Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

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Opool8830
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Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by Opool8830 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:27 pm

Hey all!

New to the forum but a huge, life long fan of Bogle. For almost a year, a friend (term used quite loosely. knew each other as children) of mine has been asking me to come to various jerry rigged events that I know are actually schemes to talk to be about Primerica investing and down streaming. I have avoided and lied about why I couldn't come for ages. Finally, this last time, I just told her honestly that I wasn't interested in Primerica, as I thought the loads and actively managed funds strategy made them a much worse investment that no load, passively managed index funds. We've gone back and forth a few times via facebook and we're finally just sitting down for coffee later this week. I was wondering if anyone has a resource for comparing the 20 year returns of two funds? I can find ten year charts, but nothing longer. Or better yet, the load adjusted returns for two funds? She's advocating that I would be better off having invested in aceix than vtsmx, using some truly questionable return data that I am nearly certain does not account for the load and higher management fees.

Beyond being equipped with those two figures, are there are particular statistics you would arm yourself with? I'm tired of these sorts of half informed income seekers passing some simple test and feeling like they're qualified to tell people what to do with their money, when they seem--in my experience--to be high UNDER qualified to be doing so! Thanks in advance.

rebellovw
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by rebellovw » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:37 pm

We probably know the same person - haha. When I ditched facebook - I had a friend on there that was always posting about primerica. I searched here - and cracked up at someone's comment "run!"

delamer
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by delamer » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:42 pm

I appreciate and agree with your dislike of these type of advisors. But what do you expect to accomplish by providing her with the data that you are looking for? Do you think she is going to give up her livelihood based on a few tables of 20-year returns? She certainly isn't going to share them with her clients.

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unclescrooge
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by unclescrooge » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:47 pm

By engaging with her you're signalling that you could be persuaded, given the right motivation.

Is that so?

If not, then you simply shut down the conversion by blocking her number and ghosting her.

There is nothing you can say that will change her mind.
Last edited by unclescrooge on Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

mhalley
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by mhalley » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:51 pm

You can use portfolio visualizer but it shows aceix wins at 9.66 vs 9.45% since 1993 IF you just use a starting balance of 10k.
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/backtest-portfolio
BUT, if you start with 10k and put in money annually (I picked $5500, as you would do with an IRA) then you get total stock market winning, with 17.37 vs 17.28% cagr. PLUS, this does not account for advisor fees. They have a way to model advisor fees, and if I put in a 1% advisory fee, the cagr goes to 16.45%. It comes to an ending account balance of 526,598 total stock market vs 443,445 invesco with the 1% fee. 473,241 with cagr of 16.86% with a 0.5% fee.
Of course there are many funds that have a history of outperformance. Finding the ones that will do so going forward is the trick.
Last edited by mhalley on Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:36 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Dottie57
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by Dottie57 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:52 pm

Opool8830 wrote: โ†‘
Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:27 pm
Hey all!

New to the forum but a huge, life long fan of Bogle. For almost a year, a friend (term used quite loosely. knew each other as children) of mine has been asking me to come to various jerry rigged events that I know are actually schemes to talk to be about Primerica investing and down streaming. I have avoided and lied about why I couldn't come for ages. Finally, this last time, I just told her honestly that I wasn't interested in Primerica, as I thought the loads and actively managed funds strategy made them a much worse investment that no load, passively managed index funds. We've gone back and forth a few times via facebook and we're finally just sitting down for coffee later this week. I was wondering if anyone has a resource for comparing the 20 year returns of two funds? I can find ten year charts, but nothing longer. Or better yet, the load adjusted returns for two funds? She's advocating that I would be better off having invested in aceix than vtsmx, using some truly questionable return data that I am nearly certain does not account for the load and higher management fees.

Beyond being equipped with those two figures, are there are particular statistics you would arm yourself with? I'm tired of these sorts of half informed income seekers passing some simple test and feeling like they're qualified to tell people what to do with their money, when they seem--in my experience--to be high UNDER qualified to be doing so! Thanks in advance.

Really, all you need to say is No. "No." is a complete sentence.

