Picking College and College Scholarships

[itstoomuch]

Chose a school that has a low or high incident of Hookups/Engagements.
#1 question Students ask of other students is, "What's ....?"
#1 question students ask of administration officials is, "...?"
#1 question students ask of professors is, of course, "curve or point grading?"

YKidMV

[timmy]

I believe the statement was meant to be hypothetical for decision making. Point was ... we are going through a process.

Understand, but my way of thinking about college for my kids was value vs. price. A top private (like need-only MIT) is a little less than 2x the cost of Urbana-Champaign. The question becomes, does a need-only top private (or even U-Michigan or Berkeley) provide 2x more value than UI? If so, sticker might be worth it.

Of course, Rose Hulman and CMU offer merit aid, so they are even less than sticker.

Understood.

[timmy]

Chose a school that has a low or high incident of Hookups/Engagements.
#1 question Students ask of other students is, "What's ....?"
#1 question students ask of administration officials is, "...?"
#1 question students ask of professors is, of course, "curve or point grading?"

YKidMV

Keeping you away from my kids. Well, maybe not my 3rd one. The consensus seems that we won't care much about him anyway.

[timmy]

When my kid applied to Purdue, the school only gave her $10k per year for scholarship. Not enough to go out of state. Michigan gave her nothing. But I was glad she had them on her list because she knew by Dec that she was accepted somewhere, softened the blow of being waitlisted at MIT, even after doing the WTP there in the summer. In the end she went in state to the school in the top 15 for CS, she was a Regents scholar, and had a great experience there. She was a tutor after freshman year and then TA, and head TA junior year. Extremely supportive faculty. This is a kid with top SAT scores and top GPAs. Maybe a bit lacking on ECs. But not a kid who's reading Physics in the summer or coding in her spare time for fun. So I think your kid will do well regardless of the school.

I'm too lazy to check if I noted this above. We went to Purdue over the Summer, maybe the Spring. We left impressed and it is on the list.

[timmy]

Yep, the 2nd kid won't get any college visits until accepted and the 3rd kid won't visit their university before their freshman week.

+1. I was a third kid

...and...
I was a 4th kid and my high school physics teacher sent me on a field trip to the local state engineering school.

I'm 3 of 4. The 2nd middle child. I can way out sad you with my stories! There was walking up hill - to and from school. Then there was the snow - even during summer.

[Doubleeagle4me]

Want a good engineering school? If you have a 30 act score you can get in state tuition at ohio state in Columbus.My daughter is now a junior in ME and loves it. Can't beat a big ten school for undergrad. Also make sure that the engineering school is ABET certified or you are wasting your money.

[timmy]

Want a good engineering school? If you have a 30 act score you can get in state tuition at ohio state in Columbus.My daughter is now a junior in ME and loves it. Can't beat a big ten school for undergrad. Also make sure that the engineering school is ABET certified or you are wasting your money.

Thank you.

Going back 10 years, I worked with a few MEs from there. They worked at the Limited (big campus in Columbus). Talented group.

[itstoomuch]

Keeping you away from my kids. Well, maybe not my 3rd one. The consensus seems that we won't care much about him anyway.

I could understand why son didn't hookup while he was an undergrad. At a private residential university, everyone is from everywhere else and will go to everywhich way on graduation. But at least, Network.
When he went to a foreign school for grad degree, I told him he had a Great opportunity to Network. Lots of 25,000 undergrads who need the mentoring of an older male.
Then he became a research assistant at a major state university, I said, You have a really Really golden opportunity. The 25,000 Opposites are looking. You have the goods and should be showing off your feathers.
So now he's 32. And "Interviewing"

I think the genders at their age look at "picking a college and college scholarships" differently. And could be making a choice different from the parents.
YkidsMV

[timmy]

I could understand why son didn't hookup while he was an undergrad. At a private residential university, everyone is from everywhere else and will go to everywhich way on graduation. But at least, Network.
When he went to a foreign school for grad degree, I told him he had a Great opportunity to Network. Lots of 25,000 undergrads who need the mentoring of an older male.
Then he became a research assistant at a major state university, I said, You have a really Really golden opportunity. The 25,000 Opposites are looking. You have the goods and should be showing off your feathers.
So now he's 32. And "Interviewing"

I think the genders at their age look at "picking a college and college scholarships" differently. And could be making a choice different from the parents

.

I read a really interesting article once ... It was along the lines of what you posted. It basically made your point. For those interested, college is the best place to find a long term mate. It gave a bunch of reasons that seemed legit. If I find it, I'll post it.

