Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

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monkey_business
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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by monkey_business » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:48 pm

What does tipping have to do with the wages? I am not tipping because I am responsible for the waiter's wages, I am tipping because it is an implied social contract that I accept by patronizing a restaurant. It's not illegal to not tip, it's simply in poor taste. If you object to tipping, don't go to restaurants where waiters expect tips.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by KyleAAA » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:51 pm

I usually tip in the 20-22% range but I'd probably lower my tip to 15% if I knew they were making $15/hr. For me, the fact that they aren't making a living hourly wage is the main reason I tip. If that reason changes, so will my behavior.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by goingup » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:52 pm

chevca wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:10 pm
Man, leave it to Bogleheads to make even tipping a massively complicated issue... :happy

Some Seattle restaurants have a no tip 'rule'. Go to those places.

This has been around a fair amount of time now, at least in Seattle. Have folks, OP, not adjusted yet?
I guess I'm not familiar with the "no tip" restaurants. Ivars Restaurants started out that way, and eliminated the tip line on the receipt. That lasted less than a year before they added the tip line back on the receipt. They said customers wanted to tip the servers and they felt pressure from both customers and servers to reverse course. :confused

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by chevca » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:59 pm

That could be what I'm thinking of, places tried it that way and it didn't work. I just remember hearing about it.

It's not much of a concern to me, so I don't know a list or anything.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by dumbbunny » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:06 pm

If I had continued to work this is what I would be making - $14.93 - $26.33
https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Jo ... ourly_Rate
My Associate Degree in Printing at a tech college was not free. I am not tipping anyone who makes $15/hour by taking a food order and serving it to me on a plate. They chose to be a server much as I chose to be a prepress tech.
“It’s the curse of old men to realize that in the end we control nothing." "Homeland" episode, "Gerontion"

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by CyclingDuo » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:20 pm

letsgobobby wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:44 pm
Historically waitstaff in many jurisdictions were earning something around $2.13 plus tips. This is the federal minimum wage for tipped waitstaff. Many states require a higher minimum wage than that, for example all the states on the West Coast require employers pay the full state minimum wage in addition to tips (no allowance for tip credit). States on the West Coast have higher minimum wages than the feds and than most of the rest of the country: currently $10.50-$11 per hour.

Now all three states on the West Coast have passed legislation which raises the minimum wage, in most circumstances, to around $15 per hour over several years. In Seattle and possibly other cities, it is already $15 per hour for many chain restaurant employees. It may be important for this discussion to note that the $15 minimum wage was widely advertised as a 'living wage.'

OK, now to my question.

Should I continue to tip 15% (or 20%) in these situations, or is the acceptable tip now something different (ie, lower)? Please discuss your rationale.

(This is both personal and actionable - I may change my behavior based on comments received)

I'll link one article about the matter, only because there is a quote in there by "etiquette expert Lizzie Post - great-great-granddaughter of Emily Post" - saying, "We’re giving that soft green light—a nice greenish-yellow hue to it, a very hipster color—to say we would not frown on someone going back to 15 percent or maybe a 10 percent tip."

http://archive.seattleweekly.com/food/9 ... age-change

And that is what I've been thinking of doing - around 10% if what I used to do was 15%, and 15% if what I used to do was 20%.

What say you?

(the only argument I will find utterly boring is the one that says waitstaff work hard and you can afford it, so keep tipping 20%. Booorrrring!)
Here's the chart that shows where everyone's state stands at the beginning of 2017:

Image

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/th ... rs-behind/

It appears that in states where the tipped minimum wage has risen to the same level as the general minimum wage, customers are tipping less as a result (Montana, Nevada, Minnesota, Oregon, Alaska, California, Washington). Or at least it is creating etiquette change enough that is being noticed. Mix in various cities/counties where living wage minimum wage may have risen even higher than the state - and is there any doubt this simply adds to the confusion for all of us?

We're a big advocate of the European system where gratuity is already figured into the cost, so any additional tip is a simple, small round up (example: your bill is Euro 9.55 and you round it up to Euro 10).

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by randomguy » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:40 pm

DanMahowny wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:45 pm
If wait staff is earning $15 p/hr, I would employ the following formula to determine the appropriate tip.