You do not need to explain or justify.

livesoft
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by livesoft » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:08 pm

And don't forget to compute the taxes paid along the way with the funds you are comparing. The after-tax returns can be outstandingly different from the published returns.
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by 123 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:19 pm

I would simply tell the Primerica Advisor that we both know that past returns are not a guarantee of future results but that comparing two alternative investments or strategies can be interesting. I'd tell the adviser that we can return to the investment discussion in 20 years and see who was right. And then change the subject. Remind the adviser that then each of you has the right to say "I told you so" as appropriate.
The closest helping hand is at the end of your own arm.

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CAsage
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by CAsage » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:21 pm

Can this Advisor show you that the only fund they were recommending 20 years ago was that one? What about all the losers? Have a quick discussion about survivorship bias - all the losing funds they don't talk about. Of course, after the fact anyone can research the data and find a managed fund or three that beat the odds - but that means nothing. Going forward is the hard part, and expenses truly matter. Honestly, you are wasting your breath on this conversation... [OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]. Don't confuse me with real data!
Salvia Clevelandii "Winifred Gilman" my favorite. YMMV; not a professional advisor.

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whodidntante
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by whodidntante » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:24 pm

She's a saleswoman, and you don't want the product she's selling. Tell her you don't want it. If she still wants to talk about it, break contact.

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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by sport » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:25 pm

Just say you are not interested, and cancel the meeting.

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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by Mel Lindauer » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:55 pm

I guess the real question is why you're even giving her a shot at selling you something based on the past performance of a single data-mined mutual fund? You have nothing to prove, and even if you did, she's a trained sales person who knows how to counter facts with misdirection.

Cancel the meeting and just say "No thanks".
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camillus
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by camillus » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:56 pm

Cancel the meeting. What's the point other than a headache for yourself?

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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by SoonerD » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:57 pm

I recommend one of 3 approaches (I prefer #1).

1) call her and tell her you accepted the invitation out of politeness. You now realize it's impolite to meet with a sales person when you have no interest in purchasing their product. Apologize for misusing her time and cancel the meeting.

2) call her and ask her to send you some materials in advance of the meeting. tell her you want to see her personal portfolio for the period beginning (whenever aceix began it's outperformance). You want all buys, sells and personal rate of returns on the quarterly statements. Tell her once you confirm she has outperformed your portfolio you will be interested to meet with her to learn how she's able to pick winners in advance of them becoming winners.

3) meet with her and discuss your childhood memories. ask about her family, hobbies, her views on Brexit, Trump, ACA, the Bird Flew (is that still a thing?), etc. Once she turn the topic to investments tell her your a boglehead, give her a copy of "common sense on mutual funds" and thank her for meeting. pick up the check since she's probably not making a great living peddling sub-primeamerica.

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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by Sandtrap » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:18 pm

Email:

Dear such and such,
Thank you so much for spending time with me and your efforts thusfar.
However, I am no longer interested in your services.
Good luck in your future endeavors.
Sincerely
.. . . .

add or delete frosting to taste.
done. :D

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FrugalInvestor
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by FrugalInvestor » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:33 pm

unclescrooge wrote: โ†‘
Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:47 pm
By engaging with her you're signalling that you could be persuaded, given the right motivation.

Is that so?

If not, then you simply shut down the conversion by blocking her number and ghosting her.

There is nothing you can say that will change her mind.
Exactly! As long as you respond - either positively or negatively - she will continue to engage you. Either shut it down or be prepared for the pitches to continue. The job of a well trained salesperson is to overcome objections so your objecting will just bring on more attempts to convince you.
Last edited by FrugalInvestor on Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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nedsaid
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by nedsaid » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:35 pm

Opool8830 wrote: โ†‘
Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:27 pm
Hey all!

New to the forum but a huge, life long fan of Bogle. For almost a year, a friend (term used quite loosely. knew each other as children) of mine has been asking me to come to various jerry rigged events that I know are actually schemes to talk to be about Primerica investing and down streaming.