[WildBill]

Wild bill

Would you make the claim about the ivies or just MIT?

My sense is if it is true ... it is only true about MIT and Stanford ... for engineering.

Harvard and Yale might have that same mojo ... for business. Etc.

Howdy

Anecdotal references are not evidence, and I try to limit myself to direct experience, either my own or my family, or extremely close friends.

MIT has a culture of integrity of purpose, based on increasing the rate of development of technology for the benefit of society which the school was founded on. In my observation and experience that culture is broadly accepted and shared by everyone at the institution. I have had direct experience with several other institutions, including a couple of those you mentioned and they do not measure up.

Then they go out every year and get the best student body they can get - a collegial and diverse group of smart achievers and throw them into the mix. Good things happen.

In my experience it is a unique place and perfect for a smart achiever who enjoys working with and learning from others.

Good luck to your son

W B

[timmy]

Regarding personal experience, I've worked (more than 6 months, complex matter) with 3 folks from MIT. 2 were extremely impressive - the 3rd not so much. Of the 2, 1 one was the best engineer that I've worked with. Quite literally, he's the type of engineer that invents/ discovers equations. Mortals like me are lucky enough to use them.

I've worked with 4 Stanford engineers. All impressive.

I've worked with 30 plus engineers from the Ivies and other top schools. It's been a mixed bag. I can't say that I saw any trends. Other than the mystique of an Ivy league education is lost on (maybe just dull) me.

How do I know about their degrees? As part of bids, you typically receive the resumes of the lead project managers, engineers and account managers.

Just personal observations ...

An an engineer, I was average. I realized it about 8 years into my career. I pivoted to play on my strengths. Or maybe just to compete in a less competitive sandbox.

[itstoomuch]

I read a really interesting article once ... It was along the lines of what you posted. It basically made your point. For those interested, college is the best place to find a long term mate. It gave a bunch of reasons that seemed legit. If I find it, I'll post it.

Not necessarily a "long-term mate" but at least the first .
Could be this Millenium generation wants to be independent financially before commitment rather going through financial stresses together. not sure if that is good or bad for growing up.

[VictoriaF]

I read a really interesting article once ... It was along the lines of what you posted. It basically made your point. For those interested, college is the best place to find a long term mate. It gave a bunch of reasons that seemed legit. If I find it, I'll post it.

It's gender specific. Check out a book "Date-onomics: How Dating Became a Lopsided Numbers Game" by Jon Birger. The vast majority of universities have more women than men, and in some of these schools the ratio is so lopsided that dating is excessively promiscuous. The best colleges for women are in San Francisco and the Silicon Valley. The best colleges for men are everywhere else.

Victoria

[WildBill]

Regarding personal experience, I've worked (more than 6 months, complex matter) with 3 folks from MIT. 2 were extremely impressive - the 3rd not so much. Of the 2, 1 one was the best engineer that I've worked with. Quite literally, he's the type of engineer that invents/ discovers equations. Mortals like me are lucky enough to use them.

Howdy

Interesting observation.

As part of their mission MIT has a process to identify and recruit people like the guy you mention, and they are absolutely dead serious about it.

There are dedicated people on their admissions staff whose only role is to actively seek out and recruit the most promising potential scientists and technologists in the world and bring them to MIT as undergraduates. That is unique among universities as far as I am aware.

I spoke with one of the fellows several years ago and he described his job as " Nick Saban for the nerds". What a job that must be!

Best of luck to your son

W B

[malabargold]

I've worked with 4 Stanford engineers. All impressive.

I've worked with 30 plus engineers from the Ivies and other top schools. It's been a mixed bag. I can't say that I saw any trends. Other than the mystique of an Ivy league education is lost on (maybe just dull) me.

How do I know about their degrees? As part of bids, you typically receive the resumes of the lead project managers, engineers and account managers.

Just personal observations ...

An an engineer, I was average. I realized it about 8 years into my career. I pivoted to play on my strengths. Or maybe just to complete in a less competitive sandbox.
[/quote]



Well the Ivies are Liberal Arts and Sciences universities
and colleges first and foremost. Engineering has not been a
traditional strength at these schools.
Kinda like judging Duke based on it's football program

[Big Dog]

^^with all due respect, 4 of the 8 Ivies have top 20 engineering programs: Columbia, Cornell, Princeton, & Penn. The first two are tied at 13th. Harvard is #23, but has millions to pump into their program to upgrade it.



https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/educ ... chool.html

[timmy]

^^with all due respect, 4 of the 8 Ivies have top 20 engineering programs: Columbia, Cornell, Princeton, & Penn. The first two are tied at 13th. Harvard is #23, but has millions to pump into their program to upgrade it.



https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/educ ... chool.html

Yes. For example, Princeton's program is excellent.

