403(b) Option Help

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buccimane
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403(b) Option Help

Post by buccimane » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:52 am

Hello All;

I have just begun work at a new position, and would like to enroll in their 403(b) plan. I am 23 years old, and this will be my main investment vehicle moving forward. However, unlike my previous 401k I received at my old employer, this plan is laid out differently (I did not contribute because I knew I wasn't going to stay long). Specifically, there are no fees listed, no breakdown of investment portfolios- really nothing. Instead there are 2 sections labeled and listed as follows, with an option to add X amount of dollars to each-

Employee Voluntary
AXA Equitable Life Insurance Company
Great American Life Ins Company
Lincoln Financial Group
Lincoln Investment Planning
Metropolitan Life Insurance Company
SunAmerica Mutual Funds
Transamerica Retirement Solutions
USAA Investment Management
VALIC
Roth After Tax
"(Same list of investments)

I am getting fairly lost looking into all of these companies.. It seems ridiculous and I am in quite over my head researching 9 companies and all of their plans from scratch. I expected USAA to have decent plans, but I looked at their Target Retirement 2060 Fund(URSIX) and the gross expense ration is 1.35%, with a category average expense ratio of .88%.. I'd appreciate any and all help in dissecting this situation. Whether it be knowledge of one of these companies, or just terminology to look for when selecting. My desired allocation is between 80/20 and 90/10.

Thank you all for your help :confused

Note to moderators: I will be sending a separate PM, but I accidentally reset my password on my previous account and the email I used to register is my old work email, which has been closed. I would appreciate advice on how to unlock that account as well. Thanks!
Last edited by buccimane on Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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LadyGeek
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by LadyGeek » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:20 pm

buccimane wrote:Note to moderators: I will be sending a separate PM, but I accidentally reset my password on my previous account and the email I used to register is my old work email, which has been closed. I would appreciate advice on how to unlock that account as well. Thanks!

Welcome (again)! I sent you a PM.
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BashDash
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by BashDash » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Boy am I jealous of your age and knowledge in looking into this so early. You came to the right place. I waited 14 years to investigate the fees but consider myself lucky to have come here and gotten help. My district has 18 providers! What state are you in? Do you have access to a 457 plan? Ny has an excellent one. I believe one of those Lincoln providers has a self directed option. I'm sure their reps will act like it doesn't exist. Search Lincoln self directed on the boglehead site. Also check out 403bwise.com

retiredjg
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by retiredjg » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:06 pm

They don't make it easy. The list you gave is a list of vendors. Each vendor will have at least one plan to look at, maybe more. You have to look at each plan and find the cheapest 2 or 3 funds. Add the expense ratio (ER) of the best funds to whatever extra fees the vendor adds on....and come up with the best overall option. Don't be fooled by a plan that offers low ER funds with high plan fees added on. It may not be the best choice.

This is all a royal pain in the you know where, but finding the best option is worth the time and effort to learn something about it and get the job done. You will end up with more money.

Employees in some jobs with lists like these can also use a different plan - a state sponsored 457b plan. So if you are a teacher, you want to explore that. If you work for a hospital, it probably does not apply to you.

Good luck. :happy

KESP
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by KESP » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:13 pm

I would eliminate AXA and Metropolitan, that will save you a little time. I would also recommend 403bwise. You are so smart to think about this at 23. I didn't figure it out until I was nearly 60! :beer

krow36
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by krow36 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:55 pm

From the list of vendors your employer supplied you, it looks like you are probably employed by a K-12 school district. Is that the case? You need to choose only one from the list, and I don’t see any that are known to be low-cost. Unlike 401k plans, your employer has not vetted those providers, other than to sign an agreement to allow them to sell their wares to the employees.

