Electric car in evacuation situation

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artibug
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Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by artibug » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:19 am

After watching a lot of CNN this weekend for Hurricane Irma and mass evacuation in FL, I start to wonder if electric cars (I.e. The new Nissan Leaf 2018) would be a better choice to get stuck in stop and go traffic for hours in this kind of situation/traffic pattern (if you only have 1 full tank of gas and no more open gas stations en route). Obviously we hope we will never be in this type of situation ever, but what says you? What car will you pick? Electric or gas cars?

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by DaftInvestor » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:22 am

I can stock extra gas by filling some cans. If it is a full electric car (non-hybrid) how would you stock extra electricity? You need to drive out of state an the normal 3 hour drive will take you 12 hours - will your electric-charge last? Will there be a place to stop and charge on the way?
Makes me want to stick with gas.

hicabob
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by hicabob » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:25 am

More and more gas cars nowadays have the option to stop the engine automatically when stopped then start up again when your foot is taken off the brake which would help in the hours of stop and go scenario. The Grand Cherokee I rented a couple weeks ago did this flawlessly.

Inframan4712
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by Inframan4712 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:28 am

DaftInvestor wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:22 am
I can stock extra gas by filling some cans. If it is a full electric car (non-hybrid) how would you stock extra electricity? You need to drive out of state an the normal 3 hour drive will take you 12 hours - will your electric-charge last? Will there be a place to stop and charge on the way?
Makes me want to stick with gas.
I thought of the same thing as a major issue in a few years when there are many more electric vehicles on the road.

The flip side of that is that if the grid is down, the gas stations can't pump gas anyway. And before the grid goes down (in the case of impending hurricane) the gas stations run out of gas like they did a few days ago in many places, per news reports.

queso
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by queso » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:38 am

DaftInvestor wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:22 am
I can stock extra gas by filling some cans. If it is a full electric car (non-hybrid) how would you stock extra electricity? You need to drive out of state an the normal 3 hour drive will take you 12 hours - will your electric-charge last? Will there be a place to stop and charge on the way?
Makes me want to stick with gas.
+1. In an emergency bugout/evac situation I'll have 4 or 5 five gallon gas cans strapped to my roof rack.

TBillT
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by TBillT » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:50 am

As far as emergency situations, flexibility wins. So if gasoline is unavailable, electric wins, and vice versa. I believe electric vehicles helped in Japan for the tsunami recovery. Hybrids such as Prius can be very handy for running an inverter to get back up power for the home. I thought you were going to ask if electric vehicles get more damaged in flood waters...guess we have to ask insurance cos.

open_circuit
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by open_circuit » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:59 am

Electric towing a trailer with a gas generator and some extra gas for the generator. It's a DIY hybrid configuration.

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by smackboy1 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:26 am

EV w/ optional ICE range extender e.g. BMW i3 REx. Plug in to recharge and carry 10 gallons of spare gas.
Disclaimer: nothing written here should be taken as legal advice, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by BBBob » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:41 pm

What was the distance that people evacuated? With roads clogged and gasoline stations shutting down, I wonder if it makes a difference if you have a 200+mile range (Bolt, Tesla) or a 100+ mile range (Rav4-EV) vs gas.

Also, Tesla apparently upgraded range wirelessly to help owners evacuate.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/hurri ... ma-n800231

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by nisiprius » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:15 pm

Some hybrid cars use very little fuel "idling" in traffic IF the A/C and/or heating are turned off.

I remember reading that one of the struggles that makers of pure-electric cars have is that windshield wipers use a significant amount of power and reduce range considerably if they are running; that could be a problem in evacuating in a bad-weather situation. I suppose that in the next few days we will have a change to learn about the actual experiences of people evacuating.

As I understand it, the authorities try to encourage people to evacuate over short distances, from homes in low-lying areas to shelters that are on higher ground in the same city... tens of miles, not hundreds... so you might not need a huge range.
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by dwickenh » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:24 pm

TBillT wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:50 am
As far as emergency situations, flexibility wins. So if gasoline is unavailable, electric wins, and vice versa. I believe electric vehicles helped in Japan for the tsunami recovery. Hybrids such as Prius can be very handy for running an inverter to get back up power for the home. I thought you were going to ask if electric vehicles get more damaged in flood waters...guess we have to ask insurance cos.

