The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

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KATNYC
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The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by KATNYC » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:10 am

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/22/investo ... trade.html

The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Traders on the TD Ameritrade platform are now able to buy and sell shares of ETFs like the SPDR S&P 500 (SPY) at any time of day.
"What we're doing is creating a seamless session," TD Ameritrade's Steven Quirk tells CNBC.
This might also be another way to get more people trading, according to one analyst.

The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day

TD Ameritrade extended trading hours on its platform starting Monday to 24 hours, five days a week for several popular exchange-traded funds. The e-broker also told CNBC that trading individual stocks around the clock may not be too far away.

Traders on the TD Ameritrade platform are now able to buy and sell shares of ETFs like the SPDR S&P 500 (SPY), iShares MSCI Emerging Markets ETF (EEM) and the SPDR Gold Trust (GLD) at any time of the day. Trades made between 8 p.m. ET and 4 a.m. ET are placed as limit orders and are executed through electronic communication networks.

DIA SPDR Dow Jones Industrial Average ETF Trust 3,745,800
EEM iShares MSCI Emerging Markets ETF 52,169,096
FXI iShares China Large-Cap ETF 12,473,703
GLD SPDR Gold Trust 7,528,532
IWM iShares Russell 2000 ETF 22,001,500
QQQ PowerShares QQQ Trust 28,915,661
SH ProShares Short S&P500 2,382,806
SLV iShares Silver Trust 7,989,362
SPY SPDR S&P 500 ETF Trust 81,851,495
TLT iShares 20+ Year Treasury Bond ETF 9,140,309
UNG United States Natural Gas Fund LP 5,701,799
USO United States Oil Fund LP 13,955,540


The move lets the Average Joe buy and sell these ETFs when market-moving news hits overnight rather than waiting until the stock market opens to react to the news. TD Ameritrade's platform is used largely by retail investors.

"What we're doing is creating a seamless session," Steven Quirk, executive vice president of TD Ameritrade's trader group, told CNBC. "We know there's a lot of news that happens overnight when the market isn't open."

To be sure, online trading platforms — including TD Ameritrade — let clients trade in the premarket session (4 a.m. ET to 9:30 a.m. ET) and after-hours (4 p.m. ET to 8 p.m. ET). But TD Ameritrade's change lets people trade during the eight-hour window between the close of the after-hours session and the start of premarket trading. Quirk said traders on the platform want the same flexibility in trading that they have in online shopping.

He said that TD Ameritrade would enable 24-hour trading for popular individual stocks, like Apple and Amazon, once liquidity for the SPY and other ETFs during the new session became large enough.

At the same time, this might be another way to get more people trading, said Richard Repetto, an analyst at Sandler O'Neill & Partners. "They're looking to do more trades whichever way they can, whether in stocks or other products," he said.

However, TD Ameritrade CEO Tim Hockey said in October the company averaged a record of 511, 000 trades per day during fiscal 2017, which ended Sept. 30.

The move also comes in the middle of a boom in cryptocurrency trading among retail investors. Cryptocurrencies like bitcoin — which have surged in value and popularity over the past year — trade seamlessly for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week throughout the world, possibly showing that this constant trading will appeal to people.

"For the more generic products that are more liquid like futures and bitcoin, 24-hour trading works" because there is strong global demand for those products, said Larry Tabb, founder of The Tabb Group.

He also noted, however, that trading individual stocks outside of the regular session is riskier than trading during normal market hours.

"The problem with trading equities around the clock is there's not that much demand to keep a natural supply-demand balance," Tabb said. "Small amounts of supply and demand can really move prices, so you have to be careful."

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by livesoft » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:20 am

I don't own any of these ETFs and do not anticipate owning any of the ETFs. If TDAm makes money from doing this, then I have no beef with it.
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by triceratop » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:03 pm

As a contrarian I take this as excellent news. There are many reasons: one is that it gives the ETF haters more to focus on, and talk about the evils of trading (all true), while ignoring the legitimate uses of ETFs for buy-and-hold. That is, many critique products when they should critique human behavior. In addition to this, extra volume can only help my already-miniscule transaction costs and if brokers have a profitable business there will more money in brokerage transfer bonuses.

