Who are heirs? No will.

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lhwerdyt*1791c
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Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:52 am

Based on the following information, who are the legal heirs and how is the estate to be legally spit among the heirs? Is this a state or federal based law? The family is in the process of hiring an estate lawyer but appreciates comments from the forum.</t>

<t>1. An uncle, Robert, recently deceased. He resided in Indiana. A will has not been found as of yet and is not expected to exist. It is a modest estate consisting mostly of a house.
<br/>
2. Robert's most recent spouse, Ann, predeceased him years ago. Ann had two biological children with a previous spouse. Her previous spouse is long deceased. Her children lived with Robert and their mother, Ann, but Robert did not legally adopt the two children. These children are living. <br/>
<br/>
3. Robert had a (one) biological child with a previous spouse (before Ann); both that spouse and child predeceased him.<br/>
<br/>
4. Robert also had three (3) brothers who all predeceased him. <br/>
<br/>
5. Robert's brother #1 had no children. <br/>
<br/>
6. Brother #2 had three biological children who are living, making them Robert's direct niece and direct nephews. <br/>
<br/>
7. Brother #3 had two children who also predeceased Robert. However, the two children of brother #3 each had two children who are living, making them Robert's grand niece and nephew.
<br/>
9. A neighbor who is not a lawyer (and who is not at all involved, here, beyond being a neighbor) said that 100% of the estate must be legally, equally split among the three living children of Robert's brother #2 because they are Robert's direct nephews and niece. The neighbor also said that the grand nephews and grand niece (the children's children of brother #3) are not heirs because Robert's direct nephews and a niece are living and are "closer" in order than the grand nephews and grand niece; he also said that if Robert's direct nephews and niece had predeceased him then the estate would go to any living surviving grand nieces and/or nephews, etc.<br/>
<br/>
10. Another person who is not a lawyer (and not otherwise not involved) said that the estate is split between Robert's direct nephew and niece (50% total among them) and Robert's grand nephews and niece (50% total among them).<br/>
<br/>
11. Both also said that the surviving children of Robert's most recent predeceased spouse do not legally inherit the estate because he never legally adopted them.
Last edited by lhwerdyt*1791c on Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ccieemeritus
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by ccieemeritus » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:07 am

I am not a lawyer. But I read some books on this recently.

Heirs are by state law. In effect if you don't have a will your state has a "default will" for you. What state?

Note that bank, investment, and retirement accounts may go according to how Robert filled out his "beneficiary" forms and completely ignore the "default state will". A beneficiary simply needs to show up at the bank/brokerage with a certified copy of the death certificate to (after some paperwork and delay) collect.

TwstdSista
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by TwstdSista » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:01 am

In my state:

1. Living Spouse and children/grandchildren -- Robert has none in this scenario
2. Living Parents -- none are mentioned in this scenario
3. Living Siblings -- none
4. Living children and grandchildren of siblings -- Robert does have these

So in my state, Robert's estate would be split 1/4 each to his three living nieces/nephews and 1/8 each to his grand-niece and grand-nephew.

Effectively, each direct niece/nephew gets a "share" and the grand niece and nephew split their parent's "share". If the grand-niece and nephew have different parents, the split is now 5 ways instead 4.

(Edit: based solely on the facts provided re: 6. three children of brother and 7. two grandchildren of brother. There are some confusing facts after that about there only being two direct nieces/nephews....)

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oldcomputerguy
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by oldcomputerguy » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:25 am

This article from Nolo on settling an estate without a will might help. Also, try googling for "intestacy law" for your state. Given the circumstances, I'd also suggest googling the terms "per stirpes" and "per capita".

Once you have some idea of how things will proceed, I'd suggest contacting a practicing probate lawyer and lay any questions in front of them.
It’s taken me a lot of years, but I’ve come around to this: If you’re dumb, surround yourself with smart people. And if you’re smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you.

2stepsbehind
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by 2stepsbehind » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:29 am

They will likely need to hire counsel. Here's a link to the applicable statute for Indiana:
http://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-29-pr ... 1-2-1.html
Particularly relevant for your purposes:
(3) Except as provided in subsection (e), if there is no surviving spouse or issue of the intestate, then to the surviving parents, brothers, and sisters, and the issue of deceased brothers and sisters of the intestate...Issue of deceased brothers and sisters shall take by representation.

