Question About Long Term Care

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Diogenes
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by Diogenes » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:55 pm

pintail07 wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:44 am
Rate increases and lack of lifetime coverage is the reason the asset based policies are gaining traction.
You are are an insurance salesman, correct? Could you comment on what the average commission is when you sell a LTCI product?
Also, it would be useful to know the largest companies who still write these policies, and which have a guarantee against rate increases.

pintail07
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by pintail07 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:05 pm

Traditional policies the major competitive players are Transamerica and Mutual of Omaha
None have guaranteed rates.

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TD2626
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by TD2626 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:56 pm

Diogenes wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:55 pm
pintail07 wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:44 am
Rate increases and lack of lifetime coverage is the reason the asset based policies are gaining traction.
You are are an insurance salesman, correct? Could you comment on what the average commission is when you sell a LTCI product?
Also, it would be useful to know the largest companies who still write these policies, and which have a guarantee against rate increases.
I think we have had this conversation before.

To save us all time and prevent us from having the same discussion from a few months back, one can see this post:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=222589&start=100#p3441332

The post is reproduced below:
pintail07 wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:30 am
TD2626 wrote:
pintail07 wrote:
Diogenes wrote:
If someone spends the $100k now to buy one of these hybrid policies, care to share what the immediate commission to the salesman is?

4-6%
Thank you for answering. We certainty value your great depth of experience and expertise, but it's important to know where people are coming from. That 4-6% is pretty impressive.

I presume if someone signs up for a "plain vanilla" policy with, say, $3000 a year in premiums the payout would be less? What's that like?
Commissions are what they are, brokers have no say, company sets commissions based on their assumptions. 4-6% on yearly premium and 50-60% first year on traditional policies. I disclose my commissions up front when asked.



Regarding premium increases, I do think people need to be prepared for them. They could be 50-100%+ and you have no control over it. Buyers of LTCI need to be prepared for this possibility and need to have the ability to pay the premiums even in the event of a substantial increase. However, I think that the premium hikes we've all heard horror stories about are relics of a past age - an age when actuaries seriously underpriced policies and assumed interest rates wouldn't fall to their current low levels. (Insurance companies invest heavily in things like corporate bonds).

They've raised premiums on LTCI a lot over the past years, and premiums now are so high that they're hopefully sufficient to cover claims without need for too many further premium increases. Also, many states are trying to avoid approving of large increases.

Also, presumably increases in premiums wouldn't happen in the first few years after selling the policy. It's hard to justify to state insurance regulators that a policy has been mispriced when it was just sold. Further, if one gets a policy at 60 and plans on paying premiums until death at, say, roughly age 90, a premium hike at age 88 wouldn't really affect things that much. An early premium hike is something more worrisome.

Note that some firms have never raised premiums. These firms may try very hard to keep this status, so one could consider those possibly. Also, some mutual companies have the possibility of paying dividends on their policies, potentially reducing premiums. Recall, as well, that plain vanilla policies with fixed premiums have fixed nominal premiums. The inflation-adjusted or "real" premium would go down each year with inflation, and if one has a COLA'd pension or COlA'd social security then income would go up each year with inflation, and if premiums stay the same the premium as a % of one's income would actually go down each year.

So basically, trying to model or predict premium increases (or possible policy dividends for companies that offer that possibility) is practically impossible. I guess by going with companies that are very financially strong, have many lines of business other than LTCI, and don't have a history of large premium hikes on existing policyholders one could potentially somewhat reduce, but not eliminate, the risk of premium hikes.

Diogenes
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by Diogenes » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:50 am

Is there really anyone who buys a product, "prepared" for the price to later double?

Why would you? Are there any BH's who have actually done so in the past 5 years or so? Any recent purchasers of a non-subsidized LTCI product? Curious about the calculation of the _buyers_. Maybe I'm missing something.
We already know how the sellers calculate.

3port
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by 3port » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:06 am

You are at the perfect age to purchase LTC. It is simply insurance, like term life - it is not an investment.
With pure-insurance (not hybrid) LTC plans, you buy a specific benefit amount, which grows each year if you buy the inflation protection option. The formula is Daily Benefit Amount x No. of Years x 365 days per year.

