Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

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Ditchwitch
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Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by Ditchwitch » Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:59 pm

Friends and family seem to be talking about Bitcoin a lot these days....so I started reading up a bit here and there. It appears prices are driven more by emotions than based in any real future value. On the other hand blockchain technology seems to be here to stay so I wouldn't mind taking a stake through a mutual fund or an ETF. Besides the various crypto investors here are there others investing in different blockchain companies or funds? I am curious about other folks thoughts here on the board. :D
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Geologist
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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by Geologist » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:12 pm

You mean invest in the iced tea company that now claims it is a blockchain company? Any mutual fund or ETF that would specialize in this now would be just like the fad that your friends and family represent.

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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by LFKB » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:14 pm

Blockchain will revolutionize many industries, but I haven’t figured out the best way to invest in it. It’s like saying you want to invest in the internet, but the issue is numerous internet companies still went bust. If there’s a good diversified way to do it, I’d invest. But I’m certainly not jumping in on these cryptos that seem purely speculative with no underlying value.

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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by LFKB » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:19 pm

You could always invest in the Crypto Co (ticker CRCW). It has an 11 billion market cap and about $500k of quarterly revenue. You’ll have to wait until January 3rd though because the SEC halted it for trading.

Personally, I’m trying to find a way to short it.

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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by ulrichw » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:20 am

LFKB wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:14 pm
Blockchain will revolutionize many industries [...]
Curious about what industries you think will be revolutionized by blockchain...

Blockchain is a technology that lets you create an incontrovertible (practically speaking) public record of transactions/contracts. This is especially useful in situations where counterparties don't necessarily trust each other.

While it does seem that a number of industries could benefit from technology which provides these features, I see this more as a process optimization than a revolutionary technology. Current processes do reasonably well already - the additional level of trust blockchain provides will be helpful, but is not enabling anything that doesn't exist already.

To me the hype outweighs the reality, both for the underlying technology and the currencies built on top of it.

(Don't get me wrong - I think the technology is great, and the currencies will have some lasting value - I just think their current value and descriptions of their potential are overblown)

My credentials - software engineering for 25+ years, worked in cryptography-related technologies (security software) for about 10 years.

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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by LFKB » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:29 am

ulrichw wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:20 am
LFKB wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:14 pm
Blockchain will revolutionize many industries [...]
Curious about what industries you think will be revolutionized by blockchain...

Blockchain is a technology that lets you create an incontrovertible (practically speaking) public record of transactions/contracts. This is especially useful in situations where counterparties don't necessarily trust each other.

While it does seem that a number of industries could benefit from technology which provides these features, I see this more as a process optimization than a revolutionary technology. Current processes do reasonably well already - the additional level of trust blockchain provides will be helpful, but is not enabling anything that doesn't exist already.

To me the hype outweighs the reality, both for the underlying technology and the currencies built on top of it.

(Don't get me wrong - I think the technology is great, and the currencies will have some lasting value - I just think their current value and descriptions of their potential are overblown)

My credentials - software engineering for 25+ years, worked in cryptography-related technologies (security software) for about 10 years.
Any industry in which there is cost, time and effort involved in verifying transactions. Finance and energy are probably the two most logical.

I agree that the currencies are overblown, but Blockchain can make processes more efficient across a number of industries and should have staying power.

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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by ulrichw » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:43 am

LFKB wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:29 am
ulrichw wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:20 am
LFKB wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:14 pm
Blockchain will revolutionize many industries [...]
Curious about what industries you think will be revolutionized by blockchain...

[...]
Any industry in which there is cost, time and effort involved in verifying transactions. Finance and energy are probably the two most logical.

I agree that the currencies are overblown, but Blockchain can make processes more efficient across a number of industries and should have staying power.
Hmm - doesn't sound like revolutionary technology to me (you may know more than I do about the costs of transaction tracking in these industries).