[malabargold]

Yep, but it's still not a relative strength for most.
Your example proves my premise.
For example, I can think of no other discipline in which
Harvard ranks 23rd

[timmy]

No way, not now, not ever ... am I going to defend Harvard.

Who am I kidding? If my kid decides to apply there, gets in and attends ... it will be the best school ever.

Can you be a hypocrite before you commit an act of hypocrisy or only after? (That's a question for someone from Harvard. )

[gasman]

You cannot overestimate how competitive the top schools have become. National Merit Scholarship winners with perfect grades routinely get rejected from the ivies, MIT, Stanford, U Chicago, etc. Little if any merit money to be had from this group. If your son is a national Merit Scholar there will be many schools well below these in competitiveness and name recognition that will be offering lots of merit money.

[TomatoTomahto]

^ I remember hearing that half of SAT 2400s (the older test) got rejected by HYPMS. That factoid was presented to us at an info session. DS got one (1 !!!) question wrong on the math section, which kept him from a perfect 2400. Insult to injury, College Board labeled it an easy question. Anyway, DS, given to finding the silver lining, said that he was lucky to get one question wrong, because Admissions Officers seemed to pride themselves on rejecting many who scored 2400, and he had dodged that bullet

For the skeptics in the crowd, usually you can get 1-2 wrong in the Math section and still get an 800, but a few years ago, there was a draconian curve during one test. Random.

Bottom line: as gasman says, NMF doesn't mean much at schools where the majority would qualify. They won't pay up to add it to their incoming class, so you have to go a notch down if you want merit money. The schools a notch or two down are still high quality schools.

[timmy]

My sense ... The ACT and SAT are fences that you get over. After a certain height (maybe 33 or 34 on the ACT), more doesn't help (much).

[itstoomuch]

IMO, JMO.
Some engineering schools have corporate recruiters who recruit for specific skill sets.
Ivy schools may have excellent engineering schools but may not be top 10. The recruiters don't care, they are recruiting for the brand name and for people/management/affinity association more so than the hard technical skill.
Our son went to a high ranked engineering school. The recruiters were technical firms looking for technical people. Most of the engineering graduates went to the technical companies rather than to the engineering-business route.

-Probably too early for your son, But soon, some schools will have fall recruitment fair then a later spring recruitment fair. Look who is attending.
-The second "picking a college" is the where and who the graduating college student will select.
-Third, is a residential college and an OOS college will have graduating seniors scattering on graduation. A public OOS will have the student taking the first job within the schools region or to far off states. ex. Georgia Tech, a great engineering school but a instate or regional student will likely stay within the region even though recruited by national firms. The oos student from OR attending GT may have no lasting affinity to the South and will go elsewhere for a job.
-The Hookup. All is now a toss-up. Nothing holds. Except where the girlfriend or boyfriend is also from a different state/region.
This is where you (parent) have some influence more so than which college is selected. IOW strategize for your future DIL and where your child will take their first job.
yMIL-FIL,mv

[timmy]

Well into the college application process.

Our biggest surprise ... How archaic the process is? With everything online, you'd think sending ACT score and grades would be quick and easy. No! The kids are told to allow 4 to 6 weeks from request to request fulfillment. Really?

The process reminds me of the last time we refinanced our mortgage. So much paper. So much time and effort.

In fairness, there is a progress. The common application is nice.

[FedGuy]

College admissions lags well behind current technology for some reason. I remember having to use a typewriter for every one of my applications despite having owned a personal computer for a decade by that point.

[Big Dog]

With everything online, you'd think sending ACT score and grades would be quick and easy. No!

Test scores do go pretty quick, once they are available. The Common App usually goes within a couple of days from the time your kid pushes send and you pay the fee.

Of course, nearly everything is batch processed, so one Uni may receive scores on Monday, while another college might not want to receive them until Friday (IT considerations).

Transcripts, OTOH, first and foremost depend on your high school. Do they use paper or a transcript service? Does the GC have to sign off? Our HS used a service, in which we entered student name, HS, and colleges, but it was worthless during the holidays, since a school counselor had to approve of the submission. Thus, two week delay.