So if you start at a benefit of $150 per day and purchase a four-year policy:
$150/day x 4 x 365 = $219,000 total benefit. By purchasing the inflation option, it will grow each year. It will always last a minimum of 4 years, because the daily benefit is capped. However, if you spend less than the daily benefit, it can last longer than 4 years. Some people start out only needing help a few hours a day.

SOME LTC is better than NONE, so don't think you need to purchase a Cadillac plan. In old age, you will have your investments + Social Security + pension to cover some of your costs. Think of it as a 4-legged stool with LTC the 4th leg.

Look at your family's health history, in particular related to Alzheimer's or other dementia. Alzheimer's can wipe out a family's fortune, particular if an otherwise healthy person is diagnosed in their 60s or 70s. They can live a long time! Long-term care insurance at your age will cost about $2,500 per year. Compare that to HALF A MONTH in assisted living or skilled nursing. To me it's a no-brainer.

Jackson12
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by Jackson12 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:00 am

Diogenes wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:50 am
Is there really anyone who buys a product, "prepared" for the price to later double?

Why would you? Are there any BH's who have actually done so in the past 5 years or so? Any recent purchasers of a non-subsidized LTCI product? Curious about the calculation of the _buyers_. Maybe I'm missing something.
We already know how the sellers calculate.
Diogenes wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:50 am
Is there really anyone who buys a product, "prepared" for the price to later double?

Why would you? Are there any BH's who have actually done so in the past 5 years or so? Any recent purchasers of a non-subsidized LTCI product? Curious about the calculation of the _buyers_. Maybe I'm missing something.
We already know how the sellers calculate.
When I run the numbers on long- term care it becomes clearer why people are motivated to purchase long term insurance, including a fair number of BHs.( as indicated by responses on previous threads here) . And they'll do so even with the risk of premium increases.

For a couple to accumulate $600,000 ( today's average cost of 3 years in a nursing home for 2 people or $300,000 per person) by my estimate a couple who starts saving funds at age 50 and may need care by 80 ( as my parents did) would need to invest just short of $600 a month - earning a 6% percent return ...and that amount is in addition to funds saved for basic living expenses such as food, housing, etc.

And If they buy a policy which meets state approved Partnership plan requirements, they get additional benefits of up to $300,000 each- because "dollar for dollar" asset protection is included ( see more about this below)

Please check my numbers. I could be in error. It's late. I'm tired.

So people with policies hold their breath and hope premiums don't increase. Because Medicare doesn't cover long-term care ( beyond a very limited number of days ) . Because they don't have enough extra money to save for long- term care or don't believe they'll get a decent long - term return.

And as noted above, if they buy a state approved partnership plan, they can get additional " dollar for dollar" asset protection and keep assets of $300,000 each and still qualify for Medicaid)

That asset protection may be perceived as a huge benefit.

What other options do they have? Medicare doesn't cover long- term care. Those who are wealthy enough can self insure. Those who don't qualify for long- term insurance or can't put aside extra savings may have to go on Medicaid.

That leaves those in between: they can't self insure, want to avoid Medicaid, don't want to depend on their kids for help, want asset protection and can afford premiums for long- term care coverage . And they believe there is a likelihood that they'll need long- term care.

So it becomes all about the costs of long- term care and who can save enough to cover it and subsequent premium increases in addition to saving for the basic costs of living . And they get asset protection if a qualified Partnership plan is purchased.

Even with premiums of $3500 to $5000 a year ( for a couple) and the risk of a premium hike, coverage of $600,000 ($300,000 each per person )- plus an equivalent amount of asset protection - appeals to some.

The odds of needing that care is another thing. Variables such as a family history of longevity and long- term care needs is a consideration. Perhaps parents and grandparents needed long-term care and it severely impacted their finances...and some BHs want to avoid that.

pintail07
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by pintail07 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:07 am

We already know how the sellers calculate.

How do they calculate different than the buyers?

Nate79
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by Nate79 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:01 am

I think LTCi has been confused for a way to fund long term care as opposed to fund a low probability event yet very high cost case of needing long term care (where assets may be depleted). If long term care becomes a high probability need then premiums must go up. There is no free lunch.

pintail07
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by pintail07 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:42 am

If one believes the HHS, the probability of needing some LTC after age 65 is 70 per cent. Pretty high probability don't you thin?