/quote]

Many state laws require the flooded vehicle be totaled if the water reaches the bottom of the dash. Many are totaled before that due to on board electronics getting wet. Electric car would likely be to have more flood damage.

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dm200
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by dm200 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:33 pm

artibug wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:19 am
After watching a lot of CNN this weekend for Hurricane Irma and mass evacuation in FL, I start to wonder if electric cars (I.e. The new Nissan Leaf 2018) would be a better choice to get stuck in stop and go traffic for hours in this kind of situation/traffic pattern (if you only have 1 full tank of gas and no more open gas stations en route). Obviously we hope we will never be in this type of situation ever, but what says you? What car will you pick? Electric or gas cars?
I don't have an electric or a hybrid, but my guess would be a hybrid with a long distance before refueling. If there were no stop and go, then I suspect a regular car with good highway mileage and a large fuel tank.

The other issue with evacuation is that if you have multiple cars, you may want to evacuate all the cars to reduce or eliminate flood damage to a vehicle left behind.

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by queso » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:39 pm

dm200 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:33 pm
artibug wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:19 am
After watching a lot of CNN this weekend for Hurricane Irma and mass evacuation in FL, I start to wonder if electric cars (I.e. The new Nissan Leaf 2018) would be a better choice to get stuck in stop and go traffic for hours in this kind of situation/traffic pattern (if you only have 1 full tank of gas and no more open gas stations en route). Obviously we hope we will never be in this type of situation ever, but what says you? What car will you pick? Electric or gas cars?
I don't have an electric or a hybrid, but my guess would be a hybrid with a long distance before refueling. If there were no stop and go, then I suspect a regular car with good highway mileage and a large fuel tank.

The other issue with evacuation is that if you have multiple cars, you may want to evacuate all the cars to reduce or eliminate flood damage to a vehicle left behind.
Multiple cars also allow you to carry more belongings and provide a measure of redundancy that might prove critical in an emergency evacuation (i.e. ditch the one that broke/ran out of fuel and all pile into vehicle #2). Trailers are really handy in this scenario as well.

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by mmmodem » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:41 pm

TBillT wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:50 am
As far as emergency situations, flexibility wins. So if gasoline is unavailable, electric wins, and vice versa. I believe electric vehicles helped in Japan for the tsunami recovery. Hybrids such as Prius can be very handy for running an inverter to get back up power for the home. I thought you were going to ask if electric vehicles get more damaged in flood waters...guess we have to ask insurance cos.
+1
I remember there were long lines for gasoline after the last major earthquake here. An EV would've skirted the problem with ease. We have one of each so we have the flexibility of both energy sources. The Prius is also a very efficient generator albeit low power as the engine can run for several days on a tank of gas idling.

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by aqan » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:11 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:22 am
I can stock extra gas by filling some cans. If it is a full electric car (non-hybrid) how would you stock extra electricity? You need to drive out of state an the normal 3 hour drive will take you 12 hours - will your electric-charge last? Will there be a place to stop and charge on the way?
Makes me want to stick with gas.
Can you not carry a portable generator? Just wondering. It may take a while to charge but should ease the anxiety:)
Btw you could take any exit find a electric outlet and with some patience you can top up.
Not a good solution but atleast you won't be stranded

queso
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by queso » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:19 pm

aqan wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:11 pm
DaftInvestor wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:22 am
I can stock extra gas by filling some cans. If it is a full electric car (non-hybrid) how would you stock extra electricity? You need to drive out of state an the normal 3 hour drive will take you 12 hours - will your electric-charge last? Will there be a place to stop and charge on the way?
Makes me want to stick with gas.
Can you not carry a portable generator? Just wondering. It may take a while to charge but should ease the anxiety:)
Btw you could take any exit find a electric outlet and with some patience you can top up.
Not a good solution but atleast you won't be stranded
Given the EV to charging station ratio and the likelihood of power outages in an evacuation situation I think I'll take my chances with an ICE vehicle. :happy
Last edited by queso on Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

madbrain
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by madbrain » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:19 pm

A short range EV should not be your only car if you are worried about this sort of situation.

Many if not most households have more than one vehicle, at least one of which is an ICE.