College admissions lags well behind current technology for some reason.

Really not worth the huge IT investment for a once a year activity.

[TomatoTomahto]

With everything online, you'd think sending ACT score and grades would be quick and easy. No!

College admissions lags well behind current technology for some reason.

Really not worth the huge IT investment for a once a year activity.

It is a racket. For example, ACT costs per test date, per school

Regular report
Processed within one week after your request is received, ACT delivers regular reports to colleges and agencies you've selected depending on their preferred schedule—at least every two weeks.
Fees for Regular Report
(effective through 8/31/2018)
Tested after 9/1/2015 - $13.00 per test date per report
Tested before 9/1/2015 - $37.00 per test date per report (includes a nonrefundable $24.00 archived scores fee)
Priority report
Priority reports can only be sent within the United States. Processed within two working days after your request, priority reports are usually delivered three to four business days later.
Fees for Priority Report
(effective through 8/31/2018)
Tested after 9/1/2015 - $16.50 per test date per report
Tested before 9/1/2015 - $40.50 per test date per report (includes a nonrefundable $24.00 archived scores fee)

ETA: SATs are no angels, but iirc they don’t charge extra for each test date

[timmy]

I believe SAT/ ACT charge $15 per school with the first four schools free.

In terms of transcripts and grades, you type them in (to online App). The real copies are sent (I believe) after the Fall semester. (Of course, if you submit false info and are accepted to the school, when the real info shows, you'll be dumped.)

I know this is a once of year process but there are 3 to 4 million 12th graders in the USA. If 1/2 apply for schools ... that's a lot of inefficiency.

It does beat using a type writer ... typing on stock forms. Not that I am old enough to remember that

[Constant Chaos]

I believe SAT/ ACT charge $15 per school with the first four schools free.

In terms of transcripts and grades, you type them in (to online App). The real copies are sent (I believe) after the Fall semester. (Of course, if you submit false info and are accepted to the school, when the real info shows, you'll be dumped.)

I know this is a once of year process but there are 3 to 4 million 12th graders in the USA. If 1/2 apply for schools ... that's a lot of inefficiency.

It does beat using a type writer ... typing on stock forms. Not that I am old enough to remember that

You can send four free ACT scores if you select that option before you receive your scores; afterwards, it's $13 per school, per test date.

The transripts and grades thing depends on the colleges. All of my child's colleges are rolling admissions and none of them wanted you to manually enter the first three years of high school grades. They just want the transcript sent from the high school through junior year.

I haven't found it too technologically behind. For almost all our schools, they sent an email with a link to an online portal. You can log in and see if the ACT scores were received (schools ranged from 1 day to 1 week to receive those) and materials from the high school (schools ranged from 1 to 4 days in receiving those) Not too bad and light years ahead of the typewriter days!

[Big Dog]

It is a racket. For example, ACT costs per test date, per school.

A money-maker, to be sure, but only a few colleges superscore the ACT, so only one report date needs to be sent. (yes, the highly selective colleges do want to see all reports, but that is only a recent change.)

Remember, the vast majority of students attend their directional state uni close to home, and may only apply to a handful of local/regional colleges. Those applying to the super-select are definitely not the norm.

[TomatoTomahto]

It is a racket. For example, ACT costs per test date, per school.

A money-maker, to be sure, but only a few colleges superscore the ACT, so only one report date needs to be sent. (yes, the highly selective colleges do want to see all reports, but that is only a recent change.)

Remember, the vast majority of students attend their directional state uni close to home, and may only apply to a handful of local/regional colleges. Those applying to the super-select are definitely not the norm.

That’s a fair point, but from a cost accounting standpoint, SAT manages to send multiple test dates for one fee; I can’t imagine ACT has a cost driver that warrants the additional expense. Maybe calling it a racket was excessive, but over the years, I’ve become jaded and cynical about the college admissions industry, while becoming more positive about college admissions itself. Go figure.

Re superscoring the ACT, if I remember correctly (although it’s been a while, so I might not), I think ACT itself says that it is invalid to superstore the ACT components.

[Big Dog]

SAT manages to send multiple test dates for one fee

Right, but then nearly every college superscores the SAT. Only a few superscore the ACT (bcos it is in their best interest to do so).

I’ve become jaded and cynical about the college admissions industry...

I'm one of the most cynical out there, so get in line.

[TomatoTomahto]

I’ve become jaded and cynical about the college admissions industry...

I'm one of the most cynical out there, so get in line.