Go TDAM!
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by ColoradoRick » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:31 pm

I remember going to the gym in the late 90's and early 00's and seeing almost daily 2 to 3 people on exercise bikes reading about how they could support themselves day trading. After 2002 I didn't see that anymore.

Paraphrasing Warren Buffet: " The stock market is a mechanism for transferring money from the active to the patient." I don't know anyone who's made money day trading and I don't know anyone who knows anyone who has. I'm sure due to odds that there are some professional traders who survive that way, but there are not many. I see the option brothers on CNBC and think 2 things: a) if you are making so much money trading options, where do you find the time to do the show? b) same thing for writing the book. It reminds me of Levi Strauss who went out to California for the gold rush and quickly figured out the way to riches was selling supplies to miners who dreamt of becoming millionaires.

I appreciate the profit motive of TD Ameritrade, but they are doing investors no favors with this. I know someone will do it, even if they chose not to.

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by KATNYC » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:32 pm

triceratop wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:03 pm
As a contrarian I take this as excellent news. There are many reasons: one is that it gives the ETF haters more to focus on, and talk about the evils of trading (all true), while ignoring the legitimate uses of ETFs for buy-and-hold. That is, many critique products when they should critique human behavior. In addition to this, extra volume can only help my already-miniscule transaction costs and if brokers have a profitable business there will more money in brokerage transfer bonuses.

Go TDAM!
I had a similar thought. We are buy & hold but for those who want to day trade, more power to them & hopefully the added trading volume will help the buy & hold crowd.

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by aristotelian » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:49 pm

ColoradoRick wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:31 pm
I remember going to the gym in the late 90's and early 00's and seeing almost daily 2 to 3 people on exercise bikes reading about how they could support themselves day trading. After 2002 I didn't see that anymore.
What if I just want to execute a trade at 3:00 am? It seems like I should be able to do that in this day and age rather than having to wait until 9:30. I am surprised it hasn't happened sooner.

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by itstoomuch » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:55 pm

I find that there is some correlation of China/Taiwan/HK/Japan Mkts to next day USA market.
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Day Trading vs. Stay-The-Course

Post by Taylor Larimore » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:06 pm

Bogleheads:

Day trading is for losers. Stay-the-course (assuming it is the right course) is for winners. Here is good evidence:
"Odean and Barber tested over 66,400 investors between 1991 and 1997. Their findings: "The most active traders earned 7% less annually than buy-and-hold investors."
https://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/odean ... s_2009.pdf

Best wishes.
Taylor
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Re: Day Trading vs. Stay-The-Course

Post by triceratop » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:10 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:06 pm
Bogleheads:

Day trading is for losers. Stay-the-course (assuming it is the right course) is for winners. Here is good evidence:
"Odean and Barber tested over 66,400 investors between 1991 and 1997. Their findings: "The most active traders earned 7% less annually than buy-and-hold investors."
https://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/odean ... s_2009.pdf

Best wishes.
Taylor
Taylor, there must be some misunderstanding. This will allow one to trade at night. If day trading is for losers, then what does that make night traders? 8-)
"To play the stock market is to play musical chairs under the chord progression of a bid-ask spread."

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by whodidntante » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:16 pm

I think I will be alive to see the 24 hour stock market. We are already close to that with futures markets. Trading hours will someday be thought of as an anachronism. This will annoy stodgy, inflexible people. It may also have other advantages.

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by Taylor Larimore » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:23 pm

triceratop wrote:Taylor, there must be some misunderstanding. This will allow one to trade at night. If day trading is for losers, then what does that make night traders?
Double losers.

Best wishes.
Taylor
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by oldzey » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:29 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:23 pm
triceratop wrote:Taylor, there must be some misunderstanding. This will allow one to trade at night. If day trading is for losers, then what does that make night traders?
Double losers.

