New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

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jhfenton
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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by jhfenton » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:04 pm

I've exchanged numerous emails with Lively support. I've verified the ACH microdeposits, and my account is live. I e-signed the trustee-to-trustee transfer form that they filled out with information I gave them. And they faxed it to my current custodian.

There's a separate step to create the linked TD Ameritrade brokerage account, but I don't want to do that until my HSA money is at least on the way. (I don't know when they start charging the $2.50/month.)

You can tell that they are still a small operation at this point, and that they're early in the game, but I like the feel and focus. They are very easy to work with. There's a chance they don't make it, but at this point, that's possible with a lot of the HSA investment providers. Many of them could decide to exit the market tomorrow.

(One note: they do not yet have the website set up to handle inbound ACH rollovers automatically. You have to talk to them and have them code it correctly on the back end. But I decided to do the trustee-to-trustee transfer, both to see how long it takes, and to avoid any chance of a $45K mistake by either custodian. I'm going to just shift $43K in bond funds to equities tomorrow to restore my allocation to baseline while the check is in the mail. If it takes a month, I lose $100 or less in bond yield.)

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by indexfundfan » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:39 pm

^ I am watching with interest to see how Lively turns out. I'm sure as a startup, Lively can and would respond very quickly to any feedback for improvement.

I will still stick with Saturna for now. My timing for starting a HSA account was horrible because I mailed in the application to Saturna the week before I learnt about Lively. So I don't get a chance to decide between the two. In any case, I am planning to make one transaction a year at Saturna, so it would still be cheaper than Lively.
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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by adman_c » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:49 pm

I just opened an account with Lively after learning that Alliant Credit Union, my current HSA provider, was getting out of the HSA game. So far I am impressed. I exchanged some email questions with Shobin before setting up my account, and I was satisfied with the answers, so I decided to move my small (<$4k) balance to Lively. I opened the account and initiated a trustee-to-trustee transfer entirely online, which is a big improvement over other HSAs as far as I'm concerned. Once my funds arrive, I'll put them into the TD Ameritrade brokerage and I can report back to this thread.

-Adam

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by killjoy2012 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:38 am

I also just opened a Lively account 5 minutes ago and will do a trustee-to-trustee transfer of $25k from Alliant CU. So far, the on-boarding process was fairly painless and entirely online. The post-signup communication is a little lacking. While I opt'ed for the 2 micro deposits to link my CU account, it didn't really explain that or re-confirm that the deposits were actually initiated. Same with the T2T transfer - it took my info, but no "next steps" or anything. I'm guessing a person will look at my enrollment and send an email to me once validated.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by jhfenton » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:42 pm

killjoy2012 wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:38 am
I also just opened a Lively account 5 minutes ago and will do a trustee-to-trustee transfer of $25k from Alliant CU. So far, the on-boarding process was fairly painless and entirely online. The post-signup communication is a little lacking. While I opt'ed for the 2 micro deposits to link my CU account, it didn't really explain that or re-confirm that the deposits were actually initiated. Same with the T2T transfer - it took my info, but no "next steps" or anything. I'm guessing a person will look at my enrollment and send an email to me once validated.
Some of their account setup processes are still handled by manual email. You'll get an email on Monday or Tuesday telling you to check for the microdeposits and to respond by email with the amounts.

They still haven't reclaimed the micro-deposits from my checking, so I'm nearly two quarters in the green at this point. :wink:

Saving$
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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by Saving$ » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:28 pm

Does your money go direct from your current HSA to Choice Financial, or does Lively have custody of it?
- If it goes direct to Choice Financial, isn't your money safe since they are FDIC insured?
- If it does not go direct, I guess the time Lively has it is when you are at risk.

- Once the money is either at Choice Financial or TDA, do you logon to one of those websites to see your balance, or is it through a Lively portal?
- If it is through a Lively portal, how can you confirm the money is actually where they say it is?

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:21 am

Saving$ wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:28 pm
Does your money go direct from your current HSA to Choice Financial, or does Lively have custody of it?
- If it goes direct to Choice Financial, isn't your money safe since they are FDIC insured?
- If it does not go direct, I guess the time Lively has it is when you are at risk.