California has a unique law that requires 403b providers to list their offerings with all fees disclosed on the 403bcompare.com website which is maintained by the California State Teachers Retirement System (CalSTRS). This website is an excellent source of information about a plan’s fees in other states as well, because usually the same generic plans are offered nationally. Unfortunately 403bcompare has just been revised and there seems to be some errors in some provider’s information. You should confirm the expenses of any provider’s funds before signing up with them.
USAA may be your best choice. https://www.403bcompare.com/products/17 ... entoptions

The following USAA funds look like possibilities worth checking out:
USAA Target Retirement 20XX, ER 0.03% to 0.05% (I think these ERs are probably incorrect as M* lists their ER as >0.8)
USAA S&P 500 Member, ER 0.25% (At least this ER looks more realistic and agrees with the USAA website)

I don’t find a great bond fund, maybe you could use some combination of these? Maybe I missed something better? The ERs check out with M*.
USAA Intermediate-term Bond USIBX ER 0.62% is mostly (85%) corporate bonds
USAA Short-term Bond USSBX ER 0.61% is 58% corporate bonds
USAA Government Securities USGNX ER 0.51% is mostly mortgage backed securities

The 403bcompare info on the USAA 403b indicates there is no annual fee or charge, which is unusual? You should check that out with USAA.

krow36
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by krow36 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:23 am

retiredjg's advice to consider a 457 instead of (or in addition to?) a 403b is very good. The states listed in this link have 457 plans that are low-cost and available to K-12 employees. The list is incomplete, but could save you some time.
http://board.403bwise.com/index.php?showtopic=6130

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buccimane
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by buccimane » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:27 am

krow36 wrote:From the list of vendors your employer supplied you, it looks like you are probably employed by a K-12 school district. Is that the case? You need to choose only one from the list, and I don’t see any that are known to be low-cost.

...The 403bcompare info on the USAA 403b indicates there is no annual fee or charge, which is unusual? You should check that out with USAA.



Thank you for this. Yes I am employed by a K-12 in New Jersey. I will definitely check that website out.

BashDash wrote:My district has 18 providers! What state are you in? Do you have access to a 457 plan? Ny has an excellent one. I believe one of those Lincoln providers has a self directed option. I'm sure their reps will act like it doesn't exist. Search Lincoln self directed on the boglehead site. Also check out 403bwise.com


I am in New Jersey, and I'm not entirely sure if we have access to a 457 plan so that is something I will get more information on.


Note to all: Apparently a representative from whichever company I choose has to physically come into the office in order to select a plan :oops: , so I absolutely need to have a specific plan selected and make it a point to not consider a deviation to the plan.. Thank you all for this help!
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

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buccimane
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by buccimane » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:47 am

KESP wrote:I would eliminate AXA and Metropolitan, that will save you a little time. I would also recommend 403bwise. You are so smart to think about this at 23. I didn't figure it out until I was nearly 60! :beer



I would be drowning in fees with the majority of people had it not been for John Oliver and his retirement segment. Life changing advice from an unlikely source. After watching the segment, I googled index funds/vanguard and came across Bogleheads, and now have been a daily reader for nearly a year. :beer
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

TopplingGoliath
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by TopplingGoliath » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:03 am

I don't have a lot of assistance to provide, but I just wanted to say I feel your pain.

Fortunately(?) I only have four providers to wrestle information out of, but they do make it difficult.

My district provided me with email addresses of reps at each company, so that helped. Then, I just sent the same email to each provider, clearly stating that I have all the information I need except for a list of available funds with expense ratios, and detail on whatever recordkeeping fees they tack on.

Many will try to call you, claiming it's "easier to explain over the phone" (hint: it's not). Some will want to meet in person. Some will just send the list of funds. Just be firm that you have a lot of research to do and not much time to do it in, and that email is the only option for now. Bummer about having to meet in person to set it up, but it will help you resist any upselling if you already know which fund(s) you want to go with.

From there it was just making a spreadsheet to add up the fees and make it easy to compare my options. (Side note: Google Sheets makes it easy because you can enter just a fund's ticker symbol, and using formulas you can auto populate the name of the fund and expense ratio.)

I agree with asking your district about a 457 plan as well. My district has contribution matching for 403(b), but not 457. So, I contribute to the 403(b) just to meet the match, and put the rest in cheap Vanguard funds in my 457.

:sharebeer

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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by sschullo » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:16 am

TopplingGoliath wrote:I don't have a lot of assistance to provide, but I just wanted to say I feel your pain.

Fortunately(?) I only have four providers to wrestle information out of, but they do make it difficult.