Best wishes.
Taylor
+1 Great answer. :D
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by alex_686 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:36 pm

aristotelian wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:49 pm
What if I just want to execute a trade at 3:00 am? It seems like I should be able to do that in this day and age rather than having to wait until 9:30. I am surprised it hasn't happened sooner.
Because it about the market. The market is where people get together to exchange shares for cash. I just don't see many people showing up at 3 a.m. to trade. Low liquidity, low price signaling, etc. I suspect wide spreads where the average retail investor is going to get scalped by professional traders. Maybe the gold and silver ETFs will do fine because there is a world market that does trade 24 hours a day in these commodities. I doubt the rest. Maybe the China and 20 year T will do o.k. for the above reasons as well - but it is thinner here.

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:40 pm

When I'm on the TDA site as the market closes with my watch list up, I do see that as the close occurs, the spread from bid to ask goes from insignificant to gigantic. I suppose with night trading, this won't be quite as dramatic but I'd think that it will still occur.
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by Pajamas » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:43 pm

After hours trading can be fun to watch and especially to compare to market movement the next day, but no thanks as far as participating unless it develops robust volume and continuity with regular trading hours. A round-the-clock market in a global economy makes sense in theory, but in practice is a bit of a headache for participants and probably provides no real value in the long term.

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by Big Dog » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:59 pm

any extra tax impact? In other words, will TD be clearing the stock trade thru Hong Kong, or London? Will it matter to a US night trader? (just asking.)

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by Svensk Anga » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:05 pm

Looks like Livesoft will now need to be on watch for the odd "RBN" (really bad night). :D

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by aristotelian » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:08 pm

alex_686 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:36 pm

Because it about the market. The market is where people get together to exchange shares for cash. I just don't see many people showing up at 3 a.m. to trade. Low liquidity, low price signaling, etc. I suspect wide spreads where the average retail investor is going to get scalped by professional traders. Maybe the gold and silver ETFs will do fine because there is a world market that does trade 24 hours a day in these commodities. I doubt the rest. Maybe the China and 20 year T will do o.k. for the above reasons as well - but it is thinner here.
You realize that the reason a lot of people don't trade after hours is because the market is closed at that time?

I predict within a couple of weeks you will see normal bid/ask spreads on TD's platform for the big stocks and ETF's.

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Re: Day Trading vs. Stay-The-Course

Post by Fallible » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:23 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:06 pm
Bogleheads:

Day trading is for losers. Stay-the-course (assuming it is the right course) is for winners. Here is good evidence:
"Odean and Barber tested over 66,400 investors between 1991 and 1997. Their findings: "The most active traders earned 7% less annually than buy-and-hold investors."
https://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/odean ... s_2009.pdf

Best wishes.
Taylor
Thanks for the reminder of this study, Taylor, and here's a bit more of it that calls attention to the real concern about frequent trading: the individual investor, i.e., the non-professional up against the pros:
Financial advisers recommend that individual investors refrain from frequent trading. Investors should buy and hold diversified portfolios, such as low-cost mutual funds. If skill contributes to investment returns, individual investors are obviously at a disadvantage when trading against professionals. What is less clear is just how much do individual investors lose by trading? In this paper, we document that trading in financial markets leads to economically large losses for individual investors and virtually all of the losses of individual investors
Bogleheads® wiki | Investing Advice Inspired by Jack Bogle

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by staythecourse » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:27 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:23 pm
triceratop wrote:Taylor, there must be some misunderstanding. This will allow one to trade at night. If day trading is for losers, then what does that make night traders?
Double losers.

Best wishes.
Taylor
That was funny. :D

Good luck.
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by sunnywindy » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:41 pm

ColoradoRick wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:31 pm
I remember going to the gym in the late 90's and early 00's and seeing almost daily 2 to 3 people on exercise bikes reading about how they could support themselves day trading. After 2002 I didn't see that anymore.
Your Colorado name reminded me of when Vail Ski Area had kiosks on the ski hill for trading stock while you were still clipped into your skis! (I think this was the late '90s.) An absurd idea, but I can see how some people (or should we call them 'clients') would gravitate to that. Most, however, I think were horrified that the pressures of the real world were encroaching on their vacation and the trading kiosks did not last long.
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by midareff » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:03 pm

and why would I want to do that?