(4) If there is no surviving parent or brother or sister of the intestate, then to the issue of brothers and sisters.  If the distributees described in this subdivision are all in the same degree of kinship to the intestate, they shall take equally or, if of unequal degree, then those of more remote degrees shall take by representation
I can't tell from your description whether there is a living sibling. You mention three brothers that predeceased him, but then describe a "Brother #4."

"By representation" generally means that the predeceased beneficiaries’ shares at the same generation are divided equally between all their children. For example, if Jack had a will providing that his assets pass equally to his three children, Matt, Jim, and Tony and their issue by representation and Matt had two children, Jim had one child, and Tony had five children and Jim and Tony predeceased their father, when Jack dies, Matt would receive one-third of his estate (1/3), and Jim and Tony’s children (6 in total) would all split the remaining two-thirds of the estate equally.

Hopefully that helps.

bsteiner
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by bsteiner » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:44 am

Did Robert's predeceased child have any children?

novillero
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by novillero » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:50 am

#10 is correct.
Signed a N.J./NY Lawyer

P.S. the surrogate’s office where the person died will be able to help. Don’t get lawyers involved. It’s not necessary.

mouses
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by mouses » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:05 am

As far as I know, state law governs this. However, if I were you, I'd make a phone call to the local probate court and ask them what to do. They can tell you who sorts this out and if you need to spend money in a lawyer. My Mom had a will, but the probate clerk was very helpful with questions I had as executor.

NotWhoYouThink
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:53 am

Who is Tom?

bigred77
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by bigred77 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:02 am

You likely do not need a lawyer if you or someone else can put just a little time and effort into this.

The estate will be governed by Indiana state law regarding descent and distribution. Just google it. It’s not as intimidating as it might sound.

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dm200
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by dm200 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:38 am

From what I understand, if you do not have a valid will, your state has one for you. I believe it is a matter of applicable state law (and perhaps regulations).

ved
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by ved » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:59 am

Did Robert change his name to Tom, and change it back to Robert ? :D

Carefreeap
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by Carefreeap » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:28 am

I'm confused as to whether Robert had 3 or 4 brothers in the O.P? Or is he one of the numbered brothers?

jonnyboy
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by jonnyboy » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:37 am

I am also confused as to whether there are three or four brothers. That answer will directly have an impact on the answer.

The applicable statute is IC 29-1-2-1, which can be located on pages 9 and 10 of this:

http://iga.in.gov/legislative/laws/2017 ... /IC%2029-1

Signed,
A FL/NY lawyer

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oldcomputerguy
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by oldcomputerguy » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:44 am

This might help. Indiana Code Title 29:
(d) The share of the net estate not distributable to the surviving spouse, or the entire net estate if there is no surviving spouse, shall descend and be distributed as follows:

(1) To the issue of the intestate, if they are all of the same degree of kinship to the intestate, they shall take equally, or if of unequal degree, then those of more remote degrees shall take by representation.

(2) Except as provided in subsection (e), if there is a surviving spouse but no surviving issue of the intestate, then to the surviving parents of the intestate.

(3) Except as provided in subsection (e), if there is no surviving spouse or issue of the intestate, then to the surviving parents, brothers, and sisters, and the issue of deceased brothers and sisters of the intestate.  Each living parent of the intestate shall be treated as of the same degree as a brother or sister and shall be entitled to the same share as a brother or sister.  However, the share of each parent shall be not less than one-fourth ( 1/4 ) of the decedent's net estate.  Issue of deceased brothers and sisters shall take by representation.

(4) If there is no surviving parent or brother or sister of the intestate, then to the issue of brothers and sisters.  If the distributees described in this subdivision are all in the same degree of kinship to the intestate, they shall take equally or, if of unequal degree, then those of more remote degrees shall take by representation.

(5) If there is no surviving issue or parent of the intestate or issue of a parent, then to the surviving grandparents of the intestate equally.