Amount of my check x 0 = tip amount

So if in the past you were paying say
120 for the meal (100 for the meal + 20 tip)
and now the meal is 110 bucks (they raised the prices by 10 bucks due to living wage)

you think you should get the 10 dollar savings versus the wait staff? :)

The tipping situation is always a bit odd in that the upscale waiters (or bartenders) can be making 40+/hour off tips (note not for 40 hours/week at most places) so going to a living wage with no tips is a big down grade. ON the other hand the applebees wait staff might be struggling to break 10 so it is a nice raise.

Most restaurants aren't printing money and few of the waitstaff are getting rich. I expect in the end the overall check price is going to have to stay within a couple bucks of where it was. If that is a result in service charges, tips, or higher food prices will depend on the actions of consumers and the business owners.

Short term I would adjust my tip based on prices. If the cost of the meals went up 10%, my tip would drop by close to that amount. YMMV.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by dm200 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:03 pm

he tipping situation is always a bit odd in that the upscale waiters (or bartenders) can be making 40+/hour off tips (note not for 40 hours/week at most places) so going to a living wage with no tips is a big down grade. ON the other hand the applebees wait staff might be struggling to break 10 so it is a nice raise.
My lifestyle is that I do not frequent such "upscale" places, and neither do I ever ask for or expect any specialized service.

I am very puzzled by the large tips such folks get at upscale places.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by boglegirl » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:15 pm

dm200 wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:03 pm
he tipping situation is always a bit odd in that the upscale waiters (or bartenders) can be making 40+/hour off tips (note not for 40 hours/week at most places) so going to a living wage with no tips is a big down grade. ON the other hand the applebees wait staff might be struggling to break 10 so it is a nice raise.
My lifestyle is that I do not frequent such "upscale" places, and neither do I ever ask for or expect any specialized service.

I am very puzzled by the large tips such folks get at upscale places.
A couple of years ago, a friend of ours graduated with a STEM bachelor's degree and the related high-school teaching credential. She had put herself through college by waiting tables at an expensive restaurant. When it came time for the teaching job...she did not want to take one, because it would be less $ than she was making at the restaurant.

I'm not sure what changed her mind, but she's now happily teaching. Oh, and yes, we are in one of the 7 states with no difference between minimum wage for tipped vs other employees. So she got the regular statewide minimum plus tips.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by Dottie57 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:27 pm

tanstaafl wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:20 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:17 pm
OP,

I do not change my tipping behavior just because some state claimed that they are paying a living wage. If I cannot afford to tip at certain places, I just do not go to that locations/places.

KlangFool
Thank you Klangfool for stating this better than I. I agree completely.
So agree.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by EddyB » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:33 pm

monkey_business wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:48 pm
What does tipping have to do with the wages? I am not tipping because I am responsible for the waiter's wages, I am tipping because it is an implied social contract that I accept by patronizing a restaurant. It's not illegal to not tip, it's simply in poor taste. If you object to tipping, don't go to restaurants where waiters expect tips.
Implied social contracts don't exist in a vacuum. My impression has always been that there are factors underlying the US's unusual position on tipping. When those underlying factors change, I think it's completely fair to reconsider the terms of the social contract going forward.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by CyclingDuo » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:35 pm

boglegirl wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:15 pm
I'm not sure what changed her mind, but she's now happily teaching.
That's easy.

In addition to the income from teaching, she gets health insurance, a 401k/403b plan, most likely a pension plan, and summers off (good time to practice a 3 month mini-retirement every year). All in all - most likely a better package deal (dollars and sense) than the high end waiting job. :mrgreen:

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by davegreen10 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:11 am

DanMahowny wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:45 pm
If wait staff is earning $15 p/hr, I would employ the following formula to determine the appropriate tip.

Amount of my check x 0 = tip amount
This sounds to me like the knee jerk reaction of someone who lives in a LCOL area and thinks this wage is outrageous. I live in San Francisco which is a very HCOL area. There was a recent article that said if you make less than $100k you are low income.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/0 ... ounty-hud/

That being said here are my personal feelings on the subject.
-The federal tip credit wage floor of $2.13 hasn't been raised in 23 years. It is way too low and should be indexed to inflation (as should the minimum wage)
-I feel the the tip credit wage should be somewhere between 50-65% of the regular minimum wage. So I do feel $15 is a little overpaid for tipped employees even in San Fran.

