Picking College and College Scholarships

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timmy
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:17 pm

Big Dog wrote:
He may add in GT, CMU and John Hopkins.
It's Johns (with an "s"). They are kinda sensitive about that extra letter. :wink:
Too funny

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:29 pm

Pdxnative wrote:Solid list. Did you consider UNC and Duke? Both have a very competitive full ride merit scholarship-Robertson scholars-that could be life changing for the right kid (not just covering costs, but providing great opportunities). You'd be giving up some of the MIT, etc rigor, but with other benefits at two great schools. Might be worth throwing in the mix.

https://robertsonscholars.org/about-us/mission/
Thank you for the link. We will check it out.

It looks like quite the program. I'm always amazed at how generous folks can be.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:31 pm

Bfwolf wrote:Allow me to be a little bit contrarian here to all the people who are throwing out more and more schools. I'd say: stop looking. Cancel that East Coast trip. You've got 7 strong schools here. You've been done an incredible amount of due diligence. This choice of schools is being imbued with gravity that is outsized compared to its actual importance. Your son sounds like an extremely bright, highly motivated kid. He's probably going to be successful and happy wherever he goes. So just stop. Apply to these 7 schools. See where he gets in and what kind of offers he gets, and if you need to make a final visit to 2 of the schools he's deciding between at the end of the process, then do that.
Thank you for the note. We are just about ready to draw the line you mention.

The trip is tied in with some fun and family visit. I do promise ... last one.

FedGuy
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by FedGuy » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:50 pm

timmy wrote:
Big Dog wrote:Princeton is also a lottery. :D
...
True in Princeton. Just less so than MIT and Stanford.
Princeton has a lower acceptance rate than MIT. See, eg, https://blog.ivywise.com/blog-0/class-o ... sion-rates

timmy
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:40 am

FedGuy wrote:
timmy wrote:
Big Dog wrote:Princeton is also a lottery. :D
...
True in Princeton. Just less so than MIT and Stanford.
Princeton has a lower acceptance rate than MIT. See, eg, https://blog.ivywise.com/blog-0/class-o ... sion-rates
What next? No Easter Bunny.

As Jesse Jackson stated ... Keep hope alive. Keep hope alive.

timmy
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:34 am

Quick update ...

He got his last test results back. I don't fully understand the content or intent of the tests. But they are the SAT Math, Physics and History subject tests. He scored 800/800 on the first two and 780/800 on the third.

From what I see online, these tests are used at some schools (ex: MIT). They don't help much as most of the kids that take them score really well. I suppose the test is another filter (of sorts).

He started completing the online common app. (Raise your hand if ... like me ... you used a typewriter for your applications.)

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by TomatoTomahto » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:46 am

timmy wrote: He got his last test results back. I don't fully understand the content or intent of the tests. But they are the SAT Math, Physics and History subject tests. He scored 800/800 on the first two and 780/800 on the third.

From what I see online, these tests are used at some schools (ex: MIT). They don't help much as most of the kids that take them score really well. I suppose the test is another filter (of sorts).

He started completing the online common app. (Raise your hand if ... like me ... you used a typewriter for your applications.)
Math I or Math II? I'm assuming Math II, but . . .
As far as the test curves, yes, most of the kids score well. Math II, for example, a perfect 800 is "just" the 81st percentile :D
To show how far things have changed, I never even submitted an application. I attended classes at a college (not first tier, but top 50 or so at the time) as a HS junior, did well enough, went to the admissions office and said I'd like to attend, they asked if it was okay with my parents (I was a minor), I said yes, and that was it. My HS sent a "truant officer" (is that still an occupation?) to my parents' house a few times before he gave up.

Today, I might have to go through metal detectors before going into the admissions office.

wrongfunds
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by wrongfunds » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:01 am

My HS sent a "truant officer"
Why do I think there is some relationship between the words "truant officer" and "parole officer"? If it were not posted by Tomato, I would have assumed those words had very similar meaning!
Upon re-reading, I wonder if the "truant officer" was visiting Mr&Mrs Tomato because Tomato was skipping his daily high school attendance and was hanging out with college co-eds instead?