Nedsaid: Wow. Some things just never change. A fellow from my church invited me to some of these things over 25 years ago. This used to be A.L. Williams and Primerica bought them out. Pretty much, buy term life insurance rather than whole life and invest the difference in loaded mutual funds. It also was an opportunity for somebody to get into the life insurance and investment businesses on a part time basis. Not bad folks, but very zealous. You would think they were the first to discover that whole life insurance is very expensive, so expensive that it made putting funds aside for long term investment much more difficult for a young family.

Very interesting, James E. Stowers Jr. pretty much did the same thing. He formed a life insurance company to sell term insurance to young families and then started a mutual fund company. He hired commissioned representatives to sell his products. He did what A.L. Williams did, but many years earlier. He sold his insurance company and concentrated on his mutual fund firm which is now known as American Century Investments. This firm made the transition from being a loaded fund group to a no-load group many years ago.

So what they are doing was good for its time. Individuals and families have much better options now than Primerica. Again, not bad folks but sort of Amway for life insurance and mutual funds.


I have avoided and lied about why I couldn't come for ages. Finally, this last time, I just told her honestly that I wasn't interested in Primerica, as I thought the loads and actively managed funds strategy made them a much worse investment that no load, passively managed index funds. We've gone back and forth a few times via facebook and we're finally just sitting down for coffee later this week. I was wondering if anyone has a resource for comparing the 20 year returns of two funds? I can find ten year charts, but nothing longer. Or better yet, the load adjusted returns for two funds? She's advocating that I would be better off having invested in aceix than vtsmx, using some truly questionable return data that I am nearly certain does not account for the load and higher management fees.

Nedsaid: Your friend is probably sincere. This is the type of company where the representatives have a very strong belief in what they are doing and she thinks she is doing you a service. I think what I would do is simply agree to disagree. All she has to do is make the comparisons for herself on Morningstar and see that Vanguard is the better deal. The thing is, she is trying hard to make this a full-time rather than a part-time job and also trying to make herself financially independent. Just tell her that you do your own investing and that you are happy with what you are doing. There is really no point in having an argument. No amount of data will convince her.


Beyond being equipped with those two figures, are there are particular statistics you would arm yourself with? I'm tired of these sorts of half informed income seekers passing some simple test and feeling like they're qualified to tell people what to do with their money, when they seem--in my experience--to be high UNDER qualified to be doing so! Thanks in advance.
A fool and his money are good for business.

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Watty
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by Watty » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:51 pm

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

Upton Sinclair


A large part of a salespersons training is how to handle objection and if you will not buy their mutual funds then the conversation will likely turn to things like life insurance and annuities.

While you may think that the person is an incompetent financial advisor it would be a big mistake to think that they are not a good salesperson. More than one person has gone to the free financial planning dinner or timeshare presentation "knowing" that they would just take the freebie and not buy anything only to actually buy what was being sold.

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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by mlebuf » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:44 pm

I just did a Google search for Primerica and found this:

Primerica, Inc. is a United States-based multi-level marketing company that sells insurance and financial services. As of 2017, it reported 121,471 independent representatives. Wikipedia
Customer service: 1 (800) 257-4725
Stock price: PRI (NYSE) $82.20 +0.25 (+0.31%)
Oct 4, 4:02 PM EDT - Disclaimer
Headquarters: Duluth, GA
CEO: Glenn J. Williams (Apr 1, 2015โ€“)
Founder: Arthur L. Williams Jr.
Founded: February 10, 1977
Revenue: 1.52 billion USD (2016)

If you ever make the mistake of shaking hands with someone who actually became wealthy through multi-level marketing, count your fingers. MLM companies are little more than legalized pyramid schemes. The big dogs at the top get rich by convincing reps that they can get rich if they just keep trying. It's a con game that would make a carnival barker blush.
Best wishes, | Michael | | Invest your time actively and your money passively.

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Raymond
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by Raymond » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:18 am

Opool8830, welcome to Bogleheads!

Why waste any more time and life energy on this person, who very likely does not consider you a friend or even an acquaintance, but a sucker to be fleeced?

Do you think that debating her will change her mind? See the Upton Sinclair quote above.