(6) If there is no surviving issue or parent or issue of a parent, or grandparent of the intestate, then the estate of the decedent shall be divided into that number of shares equal to the sum of:

(A) the number of brothers and sisters of the decedent's parents surviving the decedent;  plus

(B) the number of deceased brothers and sisters of the decedent's parents leaving issue surviving both them and the decedent;

and one (1) of the shares shall pass to each of the brothers and sisters of the decedent's parents or their respective issue per stirpes.
It’s taken me a lot of years, but I’ve come around to this: If you’re dumb, surround yourself with smart people. And if you’re smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you.

2stepsbehind
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by 2stepsbehind » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:37 pm

novillero wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:50 am
#10 is correct.
Signed a N.J./NY Lawyer

P.S. the surrogate’s office where the person died will be able to help. Don’t get lawyers involved. It’s not necessary.
There is no surrogate's office in Indiana and if you call the relevant county superior court they will direct you to obtain counsel.

2stepsbehind
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by 2stepsbehind » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:44 pm

jonnyboy wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:37 am
I am also confused as to whether there are three or four brothers. That answer will directly have an impact on the answer.

The applicable statute is IC 29-1-2-1, which can be located on pages 9 and 10 of this:

http://iga.in.gov/legislative/laws/2017 ... /IC%2029-1

Signed,
A FL/NY lawyer
Or at the link I hyperlinked above :wink:

jonnyboy
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by jonnyboy » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:49 pm

2stepsbehind wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:44 pm
jonnyboy wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:37 am
I am also confused as to whether there are three or four brothers. That answer will directly have an impact on the answer.

The applicable statute is IC 29-1-2-1, which can be located on pages 9 and 10 of this:

http://iga.in.gov/legislative/laws/2017 ... /IC%2029-1

Signed,
A FL/NY lawyer
Or at the link I hyperlinked above :wink:

I suppose I was 1 step behind.

:beer

Ragnoth
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by Ragnoth » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:59 pm

lhwerdyt*1791c wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:52 am
Based on the following information, who are the legal heirs and how is the estate to be legally spit among the heirs? Is this a state or federal based law? The family is in the process of hiring an estate lawyer but appreciates comments from the forum.</t>

<t>1. An uncle, Robert, recently deceased. He resided in Indiana. A will has not been found as of yet and is not expected to exist. It is a modest estate.
<br/>
2. Robert's most recent spouse, Ann, predeceased him years ago. Ann had two biological children with a previous spouse. Her previous spouse is long deceased. Her children lived with Robert and their mother, Ann, but Robert did not legally adopt the two children. These children are living. <br/>
<br/>
3. Robert had a (one) biological child with a previous spouse (before Ann); both that spouse and child predeceased him.<br/>
<br/>
4. Robert also had three brothers who all predeceased him. <br/>
<br/>
5. Brother #1 and #2 had no children. <br/>
<br/>
6. Brother #3 had three biological children who are living, making them Tom's direct niece and nephews.<br/>
<br/>
7. Brother #4 had two children who also predeceased Robert. However, the two children had two children who are living, making them Tom's grand-niece and grand-nephew.
<br/>
9. An neighbor who is not a lawyer (and who is not at all involved, here, beyond being a neighbor) said that 100% of the estate must be legally, equally split among the three living children of Robert's brother #3 because they are Robert's direct nephews and niece. He also said that the grand nephews and grand niece are not heirs because Robert's direct nephews and a niece are living. He further said that if the direct nephews and niece had predeceased Robert then the estate would go to any living surviving grand nieces and/or nephews, etc.<br/>
<br/>
10. Another person who is not a lawyer (and not otherwise not involved) said that the estate is split between Robert's direct nephew and niece (50% total among them) and Robert's grand nephews and niece (50% total among them).<br/>
<br/>
11. Both also said that the surviving children of Robert's most recent predeceased spouse do not legally inherit the estate because he never legally adopted them.
You need to look at your particular State's intestacy laws. In this case, it looks like IC 29-1-2-1(d)(4) is what is most relevant:
(d) The share of the net estate not distributable to the surviving spouse, or the entire net
estate if there is no surviving spouse, shall descend and be distributed as follows:...
(4) If there is no surviving parent or brother or sister of the intestate, then to the issue
of brothers and sisters. If the distributees described in this subdivision are all in the
same degree of kinship to the intestate, they shall take equally or, if of unequal degree,
then those of more remote degrees shall take by representation
Somebody with proper legal training can comment, but my understanding would break down as follows:

His estate would have been divided evenly among his brothers. Each of the brother's shares would then get get divided evenly among their children, and their shares among their children, etc.