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by TomatoTomahto » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:14 am

wrongfunds wrote:
My HS sent a "truant officer"
Why do I think there is some relationship between the words "truant officer" and "parole officer"? If it were not posted by Tomato, I would have assumed those words had very similar meaning!
Upon re-reading, I wonder if the "truant officer" was visiting Mr&Mrs Tomato because Tomato was skipping his daily high school attendance and was hanging out with college co-eds instead?
My parents were liberal, but not as liberal as the dorm policies and the rules that couldn't be enforced by the geographically disadvantaged parents of the co-eds :D Oh, what a time was had by all!

Fwiw, my HS punished me by not having me appear in the yearbook, and had I dropped out of college, I would technically have been a high school dropout, and not in the Richard Branson style.

ETA: I failed to mention that it was an away school, so that I was a couple hundred miles from home when the truant officer bothered my folks.

new2bogle
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by new2bogle » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:20 pm

OP,

One of my friend's kid got into all top engineering schools (MIT, Stanford, Duke, Berkeley, GA Tech, U of Illinois) and ended up going to stanford. Absolutely hates it - the comp sci classes are 200+ kids, no prof face time. His father was lamenting to me one day that his son would have had a better education if had gone to his back up instead - U of Texas honors program (no scholarship since his parents are very well to do). There would have been 40 people in his program with lots of 1:1 time with the profs.

Choose carefully.

timmy
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:27 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
timmy wrote: He got his last test results back. I don't fully understand the content or intent of the tests. But they are the SAT Math, Physics and History subject tests. He scored 800/800 on the first two and 780/800 on the third.

From what I see online, these tests are used at some schools (ex: MIT). They don't help much as most of the kids that take them score really well. I suppose the test is another filter (of sorts).

He started completing the online common app. (Raise your hand if ... like me ... you used a typewriter for your applications.)
Math I or Math II? I'm assuming Math II, but . . .
As far as the test curves, yes, most of the kids score well. Math II, for example, a perfect 800 is "just" the 81st percentile :D
To show how far things have changed, I never even submitted an application. I attended classes at a college (not first tier, but top 50 or so at the time) as a HS junior, did well enough, went to the admissions office and said I'd like to attend, they asked if it was okay with my parents (I was a minor), I said yes, and that was it. My HS sent a "truant officer" (is that still an occupation?) to my parents' house a few times before he gave up.

Today, I might have to go through metal detectors before going into the admissions office.
Math 2 I assume.

Yes, something like 20% of the kids that take it get 800/800. From what I've read online, the only kids that need to take it are the ones competing for top ranked schools. This creates a filtering mechanism (of sorts). So the test is like an AP exam. Another way to demonstrate knowledge in a specific domain.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by TomatoTomahto » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:42 pm

Timmy wrote:Yes, something like 20% of the kids that take it get 800/800.
I wonder why they haven't made the test more difficult. With 20% getting a perfect score, it's of limited usefulness at the tippy top. But, they forgot to ask my opinion :D

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:17 pm

Even odder. I know a kid going to Purdue who was taking a bunch of placement exams. He has APs (top score on each) and SAT subject test. But still more testing!

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by 2pedals » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:30 am

new2bogle wrote:OP,

One of my friend's kid got into all top engineering schools (MIT, Stanford, Duke, Berkeley, GA Tech, U of Illinois) and ended up going to stanford. Absolutely hates it - the comp sci classes are 200+ kids, no prof face time. His father was lamenting to me one day that his son would have had a better education if had gone to his back up instead - U of Texas honors program (no scholarship since his parents are very well to do). There would have been 40 people in his program with lots of 1:1 time with the profs.

Choose carefully.
+1

I agree with this. Almost all "big name" engineering and science schools are where the professors are focused on "publish or perish" and winning the next research contract. Many of these professors even recommend that the undergraduate students stay away from the same college that they work for. Graduate school is where the real value is when attending these schools.