This isn't the OK Corral, no one is "throwing down" on anyone.

"I learned long ago never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it" - attributed to George Bernard Shaw.

Cancel the meeting, block her email address and phone number, unfriend her from Facebook, and spend time with people you enjoy being around.
"Ritter, Tod und Teufel"

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mlebuf
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by mlebuf » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:40 am

As fate would have it, I just read this article online titled, "Where Snakes in Suits Make Money."
https://assetbuilder.com/knowledge-cent ... make-money
Best wishes, | Michael | | Invest your time actively and your money passively.

glensos
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by glensos » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:36 am

Simple math tells us that active managers as a group will underperform. Overtime roughly 10% of active managers will outperform and most if not all would simply do so by blind chance. (Dumb luck). The odds of the managers repeating that outperformance in any future period are exactly the same odds outlined above.

Sticking to passive funds simply insures you of being in the top 90 percentile of performance. And that means you are avoiding a 90 % chance of failure with losses you probably canโ€™t afford.

Anybody could identify a winning fund looking at the past. No one can identify a winning fund in the future.

This is kindergarten through graduate school finance. Itโ€™s so simple for us, yet so hard for the sales people because itโ€™s not in their interest to comprehend.Trying to convince your friend is like trying to teach a pig to fly.

Perhaps you just tell her in a friendly way that YOU are just not interested in making changes to your investments. Unless you just get really frustrated and want to be contentious and argumentative, and get some research and just let her know how stupid you think she is.

Glen

glensos
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by glensos » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:02 am

Thinking more about request for specific information relative to the subject if you want to dive deeper you might ask her if a 20 year period is long enough to be sure that this manager is skilled and not just lucky? Let her answer that question. A well known university professor asked his class that very question, and shared the math which results in this answer.

If a manager outperforms the market with the same standard deviation of the market, by 5% per year for a period of 64 years, at that point it would appear that those results could not have been by random chance. So then the question would be: can I count on this old guy to retain his skill when the medical community would now be presenting data that I should not count on him to continue to have the same level of cognitive ability.

Only the legendary Warren Buffet has even got close to those numbers and we will never know if his superior stock selection was by skill or luck.

So maybe you and your friend can make a date to meet in 44 years and get the question settled, skill or luck?

Feel free to PM me and I may be able to get you the data.

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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:29 am

Waste of time. Block her on facebook. Block her on your phone. Don't show up for the meeting. If she somehow finds you anyways, tell here that you needed to go to an emergency meeting with your bankruptcy lawyer because another creditor was demanding payment and all of your funds have already been drained to zero.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

retiredjg
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by retiredjg » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:04 am

SoonerD wrote: โ†‘
Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:57 pm
1) call her and tell her you accepted the invitation out of politeness. You now realize it's impolite to meet with a sales person when you have no interest in purchasing their product. Apologize for misusing her time and cancel the meeting.
I like this idea a lot except I would do it by email or text. :happy

Forget trying to convince her of anything. She will not hear and she will not understand. Her income depends on believing what she has been taught. This is human nature.

As along as you are arguing with her over who is right, she still thinks you are a potential customer. Until she understands that you are not going to buy her product, you are still a potential client.

stan1
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by stan1 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:33 am

I have better things to do with my time than argue with other people about religion, politics, and investing (like doing laundry and cleaning up dog poop in the yard).

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djpeteski
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by djpeteski » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:45 am

In some aspects Primerica is great. It gives people who might have been duped by a whole life insurance salesman in the market. While their funds may be sub-par to index funds, they are still equity funds. A percent will fall off and not do investing. I bet, however, most will continue in some form and many will find better alternatives.

At the same time, I agree with all of those that tell you to not participate in a throw down. "No thanks", is a complete response. In some situations, when I had to actually continue to deal with the person, I will ask about their net worth. Normally it is low, much lower than mine, and very much lower than my goals. The the follow up is "why would you presume to give me financial advice"?

student
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by student » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:48 am

I agree with others that there is no need to debate the issue unless you are still open to the idea of investing with her.