I just sent the same email to each provider, clearly stating that I have all the information I need except for a list of available funds with expense ratios, and detail on whatever recordkeeping fees they tack on.

Many will try to call you, claiming it's "easier to explain over the phone" (hint: it's not). Some will want to meet in person.

Just be firm...
:sharebeer


Great advice Toppling. Never meet the sales force in person, and never, I repeat, never underestimate the persuasive power of the TSA annuity monopoly sales force. Get this story: the chief of police for our school district told our advisory committee that some of his officers came to him asking how can they get rid of this "guy" who just will not leave! This "guy" was an annuity salesman. If school police officers cannot shake them off, how can a 20-something teacher (or most teachers) get rid of them?
Public School K-12 Educators: "Ask NOT what your annuity sales person can do for you, ask what you can do to be a Do-It-Yourselfer (DIY)."

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Clark & Addison
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by Clark & Addison » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:31 am

I assume that since you're asking about 403b advice that the Roth you mentioned is for a Roth 403b, but I want to give you another heads up. I am a K12 teacher too, and when I was your age I had my Roth IRA with one of the insurance companies that came and visited the school. I was not aware of what a terrible idea this was when I was 22. If any of these salespeople try to get you to open a Roth IRA with them, run the other direction as they will put your Roth IRA into a high expense annuity. Congratulations that you have found this site at your age and are asking the right questions now.

krow36
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by krow36 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:31 am

You may be in luck with Lincoln Investment Planning. They have offered a very low cost 403b plan to several posters and NJ posters seems to have an advantage. They call it Lincoln Retirement SOLUTIONS Participant-Directed Platform.
Check out this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=175295
Lincoln doesn’t have anything on this plan on the internet and you need to call a regional Lincoln office to get a PDF of the application form. Once you have the application form, everything is done over the internet. You can use Vanguard Admiral class index funds. The only additional cost is an annual fee of $60. This option does not involve a local rep.

I haven't heard of a low-cost state 457 plan for NJ teachers, unfortunately.

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facepalm
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by facepalm » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:11 am

buccimane wrote:Hello All;

I have just began work at a new position, and would like to enroll in their 403(b) plan. I am 23 years old, and this will be my main investment vehicle moving forward. However, unlike my previous 401k I received at my old employer, this plan is laid out differently (I did not contribute because I knew I wasn't going to stay long). Specifically, there are no fees listed, no breakdown of investment portfolios, really nothing. Instead there are 2 sections labeled and listed as follows, with an option to add X amount of dollars to each-

Employee Voluntary
AXA Equitable Life Insurance Company
Great American Life Ins Company
...


I'm also an educator, employed by a district in CA. I got suckered into investing with Great American (GALIC) about ten years ago, back when my district offered fewer options for 403(b) accounts. Rep came out and made a great pitch. My money ended up going into a high fee, low return TSA. I stopped contributions after a year. I'd personally avoid them and any other insurance company that only offer annuities. Any provider that offers actual mutual funds (as another poster pointed out) would be far better.

My district offered two 457(b) plans, one through a traditional investment firm (which carried tons of fees) or one that the state offers, managed by VOYA. While most state employees qualify for 457(b) plans according to the IRS, you are really at the mercy of your district's benefits coordinator.

And thanks for your question; it actually motivated me to register on the forum and post!

MNGopher
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by MNGopher » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:19 pm

Since none of the companies on your districts approved vendor list are all that great as far as expense ratio's, another thing I would look at is the length of the surrender penalty period (and the amount of the penalty if you want to transfer to a different company). It is likely that at some point in the future your district may add better choices to their list, and you want to make it easy to make an exchange/transfer. For years I only had expensive variable annuity options like yours, then 2 years ago they quietly added Vanguard and Fidelity to the approved list. I had a 15 year surrender period on my original annuity with a 5% early withdrawal penalty, which I was only recently able to exchange to Vanguard without the penalty.