I definitely think blockchain has staying power and applications in industries like you propose, but don't see it as revolutionizing anything in those industries - it just creates a more efficient way to run a portion of those businesses. This is technology similar to voice over IP or faxes - great at optimizing certain processes, but not really a game changer (in my opinion, of course)

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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by Lauretta » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:58 am

I am also becoming interested in this question. I think there are very promising firms such as this, that make use of blockchain
http://www.digitalasset.com/
though I don't know whether it's possible to invest in this particular one for individuals (I don't think so as when you go to the investors section they just name the big banks and and firms that have invested in them).
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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:30 am

Lauretta wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:58 am
I am also becoming interested in this question. I think there are very promising firms such as this, that make use of blockchain
http://www.digitalasset.com/
though I don't know whether it's possible to invest in this particular one for individuals (I don't think so as when you go to the investors section they just name the big banks and and firms that have invested in them).
Blythe Masters is CEO. Her team at JP Morgan invented the Credit Default Swaps CDS .


Privately funded one could invest in some of the backing institutions. Give limited exposure.

Securities settlement (payment) is an area of fast duplication of effort and cost. So this application could be a good one.

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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by technovelist » Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:34 am

Valuethinker wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:30 am
Lauretta wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:58 am
I am also becoming interested in this question. I think there are very promising firms such as this, that make use of blockchain
http://www.digitalasset.com/
though I don't know whether it's possible to invest in this particular one for individuals (I don't think so as when you go to the investors section they just name the big banks and and firms that have invested in them).
Blythe Masters is CEO. Her team at JP Morgan invented the Credit Default Swaps CDS .
Ok, I'm convinced now. Clearly there is no danger in investing in something invented by someone with her knowledge and experience! :mrgreen:
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.

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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by Lauretta » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:19 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:30 am


Blythe Masters is CEO. Her team at JP Morgan invented the Credit Default Swaps CDS .


Privately funded one could invest in some of the backing institutions. Give limited exposure.

Securities settlement (payment) is an area of fast duplication of effort and cost. So this application could be a good one.
Yes I found this interesting:
https://www.coindesk.com/blythe-masters ... t-setting/
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susze
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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by susze » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:41 pm

ulrichw wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:20 am
LFKB wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:14 pm
Blockchain will revolutionize many industries [...]
Curious about what industries you think will be revolutionized by blockchain...

Blockchain is a technology that lets you create an incontrovertible (practically speaking) public record of transactions/contracts. This is especially useful in situations where counterparties don't necessarily trust each other.

While it does seem that a number of industries could benefit from technology which provides these features, I see this more as a process optimization than a revolutionary technology. Current processes do reasonably well already - the additional level of trust blockchain provides will be helpful, but is not enabling anything that doesn't exist already.

To me the hype outweighs the reality, both for the underlying technology and the currencies built on top of it.

(Don't get me wrong - I think the technology is great, and the currencies will have some lasting value - I just think their current value and descriptions of their potential are overblown)

My credentials - software engineering for 25+ years, worked in cryptography-related technologies (security software) for about 10 years.
Seems like all the different cryptos use different techniques or technology. And currently there is no moat for any crypto to dominate whose to say some other alt coin comes out that is even better tomorrow.

Based on your credentials what are your thoughts on quantum computing and this. Wouldnt this make all cryptos basically worthless once quantum computing comes as they could possibly implement something even better or a much improved blockchain? Thanks and Happy Holidays
Last edited by susze on Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

WolfgangPauli
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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by WolfgangPauli » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:50 pm

I cannot speak for all industries but Blockchain will revolutionize transportation and logistics of goods. Walmart is now clearing customs using blockchain and your food supply is being tracked from origin to table using blockchain.

If i were to invest in this, I would just buy IBM. They are "all in" and leading this effort (for legitimate uses). Everyone is working with IBM as it appears they have a huge headstart on this.
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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by technovelist » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:54 pm

susze wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:41 pm
ulrichw wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:20 am
LFKB wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:14 pm
Blockchain will revolutionize many industries [...]
Curious about what industries you think will be revolutionized by blockchain...

Blockchain is a technology that lets you create an incontrovertible (practically speaking) public record of transactions/contracts. This is especially useful in situations where counterparties don't necessarily trust each other.