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SkierMom
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by SkierMom » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:43 am

UIUC Engineering alum here.......um sorry, but if your priority is to avoid debt what's wrong with staying in-state again?

University of Illinois College of Engineering U.S. News and World Report Rankings (published September 2016)
7 Aerospace
3 Agricultural
21 Biomedical**
11 Chemical
1 Civil
4 Computer Engineering
5 Electrical / Electronic / Communications
2 Engineering Physics**
5 Environmental / Environmental Health
12 Industrial / Manufacturing
2 Materials
6 Mechanical

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:41 pm

UIUC Engineering alum here.......um sorry, but if your priority is to avoid debt what's wrong with staying in-state again?
It's on the list.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:20 am

My son just started Senior year. Let the college application game begin! :beer

We feel good about the research that we've completed and the work we've done. The list of schools that he'll apply to include some very challenging (low chance of getting into) and not so challenging schools (easier to get into). He'd be fortunate to attend any of them. There is a good life lesson in this: control what you can control and don't worry about the rest. Or something like that.

His school does a nice job kicking off the year with short sessions on ... You need to know this and you should be doing that.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by AllenSmith » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:49 am

$10k, $20k or even *gasp* $50k of debt after college isn't going to that big of a deal for an engineer especially if he has near perfect PSATs and takes school seriously.

Don't limit his options just because "its your money." Didn't you set aside this money for your son? for this purpose?

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Bfwolf » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:50 pm

AllenSmith wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:49 am
$10k, $20k or even *gasp* $50k of debt after college isn't going to that big of a deal for an engineer especially if he has near perfect PSATs and takes school seriously.

Don't limit his options just because "its your money." Didn't you set aside this money for your son? for this purpose?
The son in question is going to be able to become a successful engineer no matter which of these schools he attends. Research suggests his lifetime earnings will not be better going to a more expensive/higher reputation school. The idea that price doesn't matter when it comes to college is incredibly pernicious.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by ny_knicks » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:51 pm

Bfwolf wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:50 pm
Research suggests his lifetime earnings will not be better going to a more expensive/higher reputation school. The idea that price doesn't matter when it comes to college is incredibly pernicious.
While I agree that it sounds like the OPs son will find success no matter what school he goes to on that list the thought that lifetime earnings are not impacted by higher reputation schools seems absurd.

There are plenty of studies that track students after graduation and there is certainly a correlation between earnings and selectivity of the school. While I admittedly skimmed the first page of google the research in this article seems to agree.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/201 ... ngs-payoff

There is likely little difference in the doors that will open for the OP's son based on his list of schools. But for others who might be facing a decision between flagship state school (that is significantly lower ranked) vs a higher ranked private, I think a lot of due diligence needs to be done. Doors can close based on what companies recruit on campus and how graduate schools will perceive their application. There is no better investment than in yours/or your kids education. A little debt now can go a long way later in life.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Bfwolf » Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:49 pm

ny_knicks wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:51 pm
Bfwolf wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:50 pm
Research suggests his lifetime earnings will not be better going to a more expensive/higher reputation school. The idea that price doesn't matter when it comes to college is incredibly pernicious.
While I agree that it sounds like the OPs son will find success no matter what school he goes to on that list the thought that lifetime earnings are not impacted by higher reputation schools seems absurd.

There are plenty of studies that track students after graduation and there is certainly a correlation between earnings and selectivity of the school. While I admittedly skimmed the first page of google the research in this article seems to agree.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/201 ... ngs-payoff

There is likely little difference in the doors that will open for the OP's son based on his list of schools. But for others who might be facing a decision between flagship state school (that is significantly lower ranked) vs a higher ranked private, I think a lot of due diligence needs to be done. Doors can close based on what companies recruit on campus and how graduate schools will perceive their application. There is no better investment than in yours/or your kids education. A little debt now can go a long way later in life.
Yes there is a correlation. The research I have seen suggests it is due to the kinds of kids these schools attract, not what the college provides to the kids. The causation is reversed. The kind of person you are at 18 has a huge causal impact on both the kind of college you go to and the kind of earnings you'll make.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by ny_knicks » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:41 pm

Bfwolf wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:49 pm
Yes there is a correlation. The research I have seen suggests it is due to the kinds of kids these schools attract, not what the college provides to the kids. The causation is reversed. The kind of person you are at 18 has a huge causal impact on both the kind of college you go to and the kind of earnings you'll make.
Definitely agree that the kind of person you are at 18 will ultimately have a greater bearing on earnings than the school you attend.