Diogenes
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by Diogenes » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:50 am

Nate79 wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:01 am
I think LTCi has been confused for a way to fund long term care as opposed to fund a low probability event yet very high cost case of needing long term care (where assets may be depleted). If long term care becomes a high probability need then premiums must go up. There is no free lunch.
True. But at the moment, LTCI seems much like dental insurance. More like prepaying your care and hoping you can weather the huge premium increases until the time you might need it. The difference is that there are not many brokers hovering wanting to sell you a faulty dental plan so as to pocket a quick commission. But unlike dental coverage, the few remaining policies that are sold by the insurance salesman are sold based on fear, not results.
This in undoubtedly due to the poor risk/return for these companies due to the fewer and fewer willing to buy them. If that weren't true, many other insures would be selling it.
There is no free lunch, true. But there also should be clarity and less fear-based selling. The average stay in a care facility is about a year, not three years.

pintail07
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by pintail07 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:27 pm

Average stay is 835 days according to National Care Council. In addition, 80 per cent of LTC claims are not for nursing homes. People usually start off at home then to assisted living before ending up in a nursing home,

neilpilot
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by neilpilot » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:08 pm

Diogenes wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:50 am

There is no free lunch, true. But there also should be clarity and less fear-based selling. The average stay in a care facility is about a year, not three years.
As mentioned by others, the average stay for someone needing facility care using LTCi is well over 3 years. Also, there was a "free lunch" back when we started LTCi in 1999, at age 49. The policy premium was very cheap by today's standards, even for that age, and the policy has a fixed premium that has remained the same over the past 19 years. The coverage, however, has increased to 240% of the original policy due to the inflation riders and should continue to increase by 5%/yr.

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TD2626
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by TD2626 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:17 pm

Diogenes wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:50 am
Nate79 wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:01 am
I think LTCi has been confused for a way to fund long term care as opposed to fund a low probability event yet very high cost case of needing long term care (where assets may be depleted). If long term care becomes a high probability need then premiums must go up. There is no free lunch.
True. But at the moment, LTCI seems much like dental insurance. More like prepaying your care and hoping you can weather the huge premium increases until the time you might need it. The difference is that there are not many brokers hovering wanting to sell you a faulty dental plan so as to pocket a quick commission. But unlike dental coverage, the few remaining policies that are sold by the insurance salesman are sold based on fear, not results.
This in undoubtedly due to the poor risk/return for these companies due to the fewer and fewer willing to buy them. If that weren't true, many other insures would be selling it.
There is no free lunch, true. But there also should be clarity and less fear-based selling. The average stay in a care facility is about a year, not three years.
The goal when buying insurance, in my opinion, is to try to buy insurance instead of a high-expense-ratio forced-savings product. That's why long elimination periods (with the savings from the long elimination period devoted towards a longer number of years of coverage) make the product more be like catastrophic insurance. One then gets the benefits of risk pooling.

The long elimination period comes with a potential high bill: paying for one year in a nursing home could cost $100k+, and that is what might happen with a long elimination period. People would of course need to have savings to cover this. Also, those who get this sort of catastrophic coverage would need to understand that it will not cover all care costs and will likely not even cover most costs.

This sort of strategy seems reasonable in my opinion, though you may want to change it to "some LTCI MAY be better than none", as for many, no LTCI could be the best route. Those with few assets who can't afford premiums, and those with a lot who could easily self-pay, likely shouldn't get LTCI, in my opinion.
3port wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:06 am
SOME LTC is better than NONE, so don't think you need to purchase a Cadillac plan. In old age, you will have your investments + Social Security + pension to cover some of your costs. Think of it as a 4-legged stool with LTC the 4th leg.
One could combine SS/Pensions/Annuities into a single "leg" of the stool, and investments into a second "leg". The third leg could be LTCI. One could find the amount that one can afford to devote towards long term care by adding up income (from SS/Pensions/Annuities) plus 4% of assets (if 4% is used as a sustainable withdrawal rate... 3% may be more conservative). Converting this annual amount to a per diem amount is often helpful. If one has $140/day in income and expects to be able to sustainably withdrawal $130/day from the portfolio in old age, then the total that this person would be able to sustainably spend on care costs without depleting their assets would be $140+$130=$270. Potential costs are (in current dollars) probably around $200-300 per day for a nursing home, and possibly up to $400+/day for round-the-clock in-home care. There ares some studies in this area (for example: https://www.genworth.com/dam/Americas/U ... 092717.pdf) that show potential costs. Also, at some point if in home care is desired it becomes simple math: if $20/hour home health aide services are envisioned for 24 hours per day, $20x24=$480/day would be needed. Of course, a policy that covers $480/day is almost certainty unaffordable, so if in home care is strongly preferred and assets+income are $270/day, then a $480-$270= $210/day policy may be reasonable. If the insured does not have a strong desire to remain at home, it may be harder to make the case for LTCI. Note that in this case, the LCTI would be only one leg of the stool, a separate, large emergency fund would have to pay for a long elimination period, and $100,000+ in premiums would be paid in to a policy that one may or may not see benefit from. LTCI is a very individual decision and should be based on one's own circumstances, desires, goals, and finances.