Tipping:
-I am a white collar professional but worked many years as a waiter and bartender.
-For some reason I don't understand, the "standard" for adequate tip in our society seems to have moved from 15% to 15-20, or 20% in recent years
-I tip 15% standard. I tip less for mediocre and more for exceptional service.
-However if I am in a tip credit location where they only make $2.13, I always tip 20% minimum.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by bottlecap » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:18 am

Y.A.Tittle wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:47 pm
If the waitstaff is making $15 per hour then the tip equals $0, unless service is exemplary.
I agree with this. And I used to wait tables.

JT

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by dm200 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:17 am

-For some reason I don't understand, the "standard" for adequate tip in our society seems to have moved from 15% to 15-20, or 20% in recent years
I guess I am (very) old - but I recall a 10% standard recommendation :oops:

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by pangea33 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:44 am

I used to work at a mediocre hotel restaurant as a waiter making ~$2/hr. I would typically pull $300 in tips for a 6 hour shift, or about $150 on a weeknight for 6 hours. $15/hr disincentivizes the substandard waitstaff, and can significantly hurt the servers who hustle and do a great job.

Choosing not to tip a $15/hr employee when you go to Waffle House is one thing, but it doesn't justify no tip on a $150 check at a good restaurant. There is certainly no rule that says you have to tip, but you might want to constantly switch up your restaurants if you're a non-tipper.

Non-tipping regulars are well known in the restaurant industry. Servers just play a game where they stick them with the worst servers. If you notice that the quality of your waitstaff keeps deteriorating, it's probably not because ALL of the employees are bad at their job.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by letsgobobby » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:00 am

pangea33 wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:44 am
I used to work at a mediocre hotel restaurant as a waiter making ~$2/hr. I would typically pull $300 in tips for a 6 hour shift, or about $150 on a weeknight for 6 hours. $15/hr disincentivizes the substandard waitstaff, and can significantly hurt the servers who hustle and do a great job.

Choosing not to tip a $15/hr employee when you go to Waffle House is one thing, but it doesn't justify no tip on a $150 check at a good restaurant. There is certainly no rule that says you have to tip, but you might want to constantly switch up your restaurants if you're a non-tipper.

Non-tipping regulars are well known in the restaurant industry. Servers just play a game where they stick them with the worst servers. If you notice that the quality of your waitstaff keeps deteriorating, it's probably not because ALL of the employees are bad at their job.
One takeaway this far for me has been to possibly tip differently depending on the price point of the restaurant.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by SrGrumpy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:19 am

pangea33 wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:44 am

Non-tipping regulars are well known in the restaurant industry. Servers just play a game where they stick them with the worst servers. If you notice that the quality of your waitstaff keeps deteriorating, it's probably not because ALL of the employees are bad at their job.
How does that work? Is there a blacklist? If "the quality of [my] waitstaff keeps deteriorating" I would simply go elsewhere.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by dm200 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:11 pm

$15/hr disincentivizes the substandard waitstaff, and can significantly hurt the servers who hustle and do a great job.
A "management" challenge if $15 per hour is adopted for such employers.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by flamesabers » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:01 pm

letsgobobby wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:44 pm
Should I continue to tip 15% (or 20%) in these situations, or is the acceptable tip now something different (ie, lower)? Please discuss your rationale.
I prefer to tip fixed amounts rather then a percentage. It's simpler for me as it fulfills the implied social contract without taking things to an extreme.
monkey_business wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:48 pm
What does tipping have to do with the wages? I am not tipping because I am responsible for the waiter's wages, I am tipping because it is an implied social contract that I accept by patronizing a restaurant.
My thoughts exactly.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by dm200 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:08 pm

flamesabers wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:01 pm
letsgobobby wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:44 pm
Should I continue to tip 15% (or 20%) in these situations, or is the acceptable tip now something different (ie, lower)? Please discuss your rationale.
I prefer to tip fixed amounts rather then a percentage. It's simpler for me as it fulfills the implied social contract without taking things to an extreme.
monkey_business wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:48 pm
What does tipping have to do with the wages? I am not tipping because I am responsible for the waiter's wages, I am tipping because it is an implied social contract that I accept by patronizing a restaurant.
My thoughts exactly.
Tipping based on the bill can make sense because the required income tax withholding is based on a percentage of the bill.