But the schools do offer something...access to the companies recruiting platforms. Top companies actively recruit from a select group schools. They come on campus, host information sessions and interview on the spot. They have allotted a certain number of offers for specific schools and they give them out year after year. The alumni networks at these schools are crucial pipelines in securing jobs at some of the most coveted companies in the country both at graduation and beyond.

There is a value to all of this. For some people it won't matter where they go, they were destined to be successful. For the vast majority of people though a leg up at the start can be huge. First thing kids should do today when they are visiting a school is ask what companies come on campus and where graduates from the program they're interested in went on to work. The difference in schools will become quite evident.

An Ivey where Google took 15% of the comp sci students in last year's class or the flagship state school where they have no on campus presence. That extra $50k might be worth it with first year comp hitting $175k.

Getting an engineering position is competitive at ExxonMobil for a student from Purdue where their recruiting team is on campus throughout the year. Forget it if you did engineering from a generic state school.

Again OPs list there is likely no difference. But a lot of Bogleheads just jump to the state school option because its cheap without considering that the ladder to climb might become a lot harder if the individual has aspirations to work at top firms.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:45 am

AllenSmith wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:49 am
$10k, $20k or even *gasp* $50k of debt after college isn't going to that big of a deal for an engineer especially if he has near perfect PSATs and takes school seriously.

Don't limit his options just because "its your money." Didn't you set aside this money for your son? for this purpose?
Yes, money is set aside. Access to it requires accepting our guidance.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:53 am

My sense is based on readings and my own experience is elite schools offer some additional benefit.

Right now, it is a hypothetical argument. If we find ourselves in the rare situation of U of IL at $30K/ year vs. MIT at $50K/ year (best I can tell what each school would cost ... round numbers) and MIT was the preferred school, then we'd ask the $80K (or whatever the delta) question. It's not worth stressing about it.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Soul.in.Progress » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:09 am

ny_knicks wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:41 pm
Bfwolf wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:49 pm
Yes there is a correlation. The research I have seen suggests it is due to the kinds of kids these schools attract, not what the college provides to the kids. The causation is reversed. The kind of person you are at 18 has a huge causal impact on both the kind of college you go to and the kind of earnings you'll make.
Definitely agree that the kind of person you are at 18 will ultimately have a greater bearing on earnings than the school you attend.

But the schools do offer something...access to the companies recruiting platforms. Top companies actively recruit from a select group schools. They come on campus, host information sessions and interview on the spot. They have allotted a certain number of offers for specific schools and they give them out year after year. The alumni networks at these schools are crucial pipelines in securing jobs at some of the most coveted companies in the country both at graduation and beyond.

There is a value to all of this. For some people it won't matter where they go, they were destined to be successful. For the vast majority of people though a leg up at the start can be huge. First thing kids should do today when they are visiting a school is ask what companies come on campus and where graduates from the program they're interested in went on to work. The difference in schools will become quite evident.

An Ivey where Google took 15% of the comp sci students in last year's class or the flagship state school where they have no on campus presence. That extra $50k might be worth it with first year comp hitting $175k.

Getting an engineering position is competitive at ExxonMobil for a student from Purdue where their recruiting team is on campus throughout the year. Forget it if you did engineering from a generic state school.

