Electric car in evacuation situation

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732002
Posts: 54
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by 732002 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:15 pm

just frank wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:57 am
732002 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:50 am
TBillT wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:50 am
As far as emergency situations, flexibility wins. So if gasoline is unavailable, electric wins, and vice versa. I believe electric vehicles helped in Japan for the tsunami recovery. Hybrids such as Prius can be very handy for running an inverter to get back up power for the home. I thought you were going to ask if electric vehicles get more damaged in flood waters...guess we have to ask insurance cos.
I use my Toyota generator for charging my electric RC planes as well as backup power.
You get about 1000W from the 12V and several times more if you go to the work to tap in to
the high volt batteries.
I have a 1500W sine wave inverter hooked up to my 2013 LEAF, and backfeed all the 120V circuits in my house during an outage. With a woodstove for heat, a campstove for cooking and a big HW tank, we can carry on for a couple days without any problem, and have.

Cost....$600 above the cost of the EV.

Evacuation....I'd take the gas-mobile.

Floods.....the LEAF wading depth rating is greater than most ICE cars. The battery is hermetically sealed and ventilated through a 'snorkel'.

If your back feeding your house with a suicide cord there is a risk that you may injure a linemen unless you isolate your house from the grid.

kmox
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by kmox » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:16 pm

Interesting topic, because my wife and I, whose only car is an EV, had this exact conversation when Irma hit. My response was, with the caveat that if we were living in FL (we dont'), I would put the car on Amtrak's auto train and take a ride north to DC. In PA, where we do live, it is a little bit more of a problem because there are so few superchargers around. Even most of the Nissan dealers don't have them. Although, we could get to MD easy enough, and they are plentiful down there. The downside, of course, is that with a Leaf, you can only go 120 miles (doing no more than 60mph) and the supercharge will take an hour to fully recharge (this is based on many trials). So, two hours driving-one hour charging would take some time to get very far.

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just frank
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by just frank » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:52 pm

732002 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:15 pm
just frank wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:57 am
732002 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:50 am
TBillT wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:50 am
As far as emergency situations, flexibility wins. So if gasoline is unavailable, electric wins, and vice versa. I believe electric vehicles helped in Japan for the tsunami recovery. Hybrids such as Prius can be very handy for running an inverter to get back up power for the home. I thought you were going to ask if electric vehicles get more damaged in flood waters...guess we have to ask insurance cos.
I use my Toyota generator for charging my electric RC planes as well as backup power.
You get about 1000W from the 12V and several times more if you go to the work to tap in to
the high volt batteries.
I have a 1500W sine wave inverter hooked up to my 2013 LEAF, and backfeed all the 120V circuits in my house during an outage. With a woodstove for heat, a campstove for cooking and a big HW tank, we can carry on for a couple days without any problem, and have.

Cost....$600 above the cost of the EV.

Evacuation....I'd take the gas-mobile.

Floods.....the LEAF wading depth rating is greater than most ICE cars. The battery is hermetically sealed and ventilated through a 'snorkel'.

If your back feeding your house with a suicide cord there is a risk that you may injure a linemen unless you isolate your house from the grid.
You make an important point, and I assure that I have a code compliant, manual disconnect in place.

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just frank
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by just frank » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:01 pm

thangngo wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:20 am
Valuethinker wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:18 am
A prediction I cannot be held to? By 2050 it will be difficult or impossible to drive an ICE vehicle and very expensive at the very least. Indeed I could see that by 2040. It will have become societally unacceptable. You read it from some stranger on the internets ;-).
I believe it's the exact opposite. When there are many electric cars, gasoline price will decrease so low due to supply/demand. That'd make it cheap to drive ICE car. I'll upgrade to a V8 (or hell even V12) and pay less for gas than I do now. :sharebeer I promise that I'll floor it and smoke folks who drive electric car (literally) just for kicks. :mrgreen: That South Park episode is hilarious LOL smog...
Until local ordinances decide to charge an ICE usage fee to discourage their use. And the used ICE car market collapses. And then it gets hard to find good parts. Etc.

For example: the ICE/horse tipping point was about 1915.