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by saltycaper » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

midareff wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:03 pm
and why would I want to do that?
Contrary to some of the shoot-from-the-hip, Boglehead-bot auto-responses you see regarding day-traders, the ability to place an ETF order 24 hours a day would be helpful to those stay-the-course investors who simply are not able to place an order between the hours of 9:30am and 4:00pm. Hopefully in time there will be no "market hours" and liquidity and spreads will improve during what are currently off-peak times.
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by midareff » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:17 pm

saltycaper wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:03 pm
and why would I want to do that?
Contrary to some of the shoot-from-the-hip, Boglehead-bot auto-responses you see regarding day-traders, the ability to place an ETF order 24 hours a day would be helpful to those stay-the-course investors who simply are not able to place an order between the hours of 9:30am and 4:00pm. Hopefully in time there will be no "market hours" and liquidity and spreads will improve during what are currently off-peak times.
Salty... unless I'm mistaken any ETF order placed after market close executes at next open, if possible. Placing the order in the middle of the night would seemingly have no impact.

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by iceport » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:20 pm

saltycaper wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:03 pm
and why would I want to do that?
Contrary to some of the shoot-from-the-hip, Boglehead-bot auto-responses you see regarding day-traders, the ability to place an ETF order 24 hours a day would be helpful to those stay-the-course investors who simply are not able to place an order between the hours of 9:30am and 4:00pm. Hopefully in time there will be no "market hours" and liquidity and spreads will improve during what are currently off-peak times.
I find good ol' mutual funds to be far more effective at that. And they make it effortless to reliably make a dozen transactions simultaneously at a fair price, which comes in handy when there's a need to rebalance portfolio-wide across several account custodians. With very few exceptions, the use of ETFs is a huge step backwards from the convenience of trading mutual funds.
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by saltycaper » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:36 pm

iceport wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:20 pm

I find good ol' mutual funds to be far more effective at that. And they make it effortless to reliably make a dozen transactions simultaneously at a fair price, which comes in handy when there's a need to rebalance portfolio-wide across several account custodians. With very few exceptions, the use of ETFs is a huge step backwards from the convenience of trading mutual funds.
I prefer mutual funds as well, but sometimes the ETF is the cheaper or more tax-efficient choice.
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by aristotelian » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:50 pm

midareff wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:17 pm

Salty... unless I'm mistaken any ETF order placed after market close executes at next open, if possible. Placing the order in the middle of the night would seemingly have no impact.
Yes, I can place an order for market open, but as an ETF investor I prefer to know the price that I am paying. I would be more worried about getting caught in a big bid/ask spread by placing a market order for the open than if I can see with my own eyes that there is a $.01 spread. I don't see any downside to that from a Boglehead perspective.

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by Ragnoth » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:50 pm

TDA has allowed extended hours trading for years and years.

In my personal experience, the volume after-hours drops substantially and you see a pretty noticeable spike in the bid-ask spreads (even on otherwise high-volume securities). I don't think allowing 24/7 trading will substantially increase the volume after-hours. Maybe you can lure a few people into the platform, but I can't imagine it being any *better* than the current after-hours trading.

Paying a few extra pennies in bid-ask spread might not matter much in the long run, but it's a pet-peeve of mine, and one of the primary reasons why I make a point of executing trades during normal market hours. That said, I guess it's nice to have the option, even if I never plan to use it.