Again OPs list there is likely no difference. But a lot of Bogleheads just jump to the state school option because its cheap without considering that the ladder to climb might become a lot harder if the individual has aspirations to work at top firms.
From my experience, I can vouch that the above is so very true. I am a long time employee of a highly coveted megacorp in my geographic region, and little did I know when I graduated from a reputable engineering school that this megacorp only recruited at six universities nationwide, including the one I had attended. I have since been part of the recruitment activities and they are still pretty strict--decades later--about hiring only from certain schools.
Start by doing what is necessary; | then do what is possible; | and suddenly you are doing the impossible. | -- Francis of Assisi

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:55 am

Agree on the filtering process of large companies. I think it makes it tougher for kids from "regular" schools. However, with some hustle, I think it is possible to both "catch-up" and "outperform".

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by wrongfunds » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:39 am

The simple fact is on average, higher ranked school will open more doors for average kid. Of course, we are NOT talking about average kid here, are we?? :-)

Just to take the Google example, Google may not show up at the flagship state school for hiring and will come at top ranked private (read expensive) but how do you know if your kid would have been *the* one selected by Google if only he had attended the private? I also do not believe that Google/Amazon/Microsoft skip over UVA, UMich or UMd etc type of flagship state schools.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Beehave » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:17 pm

Why is everyone so dead-set certain that a career at Google or Exxon-Mobile is ideal either in general or for this particular student? There are so many small startups dancing circles around the big guys. How pigeon-holed will this young man be with the career-paths envisioned in the posts above on this topic? I haven't seen one post mentioning this youth's interest in music (granted, I've not read them all). If it were my child, I'd focus on what his unique combined skills and interests are and work it from there.

If it's going to be a large school and money is an overriding consideration, then the answer is U of Illinois hands-down.

But what are his true interests? What is his learning style? If merging music and engineering will make sense (design instruments or equipment or engineer environments for recording or performing), then I'd also be looking at smaller schools that provide more individualized attention from eclectic faculties. Rochester Institute of Technology might fit that bill for an overtly engineering-oriented school with smaller classes and faculty that cares.

An off-the-charts outside-the-box alternative would be Swarthmore's engineering program (bachelor's degree in engineering). Take a look along with your son at Swarthmore's literature on their engineering program and if it speaks to him, then go there and take a look. Why waste on-site visits on a bunch of carbon-copies of U of Illinois engineering school when you can take the opportunity to look at alternatives that may speak to more of his talents than just one narrow path and may provide him (a) with a career of joy doing intellectual things in a field he loves (possibly engineering applied to music technology) and (b) an actual social life with ample opportunities for meeting and studying with very interesting, talented, and likely to-do-well women in a place like Swarthmore.

I know the thoughts of an engineering degree from a smaller "second-tier" engineering school or first-rate liberal arts college will bring howls of protest here, but the young man's future needs to be looked at with an open mind, especially given the rate with which change is taking place now and in the future. The workplace demands more and more - - you'd best be bringing passion to the game or else. The individualized attention, faculty interest, and ability to explore at places like RIT and Swarthmore are of huge benefit. Moreover, these schools may well be more rewarding in terms of scholarship money for an engineering student with multiple interests and talents who stands out from their usual crowd, than the big engineering schools where he will be just another outstanding candidate.

Best wishes, hope this is helpful. For what it's worth I have a philosophy and math background as a student and college faculty member, then migrated to an IT career with many patents and significant product development. I have 3 kids with good careers who went through private and public colleges for undergrad and grad degrees, and now retired, teach nights in a backwater community college (lots of returning veterans and moms who started families young). I've seen a lot and offer these considerations based on experience including a STEM-oriented oldest child who was similar in many ways to your son who I did not take out loans for (out of job insecurity at the time and concern how it might affect my 2 younger kids) and strongly discouraged her from taking out larger loans. Although things have worked out well for her, it is one of the few major decisions I've mde that I would go back and change if I could. Be careful to think through what the right school is for your child based on your knowledge and gut feel plus their input, and then do what's needed to get them there if you can.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:31 pm

wrongfunds wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:39 am
The simple fact is on average, higher ranked school will open more doors for average kid. Of course, we are NOT talking about average kid here, are we?? :-)