In this case, there were 3 (or 4?) brothers:
-- #1 The 1 (or 2?) brothers who died childless return their shares to the pot
-- #2 dies and his 50% gets passed evenly to his three biological children (the nieces and nephews).
-- #3 dies and his 50% would get passed to his (now dead) children, and is instead passed evenly to his two grand-children (the grand-nephews).

Parse it all and you wind up with:
1/6 (16.67%) for each of the three nieces and nephews.
1/4 (25%) for each of the two grand-nephews.

This is basically the logic behind #10 above.
Last edited by Ragnoth on Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JGoneRiding
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by JGoneRiding » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:41 pm

It's by representation not stripes. The grand nephews do not get more than the nephews just because there are less if them in that family line.

Ianal but I believe the correct math is the nephew/niece generation splits 75% if estate and the grand nephew generation splits 25%

In some states the grand stage would get nothing if any living higher up relatives

https://www.vjrussolaw.com/what-is-the- ... er-capita/

I thought this did a decent job of difference

Edit: I am still not a lawyer but if I understand correctly if the direct niece /nephew have children those children would also participate in splitting the last 25% it doesn't matter that their parents are living.
Last edited by JGoneRiding on Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

jonnyboy
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by jonnyboy » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:47 pm

This is why we need to know if there is a brother 4 or not. Once we know that, we can answer the question.

Ragnoth
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by Ragnoth » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:15 pm

You're right, what I described about would be by stirpes. I'm not as familiar with "by representation." Reading on it a little, I'm not sure if the number of brothers is important. Since they are all dead, wouldn't that moot the issue? The closest thing I can find to a good explanation of what happens when there is a "missing" generation is the Colorado statutory language cited in https://definitions.uslegal.com/b/by-representation/, or the examples on http://thismatter.com/money/wills-estat ... -issue.htm .

There were five descendants total in the "niece/nephew" generation, three of which are alive (the three nieces/nephews). Based on that I think each of the thee nieces nephews would get 1/5 (20%), and the portion that would have gone to the deceased members of the generation gets passed down further.

There are now two descendants total in the "grand-niece/nephew" generation. They would split that remaining 2/5 among themselves. Regardless if they shared the same parent or not, I think this would wind up as an even split. By coincidence, that means they would each get 1/5 (20%) as well.

ccieemeritus
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by ccieemeritus » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:21 am

I have not seen the OP come back and identify the state. I think we need that.

Ragnoth
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by Ragnoth » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:48 am

ccieemeritus wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:21 am
I have not seen the OP come back and identify the state. I think we need that.
Original post states that the decedent lived in Indiana.
1. An uncle, Robert, recently deceased. He resided in Indiana. A will has not been found as of yet and is not expected to exist. It is a modest estate.

ccieemeritus
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by ccieemeritus » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:49 am

Ragnoth wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:48 am
Original post states that the decedent lived in Indiana.
Missed that. Thank you.

lhwerdyt*1791c
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:20 pm

ccieemeritus wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:07 am
I am not a lawyer. But I read some books on this recently.

Heirs are by state law. In effect if you don't have a will your state has a "default will" for you. What state?

Note that bank, investment, and retirement accounts may go according to how Robert filled out his "beneficiary" forms and completely ignore the "default state will". A beneficiary simply needs to show up at the bank/brokerage with a certified copy of the death certificate to (after some paperwork and delay) collect.
Thank you! Yes, the state is Indiana.

lhwerdyt*1791c
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:22 pm

ccieemeritus wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:21 am
I have not seen the OP come back and identify the state. I think we need that.
Hello, again. I made a few correction to my original post. Robert had only three brothers.

lhwerdyt*1791c
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:29 pm

TwstdSista wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:01 am
In my state:

1. Living Spouse and children/grandchildren -- Robert has none in this scenario
2. Living Parents -- none are mentioned in this scenario
3. Living Siblings -- none
4. Living children and grandchildren of siblings -- Robert does have these

So in my state, Robert's estate would be split 1/4 each to his three living nieces/nephews and 1/8 each to his grand-niece and grand-nephew.