In my view, it has a lot to do with wage. The server may only be earning a guaranteed $2 per hour or so..

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by monkey_business » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:43 pm

dm200 wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:08 pm
flamesabers wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:01 pm
letsgobobby wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:44 pm
Should I continue to tip 15% (or 20%) in these situations, or is the acceptable tip now something different (ie, lower)? Please discuss your rationale.
I prefer to tip fixed amounts rather then a percentage. It's simpler for me as it fulfills the implied social contract without taking things to an extreme.
monkey_business wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:48 pm
What does tipping have to do with the wages? I am not tipping because I am responsible for the waiter's wages, I am tipping because it is an implied social contract that I accept by patronizing a restaurant.
My thoughts exactly.
Tipping based on the bill can make sense because the required income tax withholding is based on a percentage of the bill.

In my view, it has a lot to do with wage. The server may only be earning a guaranteed $2 per hour or so..
Waiters are guaranteed to get paid at least the minimum wage if their hourly rate + tips is below the minimum. Thus, if tipping is tied to the wage, you must be tipping because you want them to make more than the minimum. This doesn't make much sense because if that is the sole reason to tip, should we tip everyone that's making the minimum wage?

Unless the restaurant has a no tipping policy, not leaving a tip, or leaving a very low tip, regardless of the wages paid to the wait staff, is considered to be in very poor taste in the US. The restaurant's perception of such a patron would be either: a. the patron must be very unhappy with the experience (in fact, they would be prompted to ask if something was wrong), or b. is simply a bad cheapskate.

Going in and not tipping because you think the waiters are adequately paid as is, is like trying to pay only 80% of the bill because you think the menu is 20% overpriced.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by KyleAAA » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm

monkey_business wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:43 pm
Going in and not tipping because you think the waiters are adequately paid as is, is like trying to pay only 80% of the bill because you think the menu is 20% overpriced.
No it isn't, because there is no explicit quid pro quo. I tip because I believe waitstaff are underpaid. If they receive an hourly wage I don't think represents being underpaid, I will adjust my tipping accordingly. I don't tip because of a social expectation or anything of that sort.
monkey_business wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:43 pm
The restaurant's perception of such a patron would be either: a. the patron must be very unhappy with the experience (in fact, they would be prompted to ask if something was wrong), or b. is simply a bad cheapskate.
Probably, but that is not relevant to me.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by monkey_business » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:59 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm
monkey_business wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:43 pm
Going in and not tipping because you think the waiters are adequately paid as is, is like trying to pay only 80% of the bill because you think the menu is 20% overpriced.
No it isn't, because there is no explicit quid pro quo. I tip because I believe waitstaff are underpaid. If they receive an hourly wage I don't think represents being underpaid, I will adjust my tipping accordingly. I don't tip because of a social expectation or anything of that sort.
monkey_business wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:43 pm
The restaurant's perception of such a patron would be either: a. the patron must be very unhappy with the experience (in fact, they would be prompted to ask if something was wrong), or b. is simply a bad cheapskate.
Probably, but that is not relevant to me.
Do you tip everyone that you believe is underpaid? Why not?

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by remomnyc » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:03 pm

I don't consider $15/hr a living wage. I tend to tip 15%+. Assuming average service, for a $15 lunch, I'll tip $5. For a $150 dinner, I'm likely to tip 15%, but I try to avoid the fancy meals. I find it harder to enjoy a $150 meal than a $10 one.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by flamesabers » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:12 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm
I tip because I believe waitstaff are underpaid. If they receive an hourly wage I don't think represents being underpaid, I will adjust my tipping accordingly. I don't tip because of a social expectation or anything of that sort.
How do you know if your server is being underpaid? Do you ask servers about their wage?
remomnyc wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:03 pm
I don't consider $15/hr a living wage. I tend to tip 15%+. Assuming average service, for a $15 lunch, I'll tip $5. For a $150 dinner, I'm likely to tip 15%, but I try to avoid the fancy meals. I find it harder to enjoy a $150 meal than a $10 one.
What would you consider to be a living wage?