We have a Bolt (100% EV) and a Volt (PHEV) . The later can take either electricity or gas. This is the one we would use if we had to evacuate.

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by madbrain » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:23 pm

aqan wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:11 pm
DaftInvestor wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:22 am
I can stock extra gas by filling some cans. If it is a full electric car (non-hybrid) how would you stock extra electricity? You need to drive out of state an the normal 3 hour drive will take you 12 hours - will your electric-charge last? Will there be a place to stop and charge on the way?
Makes me want to stick with gas.
Can you not carry a portable generator? Just wondering. It may take a while to charge but should ease the anxiety:)
Btw you could take any exit find a electric outlet and with some patience you can top up.
Not a good solution but atleast you won't be stranded
Yes, you could have a portable generator with a portable EVSE. I did math a while back and the efficiency was something comparable to 11 MPG.
Emissions will be horrendous as well. And you would only get L1 or low L2 charging speed, meaning very slow charging with most EVs - between 3 and 10 miles added per hour of charge. If you want faster charging, you would need a bigger generator with higher kW peak. At that point, it might no longer fit it in your car, or at least not with passengers in it. It would be costlier too. This is not something you really want to consider, IMO.

SimonJester
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by SimonJester » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:03 am

BBBob wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:41 pm
What was the distance that people evacuated? With roads clogged and gasoline stations shutting down, I wonder if it makes a difference if you have a 200+mile range (Bolt, Tesla) or a 100+ mile range (Rav4-EV) vs gas.

Also, Tesla apparently upgraded range wirelessly to help owners evacuate.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/hurri ... ma-n800231
Wow so in theory they could also do the reverse and decide to restrict the amount of battery you are allowed to use and shut down your Tesla remotely.

From the article they unlock access to more of the Tesla's battery, I find this part interesting:
"In fact, it already offered owners the ability to upgrade their vehicle — for a price ranging from $4,500 to $9,000 — to get access to the full 75 kWh capacity. That could be done with a simple, over-the-air update. "
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by TomatoTomahto » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:16 am

SimonJester wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:03 am
Wow so in theory they could also do the reverse and decide to restrict the amount of battery you are allowed to use and shut down your Tesla remotely.
From the article they unlock access to more of the Tesla's battery, I find this part interesting:
"In fact, it already offered owners the ability to upgrade their vehicle — for a price ranging from $4,500 to $9,000 — to get access to the full 75 kWh capacity. That could be done with a simple, over-the-air update. "
If they want to disable your car, there are more direct routes to doing that. OnStar, I believe, can do that also. IRL, absent a warrant, they won't.

To the second point: there are many software-controlled aspects to a Tesla. The AutoPilot is installed, but not activated if you haven't paid for it. Some batteries, as the article stated, are software limited (which is actually a plus to some owners, for technical inside-baseball reasons). I half-jokingly say that my car is an iPad with wheels.

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:29 am

Very early preparations and evacuation wins all here. If I were on the Keys, my Wrangler has a tow-hitch rack that would store my 6 six gallon gas cans. If I leave early enough to get my normal highway mileage of 20 mpg, I'd hit DC before I'd have to stop to refill. With stop and go, I don't know......somewhere mid Georgia.

There isn't a good advantage of electric, hybrid or ICE without extraordinary preparations. If the road is fully clogged with cars, what are you going to do? I don't know Florida beaches well enough, but would my stock Wrangler be able to drive north completely on beaches pre-surge? Should I instead get in a boat at Key West and head to New Orleans or up the east coast?

These are all what-ifs that don't really matter. If it's too late and the roads are clogged and you don't have a boat and the beaches are covered with 4 feet of water, you're probably heading to the closest shelter.
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:39 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:29 am
Very early preparations and evacuation wins all here. If I were on the Keys, my Wrangler has a tow-hitch rack that would store my 6 six gallon gas cans. If I leave early enough to get my normal highway mileage of 20 mpg, I'd hit DC before I'd have to stop to refill. With stop and go, I don't know......somewhere mid Georgia.