- Once the money is either at Choice Financial or TDA, do you logon to one of those websites to see your balance, or is it through a Lively portal?
- If it is through a Lively portal, how can you confirm the money is actually where they say it is?
Why don't you ask in the chat on https://livelyme.com/ and see what they say? and share with the board what you find out?

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by jhfenton » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:49 am

Saving$ wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:28 pm
Does your money go direct from your current HSA to Choice Financial, or does Lively have custody of it?
- If it goes direct to Choice Financial, isn't your money safe since they are FDIC insured?
- If it does not go direct, I guess the time Lively has it is when you are at risk.

- Once the money is either at Choice Financial or TDA, do you logon to one of those websites to see your balance, or is it through a Lively portal?
- If it is through a Lively portal, how can you confirm the money is actually where they say it is?
My HSA transfer form directed my current/former custodian to send the money directly to Choice Financial in San Francisco. If you read the HSA agreement, Choice Financial is the bank custodian for Lively. They will hold the cash. But, I do not believe you will have a Choice Financial portal to see your money. Your cash balance will show on the Lively portal. (My cash balance will always be $0 anyway.)

I haven't set up my TD Ameritrade account yet, since they start charging the $2.50/month (daily pro rata) once you do, but you set it up through a link to TD Ameritrade and TD Ameritrade holds your invested assets (just as TD Ameritrade does with HSA Bank and others). You will see all of your assets on the TD Ameritrade site and make your trades there.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by jhfenton » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:55 am

My transfer check from my current/former custodian is supposed to be in the mail today. They received the transfer form Friday. Monday was a bank holiday. Yesterday, my balance dropped to $0 with the transfer pending.

I did have to call my current custodian because they marked the account as being closed and charged me the $25 closing fee. They're going to credit the $25 fee back. Next time I'll do a partial transfer and leave $5 behind.

3 days USPS first class mail from today would be Saturday/Monday. So Monday is the first day, the money could show up at Lively. (I'm guessing it'll be Tuesday.) I plan to set up the TD Ameritrade account on Friday, because it supposedly takes a day to become active.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by letsgobobby » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:01 am

indexfundfan wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:32 pm
aristotelian wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:25 pm
523HRR wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:02 pm
We save with OptumBank HSA. No fees. Funds are invested with Vanguard VTSAX at 0.04% expense ratio. Very happy.
According to HSA Search, you are paying .03% portfolio fee plus a minimum of $3k or $2.75 monthly. Is that correct? If so Lively would seem to be slightly cheaper as well as having the full brokerage option.
It looks like there is also a $2k investment threshold (cash drag; cannot be invested) at the OptumBank HSA.

In my search for a HSA provider, I assign a "fee" value of $40 per year for each thousand that cannot be invested. $2k that cannot be invested is like a fee of $80 / year.
That's pretty generous. I would just think of the $1000 cash requirement in my HSA as part of my emergency fund and lower my bank account balance my that same $1000.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by jhfenton » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:27 am

letsgobobby wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:01 am
indexfundfan wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:32 pm
In my search for a HSA provider, I assign a "fee" value of $40 per year for each thousand that cannot be invested. $2k that cannot be invested is like a fee of $80 / year.
That's pretty generous. I would just think of the $1000 cash requirement in my HSA as part of my emergency fund and lower my bank account balance my that same $1000.
I think assigning a 4% per year fee to the cash drag is a bit high. I mentally "charged" it a reasonable bond yield, so about 2% net, because it supplanted what would otherwise be $2,000 in bonds in my other retirement accounts.

The problem I had with considering the $2,000 cash drag in my current/former HSA as part of my emergency fund was that my custodian would immediately (i.e. the next day) sell invested assets to restore any cash withdrawn from the $2,000 minimum. So I couldn't really withdraw the cash. Any withdrawals came from the investments.

letsgobobby
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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by letsgobobby » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:39 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:27 am
letsgobobby wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:01 am
indexfundfan wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:32 pm
In my search for a HSA provider, I assign a "fee" value of $40 per year for each thousand that cannot be invested. $2k that cannot be invested is like a fee of $80 / year.
That's pretty generous. I would just think of the $1000 cash requirement in my HSA as part of my emergency fund and lower my bank account balance my that same $1000.
I think assigning a 4% per year fee to the cash drag is a bit high. I mentally "charged" it a reasonable bond yield, so about 2% net, because it supplanted what would otherwise be $2,000 in bonds in my other retirement accounts.