The second half of that quote speaks to the admiration I have, for the most part, in the decisions reached by Admissions Officers at some of the selective schools. They seem to read between the lines of LoRs, and apparently read essays carefully, and I have been impressed how they seem to reject the posers and accept the real deal. I have become a believer in holistic admissions.

[VaR]

I think I've mentioned it before, but I'd like to mention the importance of having your kid go to a university where they will be challenged - both generally and in their field of study. On the other end I guess I've also heard that it's important that they not be outmatched as well.

[timmy]

Yes, I think that he'll be challenged at all the schools (that he applied to). While MIT might be the high end of challenging (guessing), some of the other schools could be made more challenging by finishing sooner (ex: 3 years), double major, etc.

[Constant Chaos]

only a few colleges superscore the ACT

Many schools superscore the ACT
https://www.princetonreview.com/cms-con ... blepdf.pdf

[Psyayeayeduck]

This will get buried with the sea of posts but hopefully one day someone reading this will follow my path regarding scholarships. As a full-ride scholarship recipient (undergrad and grad), I found some tips along the way that made life financially easier.

==============================================

- Filling out scholarship applications is very similar to filling out job applications. In both cases, you are trying to convince someone or a group of people to give you money. So start off by having some generic essay templates with fill-in-the-blank entries at the ready. A lot of these scholarship essays are similar to each other doing the same song and dance of why should they give you money.

- When starting out, your best chances of getting a scholarship are from local ones because applicant pool is so small compared to the large, popular ones like the Coca-Cola or Microsoft scholarships of the world. You have a better chance going against 20 applicants versus thousands of applicants. It's all about numbers. In addition, some of smaller businesses love using scholarships as a way to advertise themselves in a more personalized manner. They win because they are advertising by giving back to the community and the recipient wins because free money.

- Focus on the smaller amount scholarships. $100 here, $500 there. It adds up! People focus on the one-and-done full-ride scholarships but keep forgetting the smaller ones. Like my previous bullet, those smaller amount scholarships have a smaller pool of applicants versus the one-and-done full-ride scholarships. When you build up an arsenal of scholarships under your belt, you have an easier time getting future scholarships because your CV fills up faster. By then, you become a viable consideration for the larger ones including the full-ride scholarships. This is how I got my full-ride scholarship when I was an undergrad. From my experience, it is easier to get awarded money when you have already been awarded money regardless of amount.

- The more focus the scholarship is towards your major, the better. Again, you can't control who applies but you can control which pool of applicants you can be involved. The engineering scholarship is a better route than the general scholarship.

- Keep applying at all years of your schooling. For whatever reason, student applicants drop significantly after their freshman year. Whether it is school workload, laziness, or whatever reason I can't think of, applying for scholarships especially in the later years is more critical than ever because now you can show your academic prowess through taken classes and grades as evidence. A scholarship committee will be able to get a better grasp of what kind of student you are when show them that you can handle a semesters worth of school workload.

- Visit your school's financial aid office and scholarship office. They exist for a reason and have more knowledge/resources than you do.

[timmy]

This will get buried with the sea of posts but hopefully one day someone reading this will follow my path regarding scholarships. As a full-ride scholarship recipient (undergrad and grad), I found some tips along the way that made life financially easier.

==============================================

- Filling out scholarship applications is very similar to filling out job applications. In both cases, you are trying to convince someone or a group of people to give you money. So start off by having some generic essay templates with fill-in-the-blank entries at the ready. A lot of these scholarship essays are similar to each other doing the same song and dance of why should they give you money.

- When starting out, your best chances of getting a scholarship are from local ones because applicant pool is so small compared to the large, popular ones like the Coca-Cola or Microsoft scholarships of the world. You have a better chance going against 20 applicants versus thousands of applicants. It's all about numbers. In addition, some of smaller businesses love using scholarships as a way to advertise themselves in a more personalized manner. They win because they are advertising by giving back to the community and the recipient wins because free money.

- Focus on the smaller amount scholarships. $100 here, $500 there. It adds up! People focus on the one-and-done full-ride scholarships but keep forgetting the smaller ones. Like my previous bullet, those smaller amount scholarships have a smaller pool of applicants versus the one-and-done full-ride scholarships. When you build up an arsenal of scholarships under your belt, you have an easier time getting future scholarships because your CV fills up faster. By then, you become a viable consideration for the larger ones including the full-ride scholarships. This is how I got my full-ride scholarship when I was an undergrad. From my experience, it is easier to get awarded money when you have already been awarded money regardless of amount.