There isn't a good advantage of electric, hybrid or ICE without extraordinary preparations. If the road is fully clogged with cars, what are you going to do? I don't know Florida beaches well enough, but would my stock Wrangler be able to drive north completely on beaches pre-surge? Should I instead get in a boat at Key West and head to New Orleans or up the east coast?
Almost certainly not the boat. In that, the track of storms are unpredictable and you can be a long way from the center and still experience brutal winds and sea conditions. I'd be interested if anyone with a more nautical background has a more correct opinion? But generally, you don't want to be out in a really bad storm in a boat.

There are apparently no legal protections for employees in Florida if they fail to show up to work because they have evacuated-- a poster here confirmed they had to go back to southern Florida late last week to report for work. Thus, the timing of your departure may well be out of your control.

I agree congestion is the first order problem. The second order problem is then whether you have enough gas or electricity juice or whatever.
These are all what-ifs that don't really matter. If it's too late and the roads are clogged and you don't have a boat and the beaches are covered with 4 feet of water, you're probably heading to the closest shelter.

Alas by that time the shelter may well be full. And the stores had run out of plywood. As usual, it's the poor who get caught the worst in these sorts of things (I could probably bargain leave out of my employer, someone who works in a grocery store, a 7-11 or as a janitor or security guard probably cannot, or would be docked time that they could not afford to lose).

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by MGBGTV8 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:52 pm

What happens when you're in your EV in Florida summer sun, and stuck in traffic. You are still pulling power to run the AC. Does this drain the battery appreciably?

WhyNotUs
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by WhyNotUs » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:55 pm

MGBGTV8 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:52 pm
What happens when you're in your EV in Florida summer sun, and stuck in traffic. You are still pulling power to run the AC. Does this drain the battery appreciably?
Of course if would drain the battery. Unless it was your first day driving, you would probably avoid or limit use of a/c depending on intended duration of drive. If you have a full battery with 200 mile capacity and 100 miles to drive, then you might turn it on some. I personally would not since gas stations and electricity are early victims of hurricanes.

People seem obsessed with objecting to electric vehicles at times on this list, jeesh. The future is coming, you can join it at whatever point you wish.
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by queso » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:00 pm

WhyNotUs wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:55 pm
MGBGTV8 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:52 pm
What happens when you're in your EV in Florida summer sun, and stuck in traffic. You are still pulling power to run the AC. Does this drain the battery appreciably?
People seem obsessed with objecting to electric vehicles at times on this list, jeesh. The future is coming, you can join it at whatever point you wish.
When it is ready for anything outside of commuting I'll be the first in line! :happy

thangngo
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by thangngo » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:16 pm

artibug wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:19 am
After watching a lot of CNN this weekend for Hurricane Irma and mass evacuation in FL, I start to wonder if electric cars (I.e. The new Nissan Leaf 2018) would be a better choice to get stuck in stop and go traffic for hours in this kind of situation/traffic pattern (if you only have 1 full tank of gas and no more open gas stations en route). Obviously we hope we will never be in this type of situation ever, but what says you? What car will you pick? Electric or gas cars?
You asked the wrong question. I will never want to get my family and myself stuck on freeway during mass evacuation. I live in Houston and Hurricane Rita is still fresh on my mind. Whether it is a gasoline or electric car, do not get yourself in that situation.

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:52 pm

I'd still like the boat idea....but not with huge winds or surges.....say a solid week before it hits.

I thought about this and have the answer.... Kawasaki Ninja 250 motorcycle. Slowly but surely ride out well before winds start. Attach a motorcycle trailer filled with fuel tanks. This bike gets huge mpg. Carefully lane split once caught in the traffic stop. Not the most comfortable ride, but narrow, nimble and great on gas, I think this is the answer.
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by The Wizard » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:59 pm

open_circuit wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:59 am
Electric towing a trailer with a gas generator and some extra gas for the generator. It's a DIY hybrid configuration.
Interesting concept. I wonder how well it works in steady state.
How big a portable generator is needed to keep your Tesla or Bolt running at 40 mph indefinitely?

And those cars are recharged normally when non moving.
Will it really work using a generator to (effectively) power the car's motor directly?
Or will software in the car make this no go?
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by madbrain » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:35 pm

The Wizard wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:59 pm
open_circuit wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:59 am
Electric towing a trailer with a gas generator and some extra gas for the generator. It's a DIY hybrid configuration.
Interesting concept. I wonder how well it works in steady state.
How big a portable generator is needed to keep your Tesla or Bolt running at 40 mph indefinitely?