Table 1
U.S. Equine Population During
Mechanization of Agriculture
and Transportation
Year Number of Horses and Mules
1900 21,531,635
1905 22,077,000
1910 24,042,882
1915 26,493,000
1920 25,199,552
1925 22,081,520
1930 18,885,856
1935 16,676,000
1940 13,931,531
1945 11,629,000
1950 7,604,000
1955 4,309,000
1960 3,089,000

from: http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/pdf ... 7_ch10.pdf

I suspect that Hay got pretty cheap there at some point. But good buggy whips are very dear nowadays.

emoore
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by emoore » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:04 pm

thangngo wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:20 am
Valuethinker wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:18 am
A prediction I cannot be held to? By 2050 it will be difficult or impossible to drive an ICE vehicle and very expensive at the very least. Indeed I could see that by 2040. It will have become societally unacceptable. You read it from some stranger on the internets ;-).
I believe it's the exact opposite. When there are many electric cars, gasoline price will decrease so low due to supply/demand. That'd make it cheap to drive ICE car. I'll upgrade to a V8 (or hell even V12) and pay less for gas than I do now. :sharebeer I promise that I'll floor it and smoke folks who drive electric car (literally) just for kicks. :mrgreen: That South Park episode is hilarious LOL smog...
Doubtful. If regulations doesn't make it difficult to use gas then the market will. If there isn't much demand for gas and oil why would companies invest billions of dollars drilling and refining it?

Chuck
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by Chuck » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:41 pm

A plug-in hybrid gives you more options. I can drive 500+ miles on gas (40MPG), or I can drive 20 miles, charge for 2 hours, and repeat. (Average speed including charge time is about 8 mph!!) So if there's gas, I'll get there. If there's no gas, but there's electricity, I'll get there... eventually.

As others have said, the engine stops when you're stuck in traffic. If you're not particular about climate control (as in... leave it off!) you can go pretty much indefinitely in any traffic. What will happen is the car will use electricity to crawl the 5 feet every 2-3 minutes. Once the battery goes below a threshold, the engine will start for a few minutes to charge it back up, then turn off again. Very efficient. You will run out of food and water before you run out of gas.

Also, using the gas cans in my shed, I can drive about 1200 miles. If I'm not out of danger yet, there isn't much hope.

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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:47 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:38 am
Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:29 am
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:21 am
Point taken. But, I think you take my point also. I'll be in a better mood about this in a while. In the meantime, have at it :D
Actually, I don't.
Okay, have it your way. Scientist or engineer, meme without basis, whatever. I took your point, you claim not to take mine (of which claim I'm dubious, try to think instead of argue your point, but so be it). IMO, this topic has become almost like politics in that people talk past each other, few, if any, opinions are changed even one degree: angry feelings develop. Roger and out.
I'm sorry if you think I'm being unpleasant. I really didn't get your point.
This week's fortune cookie: "The stock market may be your ticket to success." I sure hope so!

Valuethinker
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by Valuethinker » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:06 pm

thangngo wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:20 am
Valuethinker wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:18 am
A prediction I cannot be held to? By 2050 it will be difficult or impossible to drive an ICE vehicle and very expensive at the very least. Indeed I could see that by 2040. It will have become societally unacceptable. You read it from some stranger on the internets ;-).
I believe it's the exact opposite. When there are many electric cars, gasoline price will decrease so low due to supply/demand. That'd make it cheap to drive ICE car. I'll upgrade to a V8 (or hell even V12) and pay less for gas than I do now. :sharebeer I promise that I'll floor it and smoke folks who drive electric car (literally) just for kicks. :mrgreen: That South Park episode is hilarious LOL smog...
I agree gasoline Will be cheap. The fracking technology appears to put a cap on oil at 60 dollars a barrel. Ex geopolitical disruptions.

However we have run out of time on this. Things are changing too fast.

I encourage you to read Dieter Helm's Burn Out: the end game for fossil fuels.

Helm is a respected energy economist at Oxford University. He is an advisor to the UK government. The book is mostly about what a world w very cheap energy looks like and the impacts that will have on fossil fuel producing countries like Russia and Saudi Arabia (pretty bad), the US (net positive) and on oil and gas producers and utilities.