It's still worth it save tax deferred in one of your current options, but leave yourself an exit strategy. :happy

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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by AustenNut » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:41 pm

MNGopher wrote:Since none of the companies on your districts approved vendor list are all that great as far as expense ratio's, another thing I would look at is the length of the surrender penalty period (and the amount of the penalty if you want to transfer to a different company). It is likely that at some point in the future your district may add better choices to their list, and you want to make it easy to make an exchange/transfer. For years I only had expensive variable annuity options like yours, then 2 years ago they quietly added Vanguard and Fidelity to the approved list. I had a 15 year surrender period on my original annuity with a 5% early withdrawal penalty, which I was only recently able to exchange to Vanguard without the penalty.

It's still worth it save tax deferred in one of your current options, but leave yourself an exit strategy. :happy


Do all 403/457 plans offer this? My impression was that severance with the employer was the only way to roll over the account. If that's not the case, things are looking better.

Buccimane, great job looking into all of this now. I'd take a closer look at Lincoln. When I was investigating a similar list in my district, that one had an option to select funds. I think it was something like an annual $25 fee for each fund you wanted to participate in, plus an additional $50 annual fee, or something like that. Communication with my local rep wasn't great and I ended up going with the main provider (Voya) for my district because of some other reasons. But good luck with your choice!

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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by MNGopher » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:53 pm

AustenNut wrote:
MNGopher wrote:Since none of the companies on your districts approved vendor list are all that great as far as expense ratio's, another thing I would look at is the length of the surrender penalty period (and the amount of the penalty if you want to transfer to a different company). It is likely that at some point in the future your district may add better choices to their list, and you want to make it easy to make an exchange/transfer. For years I only had expensive variable annuity options like yours, then 2 years ago they quietly added Vanguard and Fidelity to the approved list. I had a 15 year surrender period on my original annuity with a 5% early withdrawal penalty, which I was only recently able to exchange to Vanguard without the penalty.

It's still worth it save tax deferred in one of your current options, but leave yourself an exit strategy. :happy


Do all 403/457 plans offer this? My impression was that severance with the employer was the only way to roll over the account. If that's not the case, things are looking better.

Buccimane, great job looking into all of this now. I'd take a closer look at Lincoln. When I was investigating a similar list in my district, that one had an option to select funds. I think it was something like an annual $25 fee for each fund you wanted to participate in, plus an additional $50 annual fee, or something like that. Communication with my local rep wasn't great and I ended up going with the main provider (Voya) for my district because of some other reasons. But good luck with your choice!


Mine was classified as an exchange that went into a 403B(7) at Vanguard. I wouldn't have been allowed to transfer it to another type of account before separating from my employer.

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AustenNut
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by AustenNut » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:18 pm

Thanks, MNGopher.

GrandMasterBlaster
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by GrandMasterBlaster » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:26 pm

Lincoln Investment features an employee-directed option with Vanguard plus a small fee that seems pretty reasonable. We are going with the 457b instead, because NY has a good deferred compensation plan, so that is worth looking into, as well. You have to press the people from Lincoln a bit about the self-directed option, but it's there.

krow36
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by krow36 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:35 am

In the past, Lincoln Investment has offered a plan called Retirement Solutions Premier with Investor class Vanguard funds, an annual fee of $35 and a Management/Wrap fee of 0.90%. Last year they increased the annual fee to $60 and the Mgmt/Wrap fee to 1.25%.

Lincoln Retirement SOLUTIONS Participant-Directed plan allows the use of Vanguard’s Admiral class funds, has an annual fee of $60, and charges no Mgmt/Wrap fee. There is no rep involved in this plan.

giesen5
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by giesen5 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:42 am

Absolutely look into the 457 route. My wife is a teacher and the 403b options were atrocious, similar to yours. We fund her 457 plan and do not do anything with the 403. She is a teacher in Washington state.

krow36
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by krow36 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:00 am

giesen5 wrote:Absolutely look into the 457 route. My wife is a teacher and the 403b options were atrocious, similar to yours. We fund her 457 plan and do not do anything with the 403. She is a teacher in Washington state.

Yes WA has a great state 457 plan. NJ does not. Here's an incomplete list of state 457 plans available to teachers.
http://board.403bwise.com/index.php?showtopic=6130

giesen5
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by giesen5 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:28 am

That is a great link.