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by saltycaper » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:59 pm

midareff wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:17 pm

Salty... unless I'm mistaken any ETF order placed after market close executes at next open, if possible. Placing the order in the middle of the night would seemingly have no impact.
Spreads are larger for some ETFs at market open. Also, the price can move a lot from close to open, and with most brokers you can't specify a dollar amount of your purchase/sale and instead must specify the number of shares. This can make it difficult to place an order if you have $X to buy/sell but you don't know the price.
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by nisiprius » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:02 pm

If only that nanny SEC would change its mind and approve those Direxion 2X direct and inverse bitcoin shares, so I could trade 2X leveraged bitcoin ETFs 24x7... <--Note. Joke. Irony. Insincere. Ha. Ha.
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by livesoft » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:07 pm

Svensk Anga wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:05 pm
Looks like Livesoft will now need to be on watch for the odd "RBN" (really bad night). :D
Now I can lose money twice as fast! I'm excited.

Yes, TDAm has had extended hours trading for awhile. If I recall correctly, TDAm would only accept limit orders and not market orders during extended hours trading.

With the overnight trading, I'm wondering what would have happened in November 2016. That might have been quite exciting.
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by triceratop » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:14 pm

midareff wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:17 pm
saltycaper wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:03 pm
and why would I want to do that?
Contrary to some of the shoot-from-the-hip, Boglehead-bot auto-responses you see regarding day-traders, the ability to place an ETF order 24 hours a day would be helpful to those stay-the-course investors who simply are not able to place an order between the hours of 9:30am and 4:00pm. Hopefully in time there will be no "market hours" and liquidity and spreads will improve during what are currently off-peak times.
Salty... unless I'm mistaken any ETF order placed after market close executes at next open, if possible. Placing the order in the middle of the night would seemingly have no impact.
You are mistaken. If the market does not ever close during the week then the order will not go into effect at next open but instantaneously (except for weekend).
"To play the stock market is to play musical chairs under the chord progression of a bid-ask spread."

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by Doc » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:15 pm

livesoft wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:07 pm
Now I can lose money twice as fast! I'm excited.
You need to sharpen your slide rule. 24 hrs divided by 6.5 hrs is a lot more than twice. :beer
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by triceratop » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:22 pm

saltycaper wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:03 pm
and why would I want to do that?
Contrary to some of the shoot-from-the-hip, Boglehead-bot auto-responses you see regarding day-traders, the ability to place an ETF order 24 hours a day would be helpful to those stay-the-course investors who simply are not able to place an order between the hours of 9:30am and 4:00pm. Hopefully in time there will be no "market hours" and liquidity and spreads will improve during what are currently off-peak times.
Yes, this is the correct take in my opinion. (Ignore my joke comment above, intended purely to inject some levity)

Already ETF investors have some flexibility in choosing when to place their trades. Unless they commit behavorial errors and try to time the market (or are unavailable to place a trade when spreads are thinnest) they wisely choose to trade when they believe transaction costs are low. I predict a 24/7 trading market will have very little effect on how buy and hold investors already act with regard to using ETFs as an investment vehicle.
"To play the stock market is to play musical chairs under the chord progression of a bid-ask spread."

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by itstoomuch » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:51 pm

Ragnoth wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:50 pm
TDA has allowed extended hours trading for years and years.

In my personal experience, the volume after-hours drops substantially and you see a pretty noticeable spike in the bid-ask spreads (even on otherwise high-volume securities). I don't think allowing 24/7 trading will substantially increase the volume after-hours. Maybe you can lure a few people into the platform, but I can't imagine it being any *better* than the current after-hours trading.

Paying a few extra pennies in bid-ask spread might not matter much in the long run, but it's a pet-peeve of mine, and one of the primary reasons why I make a point of executing trades during normal market hours. That said, I guess it's nice to have the option, even if I never plan to use it.
For individual stock, You'd be amazed on the number of fat-figure (good) trades in extended hours. A lot of news comes out after normal closing hours and the extended market takes advantage of the opportunity. Likewise I have done some fat-finger (bad) trades myself in extended hours. The few extra pennies in my experience has sometimes been a couple of quarters or more.
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The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade. But why would you want to?