Effectively, each direct niece/nephew gets a "share" and the grand niece and nephew split their parent's "share". That's the case, here, If the grand-niece and nephew have different parents, the split is now 5 ways instead 4. Same parents.

(Edit: based solely on the facts provided re: 6. three children of brother and 7. two grandchildren of brother. There are some confusing facts after that about there only being two direct nieces/nephews....) I will correct, thx.

lhwerdyt*1791c
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:32 pm

ccieemeritus wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:07 am
I am not a lawyer. But I read some books on this recently.

Heirs are by state law. In effect if you don't have a will your state has a "default will" for you. What state?

Note that bank, investment, and retirement accounts may go according to how Robert filled out his "beneficiary" forms and completely ignore the "default state will". A beneficiary simply needs to show up at the bank/brokerage with a certified copy of the death certificate to (after some paperwork and delay) collect.
Thx!

lhwerdyt*1791c
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:34 pm

oldcomputerguy wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:25 am
This article from Nolo on settling an estate without a will might help. Also, try googling for "intestacy law" for your state. Given the circumstances, I'd also suggest googling the terms "per stirpes" and "per capita".

Once you have some idea of how things will proceed, I'd suggest contacting a practicing probate lawyer and lay any questions in front of them.
Will do.

lhwerdyt*1791c
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:36 pm

2stepsbehind wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:29 am
They will likely need to hire counsel. Here's a link to the applicable statute for Indiana:
http://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-29-pr ... 1-2-1.html
Particularly relevant for your purposes:
(3) Except as provided in subsection (e), if there is no surviving spouse or issue of the intestate, then to the surviving parents, brothers, and sisters, and the issue of deceased brothers and sisters of the intestate...Issue of deceased brothers and sisters shall take by representation.

(4) If there is no surviving parent or brother or sister of the intestate, then to the issue of brothers and sisters.  If the distributees described in this subdivision are all in the same degree of kinship to the intestate, they shall take equally or, if of unequal degree, then those of more remote degrees shall take by representation
I can't tell from your description whether there is a living sibling. You mention three brothers that predeceased him, but then describe a "Brother #4."

"By representation" generally means that the predeceased beneficiaries’ shares at the same generation are divided equally between all their children. For example, if Jack had a will providing that his assets pass equally to his three children, Matt, Jim, and Tony and their issue by representation and Matt had two children, Jim had one child, and Tony had five children and Jim and Tony predeceased their father, when Jack dies, Matt would receive one-third of his estate (1/3), and Jim and Tony’s children (6 in total) would all split the remaining two-thirds of the estate equally.

Hopefully that helps.
Sorry, there are only three brothers.

lhwerdyt*1791c
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:38 pm

novillero wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:50 am
#10 is correct.
Signed a N.J./NY Lawyer

P.S. the surrogate’s office where the person died will be able to help. Don’t get lawyers involved. It’s not necessary.

Good info - appreciated.

lhwerdyt*1791c
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:38 pm

bsteiner wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:44 am
Did Robert's predeceased child have any children?
No.

lhwerdyt*1791c
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:39 pm

mouses wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:05 am
As far as I know, state law governs this. However, if I were you, I'd make a phone call to the local probate court and ask them what to do. They can tell you who sorts this out and if you need to spend money in a lawyer. My Mom had a will, but the probate clerk was very helpful with questions I had as executor.
We will do this first, thx.

lhwerdyt*1791c
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:40 pm

NotWhoYouThink wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:53 am
Who is Tom?
Should have been "Robert". I corrected the original. Sorry for the confusion.

lhwerdyt*1791c
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:46 pm

Ragnoth wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:15 pm
You're right, what I described about would be by stirpes. I'm not as familiar with "by representation." Reading on it a little, I'm not sure if the number of brothers is important. Since they are all dead, wouldn't that moot the issue? The closest thing I can find to a good explanation of what happens when there is a "missing" generation is the Colorado statutory language cited in https://definitions.uslegal.com/b/by-representation/, or the examples on http://thismatter.com/money/wills-estat ... -issue.htm .