The problem I had with considering the $2,000 cash drag in my current/former HSA as part of my emergency fund was that my custodian would immediately (i.e. the next day) sell invested assets to restore any cash withdrawn from the $2,000 minimum. So I couldn't really withdraw the cash. Any withdrawals came from the investments.
good point. although many of us probably never drop below $1000 cash anyway. that could be the "last dollar" of EF.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by jhfenton » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:19 am

Since my HSA rollover could arrive at Lively as early as this weekend, I clicked through the link on Lively to set up my TD Ameritrade account. The process was painless. All of my account information was automatically populated. I just had to answer the standard brokerage questions, accept all of TD Ameritrade's agreements, and set my TD Ameritrade username and password. (TD Ameritrade still limits passwords to 15 characters! :oops: ) The TD Ameritrade account was created immediately, and I was able to log into it directly. The Lively website says that it can take up to one business day for the link to be set up from the Lively side (which is why I initiated it today). They start charging the $2.50/month immediately (daily pro rata), but I'm willing to pay for an extra few days (at 8 cents per day) to make sure the account is ready when my money arrives. (And they still haven't reclaimed the test deposits they made to my checking account, which will cover about 6 days. :P )

I also received my Lively debit card last night at home. I immediately cut it into tiny little pieces and scattered it into garbage cans at home and at work.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by GuineaPig » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:32 am

jhfenton wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:19 am
Since my HSA rollover could arrive at Lively as early as this weekend, I clicked through the link on Lively to set up my TD Ameritrade account. The process was painless. All of my account information was automatically populated. I just had to answer the standard brokerage questions, accept all of TD Ameritrade's agreements, and set my TD Ameritrade username and password. (TD Ameritrade still limits passwords to 15 characters! :oops: ) The TD Ameritrade account was created immediately, and I was able to log into it directly. The Lively website says that it can take up to one business day for the link to be set up from the Lively side (which is why I initiated it today). They start charging the $2.50/month immediately (daily pro rata), but I'm willing to pay for an extra few days (at 8 cents per day) to make sure the account is ready when my money arrives. (And they still haven't reclaimed the test deposits they made to my checking account, which will cover about 6 days. :P )

I also received my Lively debit card last night at home. I immediately cut it into tiny little pieces and scattered it into garbage cans at home and at work.
My HSA transfer just arrived at Lively (though the money is still marked as pending). I also plan to set up with TD Ameritrade soon.

I have a question for you regarding the $2.50 a month: you earlier said, "One additional tidbit with Lively: they take the $2.50/month investment fee from your linked bank account not your HSA cash account or your TD Ameritrade investment account."

So, does that mean that at the end of the month, they'll take the pro-rated amount for October from your linked non-HSA bank account?

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by jhfenton » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:13 am

GuineaPig wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:32 am
My HSA transfer just arrived at Lively (though the money is still marked as pending). I also plan to set up with TD Ameritrade soon.

I have a question for you regarding the $2.50 a month: you earlier said, "One additional tidbit with Lively: they take the $2.50/month investment fee from your linked bank account not your HSA cash account or your TD Ameritrade investment account."

So, does that mean that at the end of the month, they'll take the pro-rated amount for October from your linked non-HSA bank account?
Yay for your money arriving! :beer

I don't know the timing of the deduction. I didn't ask that specifically. I assume it would be around the end of the month. My old custodian charges it the first business day of the following month.

I just asked (1) whether we had to link a bank account: Yes, they use it to deduct the $2.50/month investment fee. And (2) whether I should set up the TD Ameritrade account immediately or wait until the money was about to arrive: Wait, because they pro-rate the $2.50/month for the month so they can keep it on a calendar basis.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by stockfuturist » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:42 pm

Quick update on my situation. Apologies if this was covered already - didn't have time to read through responses.

Account setup was easy but unfortuantely they are NOT ACCEPTING contributions through payroll deductions from my employer (and most likely most employers then). They're goal is to eventually allow that, but for now it's direct deposit through a few employees paying for their service or transfer from existing HSA (or post-tax contributions).

