Silver market was allegedly fixed

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
Locked
User avatar
Topic Author
sperry8
Posts: 2228
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:25 pm
Location: Miami FL

Silver market was allegedly fixed

Post by sperry8 »

Just finished reading this article about the major banks who rigged the silver market
http://www.minyanville.com/business-new ... 6/id/58997

Stunning stuff. Will be interesting to see what penalties, if any, come of it.

If true, it's another reason why it's hard to trade against the market. At least when we buy & hold over the long term, these sorts of short term manipulations don't matter as much. The boglehead way wins again.
BH contest results: 2019: #233 of 645 | 18: #150 of 493 | 17: #516 of 647 | 16: #121 of 610 | 15: #18 of 552 | 14: #225 of 503 | 13: #383 of 433 | 12: #366 of 410 | 11: #113 of 369 | 10: #53 of 282
TomCat96
Posts: 1040
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:18 pm

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Post by TomCat96 »

sperry8 wrote:Just finished reading this article about the major banks who rigged the silver market
http://www.minyanville.com/business-new ... 6/id/58997

Stunning stuff. Will be interesting to see what penalties, if any, come of it.

If true, it's another reason why it's hard to trade against the market. At least when we buy & hold over the long term, these sorts of short term manipulations don't matter as much. The boglehead way wins again.

Only if the market is the right kind of market.
The fact is one cannot willy-nilly pick any market to just try to apply a boglehead philosophy to.
I wouldnt for example, recommend going 100% VGPMX and going full boglehead there, calling dips noise, staying the course.
The endeavor itself may be said to be unsound.

One reason I like VTI is collectively, it's so big, there are very few players in the world with the capability of manipulating it.
User avatar
Topic Author
sperry8
Posts: 2228
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:25 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Post by sperry8 »

That's why I said the market. Not a sector of the market, but the boglehead way of buying the whole market fully diversified. Hard to manipulate that over the long term.
BH contest results: 2019: #233 of 645 | 18: #150 of 493 | 17: #516 of 647 | 16: #121 of 610 | 15: #18 of 552 | 14: #225 of 503 | 13: #383 of 433 | 12: #366 of 410 | 11: #113 of 369 | 10: #53 of 282
Jack FFR1846
Posts: 12829
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:05 am
Location: 26 miles, 385 yards west of Copley Square

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Interesting article. Unfortunately, I expect that all the defendant banks will pay fines and go their merry way. When executives go to real jail, they'll keep their houses in order. A bunch of perp walks are really needed or they'll just go doing this again.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
boglephreak
Posts: 441
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:16 pm

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Post by boglephreak »

no idea whether any of this is true or not, but thats a horribly written article that appears results oriented to decry wall street, and relying upon a civil complaint's allegations to prove a point is like asking the wolf what he is doing in the hen house.
User avatar
Topic Author
sperry8
Posts: 2228
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:25 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Post by sperry8 »

Jack FFR1846 wrote:Interesting article. Unfortunately, I expect that all the defendant banks will pay fines and go their merry way. When executives go to real jail, they'll keep their houses in order. A bunch of perp walks are really needed or they'll just go doing this again.
Agreed.
boglephreak wrote:no idea whether any of this is true or not, but thats a horribly written article that appears results oriented to decry wall street, and relying upon a civil complaint's allegations to prove a point is like asking the wolf what he is doing in the hen house.
I'm no expert in this case... but Bloomberg says they previously settled to a lawsuit for manipulating silver prices and as part of that, they handed over documents showing other banks were in on it.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ver-prices

It appears to me that you are suggesting that we cannot ever trust the one who "cuts the deal". I know many Italian mobsters who agree with that :shock:
BH contest results: 2019: #233 of 645 | 18: #150 of 493 | 17: #516 of 647 | 16: #121 of 610 | 15: #18 of 552 | 14: #225 of 503 | 13: #383 of 433 | 12: #366 of 410 | 11: #113 of 369 | 10: #53 of 282
boglephreak
Posts: 441
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:16 pm

