Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

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confusedinvestor
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Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by confusedinvestor » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:19 am

Is anyone mirror AA across multiple accounts and let get go some tax efficiency for easier re-balancing when you have 2 401Ks, 2 Roths, 2 Taxables, 1 Robo ( for automate TLH) ?

What is the best way to ballpark calculate how much I'm loosing in taxes/yrs for placing CA-Muni + TIPS in Taxable beside TSM, TINT for 80:20 AA for overall AA mirroring acorss multiple accounts?

Reference: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Asset_a ... e_accounts

livesoft
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by livesoft » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:34 am

By using a muni bond fund, you are not losing to taxes. The TIPS fund would be subject to federal taxes, so you can use your tax software to see how much that costs you in taxes. I doubt it would be very much at all. Presumably you would figure out a way to keep your asset allocation in taxable without selling anything for a capital gain.

Unless one is using a Target Retirement Date fund in each account, it seems to me it would much much harder to rebalance in every single account. I certainly have fewer transactions by not putting the same asset allocation in all the different accounts that we have. Most of my accounts have no buy/sell transactions each year which really cannot be easier.

Here's how it's done for me: viewtopic.php?t=150267

I want to also say that many people sequester different accounts for different goals and thus have a different asset allocation in each separate account. Examples often seen on the forum is something like:

1. "We need our taxable account to be safer than our retirement account because our taxable account is for a home down payment."

2. "We need our taxable account to be safer than our retirement account because our taxable account is for early retirement between ages 50 and 59.5 before we can access our qualified accounts without penalty."
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mhc
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by mhc » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:31 am

For me mirroring would not be easier. I have 9 accounts. Most of the accounts only have a single fund. My two largest accounts (401k, taxable) have multiple funds. All rebalancing is done in the 401k and taxable. I set up a spreadsheet a number of years ago that makes it really easy to manage. I think the spreadsheet took me an hour to create while sitting in my lazyboy watching a football game.

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Sandtrap
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by Sandtrap » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:35 am

DW and I do not but DW manages her mother's portfolio by mirroring AA across accounts. Though not quite as efficient, it's easier for her to keep track of and manage. Less stress and good sleep factor. That's what her priorities are for now. However, should her mom pass away, DW will instruct the hares, who are not financially savvy, to consider converting to balanced funds.
j :D
Last edited by Sandtrap on Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

renue74
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by renue74 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:41 am

I'm not sure mirroring is the best solution. My wife and I have 10 accounts and I keep a detailed Google sheet of the portfolio separated by account, but in my sheet, I identify stock/bond funds, and international.

Part of the sheet then displays our % asset allocation based on those 3 identifiers.

If I ever rebalance, I simply make a duplicate of the sheet and make test changes to my portfolio to view the outcomes. After I'm happy with the rebalance, I execute the trades.

Takes a total of 5 minutes to review the rebalance plan.

I also keep a copy of the portfolio in M$ X-ray portfolio tracker. That way, I know we're diversified enough. I usually only look at the X-ray tracker a few times per year. If you have a T.Rowe Price account (just make a free account), then you can get the X-Ray tracker for free.

Yes...I look at my portfolio everyday, but really maybe only make changes to it 1x/year. (Outside of normal additions)

cjcerny
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by cjcerny » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:42 am

mhc wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:31 am
For me mirroring would not be easier. I have 9 accounts. Most of the accounts only have a single fund. My two largest accounts (401k, taxable) have multiple funds. All rebalancing is done in the 401k and taxable. I set up a spreadsheet a number of years ago that makes it really easy to manage. I think the spreadsheet took me an hour to create while sitting in my lazyboy watching a football game.
Aren't you concerned that your system is vulnerable when you pass away? 9 accounts and re-balancing them is easy for a Boglehead with an intense interest in personal finance and investing, but do your heirs share your interests? Is a complex legacy like that going to result in a phone call to Edward Jones months after you've passed? Would that seem like a waste of all your hard work and saving? I try to keep stuff like that in mind when I do my investment decision making. I probably pay more in fees and taxes as a result, but I think that gives my legacy a better chance of not falling into the wrong hands.
Last edited by cjcerny on Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jack FFR1846
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:43 am