And those cars are recharged normally when non moving.
Will it really work using a generator to (effectively) power the car's motor directly?
Or will software in the car make this no go?
It is not possible to charge an electric car while it is moving. This is a safety feature of all EVSE.
You could carry a generator, but you would have to stop to use it and charge.

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by The Wizard » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:05 pm

madbrain wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:35 pm
The Wizard wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:59 pm
open_circuit wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:59 am
Electric towing a trailer with a gas generator and some extra gas for the generator. It's a DIY hybrid configuration.
Interesting concept. I wonder how well it works in steady state.
How big a portable generator is needed to keep your Tesla or Bolt running at 40 mph indefinitely?

And those cars are recharged normally when non moving.
Will it really work using a generator to (effectively) power the car's motor directly?
Or will software in the car make this no go?
It is not possible to charge an electric car while it is moving. This is a safety feature of all EVSE.
You could carry a generator, but you would have to stop to use it and charge.
Well that makes an EV almost no fun at all.
I can't really see the safety issue if you had a proper trailer.
Now if you had a small Honda portable generator running in the back seat, then yeah, CO poisoning would do you in...
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acanthurus
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by acanthurus » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:07 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:52 pm
I'd still like the boat idea....but not with huge winds or surges.....say a solid week before it hits.

I thought about this and have the answer.... Kawasaki Ninja 250 motorcycle. Slowly but surely ride out well before winds start. Attach a motorcycle trailer filled with fuel tanks. This bike gets huge mpg. Carefully lane split once caught in the traffic stop. Not the most comfortable ride, but narrow, nimble and great on gas, I think this is the answer.
I'd go with something like a KLR650. Big single, easy to fix, spoked wheels, some offroad capability, easy to outfit with bags/panniers. But yeah, congestion doesn't really exist for anyone with a class M and a bike.

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by madbrain » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:30 pm

The Wizard wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:05 pm
Well that makes an EV almost no fun at all.
I can't really see the safety issue if you had a proper trailer.
Now if you had a small Honda portable generator running in the back seat, then yeah, CO poisoning would do you in...
As opposed to ICE, where you also have to stop to refill your gas tank ? You are not supposed to refuel while you are driving and burning gasoline either ! That hasn't stopped some people from trying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6--uXj04wM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUIP8SP2Glk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Omc2BR5cyI

EVSEs have an electrical contact in the plug, which prevents this. The car detects that a charging cord is still attached, and asks you to unplug first if you try. Most EVS can still safely operate all of their systems (audio, heating, AC, etc) while charging. They just can't move.
My first EV (2012 Leaf) had to be completely shut off during a fast charge (ChaDeMO) but was OK for level 1 and level 2. I think Nissan fixed this by now.

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by The Wizard » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:00 pm

madbrain wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:30 pm
The Wizard wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:05 pm
Well that makes an EV almost no fun at all.
I can't really see the safety issue if you had a proper trailer.
Now if you had a small Honda portable generator running in the back seat, then yeah, CO poisoning would do you in...
As opposed to ICE, where you also have to stop to refill your gas tank ? You are not supposed to refuel while you are driving and burning gasoline either ! That hasn't stopped some people from trying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6--uXj04wM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUIP8SP2Glk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Omc2BR5cyI

EVSEs have an electrical contact in the plug, which prevents this. The car detects that a charging cord is still attached, and asks you to unplug first if you try. Most EVS can still safely operate all of their systems (audio, heating, AC, etc) while charging. They just can't move.
My first EV (2012 Leaf) had to be completely shut off during a fast charge (ChaDeMO) but was OK for level 1 and level 2. I think Nissan fixed this by now.
So basically, we need someone to hack the software to make it possible to charge an EV on the move.
I'm not sure if this would be a middle school level hack or if we need to call in the Russians this time...
Attempted new signature...