There is no denying that catastrophic outcomes are possible. A person who saved for decades in hopes of passing some savings on for future generations could instead spend $1,500,000 on out of pocket costs. (Patients with Alzheimers, stroke, Parkinson's, or other conditions may need 10+ years of $150,000/year care). Although many people will end up having no need for long term care, and although many of those who do need care will not need it long enough to satisfy the elimination period or will only need a year or two of coverage.

LTCI is a decision that I feel people need to evaluate carefully. It isn't for everyone - and indeed, it is likely that this is a product only suitable for very few., in my opinion. However, given that premiums could cost six figures and given that care expenses could cost seven figures, it is something that one should take seriously. Whether or not one decides to buy LTCI, engage in medicaid planning, or self-insure, being informed about one's plans is likely better than the alternative: the "ostrich with the head in the sand" option.
pintail07 wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:07 am
We already know how the sellers calculate.

How do they calculate different than the buyers?
Please note that my opinions are just that - uninformed opinions. My only experience with this area is with previously helping a close family member with an LTCI decision. I feel that some sellers have the potential to focus on calculating their commissions too much and don't spend enough time seeing if LTCI is or is not a good option for the buyer. That forces the buyer to have to do the legwork themselves to be informed of all options, do careful calculations, and carefully read the policies. Since truly doing the math is very difficult, many buyers are sadly hoodwinked by unscrupulous salespeople. (Note that I am referring to the risks of potentially unscrupulous financial or insurance salespeople in general; I am not intending to evaluate or imply anything about any specific individual. Many experts such as Ferri or Swedroe are valued members of the Boglehead community) . Some salespeople may add value if they are impartial and highly ethical. However, of course, sellers working for a company would only discuss their company's policies, when another company may provide more value. When a buyer solicits quotes from several companies, few can provide assistance to that buyer to impartially compare. Maybe this is a case where a financial planner, who doesn't sell anything, yet is experienced in this area, and solely makes money by doing custom planning on an hourly basis, could help. Sadly, in this country, such a person is very rare.

pintail07
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by pintail07 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:35 pm

Please note that my opinions are just that - uninformed opinions. My only experience with this area is with previously helping a close family member with an LTCI decision. I feel that some sellers have the potential to focus on calculating their commissions too much and don't spend enough time seeing if LTCI is or is not a good option for the buyer. That forces the buyer to have to do the legwork themselves to be informed of all options, do careful calculations, and carefully read the policies. Since truly doing the math is very difficult, many buyers are sadly hoodwinked by unscrupulous salespeople. (Note that I am referring to the risks of potentially unscrupulous financial or insurance salespeople in general; I am not intending to evaluate or imply anything about any specific individual. Many experts such as Ferri or Swedroe are valued members of the Boglehead community) . Some salespeople may add value if they are impartial and highly ethical. However, of course, sellers working for a company would only discuss their company's policies, when another company may provide more value. When a buyer solicits quotes from several companies, few can provide assistance to that buyer to impartially compare. Maybe this is a case where a financial planner, who doesn't sell anything, yet is experienced in this area, and solely makes money by doing custom planning on an hourly basis, could help. Sadly, in this country, such a person is very rare.
There are many LTC brokers that do just as you suggest. Simply because a broker earns a commission on a product doesn't necessarily cloud his objective opinion. I tell many folks these plans are not for them. There are fewer and fewer brokers that only do LTC.

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Artful Dodger
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by Artful Dodger » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:54 pm

As of my next anniversary, I and my wife with have a $199 daily benefit each for 5 years. We have a spousal rider, so if one of us would go on claim, and exhaust our 5 years of benefits, we can access our spouses' 5 years of benefits, up to the policy's 10 year max (thereby decreasing the other's potential benefit). Depending on type of care, in home or assisted living facility, our costs may be below the daily amount, in which case the accrued dollars are considered a pool of money and can pay benefits until the pool is exhausted even if over 5 years.