Left account open but staying with SelectAccount HSA for now, b/c the minimal difference in expenses isn't worth the hassle of two active accounts.

Customer service responsiveness was great and the website is nice...

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by jhfenton » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:47 pm

stockfuturist wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:42 pm
Left account open but staying with SelectAccount HSA for now, b/c the minimal difference in expenses isn't worth the hassle of two active accounts.
I understand that. :beer I've been grumbling about the growing fees in my employer-sponsored HSA for two years. Twice, I had even downloaded all of the Saturna forms. But in the end, I always decided that it wasn't worth the hassle to juggle two accounts to save $20-50 per year (especially since Saturna came with its own set of annoyances). And my old HSA did have a few Vanguard Admiral shares to choose from.

But my HSA doubled its asset-based investment fee April 1, 2017 (from 10 bp to 20 bp), doubling my fees to more than $100, and Lively came along with fewer hassles than Saturna. I'll still have money going into my old HSA biweekly, but I won't be paying the $2/month + 20 bp.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by kevinko » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:27 pm

I'm strongly considering Lively for an investable HSA. Transfer looks simple enough and there are no transfer fees from my current HSA provider. Link my bank account and use TD Ameritrade to pick from one of the ETF Vanguard Small Caps for starters. No automatic payroll deduction is a drawback but it gives me some flexibility as well. I don't see any fees for all this other than the $2.50 monthly.

The clean website is a nice bonus too. Is there anything I'm missing here?

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by jhfenton » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:53 pm

kevinko wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:27 pm
The clean website is a nice bonus too. Is there anything I'm missing here?
The only downside I see is the non-trivial chance that their current business model doesn't work. Maybe fees go up. Maybe they go under.

But that would just be an inconvenience. Our assets will be safe at Choice Bank and/or TD Ameritrade. We'll just have to move them again.

Otherwise, I don't see a downside, which is why I'm moving my HSA money.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by jhfenton » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:05 pm

I received an email this morning from Lively that my investment link to TD Ameritrade was set up. In the account online, it shows my HSA balance ($0) and my investment balance ($0), and has a very simple interface to Transfer or Withdraw funds. There is a "My Positions" tab and an "Activity" tab, so it appears that it will pull over positions and transaction info from TD Ameritrade.

The only negative I see is that it says that transfers are "Estimated to arrive in 2 business days". Instantaneous would be best. Overnight would be reasonable. I'm hoping two days is just under-promising.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by John Laurens » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:22 pm

I am a TDA customer. (HSA, taxable,2 solo 401ks, 2 Roth IRAs). I made a large deposit to my taxable account earlier in the week. When I do this my rep usually calls me, he did. I asked him specifically about rumors of them dropping Vanguard ETF’s commission free. He confirmed that “most of them would be rotating out” in November. I told him this would be a problem for me because I exclusively use VTI, VEA, VWO, BND. I probably need to start a thread so my fellow TDA bogleheads can voice their displeasure. He told me they were going to expand to 200 commission free etfs. I told him if they were higher cost etfs (read Pay for play at TDA) I wasn’t interested.

Regards,
John

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by kevinko » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:43 pm

John Laurens wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:22 pm
He confirmed that “most of them would be rotating out”
Thank you for that info. This breaks the deal for me. The Vanguard ETFs were the clincher.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by jhfenton » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:40 pm

kevinko wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:43 pm
John Laurens wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:22 pm
He confirmed that “most of them would be rotating out”
Thank you for that info. This breaks the deal for me. The Vanguard ETFs were the clincher.
It would definitely cause me to wait and see if my money weren't already on the way. The best case scenario is that they're going to swap in much of the iShares suite of low-cost ETFs. They're already have some iShares on the list, but they're an odd lot and include a lot of bond funds. If I have to swap out VWO for IEMG, both at 14 bp, I won't lose any sleep. (You're basically trading Chinese A shares for South Korea.) But that is the best case scenario.