There were five descendants total in the "niece/nephew" generation, three of which are alive (the three nieces/nephews). Based on that I think each of the thee nieces nephews would get 1/5 (20%), and the portion that would have gone to the deceased members of the generation gets passed down further.

There are now two descendants total in the "grand-niece/nephew" generation. They would split that remaining 2/5 among themselves. Regardless if they shared the same parent or not, I think this would wind up as an even split. By coincidence, that means they would each get 1/5 (20%) as well.
Thx!

lhwerdyt*1791c
Posts: 171
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:48 pm

ved wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:59 am
Did Robert change his name to Tom, and change it back to Robert ? :D
Hilarious.

lhwerdyt*1791c
Posts: 171
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:54 pm

Thank you all for responses and links. This helps a lot.

Chuffly
Posts: 36
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by Chuffly » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:31 pm

One other thing for consideration. Intestate succession for real property is controlled by the statutes of the state in which the real property is located.

Based on what you said, it looks like the only real property he owned was his house ("It is a modest estate consisting mostly of a house."). Since you said was living in Indiana at the time of his death, I would presume that this house was the house in which he was living (in other words, this wasn't an inherited property from a family member who lived in another state). If that presumption is not correct, you need to find the intestate succession statutes for the state in which his real property is located.

lhwerdyt*1791c
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:09 pm

Hi. You correctly describe the situation. Thx.

denovo
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by denovo » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:17 am

Things will go through probate court to determine everything.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln

lhwerdyt*1791c
Posts: 171
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:05 pm

denovo wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:17 am
Things will go through probate court to determine everything.
That's what is developing, now. Thank you!

lhwerdyt*1791c
Posts: 171
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:39 pm

It's been a while since I've posted so I'd like to ask the question(s) in a differently way.

Background: The deceased individual lived in Indiana had no will. His spouse, child, parents, grandparents, and siblings all predeceased him. The only related individuals surviving the decendent are his first nieces (two) and first nephew (one). There are also several surviving grand-nieces and nephews.

Here is the link to Indiana Probate Code:
https://iga.in.gov/legislative/laws/2018/ic/titles/029

Specifically:
"6) If there is no surviving issue or parent or issue of a parent, or grandparent of the intestate, then the estate of the decedent shall be divided into that number of shares equal to the sum of:
(A) the number of brothers and sisters of the decedent's parents surviving the decedent; plus
(B) the number of deceased brothers and sisters of the decedent's parents leaving issue surviving both them and the decedent;
and one (1) of the shares shall pass to each of the brothers and sisters of the decedent's parents or their respective issue per stirpes."

Questions:
- Does this mean that since the decedent has no surviving siblings, the estate is divided equally among all of his surviving nieces and nephews, including the first- and grand-nieces and grand-nephews? ("....per stirpes")

- What does this mean: "....and one (1) of the shares shall pass to each of the brothers and sisters of the decedent's parents or their respective issue per stripes."

Thanks so much. I hope the question makes better sense than the earlier post.

lhwerdyt*1791c
Posts: 171
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:44 pm

Ragnoth wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:59 pm
lhwerdyt*1791c wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:52 am
Based on the following information, who are the legal heirs and how is the estate to be legally spit among the heirs? Is this a state or federal based law? The family is in the process of hiring an estate lawyer but appreciates comments from the forum.</t>