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by randomguy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:17 pm

SrGrumpy wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:19 am
pangea33 wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:44 am

Non-tipping regulars are well known in the restaurant industry. Servers just play a game where they stick them with the worst servers. If you notice that the quality of your waitstaff keeps deteriorating, it's probably not because ALL of the employees are bad at their job.
How does that work? Is there a blacklist? If "the quality of [my] waitstaff keeps deteriorating" I would simply go elsewhere.

And the staff will be happy with your choice not to come. Sounds win-win:) Part of the reason the tip is larger in absolute numbers at high end restaurants is that you tend to get better service. The waffle house waitress might be tending 15 tables while the high end one does 5.

You can argue that it is crazy the customers need to think about this stuff and I would agree. But it is the way the current system is set up. Maybe the living wage will change it. Maybe not. You can google to read the articles about the people that have tried to go nontip. The results have been mixed at best.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by furwut » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:17 pm

I don’t know if this has been mentioned yet or not but there is both a minimum wage AND a tipped wage. Unless they are doing away with tipped wage rates, which is much lower than minimum wage, the expectation is that customers are voluntarily making up the difference.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by letsgobobby » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:30 pm

furwut wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:17 pm
I don’t know if this has been mentioned yet or not but there is both a minimum wage AND a tipped wage. Unless they are doing away with tipped wage rates, which is much lower than minimum wage, the expectation is that customers are voluntarily making up the difference.
The entire thread is about the fact there is no tipped wage in the jurisdictions in question.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by TheHouse7 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:40 pm

dm200 wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:31 pm
chevca wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:10 pm
Man, leave it to Bogleheads to make even tipping a massively complicated issue... :happy

Some Seattle restaurants have a no tip 'rule'. Go to those places.

This has been around a fair amount of time now, at least in Seattle. Have folks, OP, not adjusted yet?
Hope some here adopt that rule :)
Honestly, I have always tipped 20%+; reading this thread makes me never want to eat out again. Talk about an issue that makes my head hurt. :oops:
"PSX will always go up 20%, why invest in anything else?!" -Father-in-law early retired.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by KyleAAA » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:44 pm

monkey_business wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:59 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm
monkey_business wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:43 pm
Going in and not tipping because you think the waiters are adequately paid as is, is like trying to pay only 80% of the bill because you think the menu is 20% overpriced.
No it isn't, because there is no explicit quid pro quo. I tip because I believe waitstaff are underpaid. If they receive an hourly wage I don't think represents being underpaid, I will adjust my tipping accordingly. I don't tip because of a social expectation or anything of that sort.
monkey_business wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:43 pm
The restaurant's perception of such a patron would be either: a. the patron must be very unhappy with the experience (in fact, they would be prompted to ask if something was wrong), or b. is simply a bad cheapskate.
Probably, but that is not relevant to me.
Do you tip everyone that you believe is underpaid? Why not?
Yes, regardless of occupation.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by stoptothink » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:25 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:44 pm
monkey_business wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:59 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm
monkey_business wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:43 pm
Going in and not tipping because you think the waiters are adequately paid as is, is like trying to pay only 80% of the bill because you think the menu is 20% overpriced.
No it isn't, because there is no explicit quid pro quo. I tip because I believe waitstaff are underpaid. If they receive an hourly wage I don't think represents being underpaid, I will adjust my tipping accordingly. I don't tip because of a social expectation or anything of that sort.
monkey_business wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:43 pm
The restaurant's perception of such a patron would be either: a. the patron must be very unhappy with the experience (in fact, they would be prompted to ask if something was wrong), or b. is simply a bad cheapskate.
Probably, but that is not relevant to me.
Do you tip everyone that you believe is underpaid? Why not?
Yes, regardless of occupation.
Maybe my sarcasm meter is broken because I'm having a very difficult time getting a read on this response. That's an unavoidable question for anybody who suggests they tip because they believe servers are underpaid, and I have a difficult time taking anybody seriously who says they tip everybody they believe is underpaid. At they very least, you really have no idea what some people are paid. The entire restaurant industry and its associated norms is a mystery to me, so I'll just continue to avoid it.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by KyleAAA » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:21 am

stoptothink wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:25 pm
Maybe my sarcasm meter is broken because I'm having a very difficult time getting a read on this response. That's an unavoidable question for anybody who suggests they tip because they believe servers are underpaid, and I have a difficult time taking anybody seriously who says they tip everybody they believe is underpaid. At they very least, you really have no idea what some people are paid. The entire restaurant industry and its associated norms is a mystery to me, so I'll just continue to avoid it.
I was not being sarcastic. I do tip if I feel they are underpaid and they wouldn't be insulted by the offer. To your point, for most occupations I have no idea what their wage is so I can't make a determination. In the restaurant and related services industries, however, I DO know.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by stoptothink » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:37 am

KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:21 am
stoptothink wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:25 pm
Maybe my sarcasm meter is broken because I'm having a very difficult time getting a read on this response. That's an unavoidable question for anybody who suggests they tip because they believe servers are underpaid, and I have a difficult time taking anybody seriously who says they tip everybody they believe is underpaid. At they very least, you really have no idea what some people are paid. The entire restaurant industry and its associated norms is a mystery to me, so I'll just continue to avoid it.
I was not being sarcastic. I do tip if I feel they are underpaid and they wouldn't be insulted by the offer. To your point, for most occupations I have no idea what their wage is so I can't make a determination. In the restaurant and related services industries, however, I DO know.
So, is the person who bags your groceries, serves your child lunch at school, does basic maintenance on your car, stocked the shelves at the store you just visited...underpaid in your eyes (as it is very likely they are making less per hour than the person who sat you last time you went out)? Your last statement is totally upside down, you know within a pretty strict range what those others are making, but by the very nature of the system you truly don't have a clue what restaurant employees are making. Does anybody who leaves my sister a tip for seating them and handling their bill at her restaurant know she is already making above minimum wage and usually pulls in $30-$35/hr when tips are included? I strongly doubt it. Of all the cultural norms I don't understand, restaurants (our fascination with them, why their employees are on a totally different compensation system then everybody else, tipping...) are at the very top of the list. Like other services, when I don't agree and don't understand, I simply don't take part.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by itstoomuch » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:07 am

yes I still appreciate the service and tip at 20%. Living in a HCOL areas, does not mean that a "Living Wage" job, is a living wage.
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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by pangea33 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:48 am

SrGrumpy wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:19 am
pangea33 wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:44 am

Non-tipping regulars are well known in the restaurant industry. Servers just play a game where they stick them with the worst servers. If you notice that the quality of your waitstaff keeps deteriorating, it's probably not because ALL of the employees are bad at their job.
How does that work? Is there a blacklist? If "the quality of [my] waitstaff keeps deteriorating" I would simply go elsewhere.
I was a 20 year old living the "food service industry" lifestyle. Long term strategies and focus on the success of the business weren't a big priority at the time. I just know we'd be conveniently unavailable in the rotation when the non-tippers showed up.

Management would definitely have a problem with losing anybody's business. Waitstaff could not possibly care less if the non-tippers start going somewhere else. It's an uncomfortable truth, but a truth nonetheless.

I'm not trying to get into a socio-political debate, so I'll just suggest $15/hr minimum wage will have the unintended consequence of pushing good waitstaff out of the business. My time as a server caused me to become a GROSS overtipper. So instead of my normal 25%, I'll probably only tip 15% to people getting $15. I've grown accustomed to building the tip into my expectations and eat out so infrequently that it does not impact me financially.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by KyleAAA » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:41 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:37 am
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:21 am
stoptothink wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:25 pm
Maybe my sarcasm meter is broken because I'm having a very difficult time getting a read on this response. That's an unavoidable question for anybody who suggests they tip because they believe servers are underpaid, and I have a difficult time taking anybody seriously who says they tip everybody they believe is underpaid. At they very least, you really have no idea what some people are paid. The entire restaurant industry and its associated norms is a mystery to me, so I'll just continue to avoid it.
I was not being sarcastic. I do tip if I feel they are underpaid and they wouldn't be insulted by the offer. To your point, for most occupations I have no idea what their wage is so I can't make a determination. In the restaurant and related services industries, however, I DO know.
So, is the person who bags your groceries, serves your child lunch at school, does basic maintenance on your car, stocked the shelves at the store you just visited...underpaid in your eyes (as it is very likely they are making less per hour than the person who sat you last time you went out)? Your last statement is totally upside down, you know within a pretty strict range what those others are making, but by the very nature of the system you truly don't have a clue what restaurant employees are making. Does anybody who leaves my sister a tip for seating them and handling their bill at her restaurant know she is already making above minimum wage and usually pulls in $30-$35/hr when tips are included? I strongly doubt it. Of all the cultural norms I don't understand, restaurants (our fascination with them, why their employees are on a totally different compensation system then everybody else, tipping...) are at the very top of the list. Like other services, when I don't agree and don't understand, I simply don't take part.
I bag my groceries myself, don't have a child, and don't interact with the people who stock my shelves. But no, I don't believe they are underpaid in the way my server is, so I wouldn't tip them if I had the opportunity. If I knew my server made $35/hr 40 hours per week I wouldn't tip so generously, but I'm pretty certain they don't.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by flamesabers » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:48 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:41 pm
I bag my groceries myself, don't have a child, and don't interact with the people who stock my shelves. But no, I don't believe they are underpaid in the way my server is, so I wouldn't tip them if I had the opportunity. If I knew my server made $35/hr 40 hours per week I wouldn't tip so generously, but I'm pretty certain they don't.
How do you know how much your servers are paid? Do you ask them?