10 accounts between my wife and me. Only one of them, which holds about half my investments and is a traditional IRA has more than 1 fund in it. That's where I do all of my rebalancing. I take advantage of the absolute best ERs.
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livesoft
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by livesoft » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:49 am

cjcerny wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:42 am
Aren't you concerned that your system is vulnerable when you pass away? 9 accounts and re-balancing them is easy for a Boglehead with an intense interest in personal finance and investing, but do your heirs share your interests? Is a complex legacy like that going to result in a phone call to Edward Jones months after you've passed? Would that seem like a waste of all your hard work and saving? I try to keep stuff like in mind when I do my investment decision making.
Those are good questions to ask and I have asked them myself. My answers are
1. For my spouse, it would be no problem. She was in a couple of investment clubs and knows about investing, taxes, asset allocation, and things like that.

2. For my kids, I have talked to them while we walked the dog together. I stressed that our (the parents) asset allocation is not their asset allocation and they can do anything want to with the investments, but I would prefer that they invest in low-expense-ratio, passively-managed index funds. All our kids are using index funds at the present time whenever they can in an asset allocation they have picked either as Target Retirement funds or a 3-fund portfolio mimicking the AA of a Target Retirement fund.

and

3. Besides, they will come to bogleheads.org and get some help.
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mhc
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by mhc » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:08 am

cjcerny wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:42 am
mhc wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:31 am
For me mirroring would not be easier. I have 9 accounts. Most of the accounts only have a single fund. My two largest accounts (401k, taxable) have multiple funds. All rebalancing is done in the 401k and taxable. I set up a spreadsheet a number of years ago that makes it really easy to manage. I think the spreadsheet took me an hour to create while sitting in my lazyboy watching a football game.
Aren't you concerned that your system is vulnerable when you pass away? 9 accounts and re-balancing them is easy for a Boglehead with an intense interest in personal finance and investing, but do your heirs share your interests? Is a complex legacy like that going to result in a phone call to Edward Jones months after you've passed? Would that seem like a waste of all your hard work and saving? I try to keep stuff like that in mind when I do my investment decision making. I probably pay more in fees and taxes as a result, but I think that gives my legacy a better chance of not falling into the wrong hands.
I am in the accumulation phase, and there really isn't a way to reduce the number of accounts without surrendering tax benefits. Once I retire, the number of accounts will go down.

401k
NQDCP
HSA
Taxable
His Roth
Her Roth
DAF
Checking Acct
Savings Acct

Which would I eliminate?

I count all these as my retirement portfolio because when I retire the money in these accounts will support us in retirement.

We also have 6 accounts for college funds. Yes there are a lot of accounts, but due to our tax code, this is what we have.

livesoft
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by livesoft » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:24 am

mhc wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:08 am
...
DAF
...
I count all these as my retirement portfolio because when I retire the money in these accounts will support us in retirement.
Well, except for the DAF. ;)

We have a DAF, but I don't even track anything in it anymore because it's no longer my money. I hope the balance is close to zero, but that's my spouse's responsibility to get it to zero by making grants from the DAF.
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mhc
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by mhc » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:37 am

I actually count the DAF. That is how I will finance my charitable giving in retirement. I am currently in a very high marginal tax bracket and only a few years away from retirement.

TheHouse7
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by TheHouse7 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:45 am

I mirror across all accounts. My wife and I don't have much, and I want her learn how to rebalance easily before it gets complicated (6-9 accounts.)
"PSX will always go up 20%, why invest in anything else?!" -Father-in-law early retired.

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telemark
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by telemark » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:46 am

Not now, but I mirrored two 401K plans for some years. It was convenient since the Fidelity web site makes it easy to see your allocation and rebalance within a plan. Eventually the bad plan grew enough that I reorganized, made a spreadsheet, and started managing them as a single portfolio.

Mike Scott
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by Mike Scott » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:51 am

no; a few cells in a spreadsheet keep track across all accounts

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celia
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by celia » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:09 pm

mhc wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:31 am
For me mirroring would not be easier. I have 9 accounts. Most of the accounts only have a single fund. My two largest accounts (401k, taxable) have multiple funds. All rebalancing is done in the 401k and taxable. I set up a spreadsheet a number of years ago that makes it really easy to manage. I think the spreadsheet took me an hour to create while sitting in my lazyboy watching a football game.
There would be no tax consequences during the years you rebalance if you only did it in tax-advantaged accounts.