Just to take the Google example, Google may not show up at the flagship state school for hiring and will come at top ranked private (read expensive) but how do you know if your kid would have been *the* one selected by Google if only he had attended the private? I also do not believe that Google/Amazon/Microsoft skip over UVA, UMich or UMd etc type of flagship state schools.
I can't speak for state schools in general. I know that both U of Mich and U of IL engineering are highly recruited programs.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:45 pm

Beehave wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:17 pm
Why is everyone so dead-set certain that a career at Google or Exxon-Mobile is ideal either in general or for this particular student? There are so many small startups dancing circles around the big guys. How pigeon-holed will this young man be with the career-paths envisioned in the posts above on this topic? I haven't seen one post mentioning this youth's interest in music (granted, I've not read them all). If it were my child, I'd focus on what his unique combined skills and interests are and work it from there.

If it's going to be a large school and money is an overriding consideration, then the answer is U of Illinois hands-down.

But what are his true interests? What is his learning style? If merging music and engineering will make sense (design instruments or equipment or engineer environments for recording or performing), then I'd also be looking at smaller schools that provide more individualized attention from eclectic faculties. Rochester Institute of Technology might fit that bill for an overtly engineering-oriented school with smaller classes and faculty that cares.

An off-the-charts outside-the-box alternative would be Swarthmore's engineering program (bachelor's degree in engineering). Take a look along with your son at Swarthmore's literature on their engineering program and if it speaks to him, then go there and take a look. Why waste on-site visits on a bunch of carbon-copies of U of Illinois engineering school when you can take the opportunity to look at alternatives that may speak to more of his talents than just one narrow path and may provide him (a) with a career of joy doing intellectual things in a field he loves (possibly engineering applied to music technology) and (b) an actual social life with ample opportunities for meeting and studying with very interesting, talented, and likely to-do-well women in a place like Swarthmore.

I know the thoughts of an engineering degree from a smaller "second-tier" engineering school or first-rate liberal arts college will bring howls of protest here, but the young man's future needs to be looked at with an open mind, especially given the rate with which change is taking place now and in the future. The workplace demands more and more - - you'd best be bringing passion to the game or else. The individualized attention, faculty interest, and ability to explore at places like RIT and Swarthmore are of huge benefit. Moreover, these schools may well be more rewarding in terms of scholarship money for an engineering student with multiple interests and talents who stands out from their usual crowd, than the big engineering schools where he will be just another outstanding candidate.

Best wishes, hope this is helpful. For what it's worth I have a philosophy and math background as a student and college faculty member, then migrated to an IT career with many patents and significant product development. I have 3 kids with good careers who went through private and public colleges for undergrad and grad degrees, and now retired, teach nights in a backwater community college (lots of returning veterans and moms who started families young). I've seen a lot and offer these considerations based on experience including a STEM-oriented oldest child who was similar in many ways to your son who I did not take out loans for (out of job insecurity at the time and concern how it might affect my 2 younger kids) and strongly discouraged her from taking out larger loans. Although things have worked out well for her, it is one of the few major decisions I've mde that I would go back and change if I could. Be careful to think through what the right school is for your child based on your knowledge and gut feel plus their input, and then do what's needed to get them there if you can.
My Dad was a blue collar worker (trades). For him, "the man" was his boss or his boss's boss. That level of success required a college degree. Guess what, my siblings and I have college degrees. We've all exceeded his goal. :sharebeer

As many can attest, being "the man" (woman) is nice but it's not everything. To my kids, I've been preaching that it's best to be an owner ... own your own business. The grass is greener there :oops:

His top choices are MIT and Rose-Hulman. Why? I think MIT because it is MIT. His second choice is Rose-Hulman. He's likes their hands-on approach. He could also double or triple major and finish early (Electrical, Computer and Business/ Finance).

We'll look at RIT and Swartchmore. Thanks for the tip.

timmy
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:32 am

Sept:

Labor Day Weekend: The final list of schools will be finalized this weekend. (As you read that ... you should have heard dramatic music in the background.)