We currently have 5% compound inflation, so in 20 years when I will be 83 (about the time my mom went on claim), we'll each have a daily $527 benefit or annual benefit of $192,355, and policy benefit each of $961,775. Total benefit of $1,923,550 for the total 10 years. I can, at anniversary, reduce my inflation to 3% compound. This will reduce the increase to 15%, or $3000 annual premium. This changes the above to $358 daily benefit, $130,743 annual benefit, $653,715 5 years, and $1,307,430 10 years.

For me, these are reasonable premiums to pay for this protection. As others have posted, if you will not have a substantial estate, it is not reasonable. Paying down your assets, then Medicaid, is the normal option. For those in between, LTC insurance makes a lot of sense. You, or your spouse or heirs, will have greater choices for your treatment and accommodations, and your estate will be protected. If you have a $10M estate, you could certainly self insure. But (and this applies to those with smaller estates as well) wouldn't you rather your heirs had a separate prepaid pool of money to cover your LTC expenses, instead of writing $10K-$20K checks out of their inheritance every month for potentially a very long time. If you go into a nursing home with a cognitive impairment (alzheimers or other dementia), but in otherwise good physical health, there's a good chance you'll be there a long time. Remember, you're in a facility with round the clock medical care.

I know there is a possibility of rate increases. But, as I said earlier, my home owners insurance has gone up, and I expect we'll see increases in medical insurance as well as other costs. If there are LTC increases, I can make adjustments to the policy to lower my future benefits, and maintain a reasonable premium, should I choose. However, I expect with investment earnings and SS colas, the premium cost, even if increased, will still be at 2-4% of my income, and I'll maintain the richer benefit.

Chip
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by Chip » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:32 am

Artful Dodger wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:54 pm
As of my next anniversary, I and my wife with have a $199 daily benefit each for 5 years. We have a spousal rider, so if one of us would go on claim, and exhaust our 5 years of benefits, we can access our spouses' 5 years of benefits, up to the policy's 10 year max (thereby decreasing the other's potential benefit).
You mentioned earlier that you bought this policy 6 or 7 years ago. Do you know if it is still available?

I am somewhat amazed that no insurance company is offering lifetime coverage, no maximum, with lengthy elimination periods (e.g. 3-5 years) for a reasonable price. True risk pooling for high cost/low probability events vs. what is basically prepaid LTC expenses in most of the policies I see. I guess I'd want a lump sum pricing option as well to protect against future premium increases.

Member pintail07 has mentioned the whole life policies with a lifetime LTC rider (and guaranteed premiums!) as an option. For my situation that seems like the currently best available option, but I really don't understand why the two products can't be separated. I have the typical Boglehead aversion to whole life, and don't need any sort of life insurance anyway.
[/rant]

pintail07
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by pintail07 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:54 am

The life insurance amount is small, enough to return the deposit if not used

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Artful Dodger
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by Artful Dodger » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:23 am

Chip wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:32 am
Artful Dodger wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:54 pm
As of my next anniversary, I and my wife with have a $199 daily benefit each for 5 years. We have a spousal rider, so if one of us would go on claim, and exhaust our 5 years of benefits, we can access our spouses' 5 years of benefits, up to the policy's 10 year max (thereby decreasing the other's potential benefit).
You mentioned earlier that you bought this policy 6 or 7 years ago. Do you know if it is still available?

I am somewhat amazed that no insurance company is offering lifetime coverage, no maximum, with lengthy elimination periods (e.g. 3-5 years) for a reasonable price. True risk pooling for high cost/low probability events vs. what is basically prepaid LTC expenses in most of the policies I see. I guess I'd want a lump sum pricing option as well to protect against future premium increases.

Member pintail07 has mentioned the whole life policies with a lifetime LTC rider (and guaranteed premiums!) as an option. For my situation that seems like the currently best available option, but I really don't understand why the two products can't be separated. I have the typical Boglehead aversion to whole life, and don't need any sort of life insurance anyway.
[/rant]
Turns out it will be 9 years at next policy anniversary in January. I doubt if the exact same policy is available now. It seems they make modifications every few years. I would think the spousal benefit is fairly common. I think it was offered in one form or another by all the companies we reviewed prior to purchase.