Sandtrap wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:35 am
However, should her mom pass away, DW will instruct the hares, who are not financially savvy, to consider converting to balanced funds.
My goodness, I don't know ANY rabbits who are financially savvy. Good Luck with them. :D :D :D

TravelforFun
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by TravelforFun » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:31 pm

No. My Roth and HSA are 100% equity and I have enough bonds in my IRAs to achieve my AA.

TravelforFun

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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:46 pm

No. It's not even possible for me, as I have a tilt to small and value plus REIT. Those aren't even available in my 401(k). I do all my rebalancing with new money, so I haven't had any trouble keeping things in line. Due to the booming stock market, the 401(k) is almost all fixed-income these days.
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artthomp
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by artthomp » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:28 pm

I re-balance once a year when I have to take the IRS Required Distribution from my IRA funds which are still 70% of the investments I am handling.

I am 77 years old and retired. When I became concerned about my asset allocation (2008-2009), I wrote a private message to the expert Diehard Bond expert, Mel Lindauer. He suggested I look at the Vanguard Retirement Income Fund. I examined it, liked it, and since I'm a fairly conservative investor, I setup my investment plan basically according to their allocation plan. I am allocating my IRA, Roth IRA, and my taxable in the proportions of their allocation. I don't want to use their fund directly for tax reasons. For example, as I take IRS Required Distributions I am investing excess taxable proceeds in equities because of the more favorable tax treatment.
My Retirement Income modified asset allocation:
VMMXX - Money Market - 2.0% - taxable, Roth, IRA
VBTLX - Total Bond Index - 38.0% - IRA
VTAPX - Short Term Inflation Protected - 16.0% - IRA
VTABX - Total International Bond Index - 14% - IRA
Total Fixed Income - 70%
Total Stock ETF (VTI) - 15.37% - taxable, IRA
Total World ETF (VT) - 6.71% - Roth IRA
Total International ETF (VXUS) - 7.92% - taxable, IRA
Total Equities - 30%
Art
Art

GibsonL6s
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by GibsonL6s » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:05 pm

I have two taxable accounts, an IRA and a 401k and I mirror 60/40 in all, just because I have no idea about future tax rates I may be in and I like simple.

confusedinvestor
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by confusedinvestor » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:21 am

Thank you renue74 . I've private messaged you if you dont mind sharing a no-personal-data copy of your Google sheet. I'll really appreciate that.

My wife old 401K was with TRPrice but moved the $ to her current 401k so we have to see if we can still access it for X-ray access.
renue74 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:41 am
I'm not sure mirroring is the best solution. My wife and I have 10 accounts and I keep a detailed Google sheet of the portfolio separated by account, but in my sheet, I identify stock/bond funds, and international.

Part of the sheet then displays our % asset allocation based on those 3 identifiers.

confusedinvestor
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by confusedinvestor » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:55 am

Livesoft, All,

thank you for your suggestions. I have started reading the book Bogleheads Guide to Investing.

Me (42) and DW (42) and we have all these accounts b/c we made mistakes of making it complex sadly.

However, our goal is taxable right now is to draw if I cant work until 59.5, given my health (surgery early this year) and challenging industry.

Do you guys have any suggestions to make my accounts / goals simple?

His (42), Her (42);
Goal 1: Retirement Goal: Current AA 80:20
Goal 2: Pre-Retirement Goal (to draw 55-65 yrs): AA: 70:30

Accounts:
1. His 401k Fidelity - Holds Stock/Bond: 70:20
2. His 401k Fidelity Brokerage Link - Holds Emerging/Reit: 5:5
3. Her 401k Fidelity - Holds Us-Stock - 10%n- All funds > 1% ER - Must Hold 10% of 401K value per Company Plan
4. Her 401k Fidelity Brokerage Link - Holds US/Bond: 70:20
5. Her Roth - Small Cap
6. His Roth - Small Cap
7. Joint Taxable at Schwab: 4 Fund (Total /Int/Muni/Inflation-Protected-Bills) 70:30 for Goal 2
8. Joint Taxable - Schwab Intelligent Portfolio for Auto Tax Loss Harvesting - No new $ goes here, has significant gains, cant sell sadly...
9. Joint Taxable - Schwab Intelligent Advise for CFP Access, MoneyGuidePro Access - No new $ goes here, has significant gains, cant sell...
10. Merryl Edge BoA - bunch of ETFs but AA: 70:30 to get BoA Premier Honors level to get CC Cash back 1.75% - No new $ goes here...
11. HSA a Fidelity
12. 529s at Utah - 4 accounts b/c we have 2 kids - Auto Glide - Not looking at those at all.