Most of the common app is filled out.

By mid-September, he should be hitting send on most of the applications (or however that works).

Oct:

He'll need to schedule an interview with an MIT alum. We hear that helps.

Someone from ND invited him to a "day in the life". So he'll attend that.

Oct/Nov:

Scholarship search.

Apply for schools that may show up on the radar and relatively easy to apply to (via common app).

Starts job tutoring math.

Wait.

Overall, we are happy with the process to this point and the research/ prep that we've done. With 3 kids, the investment in research feels appropriate. Why? 12 years of life will be spent in college. And potentially $100,000 to $500,000. Our many site visits have let me spend alone time with my oldest son. It has/ will let me teach him about project management, money, priorities, decision making, etc. inside a skin in the game/ real world situation.

More to come ...

And thanks for all the feedback to this point.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by student » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:41 am

Thanks for the update.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by livesoft » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:56 am

timmy wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:32 am
overall, we are happy with the process to this point and the research/ prep that we've done. With 3 kids, the investment in research feels appropriate.
Yep, the 2nd kid won't get any college visits until accepted and the 3rd kid won't visit their university before their freshman week. The parents (or at least one of them) will laugh why they spent so much time on it with the first one -- who decided to become a seashell collage artist a year after graduation. "Colleges? I thought that was all about collages?"--
This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:08 am

Livesoft, for a person with 55,000+ posts, you under estimate the commitment and discipline of others!

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:23 am

timmy wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:08 am
Livesoft, for a person with 55,000+ posts, you under estimate the commitment and discipline of others!
Nah, he's just been there and done that.

timmy
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:20 pm

I set a SIRI reminder to report back in 8 years. My hope is SIRI can maintain her focus too ... and remind me :oops:

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by daveydoo » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:34 pm

livesoft wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:56 am
Yep, the 2nd kid won't get any college visits until accepted and the 3rd kid won't visit their university before their freshman week.
+1. I was a third kid :D

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by itstoomuch » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:01 pm

JMO on visitations.
Left Coast family. Visiting eastern universities was for son just too time consuming and expensive for us. A visitation offered small marginal benefit for a slim chance. Besides even in 2001, the internet was developed enough for a virtual visitation and use of FAQ. DS thinks visitations are important even though he only did one and that was for grad school. He likes exploring which I think is his prime motivation.
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timmy
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:08 pm

Travel is not a barrier. I'm in most parts of the country on a quarterly basis. With miles, putting my kid on a plane costs very little.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Dottie57 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:17 pm

timmy wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:45 am
AllenSmith wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:49 am
$10k, $20k or even *gasp* $50k of debt after college isn't going to that big of a deal for an engineer especially if he has near perfect PSATs and takes school seriously.

Don't limit his options just because "its your money." Didn't you set aside this money for your son? for this purpose?
Yes, money is set aside. Access to it requires accepting our guidance.
It is possible for you to be wrong.

My cost in 1975 is a lot less than that of kids in 2000. Your circumstances are not what your son faces. His path to a productive career may not be the same as yours. Try to open your eyes to the world as it exists today.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:00 pm

Yes, we could be wrong.

We are very aware of how things are today and doing quite well in that world.

First, a premise ... The choice of engineering is his. (For fun this summer, the kid read 2 physics books, 1 stats book and 2 coding books. He used his birthday money to buy $200 worth of electronic stuff. He/ his friends spent a number of hours messing around with it.)

Second, illustrate a "bad" outcome by following our guidance ... He goes to the U of IL for engineering. He graduates from a top 5 engineering school with a double engineering major, no debt, and makes $100K his first year out of school. And he's mad because he didn't get into MIT or he got into MIT and didn't receive any funds.

I'm good with the bad outcome.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by WildBill » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:36 pm

Howdy

Unsolicited advice, based on personal experience from two generations of students....

If your son is accepted at MIT, go to MIT.

It is an institution of great integrity and purpose that will give him an incalculable advantage due to the quality of education, the excellence of his peer group and the opportunities he will have at his doorstep.