Their terms promise 30 days advance notice on dropping any funds from the list, so there will be time to make swaps in an HSA before commissions reappear on any Vanguard funds they drop.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by indexfundfan » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:54 pm

Looks like TDAM decided that they don't make any money offering Vanguard ETFs. With iShares, I think they might get some kickback from Blackrock.
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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by GuineaPig » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:03 pm

indexfundfan wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:54 pm
Looks like TDAM decided that they don't make any money offering Vanguard ETFs. With iShares, I think they might get some kickback from Blackrock.
Personally, for the purposes of where to house an HSA, I don't think this really changes anything for me. I recall that SelectAccount uses Schwab with its brokerage option. Beyond that, I think most of the other HSA full brokerage options are using TD Ameritrade. There just aren't many good HSA options and even if TD Ameritrade's ETF options change, I don't think it changes the fact that Lively seems to be one of the best HSA accounts.

Now, if I had my main brokerage account or retirement account at TD Ameritrade, I might be more concerned. But I don't.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by kevinko » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:55 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:40 pm
If I have to swap out VWO for IEMG, both at 14 bp, I won't lose any sleep.
I'm talking myself back into it. Some of TDAs iShares offerings look like acceptable enough alternatives to Vanguard. Maybe I can't find the perfect HSA custodian because there isn't one.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by danaht » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:49 pm

I am staying with HSA Bank for now. HSA Bank will not charge any fees as long as you leave ~$5500 in their savings account. The rest of the money can be invested in TD Ameritrade - just like Lively. I treat the $5500 as part of my emergency savings - so I am OK with not investing that. I don't know if I can switch HSA accounts anyway - since I can no longer contribute to a HSA going forward (Humana exited the private market place here, and cancelled my HSA insurance). For now - I decided to take a break from the high premium costs of the individual marketplace and am now a health care sharing ministry member instead. Hopefully with the new executive orders - alternative (short term, or association) individual HSA qualified plans will become available and more affordable - and I'll be able to contribute again!

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by Saving$ » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:01 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:47 pm
stockfuturist wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:42 pm
Left account open but staying with SelectAccount HSA for now, b/c the minimal difference in expenses isn't worth the hassle of two active accounts.
I understand that. :beer I've been grumbling about the growing fees in my employer-sponsored HSA for two years. Twice, I had even downloaded all of the Saturna forms. But in the end, I always decided that it wasn't worth the hassle to juggle two accounts to save $20-50 per year (especially since Saturna came with its own set of annoyances). And my old HSA did have a few Vanguard Admiral shares to choose from.

But my HSA doubled its asset-based investment fee April 1, 2017 (from 10 bp to 20 bp), doubling my fees to more than $100, and Lively came along with fewer hassles than Saturna. I'll still have money going into my old HSA biweekly, but I won't be paying the $2/month + 20 bp.
Would you be kind enough to elaborate on what the Saturna annoyance may be? I need to switch and am trying to decide between Saturna and Lively.
I put money in my HSA once a year, and have to date not spent a cent from it. Due to the tax advantage, I really need to turn it into a buy and hold investment account rather than the savings account it was in at Alliant.

Below is my comparison so far, with a few missing data points....

History:
+ Saturna in business since 2005
- Lively is relatively new

Cost:
+ Saturna $15/year w/ one purchase/year or $25/year inactive acct fee;
- Lively $30/year but could trade more if needed

Savings acct option:
? Saturna ?;
+ Lively: Current interest rate 0.55% (Alliant's last HSA rate was 0.65%)

Brokerage Option:
Saturna: Via Saturna;
Lively: Via TD Ameritrade

Best BH investment option:
Saturna - not sure
Lively: Vanguard ETF's, but may soon no longer be available via TD Ameritrade; but may be replace with IShares which have equally low ER's

Working with them
- Saturna: Unspecified hassle
+ Lively: reportedly very simple

Account Closing Fee
- Saturna: $75
- Lively: Currently no fees.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by kevinko » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:51 pm

It isn't easy putting together a core four via the commission-free ETF offerings from TD Ameritrade if I exclude Vanguard. I got halfway there with IVV (S&P tracker) and AGG (US bonds) so far. Dirt cheap, too (0.04 and 0.06 respectively).