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by Jags4186 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:23 pm

I don't tip because I think servers are underpaid. I tip because it is a social norm. When I go to most European countries I don't tip. It is not a social norm. It's not my job to determine whether someone is paid appropriately or not unless I'm their employer.

Quite frankly I think it's complete garbage that servers are allowed an alternative minimum wage in most of the country. The government should plug that hole up, make them paid real wages, and collect tax revenue on proper income. Prices on the menu would reflect what your meal actually costs. I find it hard to believe servers report all of their tips. I don't blame them for not doing so based on the way to government wrote the rules for them.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by jalbert » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:56 pm

In the US, choose restaurants and menu items where the cost plus tip fits your budget or cook at home. Waitstaff generally aren't getting stock options or matching 401k contributions. One waiter I know funds an IRA with tips, and otherwise would not have any retirement savings.
Risk is not a guarantor of return.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by KyleAAA » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:05 pm

flamesabers wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:48 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:41 pm
I bag my groceries myself, don't have a child, and don't interact with the people who stock my shelves. But no, I don't believe they are underpaid in the way my server is, so I wouldn't tip them if I had the opportunity. If I knew my server made $35/hr 40 hours per week I wouldn't tip so generously, but I'm pretty certain they don't.
How do you know how much your servers are paid? Do you ask them?
They earn the tipped minimum in my area, so I know with a high degree of certainty. Or do you mean "how do you know how much they make AFTER tips?" I don't, but that's irrelevant. They make that money BECAUSE we tip, which is why I do.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by EnjoyIt » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:21 pm

I usually tip 20% on the after tax price rounded up to an even number if the service was reasonable. I tip 10-15% for substandard service. If the service is the atrocious I will tip $1 and write a comment as to why. I have not had to do that in at least 7-8 years. I think I tip relatively well and do so because I know they are not making much money and am happy to increase their take home since I can afford it otherwise I would not be eating at those establishments.

Knowing now that some locals have a better wage I may lower these percentages. Maybe 15% for reasonable service and 5-10% for substandard service. I expect to be in Washington state in a few months and will see what happens. I may even ask some of the servers now what their experience has been with the wage change.

In reality I disagree with our tipping culture in the US. Service should be part of the price and not expected from a tip later. If the service is amazing then a tip is in order and only on amazing service. I never go to a restaurant a second time once I realize gratuity is included in the bill except maybe for a large party. Usually they add 15-20% before tax which is less than what I would give and I do not add extra on principle.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by dbr » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:42 pm

EnjoyIt wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:21 pm
In reality I disagree with our tipping culture in the US.
How do you disagree with a culture? I think you can not like it or wish it were otherwise. Finding an actionable process to change a culture is a tall order.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by steadyeddy » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:43 pm

My area doesn't have a separate tipped wage and just passed a $15/hr wage. In grad school, I served tables at an applebee-type restaurant and averaged just under $30/hr. I have several friends that continue to serve tables on the weekends in nicer places and report average hourly wages of around $60/hr. About five years ago, my wife was earning $13.50/hr in a high-skill job with a masters degree.