smitcat
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by smitcat » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:21 pm

artibug wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:19 am
After watching a lot of CNN this weekend for Hurricane Irma and mass evacuation in FL, I start to wonder if electric cars (I.e. The new Nissan Leaf 2018) would be a better choice to get stuck in stop and go traffic for hours in this kind of situation/traffic pattern (if you only have 1 full tank of gas and no more open gas stations en route). Obviously we hope we will never be in this type of situation ever, but what says you? What car will you pick? Electric or gas cars?
You are speaking about a situation where there is a number of potential perilous elements including high winds, flowing water, heavy rains, potential mud flowing and a bunch of cars blocking the street. Range is only one part of the equation but it is a concern.
In that situation I would want a full sized diesel pickup with the full tankage they typically come with topped off = 36 + gallons.
That would afford a higher water capability, some off road abilities, potential to carry fuel and other goods, safety in higher winds and a pretty good range in miles.
But... the real solution is to be long gone before it gets this far is it not?

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by VaR » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:25 am

I would have thought that the boglehead way would be to evacuate well in advance, before the highways became clogged. Also, strictly speaking, only those in evacuation zones are supposed to evacuate.

FWIW, I think the lines at the Tesla superchargers in Florida were less than the lines at the gas stations, but comprehensive and reliable information isn't available statewide.

Just to check - does everyone understand that you evacuate days ahead of time and not when it's already started raining? There was still lots of traffic on certain days like Tuesday and Wednesday. Interestingly, by Thursday and Friday when it was viewed as "late" for evacuation, I know people who left Miami and made it all the way to their destinations in Georgia. OTOH, I don't know what the traffic was like on Thursday and Friday on the gulf coast of Florida.

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by itstoomuch » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:27 am

I heard of a situation on Total Eclipse weekend on I-5 where the Teslas from Southern California, Central CA, SF, SV, Sacramento and Northern CA, swamped the super chargers. So if your EV can go 200 freeway miles on a charge, Going from SFO/Bay area (milepost 0) to Eugene OR (mp 528 miles, I-5) you would need a full charge plus 2 . Two charges must be at just 3 locations, and just these 3, because they are only 3 : Corning CA (mp 170) , Shasta CA (mp 223), and GrantsPass OR (mp 392). If you wanted to be in the Eclipse center in Salem OR (mp 591) you'd be looking for stray electrons.
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by The Wizard » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:03 am

itstoomuch wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:27 am
...If you wanted to be in the Eclipse center in Salem OR (mp 591) you'd be looking for stray electrons.
YEVMV
Yeah, Teslas aren't so great as boonie explorers.
This is why the charging trailer is needed for those folks...
Attempted new signature...

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by Valuethinker » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:18 am

WhyNotUs wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:55 pm
MGBGTV8 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:52 pm
What happens when you're in your EV in Florida summer sun, and stuck in traffic. You are still pulling power to run the AC. Does this drain the battery appreciably?
Of course if would drain the battery. Unless it was your first day driving, you would probably avoid or limit use of a/c depending on intended duration of drive. If you have a full battery with 200 mile capacity and 100 miles to drive, then you might turn it on some. I personally would not since gas stations and electricity are early victims of hurricanes.

People seem obsessed with objecting to electric vehicles at times on this list, jeesh. The future is coming, you can join it at whatever point you wish.
It is seen as a political statement.

The internet was full of similar stuff about Toyota Prius and hybrids generally. Then, they became mainstream and you don't read those threads much any more. Still carping about the Toyota Prius, mind, but it's accepted that some people will buy hybrids.

(the South Park episode where the fleet of Toyota Prii starts killing everyone with "smug gas" which it emits is, nonetheless, hilarious ;-))

One side sees a political statement. The other side sees inevitability.

I am with St. Augustine on this one "Lord make me chaste. But not yet".

I can see a Disruptive Innovation, in the best Clay Christensen sense, coming straight down the track. So can the auto industry. We should not be surprised if there is consumer resistance.

A prediction I cannot be held to? By 2050 it will be difficult or impossible to drive an ICE vehicle and very expensive at the very least. Indeed I could see that by 2040. It will have become societally unacceptable. You read it from some stranger on the internets ;-).

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:57 am

We should have an emoticon to signify fatigue. So much of this discussion reminds me of engineers telling us, with authority, that bumble bees can't fly, because [hand waving]

Many Tesla "fan boys" [I'll use the disparaging term, because I am not embarrassed of being a fan], while emphasizing the positive, acknowledge the negatives also (cold weather, cost, etc.). Every time a negative is acknowledged, it seems that a contingent (and they're a pretty consistent group) will perk up and shout, "SEE! I TOLD YOU BUMBLE BEES CAN'T FLY!"