By the way - all in it is circa 60K per year.

Ouch. But well worth it.

Best of luck to your son. :happy

W B
"Through chances various, through all vicissitudes, we make our way." Virgil, The Aeneid

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Big Dog » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:51 pm

If we find ourselves in the rare situation of U of IL at $30K/ year vs. MIT at $50K/ year (best I can tell what each school would cost ...
fwiw: IL is more like $35k instate and MIT is $67k.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:57 am

Big dog, correct. I believe the statement was meant to be hypothetical for decision making. Point was ... we are going through a process. Decisions are made at the end, with full information.

That said, for private schools, sticker price is near useless. There are tools that offer a better view of costs. All discussed above.

timmy
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:03 am

Wild bill

Would you make the claim about the ivies or just MIT?

My sense is if it is true ... it is only true about MIT and Stanford ... for engineering.

Harvard and Yale might have that same mojo ... for business. Etc.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:26 am

timmy wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:03 am
Wild bill
Would you make the claim about the ivies or just MIT?
My sense is if it is true ... it is only true about MIT and Stanford ... for engineering.
Harvard and Yale might have that same mojo ... for business. Etc.
I guess it depends on how narrowly you define engineering and business. Most of DS's friends, at a mixture of Yale, MIT, Princeton, Harvard, UPenn, Cornell, CMU, etc. have no complaints about their job offers, and the offers are in a range of fields. And yes, there are also some from U of IL who have no complaints. And UMich, and UVA, etc.

Everyone gets to vote with their minds and wallets. To claim limited mojo for some of these schools, though, is akin to holding your hands over your ears and shouting "nah, nah, nah, I can't hear you."

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by timmy » Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:45 am

Fair. I suppose this debate is academic and not overly useful.

True story ... I have a friend (close in our teens/20s, we keep up with each in our 40s). He was a rock star football player. He played in college. He wasn't good enough for the NFL, so went north. He played for ~10 years. He made good money, had fun and dated really hot women, finally marrying one. She's one of the most decent people you'll ever meet. They have nice kids. He's now living an upper middle class existence (in Canada). There life is good. (He's the good state school in my analogy :oops:)

If important outcomes could be measured (happiness, ethics, etc.), I bet his life is better than most top NFL players. (The Ivies in my excellent analogy.)

I'll report back around FASFA time. Have a nice holiday weekend, Canada and USA :sharebeer

2pedals
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by 2pedals » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:00 am

daveydoo wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:34 pm
livesoft wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:56 am
Yep, the 2nd kid won't get any college visits until accepted and the 3rd kid won't visit their university before their freshman week.
+1. I was a third kid :D
...and...
I was a 4th kid and my high school physics teacher sent me on a field trip to the local state engineering school.

Big Dog
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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by Big Dog » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:11 am

I believe the statement was meant to be hypothetical for decision making. Point was ... we are going through a process.
Understand, but my way of thinking about college for my kids was value vs. price. A top private (like need-only MIT) is a little less than 2x the cost of Urbana-Champaign. The question becomes, does a need-only top private (or even U-Michigan or Berkeley) provide 2x more value than UI? If so, sticker might be worth it.

Of course, Rose Hulman and CMU offer merit aid, so they are even less than sticker.

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Re: Picking College and College Scholarships

Post by DrGoogle2017 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:26 am

When my kid applied to Purdue, the school only gave her $10k per year for scholarship. Not enough to go out of state. Michigan gave her nothing. But I was glad she had them on her list because she knew by Dec that she was accepted somewhere, softened the blow of being waitlisted at MIT, even after doing the WTP there in the summer. In the end she went in state to the school in the top 15 for CS, she was a Regents scholar, and had a great experience there. She was a tutor after freshman year and then TA, and head TA junior year. Extremely supportive faculty. This is a kid with top SAT scores and top GPAs. Maybe a bit lacking on ECs. But not a kid who's reading Physics in the summer or coding in her spare time for fun. So I think your kid will do well regardless of the school.

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