I have always tipped a flat 20% without an fluctuation based on service, but the $15/hr wage left me with the same questions as letsgobobby. Why do we as a society want to pay a server $65/hr and a cook, cashier, or dishwasher only $15? In my mind they are all low-skill, high-stress jobs. The only thing substantially different is the pay.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by steadyeddy » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:44 pm

dbr wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:42 pm
EnjoyIt wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:21 pm
In reality I disagree with our tipping culture in the US.
How do you disagree with a culture? I think you can not like it or wish it were otherwise. Finding an actionable process to change a culture is a tall order.
But we all changed from a 10% tip to a 20% tip over time. Can't we as a culture make the same change in reverse?
Last edited by steadyeddy on Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by EnjoyIt » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:52 pm

dbr wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:42 pm
EnjoyIt wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:21 pm
In reality I disagree with our tipping culture in the US.
How do you disagree with a culture? I think you can not like it or wish it were otherwise. Finding an actionable process to change a culture is a tall order.
I'm not sure I understand your question. I disagree with the American culture of tipping. I think the price of the services should be included in the purchase price and expected as an add-on later on to the bill as a form of tip. Then maybe tip if the service was exceptional. That is what I disagree with. But, because I live in America I accept that culture and I think I tip relatively well.

Maybe I can try and answer the question you may be asking. If many in Washington State felt that the increase in a servers wages is enough so that they don't have to tip or they now require a smaller tip and act on that thinking then the culture would in effect change by those actions.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by dbr » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:01 pm

EnjoyIt wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:52 pm
dbr wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:42 pm
EnjoyIt wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:21 pm
In reality I disagree with our tipping culture in the US.
How do you disagree with a culture? I think you can not like it or wish it were otherwise. Finding an actionable process to change a culture is a tall order.
I'm not sure I understand your question. I disagree with the American culture of tipping. I think the price of the services should be included in the purchase price and expected as an add-on later on to the bill as a form of tip. Then maybe tip if the service was exceptional. That is what I disagree with. But, because I live in America I accept that culture and I think I tip relatively well.

Maybe I can try and answer the question you may be asking. If many in Washington State felt that the increase in a servers wages is enough so that they don't have to tip or they now require a smaller tip and act on that thinking then the culture would in effect change by those actions.
A culture is not a decision or a regulation or a policy made by an executive, a legislature, a business owner, a friend of yours or some person or entity with which you can disagree. If we are not happy with tipping culture it might be possible to pass a law or regulation to set things straight, but that is not disagreeing with a culture; it is falling back on law to try to control behavior that one wants to change. A person might try to persuade restaurant owners to set a policy of some kind about tips. This does exist some places. But tipping is not a policy as of now.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by fareastwarriors » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:04 pm

It feels like every few months we get another thread on tipping.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by flamesabers » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:24 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:05 pm
They earn the tipped minimum in my area, so I know with a high degree of certainty. Or do you mean "how do you know how much they make AFTER tips?" I don't, but that's irrelevant. They make that money BECAUSE we tip, which is why I do.
I was asking about pre-tip income. How do you know that your servers aren't being paid more then the tipped minimum wage in your area? As far as I know, there is no law prohibiting restaurants from paying their servers a pre-tip wage of $15 an hour.

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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by EnjoyIt » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:35 pm

dbr wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:01 pm
EnjoyIt wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:52 pm
dbr wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:42 pm
EnjoyIt wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:21 pm
In reality I disagree with our tipping culture in the US.
How do you disagree with a culture? I think you can not like it or wish it were otherwise. Finding an actionable process to change a culture is a tall order.
I'm not sure I understand your question. I disagree with the American culture of tipping. I think the price of the services should be included in the purchase price and expected as an add-on later on to the bill as a form of tip. Then maybe tip if the service was exceptional. That is what I disagree with. But, because I live in America I accept that culture and I think I tip relatively well.

Maybe I can try and answer the question you may be asking. If many in Washington State felt that the increase in a servers wages is enough so that they don't have to tip or they now require a smaller tip and act on that thinking then the culture would in effect change by those actions.
A culture is not a decision or a regulation or a policy made by an executive, a legislature, a business owner, a friend of yours or some person or entity with which you can disagree. If we are not happy with tipping culture it might be possible to pass a law or regulation to set things straight, but that is not disagreeing with a culture; it is falling back on law to try to control behavior that one wants to change. A person might try to persuade restaurant owners to set a policy of some kind about tips. This does exist some places. But tipping is not a policy as of now.
I am really not sure what you are disagreeing with.

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