - pretty much down over the last 5 years
We use Vanguard Intermediate-term Bond Index Fund Admiral Shares (VBILX), total return over the last 5 years has been up 1.81% annualized.
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Gufomel
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by Gufomel » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:02 pm

Market closed at around early Jan level. This crash has been just brutal.

:wink:

thangngo
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by thangngo » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:00 pm

Gufomel wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:02 pm
Market closed at around early Jan level. This crash minor, tiny, small blip has been just brutal entertaining.

:wink:
Anyhow, I bought quite a bit during this blip. Also TLH for some bucks too. Quite fun.

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walletless
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by walletless » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:16 pm

thangngo wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:00 pm
Gufomel wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:02 pm
Market closed at around early Jan level. This crash minor, tiny, small blip has been just brutal entertaining.

:wink:
Anyhow, I bought quite a bit during this blip. Also TLH for some bucks too. Quite fun.
The dry-powder folks enjoyed the correction, for sure!

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by VictoriaF » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:19 pm

Gufomel wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:02 pm
Market closed at around early Jan level. This crash has been just brutal.
It's not over until it's over, and it's never over.

Victoria
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by livesoft » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:30 pm

walletless wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:16 pm
The dry-powder folks enjoyed the correction, for sure!
Are bond funds dry powder?
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by walletless » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:40 pm

livesoft wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:30 pm
walletless wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:16 pm
The dry-powder folks enjoyed the correction, for sure!
Are bond funds dry powder?
I didn't say *only* dry powder folks are enjoying 😂
Last edited by walletless on Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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randomizer
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by randomizer » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:44 pm

walletless wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:57 pm
We will soon need a "U.S. Bonds in free fall" thread 🙄😢😭
"U.S. Bonds sloping gently downwards!"
75:25 AA / Expected retirement: 2097

ImUrHuckleberry
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by ImUrHuckleberry » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:54 pm

livesoft wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:30 pm
walletless wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:16 pm
The dry-powder folks enjoyed the correction, for sure!
Are bond funds dry powder?
Worked for me!

Greg in Idaho
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by Greg in Idaho » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:07 am

I think correction followed by the rebound is providing a decent opportunity for folks who just got a gut check and thought "I really wish I had rebalanced and not let things ride for so long" to act on that wish...

And the correction is providing a partial answer for those who regularly ask here, "how does one determine one's risk tolerance?" We didn't go into the abyss at all, just a VERY small hint at what that might be like. A good learning opportunity.

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Taylor Larimore
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by Taylor Larimore » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:48 am

Greg in Idaho wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:07 am
I think correction followed by the rebound is providing a decent opportunity for folks who just got a gut check and thought "I really wish I had rebalanced and not let things ride for so long" to act on that wish...

And the correction is providing a partial answer for those who regularly ask here, "how does one determine one's risk tolerance?" We didn't go into the abyss at all, just a VERY small hint at what that might be like. A good learning opportunity.
Greg in Idaho:

I agree!

Best wishes.
Taylor
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle

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