<t>1. An uncle, Robert, recently deceased. He resided in Indiana. A will has not been found as of yet and is not expected to exist. It is a modest estate.
<br/>
2. Robert's most recent spouse, Ann, predeceased him years ago. Ann had two biological children with a previous spouse. Her previous spouse is long deceased. Her children lived with Robert and their mother, Ann, but Robert did not legally adopt the two children. These children are living. <br/>
<br/>
3. Robert had a (one) biological child with a previous spouse (before Ann); both that spouse and child predeceased him.<br/>
<br/>
4. Robert also had three brothers who all predeceased him. <br/>
<br/>
5. Brother #1 and #2 had no children. <br/>
<br/>
6. Brother #3 had three biological children who are living, making them Tom's direct niece and nephews.<br/>
<br/>
7. Brother #4 had two children who also predeceased Robert. However, the two children had two children who are living, making them Tom's grand-niece and grand-nephew.
<br/>
9. An neighbor who is not a lawyer (and who is not at all involved, here, beyond being a neighbor) said that 100% of the estate must be legally, equally split among the three living children of Robert's brother #3 because they are Robert's direct nephews and niece. He also said that the grand nephews and grand niece are not heirs because Robert's direct nephews and a niece are living. He further said that if the direct nephews and niece had predeceased Robert then the estate would go to any living surviving grand nieces and/or nephews, etc.<br/>
<br/>
10. Another person who is not a lawyer (and not otherwise not involved) said that the estate is split between Robert's direct nephew and niece (50% total among them) and Robert's grand nephews and niece (50% total among them).<br/>
<br/>
11. Both also said that the surviving children of Robert's most recent predeceased spouse do not legally inherit the estate because he never legally adopted them.
You need to look at your particular State's intestacy laws. In this case, it looks like IC 29-1-2-1(d)(4) is what is most relevant:
(d) The share of the net estate not distributable to the surviving spouse, or the entire net
estate if there is no surviving spouse, shall descend and be distributed as follows:...
(4) If there is no surviving parent or brother or sister of the intestate, then to the issue
of brothers and sisters. If the distributees described in this subdivision are all in the
same degree of kinship to the intestate, they shall take equally or, if of unequal degree,
then those of more remote degrees shall take by representation
Somebody with proper legal training can comment, but my understanding would break down as follows:

His estate would have been divided evenly among his brothers. Each of the brother's shares would then get get divided evenly among their children, and their shares among their children, etc.

In this case, there were 3 (or 4?) brothers:
-- #1 The 1 (or 2?) brothers who died childless return their shares to the pot
-- #2 dies and his 50% gets passed evenly to his three biological children (the nieces and nephews).
-- #3 dies and his 50% would get passed to his (now dead) children, and is instead passed evenly to his two grand-children (the grand-nephews).

Parse it all and you wind up with:
1/6 (16.67%) for each of the three nieces and nephews.
1/4 (25%) for each of the two grand-nephews.

This is basically the logic behind #10 above.
Thank you, I better understand the most recent quote above, now.

lhwerdyt*1791c
Posts: 171
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:45 pm

Chuffly wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:31 pm
One other thing for consideration. Intestate succession for real property is controlled by the statutes of the state in which the real property is located.

Based on what you said, it looks like the only real property he owned was his house ("It is a modest estate consisting mostly of a house."). Since you said was living in Indiana at the time of his death, I would presume that this house was the house in which he was living (in other words, this wasn't an inherited property from a family member who lived in another state). If that presumption is not correct, you need to find the intestate succession statutes for the state in which his real property is located.
It's correct. Thx.

Katietsu
Posts: 1577
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:48 am

Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by Katietsu » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:52 pm

lhwerdyt*1791c wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:39 pm
It's been a while since I've posted so I'd like to ask the question(s) in a differently way.

Background: The deceased individual lived in Indiana had no will. His spouse, child, parents, grandparents, and siblings all predeceased him. The only related individuals surviving the decendent are his first nieces (two) and first nephew (one). There are also several surviving grand-nieces and nephews.

Here is the link to Indiana Probate Code:
https://iga.in.gov/legislative/laws/2018/ic/titles/029

Specifically:
"6) If there is no surviving issue or parent or issue of a parent, or grandparent of the intestate, then the estate
of the decedent shall be divided into that number of shares equal to the sum of:
(A) the number of brothers and sisters of the decedent's parents surviving the decedent; plus
(B) the number of deceased brothers and sisters of the decedent's parents leaving issue surviving both them and the decedent;
and one (1) of the shares shall pass to each of the brothers and sisters of the decedent's parents or their respective issue per stirpes."

Questions:
- Does this mean that since the decedent has no surviving siblings, the estate is divided equally among all of his surviving nieces and nephews, including the first- and grand-nieces and grand-nephews? ("....per stirpes")

- What does this mean: "....and one (1) of the shares shall pass to each of the brothers and sisters of the decedent's parents or their respective issue per stripes."