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:26 pm

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/22/investo ... trade.html
To be sure, online trading platforms — including TD Ameritrade — let clients trade in the premarket session (4 a.m. ET to 9:30 a.m. ET) and after-hours (4 p.m. ET to 8 p.m. ET). But TD Ameritrade's change lets people trade during the eight-hour window between the close of the after-hours session and the start of premarket trading. Quirk said traders on the platform want the same flexibility in trading that they have in online shopping.
Cryptocurrencies like bitcoin — which have surged in value and popularity over the past year — trade seamlessly for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week throughout the world, possibly showing that this constant trading will appeal to people.
He also noted, however, that trading individual stocks outside of the regular session is riskier than trading during normal market hours.

"The problem with trading equities around the clock is there's not that much demand to keep a natural supply-demand balance," Tabb said. "Small amounts of supply and demand can really move prices, so you have to be careful."
Just because you can trade all day and all night long, should you? (That was rhetorical, no answer needed.)
"Invest we must." -- Jack Bogle | “The purpose of investing is not to simply optimise returns and make yourself rich. The purpose is not to die poor.” -- William Bernstein

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by triceratop » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:45 pm

^^ I merged the duplicate topic by arcticpineapple into this topic.
"To play the stock market is to play musical chairs under the chord progression of a bid-ask spread."

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:12 pm

triceratop wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:45 pm
^^ I merged the duplicate topic by arcticpineapple into this topic.
thanks. did a search before posting but nothing came up. sorry about that.
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by develop » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:38 pm

saltycaper wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm
midareff wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:03 pm
and why would I want to do that?
Contrary to some of the shoot-from-the-hip, Boglehead-bot auto-responses you see regarding day-traders, the ability to place an ETF order 24 hours a day would be helpful to those stay-the-course investors who simply are not able to place an order between the hours of 9:30am and 4:00pm. Hopefully in time there will be no "market hours" and liquidity and spreads will improve during what are currently off-peak times.
Excellent point. I am a buy and hold, long-term investor. I work a lot and don't have a lot of time to buy etfs during the week. I would look forward to 24/7 trading with insignificant spreads, so that I can buy them when it works for me. This doesn't make me a day trader, or a loser (I hope).

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by AtlasShrugged? » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:26 am

KATNYC...There are bad ideas, and then there are spectacularly bad ideas. This is the latter.

The idea that a 'regular investor' sitting at home in their pajamas will somehow outwit the rocket scientists employed by Wall Street with their high frequency trading and arcane algorithms by trading 24/7 is just crazy. I get that TD Ameritrade is responding to the market - people want it. But I look at this like I would look at an adult giving matches to a three year standing next to a bucket full of gasoline.

Mr. Larimore's responses actually made me laugh out loud. "Double Losers' - And he is 100% correct.
“If you don't know, the thing to do is not to get scared, but to learn.”

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:03 pm

just heard this on marketplace this morning and thought..."Ah yes, that's why they're doing it! It'll make them more money at your expense!"

https://www.marketplace.org/2018/01/23/ ... ay-trading
The company said one driver for the change is Asian clients who want to trade U.S. stocks during their daytime hours. The company also wants to satisfy U.S. clients who want to trade in off hours. Analysts point out that constant trading isn’t the best portfolio strategy, and that Ameritrade stands to make money on more frequent trades.
"Invest we must." -- Jack Bogle | “The purpose of investing is not to simply optimise returns and make yourself rich. The purpose is not to die poor.” -- William Bernstein

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by Agggm » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:09 pm

KATNYC wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:10 am
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/22/investo ... trade.html

The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Traders on the TD Ameritrade platform are now able to buy and sell shares of ETFs like the SPDR S&P 500 (SPY) at any time of day.
"What we're doing is creating a seamless session," TD Ameritrade's Steven Quirk tells CNBC.
This might also be another way to get more people trading, according to one analyst.

The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day

TD Ameritrade extended trading hours on its platform starting Monday to 24 hours, five days a week for several popular exchange-traded funds. The e-broker also told CNBC that trading individual stocks around the clock may not be too far away.