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by mx711yam » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:20 pm

Saving$ wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:01 pm
jhfenton wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:47 pm
stockfuturist wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:42 pm
Left account open but staying with SelectAccount HSA for now, b/c the minimal difference in expenses isn't worth the hassle of two active accounts.
I understand that. :beer I've been grumbling about the growing fees in my employer-sponsored HSA for two years. Twice, I had even downloaded all of the Saturna forms. But in the end, I always decided that it wasn't worth the hassle to juggle two accounts to save $20-50 per year (especially since Saturna came with its own set of annoyances). And my old HSA did have a few Vanguard Admiral shares to choose from.

But my HSA doubled its asset-based investment fee April 1, 2017 (from 10 bp to 20 bp), doubling my fees to more than $100, and Lively came along with fewer hassles than Saturna. I'll still have money going into my old HSA biweekly, but I won't be paying the $2/month + 20 bp.
Would you be kind enough to elaborate on what the Saturna annoyance may be? I need to switch and am trying to decide between Saturna and Lively.
I put money in my HSA once a year, and have to date not spent a cent from it. Due to the tax advantage, I really need to turn it into a buy and hold investment account rather than the savings account it was in at Alliant.

Below is my comparison so far, with a few missing data points....

History:
+ Saturna in business since 2005
- Lively is relatively new

Cost:
+ Saturna $15/year w/ one purchase/year or $25/year inactive acct fee;
- Lively $30/year but could trade more if needed

Savings acct option:
? Saturna ?;
+ Lively: Current interest rate 0.55% (Alliant's last HSA rate was 0.65%)

Brokerage Option:
Saturna: Via Saturna;
Lively: Via TD Ameritrade

Best BH investment option:
Saturna - not sure
Lively: Vanguard ETF's, but may soon no longer be available via TD Ameritrade; but may be replace with IShares which have equally low ER's

Working with them
- Saturna: Unspecified hassle
+ Lively: reportedly very simple

Account Closing Fee
- Saturna: $75
- Lively: Currently no fees.

I have Saturna and like it. I only buy once a year though.

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whodidntante
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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by whodidntante » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:36 pm

TDA has had very good commission free ETF choices for a while now. I hope they don't screw it up. I'm also a customer at ETrade and their list is much worse.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by indexfundfan » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:13 am

Saving$ wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:01 pm
Would you be kind enough to elaborate on what the Saturna annoyance may be? I need to switch and am trying to decide between Saturna and Lively.
I put money in my HSA once a year, and have to date not spent a cent from it. Due to the tax advantage, I really need to turn it into a buy and hold investment account rather than the savings account it was in at Alliant.
I recently started an account with Saturna. If only you invest once a year, Saturna is really the cheapest.

Some random notes about Saturna

* The paper application, which you have to snail mail in, is long. The stack of application forms is like 30 pages long.
* The online trading platform is basic but works. I don't see the ability to submit a funding request online -- I think you have to call in for that or mail in a paper check.
* The platform is mostly for investing your HSA only. I did not notice an easy way for you to get reimbursed for your healthcare spending (but then again, I never did investigate this thoroughly).
* Use an ETF since the commission is lower than buying a Vanguard mutual fund.
* Buying an ETF that distributes its dividends only once a year would avoid un-invested quarterly dividends (unless you pay extra to have dividends re-invested every quarter). Consider using Schwab's international ETFs like SCHE and SCHF, which currently only distribute their dividends once at the end of the year.
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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by indexfundfan » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:15 am

Oh, on the Saturna closing fee -- I believe you can avoid it if you take the distribution and then roll it over to the next HSA custodian. So that is not an issue for me if I want to move out.
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karpems
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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by karpems » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:18 am

Is Lively computable with quicken?

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jhfenton
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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by jhfenton » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:04 pm

Saving$ wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:01 pm
Would you be kind enough to elaborate on what the Saturna annoyance may be? I need to switch and am trying to decide between Saturna and Lively.
I put money in my HSA once a year, and have to date not spent a cent from it. Due to the tax advantage, I really need to turn it into a buy and hold investment account rather than the savings account it was in at Alliant.
I've never actually used Saturna, but both times I downloaded the multiple forms I needed to fill out and mail in, I just imagined what a pain it would be to deal with a company like this. Paper forms. A canceled check. Postage.

Beyond that, I didn't like the nickel and diming on their fee schedule. A fee for reinvesting ETF dividends? I've never seen that anywhere else. And the fees they charge for doing anything would greatly reduce the flexibility of the account. If my wife or I switched jobs and got a new 401(k) with new investment options and we needed to restructure where we held what in our portfolio there'd be a commission to make the switch.