Da5id
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by Da5id » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:57 am

A few relevant quotes on why you shouldn't engage with her:

"The only winning move is not to play"

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it"

Identifying something that beats TSM in retrospect is trivial. Identifying something that beats it prospectively is not. I'd argue that any salesman worth their salt given enough time can persuade you that black is white and up is down if you aren't confident enough about your position...

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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by dbr » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:13 am

You would be an idiot to sit down and argue with this person. If she is insistent then your friendship is over as she intends to use you to get money out of your pocket and into hers while causing you significant financial harm. While she may not understand this, the success of her career depends on perpetuating this with anyone she can get ahold of and it is not likely she is going to be convinced that she should quit and find a different profession.

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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by TheTimeLord » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:16 am

Opool8830 wrote: โ†‘
Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:27 pm
Hey all!

New to the forum but a huge, life long fan of Bogle. For almost a year, a friend (term used quite loosely. knew each other as children) of mine has been asking me to come to various jerry rigged events that I know are actually schemes to talk to be about Primerica investing and down streaming. I have avoided and lied about why I couldn't come for ages. Finally, this last time, I just told her honestly that I wasn't interested in Primerica, as I thought the loads and actively managed funds strategy made them a much worse investment that no load, passively managed index funds. We've gone back and forth a few times via facebook and we're finally just sitting down for coffee later this week. I was wondering if anyone has a resource for comparing the 20 year returns of two funds? I can find ten year charts, but nothing longer. Or better yet, the load adjusted returns for two funds? She's advocating that I would be better off having invested in aceix than vtsmx, using some truly questionable return data that I am nearly certain does not account for the load and higher management fees.

Beyond being equipped with those two figures, are there are particular statistics you would arm yourself with? I'm tired of these sorts of half informed income seekers passing some simple test and feeling like they're qualified to tell people what to do with their money, when they seem--in my experience--to be high UNDER qualified to be doing so! Thanks in advance.
Sounds like a tremendous waste of time and energy to me. You need nothing beyond "Thanks for your interest but this is my money and my decision I already have a financial plan and I am really not interested in using Primerica". Also, make sure you buy her coffee.
Run, You Clever Boy!

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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by JW-Retired » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:17 am

Opool8830 wrote: โ†‘
Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:27 pm
Beyond being equipped with those two figures, are there are particular statistics you would arm yourself with?
If you can't say no without arming yourself with statistics to convince her you are right and she is wrong, then IMO you are doomed. You better cancel the meeting.

Welcome to the Forum!
JW
Retired at Last

NotWhoYouThink
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:23 am

Piling on here....

If she can't find some Primerica funds, and combinations of funds, that outperformed funds like TSM or a 60/40 or 80/20 mix if stocks and bonds over the last 5, 10, and 20 years, she is incompetent and will soon be fired.

There is a back office at all these places that puts together straw man portfolios using the wisdom of 20/20 hindsight that outperform everyone. Then they train the sales staff to use these retroactively compiled portfolios to sell services. The business model is as old as the hills.

She may be weak at math and analysis, and good at interpersonal relations and sales. If that is the case, she will very sincerely try to help you, using the charts and graphs and scripts provided to her though company training. She won't be listening to your analysis, she will be trying to break down your defenses. This isn't Lincoln-Douglas debating. There is no judging panel that proves you are right. Even though you are.

Go to the most expensive restaurant in town, and buy yourself a nice lunch. Buy yourself a nice glass of wine or mojito to enjoy with your lunch. It will be much cheaper than lunch with this saleswoman.

DetroitRick
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by DetroitRick » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:50 am

Pretty much agree with most others posting here. Two statements in your post kind of answer your question - don't bother. You said that your were tired of these types of folks ("half-informed income seekers", I love that!) and that, essentially, this was not really a friend. Save your time and energy.

I've spoken to (and actually interviewed with once) Primerica several times in the past. I try to remain open to ideas that run counter to my own - but these contacts stretched my tolerance well beyond my limits. As with most MLM businesses, reasoning with them is sort of like (maybe exactly like) trying to talk somebody out of a cult. No benefit to you, no reasoning with them.