Traders on the TD Ameritrade platform are now able to buy and sell shares of ETFs like the SPDR S&P 500 (SPY), iShares MSCI Emerging Markets ETF (EEM) and the SPDR Gold Trust (GLD) at any time of the day. Trades made between 8 p.m. ET and 4 a.m. ET are placed as limit orders and are executed through electronic communication networks.

DIA SPDR Dow Jones Industrial Average ETF Trust 3,745,800
EEM iShares MSCI Emerging Markets ETF 52,169,096
FXI iShares China Large-Cap ETF 12,473,703
GLD SPDR Gold Trust 7,528,532
IWM iShares Russell 2000 ETF 22,001,500
QQQ PowerShares QQQ Trust 28,915,661
SH ProShares Short S&P500 2,382,806
SLV iShares Silver Trust 7,989,362
SPY SPDR S&P 500 ETF Trust 81,851,495
TLT iShares 20+ Year Treasury Bond ETF 9,140,309
UNG United States Natural Gas Fund LP 5,701,799
USO United States Oil Fund LP 13,955,540


The move lets the Average Joe buy and sell these ETFs when market-moving news hits overnight rather than waiting until the stock market opens to react to the news. TD Ameritrade's platform is used largely by retail investors.

"What we're doing is creating a seamless session," Steven Quirk, executive vice president of TD Ameritrade's trader group, told CNBC. "We know there's a lot of news that happens overnight when the market isn't open."

To be sure, online trading platforms — including TD Ameritrade — let clients trade in the premarket session (4 a.m. ET to 9:30 a.m. ET) and after-hours (4 p.m. ET to 8 p.m. ET). But TD Ameritrade's change lets people trade during the eight-hour window between the close of the after-hours session and the start of premarket trading. Quirk said traders on the platform want the same flexibility in trading that they have in online shopping.

He said that TD Ameritrade would enable 24-hour trading for popular individual stocks, like Apple and Amazon, once liquidity for the SPY and other ETFs during the new session became large enough.

At the same time, this might be another way to get more people trading, said Richard Repetto, an analyst at Sandler O'Neill & Partners. "They're looking to do more trades whichever way they can, whether in stocks or other products," he said.

However, TD Ameritrade CEO Tim Hockey said in October the company averaged a record of 511, 000 trades per day during fiscal 2017, which ended Sept. 30.

The move also comes in the middle of a boom in cryptocurrency trading among retail investors. Cryptocurrencies like bitcoin — which have surged in value and popularity over the past year — trade seamlessly for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week throughout the world, possibly showing that this constant trading will appeal to people.

"For the more generic products that are more liquid like futures and bitcoin, 24-hour trading works" because there is strong global demand for those products, said Larry Tabb, founder of The Tabb Group.

He also noted, however, that trading individual stocks outside of the regular session is riskier than trading during normal market hours.

"The problem with trading equities around the clock is there's not that much demand to keep a natural supply-demand balance," Tabb said. "Small amounts of supply and demand can really move prices, so you have to be careful."
Sounds good 👍

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by triceratop » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:11 pm

JCE66 wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:26 am
KATNYC...There are bad ideas, and then there are spectacularly bad ideas. This is the latter.

The idea that a 'regular investor' sitting at home in their pajamas will somehow outwit the rocket scientists employed by Wall Street with their high frequency trading and arcane algorithms by trading 24/7 is just crazy. I get that TD Ameritrade is responding to the market - people want it. But I look at this like I would look at an adult giving matches to a three year standing next to a bucket full of gasoline.

Mr. Larimore's responses actually made me laugh out loud. "Double Losers' - And he is 100% correct.
How can you possibly know in advance that he is correct? (Anyway, he was responding to an obviously-joking post of mine, making a play on words; his post may not even have been serious). It's entirely possible that in 20 years we will have a market open 24/5 and people will not have to use their smartphones at work to place limit orders for their periodic contributions.