- The more focus the scholarship is towards your major, the better. Again, you can't control who applies but you can control which pool of applicants you can be involved. The engineering scholarship is a better route than the general scholarship.

- Keep applying at all years of your schooling. For whatever reason, student applicants drop significantly after their freshman year. Whether it is school workload, laziness, or whatever reason I can't think of, applying for scholarships especially in the later years is more critical than ever because now you can show your academic prowess through taken classes and grades as evidence. A scholarship committee will be able to get a better grasp of what kind of student you are when show them that you can handle a semesters worth of school workload.

- Visit your school's financial aid office and scholarship office. They exist for a reason and have more knowledge/resources than you do.

Consider it read. Thanks for sharing!

[jodydavis]

The second half of that quote speaks to the admiration I have, for the most part, in the decisions reached by Admissions Officers at some of the selective schools. They seem to read between the lines of LoRs, and apparently read essays carefully, and I have been impressed how they seem to reject the posers and accept the real deal. I have become a believer in holistic admissions.

I'd be interested to hear the basis for your admiration. To be clear, I'm not doubting you - in fact, I'd love for this to be the case. It's just that, based on how incredibly competitive the process is today, it seems as though each school could fill their class 5x with students who are the "real deal," and the main issue is picking among them. Is your admiration based on your own personal experience, or do you have some inside info on the admissions process? Thanks.

[TomatoTomahto]

The second half of that quote speaks to the admiration I have, for the most part, in the decisions reached by Admissions Officers at some of the selective schools. They seem to read between the lines of LoRs, and apparently read essays carefully, and I have been impressed how they seem to reject the posers and accept the real deal. I have become a believer in holistic admissions.

I'd be interested to hear the basis for your admiration. To be clear, I'm not doubting you - in fact, I'd love for this to be the case. It's just that, based on how incredibly competitive the process is today, it seems as though each school could fill their class 5x with students who are the "real deal," and the main issue is picking among them. Is your admiration based on your own personal experience, or do you have some inside info on the admissions process? Thanks.

I have no inside information on the admissions process, but I have observed it, closely, for a few years. There are of course, as you say, 5x available seats or more "real deal" students that would be academically suited to each selective school, but there probably aren't close to as many who would be a good fit. Harvard and Yale, for example, accept students with roughly comparable SATs, GPAs, etc., but I think I could spot a Harvard-fit vs. a Yale-fit at a thousand yards. Every year, on college confidential, I get a few requests to give some advice to an applicant. I give most of them encouragement, but don't deal with them extensively. Over the years, I have spent extra time on 4 kids, whose stats were no better than the rest (and in one case considerably less good), but so far I'm 4 for 4 in picking the ones that I think are a Yale fit.

And, that's what I think AOs do very well. My son's year, 8 of his classmates matriculated at Penn. I knew most of those kids pretty well, and aside from one development case (a subject for another time), the kids were well chosen for Penn. I also knew some of the kids who were not accepted to Penn, and I don't know of one of them that, based on much more information than the AOs had, I would have suggested were a better choice than any of the accepted kids (save the development outlier). I had known these kids for years, they spent time at my house, I knew who was resume padding and who was sincerely interested, I spent time with the teachers, but the AOs had to read between the lines of a LoR, parse their essays, and made decisions that correlated highly with mine based on considerably less data. I find that impressive.

From personal experience, with my son, he did not have the highest GPA of the kids applying to Yale that year. His school-based ECs were not noteworthy. He and his best friend weren't even selected for the Cum Laude Society by their fellow students, so they joked that they would have to get that honor at Yale and Dartmouth, respectively. He has done quite well at Yale.

[jodydavis]

Thanks for the reply, that's very helpful. And it makes more sense, thinking about the large numbers of potentially qualified students, once you define the issue as "fit." That said, it does sound like things are perhaps a bit different today. I went to Yale undergrad, and I'm not sure I saw any discernible pattern or "fit" among the students there, as compared to other selective schools. But that was a while ago, and it sounds like things may be a bit different today. Thanks again.

I have no inside information on the admissions process, but I have observed it, closely, for a few years. There are of course, as you say, 5x available seats or more "real deal" students that would be academically suited to each selective school, but there probably aren't close to as many who would be a good fit. Harvard and Yale, for example, accept students with roughly comparable SATs, GPAs, etc., but I think I could spot a Harvard-fit vs. a Yale-fit at a thousand yards. Every year, on college confidential, I get a few requests to give some advice to an applicant. I give most of them encouragement, but don't deal with them extensively. Over the years, I have spent extra time on 4 kids, whose stats were no better than the rest (and in one case considerably less good), but so far I'm 4 for 4 in picking the ones that I think are a Yale fit.