Having exhausted my own patience with these peusdo-presentations, now when dealing with these types I try to be as nice as I can, but as mean as I need to be. In a smarter world, this type of marketing effort would not exist.

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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by flamesabers » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:53 am

OP,

You already told her you're not interested with investing in Primerica. The fact she is meeting with you suggests she still thinks there is a chance she can change your mind on this. You don't have to justify your investment decisions with any sales reps. If she won't take no for an answer, that's her problem, not yours. You hold all the cards in this situation as it is your money at stake.

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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by KyleAAA » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:54 am

Who cares which you would have been better off investing in 20 years ago? You don't have a time machine. What we know is that cost predicts returns amongst similarly-allocated funds better than any other factor. VTSMX is the clear forward-looking winner and it isn't even close.

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by DaftInvestor » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:10 am

Don't waste your time. Cancel the meeting and move onto something more productive.

Opool8830
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by Opool8830 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:20 am

Hey all,

Thanks for the feedback. For those concerned, there is literally not a think she could say that would ever convince me to change investment strategies. Like Eva. ๐Ÿ˜œ I never mind discussing investing with people. I'm mostly just interested to see what kind of pitch she makes me and how she addresses certain basic facts. This girl really is a nice person and I don't think she MEANS to donpeople harm, but I want to know how much she even understands about what she's selling. I guess it's kinda a train wreck I can't look away from. I literally told her, "there is literally nothing you could say to me that would convince me this is a better strategy. I'll be interested to see how much knowledge she actually been given if true investing, rather than just cherry picked facts about load funds. With our background and personalities, it'll just be a lovely investment debate. I'll consider cancelling, though. Positively no concern I'll leave that discussion a orimeric customer or rep, though. ๐Ÿ˜œ

Jack FFR1846
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:23 am

Da5id wrote: โ†‘
Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:57 am
"The only winning move is not to play"
Thank you Joshua
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

aristotelian
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by aristotelian » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:37 am

Opool8830 wrote: โ†‘
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:20 am
Hey all,

Thanks for the feedback. For those concerned, there is literally not a think she could say that would ever convince me to change investment strategies. Like Eva. ๐Ÿ˜œ I never mind discussing investing with people. I'm mostly just interested to see what kind of pitch she makes me and how she addresses certain basic facts. This girl really is a nice person and I don't think she MEANS to donpeople harm, but I want to know how much she even understands about what she's selling. I guess it's kinda a train wreck I can't look away from. I literally told her, "there is literally nothing you could say to me that would convince me this is a better strategy. I'll be interested to see how much knowledge she actually been given if true investing, rather than just cherry picked facts about load funds. With our background and personalities, it'll just be a lovely investment debate. I'll consider cancelling, though. Positively no concern I'll leave that discussion a orimeric customer or rep, though. ๐Ÿ˜œ
You don't do salespeople any favors by talking to them out of sympathy. You are just wasting her time. It is not going to help her to point out that her company's business model is fundamentally wrong.

dbr
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by dbr » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:43 am

Opool8830 wrote: โ†‘
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:20 am
Hey all,

Thanks for the feedback. For those concerned, there is literally not a think she could say that would ever convince me to change investment strategies. Like Eva. ๐Ÿ˜œ I never mind discussing investing with people. I'm mostly just interested to see what kind of pitch she makes me and how she addresses certain basic facts. This girl really is a nice person and I don't think she MEANS to donpeople harm, but I want to know how much she even understands about what she's selling. I guess it's kinda a train wreck I can't look away from. I literally told her, "there is literally nothing you could say to me that would convince me this is a better strategy. I'll be interested to see how much knowledge she actually been given if true investing, rather than just cherry picked facts about load funds. With our background and personalities, it'll just be a lovely investment debate. I'll consider cancelling, though. Positively no concern I'll leave that discussion a orimeric customer or rep, though. ๐Ÿ˜œ
You might do her, her clients, and the world a favor if you talked her out of this profession altogether. Of course, there would just be another parasite in her place.