And bummer about NJ plan.

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buccimane
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by buccimane » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:50 am

giesen5 wrote:Absolutely look into the 457 route. My wife is a teacher and the 403b options were atrocious, similar to yours. We fund her 457 plan and do not do anything with the 403. She is a teacher in Washington state.


Our 403b has more offerings (although they both have Lincoln Investment), so I googled 457 vs 403b and it looks like 457 is a better option because you can withdraw prior to the age of 59.5 without penalties. If you (or someone else) could confirm that this is the main advantage, or steer me in the right direction of which one to choose I'd appreciate it. I only plan on funding one currently, and do not see myself funding both any time soon.
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retiredjg
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by retiredjg » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:00 am

Well, so far, I don't think there is any evidence that there is a 457b plan available to you. Have you found one?

This is not something you can just open up somewhere. It has to be offered through an employer. School district employees can sometimes use a state sponsored 457b plan.

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buccimane
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by buccimane » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:02 am

retiredjg wrote:Well, so far, I don't think there is any evidence that there is a 457b plan available to you. Have you found one?

This is not something you can just open up somewhere. It has to be offered through an employer. School district employees can sometimes use a state sponsored 457b plan.



Yes, I forgot to add that after the fact. There is a 457 offered, with about half of the service providers available. However, Lincoln Investment Group is one of them.
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retiredjg
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by retiredjg » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:10 am

All things being equal, if there is no match and if the choices are just as good in the 457b, I'd go with the 457b (after making sure it is a governmental plan, not a non-governmental plan). Generally school districts have governmental plans, but if you are a private school, maybe not.

If you can get better choices (total cost, including all the add on plan fees) in the 403b, use that. It's all pretty much about cost.

GrandMasterBlaster
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by GrandMasterBlaster » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:00 am

Buccimane,

As an additional data point, we had very similar options and ended up going with the 457b because of slightly lower costs and the advantage of being able to withdraw early with no penalty.

krow36
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by krow36 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:32 pm

The Lincoln Retirement SOLUTIONS Participant-Directed Platform can be used for either or both a 403b or a 457, either traditional or Roth. So if Lincoln Investments is on the district’s 457 list, you can choose. I believe a single $60 fee would cover all 4 possible accounts. I agree that the 457 has advantages over the 403b. :happy

Vanguard requires a 10k balance in their Individual class funds before converting it to their lower ER Admiral index funds. However a Vanguard 403b only allows the use of Individual class funds. This is because of the extra cost of administering a 403b account. When another financial institution administers the 403b account and uses Vanguard funds, Admiral class funds do not require a 10k balance. This is the case with Aspire, Security Benefit Direct Invest and with this Lincoln DIY plan.

krow36
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by krow36 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:44 pm

buccimane, because you work for a K-12 district in NJ, the Lincoln Investment SOLUTIONS Participant-Directed Platform is an option for you. Because Lincoln Investment is on both your district’s 403b and 457 lists, you can indeed use the 457 plan. I agree with retiredjg the 457 is a better choice than the 403b given there’s no match in either plan.
buccimane wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:27 am
Note to all: Apparently a representative from whichever company I choose has to physically come into the office in order to select a plan :oops: , so I absolutely need to have a specific plan selected and make it a point to not consider a deviation to the plan.. Thank you all for this help!

Although the local reps of all the companies on the provider list will be involved with any plan you choose, this Lincoln Investment DIY plan is an exception. It is designed to bypass the local rep and avoid that expense.

It’s difficult to find out about the DIY Lincoln Investment plan except by reading over their application form which you have to get from a Lincoln Investment regional office (via emails), not from a local rep. It is an internet based plan although posters report that there is good telephone support once you are in the plan. I can email you a link to an out-of-date form (the annual fees have been increased) so you can look it over and decide whether you want to pursue it. I’ll send you a PM.

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buccimane
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Re: 403(b) Option Help

Post by buccimane » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:49 pm

krow36 wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:44 pm
I can email you a link to an out-of-date form (the annual fees have been increased) so you can look it over and decide whether you want to pursue it. I’ll send you a PM.

Thank you! I'll wait for the PM :sharebeer
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

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