And, that's what I think AOs do very well. My son's year, 8 of his classmates matriculated at Penn. I knew most of those kids pretty well, and aside from one development case (a subject for another time), the kids were well chosen for Penn. I also knew some of the kids who were not accepted to Penn, and I don't know of one of them that, based on much more information than the AOs had, I would have suggested were a better choice than any of the accepted kids (save the development outlier). I had known these kids for years, they spent time at my house, I knew who was resume padding and who was sincerely interested, I spent time with the teachers, but the AOs had to read between the lines of a LoR, parse their essays, and made decisions that correlated highly with mine based on considerably less data. I find that impressive.

From personal experience, with my son, he did not have the highest GPA of the kids applying to Yale that year. His school-based ECs were not noteworthy. He and his best friend weren't even selected for the Cum Laude Society by their fellow students, so they joked that they would have to get that honor at Yale and Dartmouth, respectively. He has done quite well at Yale.

[ThatGuy]

Harvard and Yale, for example, accept students with roughly comparable SATs, GPAs, etc., but I think I could spot a Harvard-fit vs. a Yale-fit at a thousand yards.

So what makes a Harvard man, vs. a Yale man, other than being a Kennedy? Or a Rutgers man?

[TomatoTomahto]

Harvard and Yale, for example, accept students with roughly comparable SATs, GPAs, etc., but I think I could spot a Harvard-fit vs. a Yale-fit at a thousand yards.

So what makes a Harvard man, vs. a Yale man, other than being a Kennedy? Or a Rutgers man?

That’s difficult to answer, and even more difficult to answer without angering fans of Harvard

It’s a bit like the scene in Rain Man where he knows, instantly, that 82 toothpicks fell on the floor. I’m sure he couldn’t have verbalized how he counted them so quickly.

I favor Y over H, and I’m sure that would come out in my explanation. I have a lot of experience with Y students. I have less experience with H students and grads, but many grads seem to mention that they attended H within minutes of meeting, something that doesn’t seem to happen as quickly (if at all) with Y grads (hmmmmm).

Kidding aside, they’re both great schools, but they attract different types. I laugh every time I hear of kids who applied to every Ivy. It’s a stunt, as no human with a personality would be happy at all 8. Brown and Columbia? Please.

[daveydoo]

I'd be interested to hear the basis for your admiration. To be clear, I'm not doubting you - in fact, I'd love for this to be the case. It's just that, based on how incredibly competitive the process is today, it seems as though each school could fill their class 5x with students who are the "real deal," and the main issue is picking among them. Is your admiration based on your own personal experience, or do you have some inside info on the admissions process?

+1. Admissions committees are not geniuses; they're probably superfluous. It's arbitrary at the tippy-top. "Back in the day," the kid who got into Harvard got into Princeton and certainly Penn. Not any more (forthcoming anecdotal counterexamples notwithstanding). I've recently seen a few dozen top kids get into top Ivies and the most striking thing is the percentage that get into one (even Harvard or Yale) and get into no others. It's completely idiosyncratic. I guess sometimes if comes down to who's the better liar (have seen this firsthand). Legacy protestations notwithstanding, legacy status means a lot. Doesn't mean legacies all get in, but I'd rather go to the (mythical) casino where the odds were tipped slightly in my favor before I'd go all the others where the odds are tipped in the house favor. For low-prob events, this makes a big difference.

[jodydavis]

I wonder whether your experience is representative. I've always thought that the differences between students at the most selective schools were exaggerated, often out of a desire by the students to differentiate themselves. It's hard for me to imagine that admissions offices can sustain that kind of consistency across the 1400+ students admitted each year. Moreover, as I mentioned above, it's not consistent with my experience, where there was quite a wide range of different "types" at Yale and at all of the other selective schools (and I have friends who have graduated from all of them). I've done alumni interviews for Yale for the past 7 years and have served on the admissions committee reviewing applications at my own institution, and I guess I think there's much more randomness in the process than you suggest. Again, I'm not doubting your experience - I just wonder whether it's representative.

That’s difficult to answer, and even more difficult to answer without angering fans of Harvard

It’s a bit like the scene in Rain Man where he knows, instantly, that 82 toothpicks fell on the floor. I’m sure he couldn’t have verbalized how he counted them so quickly.