And as a general rule, I don't sign up with companies that charge excessive account transfer/closure fees. That tells me a lot about how they treat customers.

Considering I already had access to a few Vanguard Admiral shares at my employer-sponsored HSA and until recently was paying $24 + 10 bp/year ($60 per year a year ago), I wasn't sufficiently motivated to switch. When they raised the asset fee to 20 bp/year, it was suddenly more motivating paying over $115 per year.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by jhfenton » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:09 pm

kevinko wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:51 pm
It isn't easy putting together a core four via the commission-free ETF offerings from TD Ameritrade if I exclude Vanguard. I got halfway there with IVV (S&P tracker) and AGG (US bonds) so far. Dirt cheap, too (0.04 and 0.06 respectively).
They definitely don't have a complete iShares lineup yet. If they're really going to dump Vanguard, I'm hoping the new line-up will look something like the free iShares lineup on Fidelity with 70 ETFs:

https://www.fidelity.com/etfs/ishares

With that list, you could make a complete three-fund, four-fund, or slice-and-dice portfolio with iShares.

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jhfenton
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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by jhfenton » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:21 pm

karpems wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:18 am
Is Lively computable with quicken?
I don't see anything in the Lively website that hints at downloading transactions, and I'd be surprised if they support it on the back end at this point. Doing a site search for Quicken found nothing.

You should send them an email at support@livelyme.com and ask.

The linked TD Ameritrade account should support Quicken, though. It would just be the cash account that you'd have to do manually.

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Eric
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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by Eric » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:46 pm

I just asked TD Ameritrade about the timing of the change to their ETF lineup, and got this response:
TD Ameritrade wrote:I show that we expect to expand our line-up of commission free ETFs on starting on October 17. At that time, we plan to expand the program to include 296 ETFs. Starting on that date, you should have an access to the full list of new participating ETFs on our Web site.
So, check back in two days.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by jhfenton » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:09 am

From the other thread, discussing the changes to TD Ameritrade's commission-free ETF changes:

TD Ameritrade Drops Vanguard

The list of new ETF providers is not promising, but the key will be whether they have they a few key core iShares ETFs. It does look like they're going pay-to-play, so I'm not holding my breath.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by themicah » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:25 pm

Regarding the TDAM free ETF list changes...

For those who do long-term dollar cost averaging in their HSA, TDAM also lets you set up a recurring purchase of Vanguard mutual funds in these self-directed investment accounts. I think you may need to pay a commission ($25 in my Elements CU-linked TDAM self-directed HSA account) to establish an initial position in the mutual fund, but once you have some shares in a fund, you can set up and make changes to your recurring investments in that fund without any additional commission (and you may be able to avoid the commission altogether if you set up the recurring transaction from the very beginning--I'm not sure about that).

You can also get Vanguard Admiral Shares through TDAM even if you can't find the ticker on their website. I don't recall the details as it was a few years ago that I set it up, but I think you have to call and ask. They may also be able to waive minimum investment requirements for Admiral Shares (again, I don't recall the details). Come to think of it, I should ask if they'll convert me to Institutional Shares without a minimum balance, too...

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by jhfenton » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:30 pm

I received an email from Lively support late this afternoon that my trustee-to-trustee transfer check arrived today and had been credited to my account. They said it would show as pending now and would post this evening.

I should be able to transfer it to the TD Ameritrade account tomorrow and then invest it on Wednesday or Thursday, depending on how quickly that transfer goes. The Lively website says two days, but I'm hoping that they're under-promising.

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Re: New HSA provider Lively offers investments for $30/yr fee

Post by jhfenton » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:49 am

My HSA money is in my TD Ameritrade account this morning and ready to invest. So in this case, at least, it only took one business day.

Edited to add: I persuaded TD Ameritrade to give me three free trades in my HSA. They were reluctant, but I sweet-talked them. It took three messages through their message system, but they offered them "as a one-time courtesy", good for 60 days. I used two this morning, and I will just let the third expire.

Thus ends my HSA rollover adventure. :beer It took less than two weeks beginning to end.

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