While it does seem that a number of industries could benefit from technology which provides these features, I see this more as a process optimization than a revolutionary technology. Current processes do reasonably well already - the additional level of trust blockchain provides will be helpful, but is not enabling anything that doesn't exist already.

To me the hype outweighs the reality, both for the underlying technology and the currencies built on top of it.

(Don't get me wrong - I think the technology is great, and the currencies will have some lasting value - I just think their current value and descriptions of their potential are overblown)

My credentials - software engineering for 25+ years, worked in cryptography-related technologies (security software) for about 10 years.
Seems like all the different cryptos use different techniques or technology. And currently there is no moat for any crypto to dominate whose to say some other alt coin comes out that is even better tomorrow.

Based on your credentials what are your thoughts on quantum computing and this. Wouldnt this make all cryptos basically worthless once quantum computing comes as they could possibly implement something even better or a much improve blockchain?
I believe there are some cryptos that use algorithms that are supposed to be resistant to quantum computing methods.
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.

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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by nisiprius » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:05 pm

In any exciting new technology, the future of the technology itself is a distant third to two other considerations:

1) Which are the specific companies that are actually going to make a business success out of that technology? And which will be the Webvans, Yankee Networks, and Osborne Computers?

2) How much due diligence should you do to be sure that a specific company isn't 99% talk and 1% technology... or a plain and simple fraud?

FINRA alert: Don't Fall for Cryptocurrency-Related Stock Scams
...be cautious when considering the purchase of shares of companies that tout the potential of high returns associated with cryptocurrency-related activities without the business fundamentals and transparent financial reporting to back up such claims....

The SEC suspended trading in a number of securities due to questions regarding the accuracy of cryptocurrency-related activities. For example, trading was suspended when the SEC questioned the accuracy of claims regarding:
  • the liquidity and value of a company’s assets in DIBCOINS, a cryptocurrency;
  • assertions by several companies that each planned to conduct an Initial Coin Offering (ICO); and
  • a company’s claimed transition from a vape products business to one involved in cryptocurrency and adoption of blockchain technology.
....

>>Use FINRA BrokerCheck® to the check registration status of, and additional information about, the people and firms who tout these opportunities.

>>Check the SEC's EDGAR database to find out whether the company files with the SEC. If so, read the reports and verify any information you have heard about the company. But remember, the fact that a company that has registered its securities or filed reports with the SEC doesn't mean that the company will be a good investment....

>>Most stock pump-and-dump schemes tend to be quoted on an over-the-counter (OTC) quotation platform like the OTC Markets, which provides icons to warn investors of concerns associated with a given company. These include a stop sign to indicate the company cannot or will not provide important information to regulators, exchanges or the OTC Markets—and also a skull and crossbones to warn that the security, company or a person who controls the company might be involved in a spam campaign, questionable marketing, regulatory action or more.
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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by Ditchwitch » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:59 pm

Seems some liken Bitcoin to a Ponzi scheme while others see potential to replace entire currencies... there's also several other currencies based on blockchain and other service companies promising future platform services based on blockchain technology, e.g. Ripple, Ethereum. It's hard to see through the entire maze...yet there should be some future potential for some fallout after the dust settles...when??? The bigger problem with Bitcoin is that it's not being used as much as it's being hyped - so everyone who buys mostly is an investor and apparently has some interest in hyping it's "use" while actual use has been lagging when it's already been in circulation since 2009 or so. With Dotcoms like Netscape, Altavista & Google everyone could see how there was a lot of benefit and actually also used the free services while only Google crafted a great business strategy to increase shareholders value. So something could be done that couldn't be done before. It's harder to see that with blockchain based currencies. Like the software engineer above mentioned the added value (cutting out the middlemen and anonymous peer to peer payment) could be incremental for most while those deriving much benefit (peers who would like to operate in the dark) may be transactionally marginal . Governments will clamp down on use if it's used to transact illicit business. Any currency's use has to be for legitimate business to gain broader large scale acceptance.