I favor Y over H, and I’m sure that would come out in my explanation. I have a lot of experience with Y students. I have less experience with H students and grads, but many grads seem to mention that they attended H within minutes of meeting, something that doesn’t seem to happen as quickly (if at all) with Y grads (hmmmmm).

Kidding aside, they’re both great schools, but they attract different types. I laugh every time I hear of kids who applied to every Ivy. It’s a stunt, as no human with a personality would be happy at all 8. Brown and Columbia? Please.

[TomatoTomahto]

I never said that there was one “type” at Yale. Coming back to my Brown and Columbia example, how many kids do you know that would fit well into both?

ETA: By the way, I didn't mean to imply that AOs are perfect. I think that they do much better than throwing darts, as some would have you believe, but fall short of perfection.

[jodydavis]

I never said that there was one “type” at Yale. Coming back to my Brown and Columbia example, how many kids do you know that would fit well into both?

You did say that H and Y "attract different types," but it's possible I read too much into that. My point is that, because there is such a wide range of different types within each school (from artists, to hockey players, to physics majors, to whatever), it's hard for me to see any strong patterns, much less be able to identify right away where someone went to school. It's quite possible that these patterns exist and that others are more discerning than I am, but I guess I'm just saying that my own personal experience differs from yours.

Responding to your question, I guess I don't find it hard to believe that there might be many students who would "fit well" at both schools, despite the fact that they are quite different along many dimensions. Maybe this is because I don't believe that any school is ever a perfect fit, and that the schools are large and diverse enough that many (though admittedly not all) students manage to find some degree of fit (and lack thereof).

That said, I have no problem believing that a particular student might fit better at one over the other. I also have no problem believing that a student might choose one school over the other on that basis, and that this self-selection might explain whatever differences there are between the students at one school versus the other. However, I have a harder time believing that the admissions offices can make these fit determinations with a tremendous amount of accuracy, once you get beyond the major, broad metrics.

[TomatoTomahto]

That said, I have no problem believing that a particular student might fit better at one over the other. I also have no problem believing that a student might choose one school over the other on that basis, and that this self-selection might explain whatever differences there are between the students at one school versus the other. However, I have a harder time believing that the admissions offices can make these fit determinations with a tremendous amount of accuracy, once you get beyond the major, broad metrics.

That self-selection, coupled with the advice of parents, classmates, and GC, probably leads to a very different set of applicants at schools that, at a glance, have similar stats for accepted students. You might be right, and to some extent, it might be the GCs at my son’s HS who directed applicants toward their best fit, and the AOs trusted the GC’s sense. The HS did send a high percentage of kids to selective schools, and the GCs had ongoing relationships with the AO.

Perhaps, rather than AOs being so on top of it, it’s a matter of the whole process working well at a school I’m intimately familiar with, and my generalizing beyond what the facts will support. I do know that, of the 100 kids in each of my sons’ graduating classes, there were very few “mistakes” in where the kids were accepted, at least among the 30-40 kids, give or take, that I knew well.

[daveydoo]

I have a lot of experience with Y students. I have less experience with H students and grads, but many grads seem to mention that they attended H within minutes of meeting, something that doesn’t seem to happen as quickly (if at all) with Y grads (hmmmmm).

No, they don't mention Yale within the first few minutes. But every last one of them says, "When I was in New Haven..."

All. The. Time.

[VaR]

Yes, I think that he'll be challenged at all the schools (that he applied to). While MIT might be the high end of challenging (guessing), some of the other schools could be made more challenging by finishing sooner (ex: 3 years), double major, etc.

This is just my personal opinion, but making a school more challenging by finishing sooner isn't making it more challenging in a good way. I think it's important for the actual coursework to be challenging in difficulty, not in quantity. And I think it's important to be able to have classmates who have the same depth of understanding of the course material.

I benefitted greatly by finding peers who were just as smart as I was and just as interested in the material, and in having professors who were sufficiently cutting edge to get me involved in interesting projects by my senior year. I was also weeded out of three departments where I was clearly not good enough/interested enough to make a top-level career in the field before I found the one where I had a gift for it.

But really I think the greatest gift was to tamp down my ego and to learn to work with other high caliber individuals. It's tragic for me to see colleagues at work do so much damage to themselves and others once they get it into their heads that they are the smartest guys in the room when they aren't.

This is just a perspective, not the secret to it all.