Valuethinker
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by Valuethinker » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:13 pm

emoore wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:04 pm
thangngo wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:20 am
Valuethinker wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:18 am
A prediction I cannot be held to? By 2050 it will be difficult or impossible to drive an ICE vehicle and very expensive at the very least. Indeed I could see that by 2040. It will have become societally unacceptable. You read it from some stranger on the internets ;-).
I believe it's the exact opposite. When there are many electric cars, gasoline price will decrease so low due to supply/demand. That'd make it cheap to drive ICE car. I'll upgrade to a V8 (or hell even V12) and pay less for gas than I do now. :sharebeer I promise that I'll floor it and smoke folks who drive electric car (literally) just for kicks. :mrgreen: That South Park episode is hilarious LOL smog...
Doubtful. If regulations doesn't make it difficult to use gas then the market will. If there isn't much demand for gas and oil why would companies invest billions of dollars drilling and refining it?
Fracking has changed the economics. There appears to be an essentially limitless supply of oil at around The 60 dollar a barrel Mark.

Oil is becoming more like a manufactured commodity like aluminum where supply reacts to demand. Or like forest products.

Spencer Dale, chief economist at Bp has a good article on this. I cannot search for the link tonight but may remember to tomorrow.

Oil will be cheap. But that does not mean we will burn it.

Valuethinker
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by Valuethinker » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:22 pm

kmox wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:16 pm
Interesting topic, because my wife and I, whose only car is an EV, had this exact conversation when Irma hit. My response was, with the caveat that if we were living in FL (we dont'), I would put the car on Amtrak's auto train and take a ride north to DC. In PA, where we do live, it is a little bit more of a problem because there are so few superchargers around. Even most of the Nissan dealers don't have them. Although, we could get to MD easy enough, and they are plentiful down there. The downside, of course, is that with a Leaf, you can only go 120 miles (doing no more than 60mph) and the supercharge will take an hour to fully recharge (this is based on many trials). So, two hours driving-one hour charging would take some time to get very far.
I doubt that would be very practical. Amtrak that is.

The reality is we don't use our cars very often for emergency evacuations. Probably more important to have a generator at home for when The grid goes down.

In North America The ownership of c a second car that is seldom used But has long distance capability is very cheap.

Good on you btw for on k y having an electric vehicle. Trailblazer. I am not yet so brave although there are fairly cheap btw i3s around w the range extender. 2 year old one for around 19k GBP ie 28k USD say (cars tend to cost in pounds h here what they cost you in dollars). Actually that's more like 18 months old.

The used car market is flooded w diesel cars which had been half of sales. The public has got the message that the environmental issues are too great. New restrictions are coming. Used diesel car prices are down 17 per cent.

Easy Rhino
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Location: San Diego

Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by Easy Rhino » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:07 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:15 pm
I remember reading that one of the struggles that makers of pure-electric cars have is that windshield wipers use a significant amount of power and reduce range considerably if they are running; that could be a problem in evacuating in a bad-weather situation. I suppose that in the next few days we will have a change to learn about the actual experiences of people evacuating.
Huh interesting, anecdotally my mileage seemed to be works in my Spark EV in the rain. but i'm in San Diego so it's not tested that often. I was guessing it was due to waters impact on the tires (either drag or slipping)

Valuethinker
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by Valuethinker » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:47 am

queso wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:00 pm
Pajamas wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:54 am
queso wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:38 am
+1. In an emergency bugout/evac situation I'll have 4 or 5 five gallon gas cans strapped to my roof rack.
Hope you at least cover them with one of those blue tarps and don't have to leave your vehicle unattended. Sometimes law and order breaks down in emergency situations, to one degree or another, especially when necessities are in short supply.
I totally agree that law and order is one of the first things to break down in disaster scenarios. That's why I don't have any expectation of relying on law enforcement to protect me or my belongings. When these types of situations arise you are truly on your own..at least for a while.
You know, I am always amazed at how little law and order breaks down. How much people try to help each other. Look at all those scenes from Harley- -this in America's 4th largest metropolis, with vast diversity in income, ethnicity etc.

There were all these terrible tales of Katrina, but actually most of them turned out to be incorrect. The stadium was not pleasant, but it wasn't some circle of Dante's Inferno. A lot of the "looting" was actually of food that would have spoiled, or of things like water which were desperately needed, and the stores were not manned.

I am not aware of any mass breakdown of law and order after Sandy, Harley or Irma. Maybe we would not have heard after Irma, yet. I mean there have been some holdups, some breakins, but, generally, it's just ordinary folk trying to deal with an extraordinary situation.

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