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flamesabers
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by flamesabers » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:48 am

aristotelian wrote: โ†‘
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:37 am
Opool8830 wrote: โ†‘
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:20 am
Hey all,

Thanks for the feedback. For those concerned, there is literally not a think she could say that would ever convince me to change investment strategies. Like Eva. ๐Ÿ˜œ I never mind discussing investing with people. I'm mostly just interested to see what kind of pitch she makes me and how she addresses certain basic facts. This girl really is a nice person and I don't think she MEANS to donpeople harm, but I want to know how much she even understands about what she's selling. I guess it's kinda a train wreck I can't look away from. I literally told her, "there is literally nothing you could say to me that would convince me this is a better strategy. I'll be interested to see how much knowledge she actually been given if true investing, rather than just cherry picked facts about load funds. With our background and personalities, it'll just be a lovely investment debate. I'll consider cancelling, though. Positively no concern I'll leave that discussion a orimeric customer or rep, though. ๐Ÿ˜œ
You don't do salespeople any favors by talking to them out of sympathy. You are just wasting her time. It is not going to help her to point out that her company's business model is fundamentally wrong.
I agree. Even if she accepts your flat out rejection of Primerica's investments, you might be put in the awkward situation of her asking you for referrals. :oops:
dbr wrote: โ†‘
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:43 am
You might do her, her clients, and the world a favor if you talked her out of this profession altogether. Of course, there would just be another parasite in her place.
If I remember correctly, the washout rate for Primerica's sales reps is pretty high. A lot of Primerica's sales reps give it up once they realize how hard it is to make money under such a system.

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Runalong
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by Runalong » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:23 pm

Primerica's been a great investment!

Up 250% since 2010 (market up 115%) plus dividends! (PRI)

Tongue-in-cheek (though my stats are valid) but seriously folks: I had a relative who did Primerica for awhile. If one of their salesman can convince a young couple that is saving nothing for retirement to start putting money in one of their funds monthly, they probably ARE doing them a big favor. Sure, they'd be doing them a bigger favor to tell them about index funds, but how many of you are going to spend your evenings going house-to-house to everyone you know (and all of their friends) to spend an hour with each of them trying to convince them to invest monthly in Vanguard?

Pinotage
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by Pinotage » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:29 pm

Opool8830 wrote: โ†‘
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:20 am
Hey all,

Thanks for the feedback. For those concerned, there is literally not a think she could say that would ever convince me to change investment strategies. Like Eva. ๐Ÿ˜œ I never mind discussing investing with people. I'm mostly just interested to see what kind of pitch she makes me and how she addresses certain basic facts. This girl really is a nice person and I don't think she MEANS to donpeople harm, but I want to know how much she even understands about what she's selling. I guess it's kinda a train wreck I can't look away from. I literally told her, "there is literally nothing you could say to me that would convince me this is a better strategy. I'll be interested to see how much knowledge she actually been given if true investing, rather than just cherry picked facts about load funds. With our background and personalities, it'll just be a lovely investment debate. I'll consider cancelling, though. Positively no concern I'll leave that discussion a orimeric customer or rep, though. ๐Ÿ˜œ
Dance with the Devil, the Devil don't change.

Will you?

JW-Retired
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by JW-Retired » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:28 pm

Opool8830 wrote: โ†‘
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:20 am
Hey all,

Thanks for the feedback. For those concerned, there is literally not a thing she could say that would ever convince me to change investment strategies. Like Eva. ๐Ÿ˜œ I never mind discussing investing with people. I'm mostly just interested to see what kind of pitch she makes me and how she addresses certain basic facts. This girl really is a nice person and I don't think she MEANS to donpeople harm, but I want to know how much she even understands about what she's selling. I guess it's kinda a train wreck I can't look away from. I literally told her, "there is literally nothing you could say to me that would convince me this is a better strategy. I'll be interested to see how much knowledge she actually been given if true investing, rather than just cherry picked facts about load funds. With our background and personalities, it'll just be a lovely investment debate. I'll consider cancelling, though. Positively no concern I'll leave that discussion a orimeric customer or rep, though. ๐Ÿ˜œ
Keep in mind that the company has dealt with many thousands like yourself. Sometimes they will sell you on something you later can't believe you fell for.
Please let us know what happens.
JW
Retired at Last

pkcrafter
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by pkcrafter » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:22 pm

Opool, there are several problems here.