Thanks so much. I hope the question makes better sense than the earlier post.
I don’t think this is the right section you have quoted. This section applies if there are
-no issue of the dependent (children, grandchildren etc) True
-no parent True
-no grandparent True
-no issue of a parent False
The direct nieces, nephews and great nieces and nephews would all be issue of a parent.

lhwerdyt*1791c
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:04 am

Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:22 pm

Katietsu wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:52 pm
lhwerdyt*1791c wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:39 pm
It's been a while since I've posted so I'd like to ask the question(s) in a differently way.

Background: The deceased individual lived in Indiana had no will. His spouse, child, parents, grandparents, and siblings all predeceased him. The only related individuals surviving the decendent are his first nieces (two) and first nephew (one). There are also several surviving grand-nieces and nephews.

Here is the link to Indiana Probate Code:
https://iga.in.gov/legislative/laws/2018/ic/titles/029

Specifically:
"6) If there is no surviving issue or parent or issue of a parent, or grandparent of the intestate, then the estate
of the decedent shall be divided into that number of shares equal to the sum of:
(A) the number of brothers and sisters of the decedent's parents surviving the decedent; plus
(B) the number of deceased brothers and sisters of the decedent's parents leaving issue surviving both them and the decedent;
and one (1) of the shares shall pass to each of the brothers and sisters of the decedent's parents or their respective issue per stirpes."

Questions:
- Does this mean that since the decedent has no surviving siblings, the estate is divided equally among all of his surviving nieces and nephews, including the first- and grand-nieces and grand-nephews? ("....per stirpes")

- What does this mean: "....and one (1) of the shares shall pass to each of the brothers and sisters of the decedent's parents or their respective issue per stripes."

Thanks so much. I hope the question makes better sense than the earlier post.
I don’t think this is the right section you have quoted. This section applies if there are
-no issue of the dependent (children, grandchildren etc) True
-no parent True
-no grandparent True
-no issue of a parent False
The direct nieces, nephews and great nieces and nephews would all be issue of a parent.
Hello, and thank you for so clearing showing why the section of the code doesn't apply. (I didn't understand the meaning of "issue". I also don't understand "representation".)

Can you please take a look at the Code per the link and comment on which section at least appears to apply when there is an issue of a parent via surviving direct and great nieces and nephews? And whether stirpes applies?

The underlying issue here is whether the estate is divided among surviving direct nieces and nephew, only, or all surviving direct and great nieces and nephews.

Thanks so much.

JGoneRiding
Posts: 1155
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:26 pm

Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by JGoneRiding » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:00 pm

Why have you not consulted a lawyer in Indiana and or the probate court by now?

I think only they can fully answer this question.

Ianal . I think the section you are looking at deals with cousins. Some states never get to cousins. But most likely the other says the same. You add up the total number of siblings the deceased had that had children. (Ignore any siblings that never had children and ignore weather or not said niece /nephew is still alive.)

This number is how many shares there are. Per stripes the remainders inherit. Edit: sorry it looks like it says by representation, slightly different

So I at least never understood. How many brothers did he have that had children if any sort?
Last edited by JGoneRiding on Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JGoneRiding
Posts: 1155
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:26 pm

Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by JGoneRiding » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:05 pm

(4) If there is no surviving parent or brother or sister of the intestate, then to the issue of brothers and sisters. If the distributees described in this subdivision are all in the same degree of kinship to the intestate, they shall take equally or, if of unequal degree, then those of more remote degrees shall take by representation.

Ianal. But from your link I think this is the paragraph that is the right degree of relationship

Get down to the section discussing representation and this link explains it well. The example involves children/ great grandchildren but I think gives you the correct division. https://legal-dictionary.thefreediction ... Per+Capita
Last edited by JGoneRiding on Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lhwerdyt*1791c
Posts: 171
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Re: Who are heirs? No will.

Post by lhwerdyt*1791c » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:20 pm

JGoneRiding wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:00 pm
Why have you not consulted a lawyer in Indiana and or the probate court by now?

Very fair question. It's still in probate.

I think only they can fully answer this question.

Ianal . I think the section you are looking at deals with cousins. Some states never get to cousins. But most likely the other says the same. You add up the total number of siblings the deceased had that had children. (Ignore any siblings that never had children and ignore weather or not said niece /nephew is still alive.)

This number is how many shares there are. Per stripes the remainders inherit. Edit: sorry it looks like it says by representation, slightly different

So I at least never understood. How many brothers did he have that had children if any sort?

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