I don't know the answer to your question about increasing the elimination period. We have a 90 day period, which is pretty common. They offered a 180 day elimination, but it was only a 5% savings. The policy covers home care with no elimination period, so that affects the pricing and would reduce the discount compared to a true 180 elimination period. To reduce to a 30 day elimination was only a 12% increase. To double the 180 to 365 may have only been 2-3% decrease from the 180 day elimination period cost. 90 days seemed reasonable. I expect if they thought there was a market for much longer elimination periods, they would make them available.

likegarden
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by likegarden » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:11 pm

We are paying around $6,000 premiums per year for two and experienced 10% per year increases in premiums. We understand that costs in the nursing homes increase much faster than the overall inflation rate. We do not have to agree to the premium increase, but then the covered nursing home expenses will also not increase. So with constant premium coverage would stay constant too.

Diogenes
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by Diogenes » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:33 pm

Artful Dodger wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:54 pm


We currently have 5% compound inflation, so in 20 years when I will be 83 (about the time my mom went on claim), we'll each have a daily $527 benefit or annual benefit of $192,355, and policy benefit each of $961,775. Total benefit of $1,923,550 for the total 10 years. I can, at anniversary, reduce my inflation to 3% compound. This will reduce the increase to 15%, or $3000 annual premium. This changes the above to $358 daily benefit, $130,743 annual benefit, $653,715 5 years, and $1,307,430 10 years.

I know there is a possibility of rate increases. But, as I said earlier, my home owners insurance has gone up, and I expect we'll see increases in medical insurance as well as other costs. If there are LTC increases, I can make adjustments to the policy to lower my future benefits, and maintain a reasonable premium, should I choose. However, I expect with investment earnings and SS colas, the premium cost, even if increased, will still be at 2-4% of my income, and I'll maintain the richer benefit.
Could you post how much you will have paid in premiums over the next 20 years, with perhaps a conservative 10 percent premium increase per year?
Thanks for your stats, it's best to hear from someone who is a consumer.
There apparently aren't many buyers out there now, or there would be more sellers. That's a warning flag. A proposal for whole life is another one.

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Meg77
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by Meg77 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:37 pm

I haven't read all the comments, but my advice is to table this decision for a few more years and revisit when you turn 60.

The odds of needing long term care prior to turning 60 are very low, and since the premiums adjust anyway you'd be effectively throwing away the money on the policy over the next few years. Hopefully the market (healthcare in general and insurance in particular) will suffer from a bit less uncertainty by then as well.
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin

RudyS
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by RudyS » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:03 pm

However, you have to remain in good enough health to be insurable until then. I know that sounds like what the agents say, but it's true.

pintail07
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by pintail07 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:53 pm

Compare the cost to wait combined with the risk of a change in insurability.

Jackson12
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by Jackson12 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:15 pm

I think family history of longevity should be a factor when deciding in this type of insurance. Longevity is common in my family, with many members needing at least several years of care. A grandmother came to live with my parents and after years of family caretaking, needed to move to a nursing home. Same with 2 other close family members.

I was able to provide much of that care - and supervise the rest- but my spouse and I won't be so lucky. Even with high premium increases, how is an individual supposed to save enough to cover $90,000 per year, with a high probability of needing several years of care?

Any funds saved for long-term care are in addition to savings needed for basic retirement costs. Longevity does not run in my husband's family. Even so, I would be reluctant to roll the dice and insure only one person.

Anyway, a family history of longevity could significantly raise the odds of needing care. I,am still ambivalent about long-long term care insurance but the costs of care as we age is a great concern and the one major area where we feel our portfolio is at risk of being depleted.

pintail07
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by pintail07 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:52 pm

Find a broker that will show you all options from many companies

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TD2626
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Re: Question About Long Term Care

Post by TD2626 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:52 pm

Jackson12 wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:15 pm
I think family history of longevity should be a factor when deciding in this type of insurance.
There is always academic research that can be consulted instead of speculating on this topic.

For example: "Blame the parents? The association between parental longevity and successful ageing" by Gjonça& Zaninotto (2008).

It could be the case that someone who has parents who live longer may age more sucessfully - e.g. need less long term care. Further, if you are expecting to live longer, that could involve paying premiums for a decade longer than the average person for the same LTCI coverage.

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