So for the most part I doubt Bitcoin will go all mainstream for use which really is the only way to justify the sky high prices in the long term. On the other hand I think blockchain technology is here to stay and already has been adopted by companies like IBM, and investment banks exploring it's use. I guess the question then maybe which are the more promising applications and companies entering those areas, ie. new entrants, disruptors etc..since buying IBM may be a very good investment but is unlikely to help double or quadruple your investment.
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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by Lauretta » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:30 pm

Ditchwitch wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:59 pm
Friends and family seem to be talking about Bitcoin a lot these days....so I started reading up a bit here and there. It appears prices are driven more by emotions than based in any real future value. On the other hand blockchain technology seems to be here to stay so I wouldn't mind taking a stake through a mutual fund or an ETF. Besides the various crypto investors here are there others investing in different blockchain companies or funds? I am curious about other folks thoughts here on the board. :D
Today Atari gained over 17% as they announced the development of a platform for Casinos using blockchain. I don't (and wouldn't) own individual blockchain companies but I've seen that Atari is a line in a small cap fund I own 8-)
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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by youngpleb » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:40 pm

I hold some cryptocurrencies based on the promise of blockchain technology, but I tend to limit my modest speculations to those which are attached to the Internet of Things. I think that as the IoT begins to take off in the coming decades, that a lot of these could do well (such as Waltonchain). Other than that though, I stay away from crypto. I'm sure there are a ton of good companies, but it seems like too much effort to dig through all the trash ones to find the gems which may or may not take off.

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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by regularguy455 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:11 pm

Sit tight. This technology is young and will be adopted by big business in time. Big companies have the funding and scale to make wide spread adoption happen. IMHO, adoption, not technological innovation, is the name of the game. Cryptocurrencies filled a void, but there are many industries where this would enhance existing services.

Consider healthcare. Lots of fragmentation that could be significantly streamlined by Blockchain. No tiddlywink startup is going to make a revolutionary change. There are too many entrenched players. But one startup could create a technology, get acquired by a big corporation, and have it pushed out if the use case was right. Holding index funds will allow you to benefit from this.

The good news is this will directly benefit all of us. We will likely have much more control of our information and how it is used.

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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by Dominic » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:39 pm

regularguy455 wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:11 pm
Sit tight. This technology is young and will be adopted by big business in time. Big companies have the funding and scale to make wide spread adoption happen. IMHO, adoption, not technological innovation, is the name of the game. Cryptocurrencies filled a void, but there are many industries where this would enhance existing services.

Consider healthcare. Lots of fragmentation that could be significantly streamlined by Blockchain. No tiddlywink startup is going to make a revolutionary change. There are too many entrenched players. But one startup could create a technology, get acquired by a big corporation, and have it pushed out if the use case was right. Holding index funds will allow you to benefit from this.

The good news is this will directly benefit all of us. We will likely have much more control of our information and how it is used.
This.

The reality is, blockchain is a fancy data structure. It has some interesting applications, and it'll make a big impact, but the impact comes into play when the big companies start working with it. They'll put a new spin on the idea, patent it, and make loads of money. If any startups go anywhere, they'll be snatched up by bigger companies. This is essentially what's happening in machine learning. It's a relatively new field, but it's essentially being carried by Google, Apple, and friends, as well as companies they already own (e.g. DeepMind).

And until those little companies are bought, they're going to be private companies. No company that's listed on the market right now is going to revolutionize this industry.

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Re: Blockchain Technology Companies and Funds/ETFs/Futures

Post by Tanelorn » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:00 am

LFKB wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:19 pm
You could always invest in the Crypto Co (ticker CRCW). It has an 11 billion market cap and about $500k of quarterly revenue. You’ll have to wait until January 3rd though because the SEC halted it for trading.

Personally, I’m trying to find a way to short it.
You've got the right intuition, but I'll save you some time and tell you to give up now. It's resuming after the SEC suspension on the gray market and you'll be lucky to find a broker who will let you buy it at all, let alone short it.

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