-ACEIX has a front-end load of 5.5%
-The fund is a 65/35 balanced fund.
-Fund turnover is 93% and the fund is very tax-inefficient.
-Expense ratio is 0.80%
- your "friend" cherry picked the time for historical comparison. ACEIX did beat the total market from the tech crash and for the next several years, but TSM has beaten ACEIX over the past 10 year as would be expected.
-Vanguard's Wellington (60/40) has beaten ACEIX
-Buying a mutual fund through an insurance company will likely add additional layers of fees, not to mention the annuity she will try to sell you.
-Then there will no doubt be a management fee on top of the expense ratio and the load.

Good luck,

Paul
When times are good, investors tend to forget about risk and focus on opportunity. When times are bad, investors tend to forget about opportunity and focus on risk.

virtue
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by virtue » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:16 am

Runalong wrote: โ†‘
Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:23 pm
Primerica's been a great investment!

Up 250% since 2010 (market up 115%) plus dividends! (PRI)

Tongue-in-cheek (though my stats are valid) but seriously folks: I had a relative who did Primerica for awhile. If one of their salesman can convince a young couple that is saving nothing for retirement to start putting money in one of their funds monthly, they probably ARE doing them a big favor. Sure, they'd be doing them a bigger favor to tell them about index funds, but how many of you are going to spend your evenings going house-to-house to everyone you know (and all of their friends) to spend an hour with each of them trying to convince them to invest monthly in Vanguard?
You don't need to go house to house when the people you're selling to are recent recruits.

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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by JW-Retired » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:19 pm

JW-Retired wrote: โ†‘
Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:17 am
Opool8830 wrote: โ†‘
Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:27 pm
Beyond being equipped with those two figures, are there are particular statistics you would arm yourself with?
If you can't say no without arming yourself with statistics to convince her you are right and she is wrong, then IMO you are doomed. You better cancel the meeting.

Welcome to the Forum!
JW
Looks like we lost another one to the dark side. The 2 posts in this thread are the first and last from Opool8830.
JW
Retired at Last

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sergeant
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by sergeant » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:13 pm

You can lead a horse to water... :|
Lincoln 3 EOW!

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Throwing Down with a Primerica Advisor

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:35 pm

You always have to read the fine print:
Performance shown at NAV does not include applicable front-end (max 5.50%) or CDSC sales charges, which would have reduced the performance. source: https://www.invesco.com/portal/site/us/ ... ncome-fund
Also, this is hardly an apples to apples comparison. Look at the style maps for both:

Aceix (source: https://www.invesco.com/portal/site/us/ ... ncome-fund):
Image

Vtsmx (source: https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... 0085#tab=2):
Image

Do the two style boxes look the same? No, they don't. So why is the rep. comparing the two? That's disingenous, a false equivalence. So even if primerica's fund did better than vtsmx, so what? They're not the same funds. Aceix is large value essentially and vtsmx is large blend. Aceix goes back to 8/3/1960, while vtsmx only goes back to 4/27/1992.

while this compares aceix with vtsmx as far back as we can go for vtsmx (4/27/1992):

Image

source: http://quotes.morningstar.com/chart/fun ... A%5B%5D%7D

This compares vfiax (the S&P500) which goes back to 8/31/1976:

Image

source: http://quotes.morningstar.com/chart/fun ... A%5B%5D%7D

So the S&P500 beat aceix back to its inception, while the vtsmx slightly did worse (by around $2600 on a $10,000 investment). What will happen in the future? No one knows with aceix because it's actively managed. But you're guaranteed to not underperform the index with Vanguard. Best of luck.
"Invest we must." -- Jack Bogle | โ€œThe purpose of investing is not to simply optimise returns and make yourself rich. The purpose is not to die poor.โ€ -- William Bernstein

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