My prediction stands. Some day, some of you will own a high-end EV and see what you've been missing. Others of you won't. You know what Dorothy Parker said about horticulture :D If you don't know, look it up, it's pretty funny.

I'm going on a cleansing fast of no Boglehead EV topics for some time. I'm sure that you'll carry on.

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by 732002 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:50 am

TBillT wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:50 am
As far as emergency situations, flexibility wins. So if gasoline is unavailable, electric wins, and vice versa. I believe electric vehicles helped in Japan for the tsunami recovery. Hybrids such as Prius can be very handy for running an inverter to get back up power for the home. I thought you were going to ask if electric vehicles get more damaged in flood waters...guess we have to ask insurance cos.
I use my Toyota generator for charging my electric RC planes as well as backup power.
You get about 1000W from the 12V and several times more if you go to the work to tap in to
the high volt batteries.

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just frank
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by just frank » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:57 am

732002 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:50 am
TBillT wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:50 am
As far as emergency situations, flexibility wins. So if gasoline is unavailable, electric wins, and vice versa. I believe electric vehicles helped in Japan for the tsunami recovery. Hybrids such as Prius can be very handy for running an inverter to get back up power for the home. I thought you were going to ask if electric vehicles get more damaged in flood waters...guess we have to ask insurance cos.
I use my Toyota generator for charging my electric RC planes as well as backup power.
You get about 1000W from the 12V and several times more if you go to the work to tap in to
the high volt batteries.
I have a 1500W sine wave inverter hooked up to my 2013 LEAF, and backfeed all the 120V circuits in my house during an outage. With a woodstove for heat, a campstove for cooking and a big HW tank, we can carry on for a couple days without any problem, and have.

Cost....$600 above the cost of the EV.

Evacuation....I'd take the gas-mobile.

Floods.....the LEAF wading depth rating is greater than most ICE cars. The battery is hermetically sealed and ventilated through a 'snorkel'.

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:20 am

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:29 am
Very early preparations and evacuation wins all here. If I were on the Keys, my Wrangler has a tow-hitch rack that would store my 6 six gallon gas cans. If I leave early enough to get my normal highway mileage of 20 mpg, I'd hit DC before I'd have to stop to refill. With stop and go, I don't know......somewhere mid Georgia.

There isn't a good advantage of electric, hybrid or ICE without extraordinary preparations. If the road is fully clogged with cars, what are you going to do? I don't know Florida beaches well enough, but would my stock Wrangler be able to drive north completely on beaches pre-surge? Should I instead get in a boat at Key West and head to New Orleans or up the east coast?

These are all what-ifs that don't really matter. If it's too late and the roads are clogged and you don't have a boat and the beaches are covered with 4 feet of water, you're probably heading to the closest shelter.
I wouldn't try to run your Jeep on Florida's beaches, lest the natives (including myself) remove you from your Jeep and give you a sound thrashing for despoiling our beaches! :o : Besides, the numerous piers and jetties and bridge causeways would probably make it an impossibility. And, not all of Florida's coastline has the sandy beaches.

Once upon a time you could run vehicles on Daytona's beaches. No idea if you still can.

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:58 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:57 am
We should have an emoticon to signify fatigue. So much of this discussion reminds me of engineers telling us, with authority, that bumble bees can't fly, because [hand waving]
I have to protest this. While a popular meme (although usually scientists rather than engineers) It Never Happened. This is one the various "scientists are ivory-tower cuckoo-nuts with no common sense" statements.

There is a huge difference between, "We don't know how a bumblebee flies, none of our models shows it as possible" and "It's impossible for bumblebees to fly". Scientists were and are able to use all data, including that fact that bumblebees do fly. It just took quite a while to find out how. As I recall it required extremely high speed photography to pick up some sort of rapid sculling factor in the wing motion.
This week's fortune cookie: "The stock market may be your ticket to success." I sure hope so!