I see value in being able to place a limit order into a liquid market outside of work hours. Who said anything about frequent trading? Bogleheads also trade into buy and hold positions. Some Bogleheads seem disquietingly certain that the current market structure is ideal and cannot be improved upon in any way.

The 'regular investor' of your post seems to be a strawman. That said, I of course admonish against frequent day trading, night trading, and dusk/dawn trading.
"To play the stock market is to play musical chairs under the chord progression of a bid-ask spread."

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by itstoomuch » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:21 pm

^ Dawn and Disk trading is d'rigor for winter PNW people. :happy :annoyed :oops:
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by AtlasShrugged? » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:27 pm

How can you possibly know in advance that he is correct?
triceratop...The short answer is: I don't. The longer answer is, perhaps you have some data indicating that active, frequent traders do better than passive indexers, which is what I had in mind.

TD is responding to a market desire. No problem. But let's be honest here. This isn't being done for altruistic purposes.
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by KATNYC » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:44 pm

triceratop wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:11 pm
JCE66 wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:26 am
KATNYC...There are bad ideas, and then there are spectacularly bad ideas. This is the latter.

The idea that a 'regular investor' sitting at home in their pajamas will somehow outwit the rocket scientists employed by Wall Street with their high frequency trading and arcane algorithms by trading 24/7 is just crazy. I get that TD Ameritrade is responding to the market - people want it. But I look at this like I would look at an adult giving matches to a three year standing next to a bucket full of gasoline.

Mr. Larimore's responses actually made me laugh out loud. "Double Losers' - And he is 100% correct.
How can you possibly know in advance that he is correct? (Anyway, he was responding to an obviously-joking post of mine, making a play on words; his post may not even have been serious). It's entirely possible that in 20 years we will have a market open 24/5 and people will not have to use their smartphones at work to place limit orders for their periodic contributions.

I see value in being able to place a limit order into a liquid market outside of work hours. Who said anything about frequent trading? Bogleheads also trade into buy and hold positions. Some Bogleheads seem disquietingly certain that the current market structure is ideal and cannot be improved upon in any way.

The 'regular investor' of your post seems to be a strawman. That said, I of course admonish against frequent day trading, night trading, and dusk/dawn trading.
JCE66
Way too serious.
I'm sure some people want to trade all day and night. TD surely did research to add this new option.
I won't be one of those 3 am traders.

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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by triceratop » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:14 pm

JCE66 wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:27 pm
How can you possibly know in advance that he is correct?
triceratop...The short answer is: I don't. The longer answer is, perhaps you have some data indicating that active, frequent traders do better than passive indexers, which is what I had in mind.

TD is responding to a market desire. No problem. But let's be honest here. This isn't being done for altruistic purposes.
I didn't say I had data nor is what I said reliant on that data existing (I also doubt such data exists). The time at which one trades is a separate question from the frequency with which one trades.

Nothing in business these days is done for purely altrustic purposes. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing for investors who have the correct behavior anyway.

It seems this thread is proving the point I made in my first post in the thread:
triceratop wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:03 pm
As a contrarian I take this as excellent news. There are many reasons: one is that it gives the ETF haters more to focus on, and talk about the evils of trading (all true), while ignoring the legitimate uses of ETFs for buy-and-hold. That is, many critique products when they should critique human behavior. In addition to this, extra volume can only help my already-miniscule transaction costs and if brokers have a profitable business there will more money in brokerage transfer bonuses.

Go TDAM!
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by Rowan Oak » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:19 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:23 pm
triceratop wrote:Taylor, there must be some misunderstanding. This will allow one to trade at night. If day trading is for losers, then what does that make night traders?
Double losers.

Best wishes.
Taylor
Great answer!
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Re: The regular investor can now trade the stock market 24 hours a day with TD Ameritrade

Post by saltycaper » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:46 pm

I guess everyone who owns ETFs and works during the day is a loser now. Sad.

Also, "double losers" would be two people, both losers. If all I had to do to replicate myself was place an ETF trade at night, I certainly would, even if it meant both of my selves would be losers.
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