Any suggestions how to consolidate and/or simplify w/o tax hits?

thanks again to everyone for all the help.

livesoft wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:34 am
By using a muni bond fund, you are not losing to taxes. The TIPS fund would be subject to federal taxes, so you can use your tax software to see how much that costs you in taxes. I doubt it would be very much at all. Presumably you would figure out a way to keep your asset allocation in taxable without selling anything for a capital gain.

Unless one is using a Target Retirement Date fund in each account, it seems to me it would much much harder to rebalance in every single account. I certainly have fewer transactions by not putting the same asset allocation in all the different accounts that we have. Most of my accounts have no buy/sell transactions each year which really cannot be easier.

Here's how it's done for me: viewtopic.php?t=150267

I want to also say that many people sequester different accounts for different goals and thus have a different asset allocation in each separate account. Examples often seen on the forum is something like:

1. "We need our taxable account to be safer than our retirement account because our taxable account is for a home down payment."

2. "We need our taxable account to be safer than our retirement account because our taxable account is for early retirement between ages 50 and 59.5 before we can access our qualified accounts without penalty."

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mhc
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by mhc » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:22 am

op,

if you want help simplifiing your portfolio, I recommend starting a new thread. You will need to list lots of details so that people can give you specific advice.

The % in each fund, fund options in 401ks, cost basis/gains for taxable accounts, tax bracket, how much do you give to charity, ....

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midareff
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by midareff » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:24 am

A mirror doesn't have to be exact. AA using Total US, Total International and bonds across IRA and taxable. In taxable I use Tax-Ex bond fund instead of a taxable bond fund.

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Sandtrap
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Re: Anyone mirror AA acorss multiple accounts ?

Post by Sandtrap » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:58 am

confusedinvestor wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:55 am
Livesoft, All,

thank you for your suggestions. I have started reading the book Bogleheads Guide to Investing.

Me (42) and DW (42) and we have all these accounts b/c we made mistakes of making it complex sadly.

However, our goal is taxable right now is to draw if I cant work until 59.5, given my health (surgery early this year) and challenging industry.

Do you guys have any suggestions to make my accounts / goals simple?

His (42), Her (42);
Goal 1: Retirement Goal: Current AA 80:20
Goal 2: Pre-Retirement Goal (to draw 55-65 yrs): AA: 70:30

Accounts:
1. His 401k Fidelity - Holds Stock/Bond: 70:20
2. His 401k Fidelity Brokerage Link - Holds Emerging/Reit: 5:5
3. Her 401k Fidelity - Holds Us-Stock - 10%n- All funds > 1% ER - Must Hold 10% of 401K value per Company Plan
4. Her 401k Fidelity Brokerage Link - Holds US/Bond: 70:20
5. Her Roth - Small Cap
6. His Roth - Small Cap
7. Joint Taxable at Schwab: 4 Fund (Total /Int/Muni/Inflation-Protected-Bills) 70:30 for Goal 2
8. Joint Taxable - Schwab Intelligent Portfolio for Auto Tax Loss Harvesting - No new $ goes here, has significant gains, cant sell sadly...
9. Joint Taxable - Schwab Intelligent Advise for CFP Access, MoneyGuidePro Access - No new $ goes here, has significant gains, cant sell...
10. Merryl Edge BoA - bunch of ETFs but AA: 70:30 to get BoA Premier Honors level to get CC Cash back 1.75% - No new $ goes here...
11. HSA a Fidelity
12. 529s at Utah - 4 accounts b/c we have 2 kids - Auto Glide - Not looking at those at all.

Any suggestions how to consolidate and/or simplify w/o tax hits?

thanks again to everyone for all the help.
Highly suggest you make a new post requesting a "portfolio review" so the expert portfolio reviewers can help you.
This is the format:
Asking Portfolio Questions
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewt ... =1&t=6212
Take the info that you posted above and put it in this format, then make a new post.
This post addresses "asset allocation across multiple accounts".
Your new post will be something like. . "portfolio review request. . . etc"
j :D

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