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by thangngo » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:20 am

Valuethinker wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:18 am
A prediction I cannot be held to? By 2050 it will be difficult or impossible to drive an ICE vehicle and very expensive at the very least. Indeed I could see that by 2040. It will have become societally unacceptable. You read it from some stranger on the internets ;-).
I believe it's the exact opposite. When there are many electric cars, gasoline price will decrease so low due to supply/demand. That'd make it cheap to drive ICE car. I'll upgrade to a V8 (or hell even V12) and pay less for gas than I do now. :sharebeer I promise that I'll floor it and smoke folks who drive electric car (literally) just for kicks. :mrgreen: That South Park episode is hilarious LOL smog...
Last edited by thangngo on Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:21 am

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:58 am
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:57 am
We should have an emoticon to signify fatigue. So much of this discussion reminds me of engineers telling us, with authority, that bumble bees can't fly, because [hand waving]
I have to protest this. While a popular meme (although usually scientists rather than engineers) It Never Happened. This is one the various "scientists are ivory-tower cuckoo-nuts with no common sense" statements.

There is a huge difference between, "We don't know how a bumblebee flies, none of our models shows it as possible" and "It's impossible for bumblebees to fly". Scientists were and are able to use all data, including that fact that bumblebees do fly. It just took quite a while to find out how. As I recall it required extremely high speed photography to pick up some sort of rapid sculling factor in the wing motion.
Point taken. But, I think you take my point also. I'll be in a better mood about this in a while. In the meantime, have at it :D

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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:29 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:21 am
Point taken. But, I think you take my point also. I'll be in a better mood about this in a while. In the meantime, have at it :D
Actually, I don't.
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:38 am

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:29 am
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:21 am
Point taken. But, I think you take my point also. I'll be in a better mood about this in a while. In the meantime, have at it :D
Actually, I don't.
Okay, have it your way. Scientist or engineer, meme without basis, whatever. I took your point, you claim not to take mine (of which claim I'm dubious, try to think instead of argue your point, but so be it). IMO, this topic has become almost like politics in that people talk past each other, few, if any, opinions are changed even one degree: angry feelings develop. Roger and out.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by BrandonBogle » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:47 am

There was lots of discussion about this on the Tesla forums as people were evacuating.

During the evacuation and on the road back to recovery, there were no reported problems of Tesla owners having charging issues. Florida has a number of Superchargers on top of a number of slower charging options, that nobody had problems in leaving. No shortages, no extended waits (rarely one at all), no power outages. On the return route, things have been much the same. 24 hours after the storm, only the Marathon (a Florida Key) Supercharger is offline, though some people had to huff at Security in the St. Augustine mall to let them through to get to the Superchargers.

The key limiting factor, at least for Teslas, is the number of charging stations. If you use a Supercharger, you aren't really that much delayed, especially in an evacuation scenario where people were waiting 1+ hours in line for gas, if the station didn't run out. However, when one gas station is out (or has a long line), there are plenty more within a short distance to try instead. Beyond 8 or so Supercharger stalls, there is nowhere nearby with such high-speed charging, but there are other charging stations throughout (you would now be waiting hours though to charge).

As for power being available, since the Superchargers are 400v systems, they are usually connected to main/area transmission lines instead of feeders for each cluster of businesses, etc. (that is part of the challenge getting them installed too). Thus, they tend to stay online even with spot outages around people until there are "the entire area for a mile or more is without power" scenarios.

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Pajamas
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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by Pajamas » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:54 am

queso wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:38 am
+1. In an emergency bugout/evac situation I'll have 4 or 5 five gallon gas cans strapped to my roof rack.
Hope you at least cover them with one of those blue tarps and don't have to leave your vehicle unattended. Sometimes law and order breaks down in emergency situations, to one degree or another, especially when necessities are in short supply.

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Re: Electric car in evacuation situation

Post by queso » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:00 pm

Pajamas wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:54 am
queso wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:38 am
+1. In an emergency bugout/evac situation I'll have 4 or 5 five gallon gas cans strapped to my roof rack.
Hope you at least cover them with one of those blue tarps and don't have to leave your vehicle unattended. Sometimes law and order breaks down in emergency situations, to one degree or another, especially when necessities are in short supply.
I totally agree that law and order is one of the first things to break down in disaster scenarios. That's why I don't have any expectation of relying on law enforcement to protect me or my belongings. When these types of situations arise you are truly on your own..at least for a while.

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