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Post by boglephreak »

sperry8 wrote:
Jack FFR1846 wrote:Interesting article. Unfortunately, I expect that all the defendant banks will pay fines and go their merry way. When executives go to real jail, they'll keep their houses in order. A bunch of perp walks are really needed or they'll just go doing this again.
Agreed.
boglephreak wrote:no idea whether any of this is true or not, but thats a horribly written article that appears results oriented to decry wall street, and relying upon a civil complaint's allegations to prove a point is like asking the wolf what he is doing in the hen house.
I'm no expert in this case... but Bloomberg says they previously settled to a lawsuit for manipulating silver prices and as part of that, they handed over documents showing other banks were in on it.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ver-prices

It appears to me that you are suggesting that we cannot ever trust the one who "cuts the deal". I know many Italian mobsters who agree with that :shock:
i have no idea what you are talking about and how the mob is relevant. i am making no judgment based on deutsche bank cutting a deal. i am saying the article is horribly written and makes me seriously doubt its veracity just based on the statements made in it. journalism is supposed to be objective, not results oriented.

some examples (keep in mind that deutsche bank has not admitted to anything, so nothing has been proven; settling and denying liability is the norm, not the exception; also, the regulators have investigated and apparently not found sufficient evidence of wrongdoing despite the allegations of a "smoking gun"):
apparently not among the banking class of criminals
We know banks have been rigging all sorts of markets and sticking it to their own customers for a long, long time with little repercussion.
Regulatory capture - the cozy relationship between Wall Street and the bureaucrats who often want nothing more than to land a high-paying job there - is a real problem.
After spending more than 7,000 enforcement hours, officials there somehow managed to miss what appears to be institutionalized cheating over a period lasting years.
And, because it is a civil matter, the case cannot be derailed by inept or compromised regulators.
The new evidence might even be too compelling for regulators to keep looking the other way.
if this was just an opinion piece, i would give it a little more leniency. but good lord, this is not objective reporting. its results oriented and utter trash. they should be ashamed they published this.

the bloomberg article is much better.
User avatar
Topic Author
sperry8
Posts: 2228
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:25 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Post by sperry8 »

Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. Not sure what all those quotes are... did they come from an article surrounding this case?

Anyway... I sent the Bloomberg article because I figured there reporting would be better. It'll be interesting to see what comes of all this, but I fear like you say it'll be settlements with fines and no admission of wrong-doing. But hey, we all know what that means anyway.
BH contest results: 2019: #233 of 645 | 18: #150 of 493 | 17: #516 of 647 | 16: #121 of 610 | 15: #18 of 552 | 14: #225 of 503 | 13: #383 of 433 | 12: #366 of 410 | 11: #113 of 369 | 10: #53 of 282
boglephreak
Posts: 441
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:16 pm

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Post by boglephreak »

sperry8 wrote:Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. Not sure what all those quotes are... did they come from an article surrounding this case?

Anyway... I sent the Bloomberg article because I figured there reporting would be better. It'll be interesting to see what comes of all this, but I fear like you say it'll be settlements with fines and no admission of wrong-doing. But hey, we all know what that means anyway.
those quotes came from the article you linked in the original post.
sandramjet
Posts: 307
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:28 pm

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Post by sandramjet »

I didn't read the article, but just the words "silver market" bring to mind (well for some, anyway) the Hunt brothers and their effort to manipulate that market....
tacster
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:08 am
Location: Limbo.

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Post by tacster »

sandramjet wrote:I didn't read the article, but just the words "silver market" bring to mind (well for some, anyway) the Hunt brothers and their effort to manipulate that market....
Yep that's what I thought the thread was referring to.
INSERT PITHY QUOTE HERE
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 67314
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Silver market was allegedly fixed

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread has run its course and is locked (not actionable, stupidity of other people). See: Unacceptable Topics
Non-actionable (Trolling) Topics

If readers can't do anything with the content of a topic other than argue about it, it does not belong here. Examples include:
  • US or world economic, political, tax, health care and climate policies
  • conspiracy theories of any type
  • discussions of the crimes, shortcomings or stupidity of other people, whether they be political figures, celebrities, CEOs, Fed chairmen, subprime mortgage borrowers, lottery winners, federal "bailout" recipients, poor people, rich people, etc. Of course, you are welcome to talk about the stupid financial things you have done.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
Locked