June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton [D-Day plus 11 days, a war article by Ernie Pyle]

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June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton [D-Day plus 11 days, a war article by Ernie Pyle]

Post by Sheepdog » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:14 pm

[Thread updated, see below. --admin LadyGeek]

The 75th anniversary of D Day, 6/6/44, the beginning of the end of the war with Nazi Germany, occurred when the Allies landed on the beaches of Normandy France.. Many thousands died on both sides in the following months. (side note:One of our Bogleheads, Taylor Larimore, fought bravely in that war most notably in the Battle of the Bulge.)
I was but a 12 year old when the invasion occurred. When the announcement came over the radio that the invasion had begun, I can remember the neighbors yelling (and praying...my family did..).

There is an interesting story which I just came across of how General George Patton affected D Day even though he was not involved with the invasion.
This story is from the book Patton: Blood, Guts, and Prayer © 2012 by Michael Keane. "Patton’s Role in D-Day" and partially copied at History on the Net <https://www.historyonthenet.com/pattons-role-in-d-day>

"George S. Patton was not directly involved in the implementation or planning of the Invasion of Normandy. But that is not to say that he did not perform his own critical part in its success.
Like the rest of the world, Patton learned of the Normandy invasion by listening to the BBC at seven o’clock on the morning of June 6, 1944. Though he had been sidelined from the invasion, he played an important role in it by his absence. In February 1944, Overlord planners at Supreme Allied Headquarters had formulated a plan—“Operation Fortitude South”—to deceive the Nazi commanders into thinking that the Normandy landings were merely a feint to draw German defenders away from a main Allied invasion at Pas de Calais. The Germans were fed information that when the bridgehead was established by six Allied assault divisions, a huge force of fifty divisions would exploit the opening. As the official British history notes, it was “the most complex and successful deception operation in the entire history of the war.”
A month after the Normandy invasion, secretly landing at an airstrip near Omaha Beach, Patton entered a waiting jeep. When army and navy personnel rushed up to see him, Patton stood and delivered a short impromptu speech: “I’m proud to be here to fight beside you. Now let’s cut the guts out of those Krauts and get the hell on to Berlin. And when we get to Berlin, I am going to personally shoot that paperhanging goddamned son of a bitch just like I would a snake.”
The troops cheered Patton’s remarks. He soon learned that he was to lead the Third Army and that his first responsibility was to clear the Brest peninsula of Germans. Patton’s presence was still a secret to the enemy. He wrote to his wife Beatrice on July 10, 1944, “Sunday I went to a field mass. It was quite impressive. All the men with rifles and helmets, the altar the back of a jeep. Planes on combat missions flying over and the sound of guns all the while. . . . There is nothing to do at the moment but be a secret weapon.”
Eisenhower prepared to leak a story that Patton had lost his command because of “displeasure at some of his indiscretions” and that the main invasion of the continent was delayed by bad weather. This deception caused the Germans to delay a counter-attack that might have crushed or seriously set back the Allied invasion. By providing a plausible reason for Patton’s removal, the notorious slapping incidents contributed to the success of the deception. It is thus one of history’s ironies that General Patton’s greatest victory might have come in a battle in which he played no active role."

Bogleheads, We have much to be thankful for with the defeat of the Axis Powers (including Japan in the East), don't we.?
AND, THANK YOU TAYLOR, THANK YOU for your brave contributions in the defeat..

Jim

p.s. A llttle more:
Here are a very few quotes from General George S. Patton which may be of interest in studying that man:
"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity"
"If a man has done his best, what else is there?"
"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week."
"I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom."
"People who are not themselves are nobody"

Thanks to all veterans of that War and all of the other wars to protect us all,

(edited to correct copy)
It's not what you gather, but what you scatter which tells what kind of life you have lived---Helen Walton

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by bob60014 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:06 pm

One of the greatest deceptions ever. Patton, like MacArthur in the Pacific, were so in love with themselves, but they got results, always keeping the axis commands worried. Had Patton been a man of more humility and less of a leader, the deception never would have worked.

And thanks to all that served!

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by FootballFan5548 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:10 pm

It's always a special day for me.
My grandfather jumped into Normandy with the 101st AB, 506th PIR, F Company. This was the sister company of the famed Easy Company from Band of Brothers fame. Fox company was side by side with Easy Company every step of the way, without all of the fanfare.

My grandfather was an original Toccoa, GA paratrooper from 1942, made the jump into Normandy, Holland, and the truck ride to Bastogne where he was wounded on Dec. 27th, 1944 and evacuated.

D-Day, the day of days, is always a topic I've taken tremendous interest in.

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by HawkeyePierce » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:22 pm

My grandfather was supposed to land at Normandy three days after the invasion but their transport ship sank in the English Channel. They were picked up by a returning vessel and didn't attempt another landing until three months later.

What a stroke of luck!

Seven members of my grandfather's unit are buried at Normandy. I had a chance to visit the American Cemetery at Normandy a few years ago and photograph the gravestones of those seven men. All Americans should visit if given the chance. During college I studied in France and used that opportunity to retrace part of my grandfather's steps during the war, from Normandy to the Hurtgen Forest to Remagen to Leipzig.

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by One Ping » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:22 pm

bob60014 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:06 pm
One of the greatest deceptions ever. Patton, like MacArthur in the Pacific, were so in love with themselves, but they got results, always keeping the axis commands worried. Had Patton been a man of more humility and less of a leader, the deception never would have worked.

And thanks to all that served!
And kudos to "Ike" for figuring out how to use that massive ego to the benefit of all. :beer
"Re-verify our range to target ... one ping only."

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by catdude » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:37 am

Several days ago, the Washington Post published an article written by one of its staff writers, about his grandfather's secret D-Day diary. The article is well worth reading:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mag ... 992d6fdd5b
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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by Sheepdog » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:21 am

catdude wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:37 am
Several days ago, the Washington Post published an article written by one of its staff writers, about his grandfather's secret D-Day diary. The article is well worth reading:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mag ... 992d6fdd5b
Thank you! I would hope that everyone read that. What a great generation....brave men, fighters, and gentle love of country and family men at the same time.
It's not what you gather, but what you scatter which tells what kind of life you have lived---Helen Walton

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by mancich » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:05 am

Truly "The Greatest Generation". I watched "Saving Private Ryan" again over Memorial Day weekend, and couldn't help but be struck by awe and gratitude at the thought of all these young men storming that beach, probably scared out of their wits, many losing their lives, to defeat tyranny. Amazing.

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by Valuethinker » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:19 am

bob60014 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:06 pm
One of the greatest deceptions ever. Patton, like MacArthur in the Pacific, were so in love with themselves, but they got results, always keeping the axis commands worried. Had Patton been a man of more humility and less of a leader, the deception never would have worked.

And thanks to all that served!
I agree that someone with such a carefully calculated image as Patton was critical to the deception - inventing a whole army that would (supposedly) invade at the Pas-de-Calais region (opposite Dover) and thus pinning 15 German divisions there, even after D Day.

With the proviso that there is such a thing as a great, humble leader.

Some great leaders are egomaniacs, some are not.

Patton was very attentive to his public image. However he also understood the command value of that - his cultivated warrior persona (pearl handed pistols, etc.), driving to the front he would stand up in his jeep, highly visible, driving back from the front he would slouch down in his trenchcoat.

In actual contact with the enemy his restless urge and hyperactivity does remind me of some of the great generals - constantly looking for a way round obstacles, constantly pushing his troops to stay in contact with the enemy and not allow them to slip away. In the jargon "inside the OODA loop of the enemy" - keep them off balance, guessing. In some of the border battles in September-October 1944 on the frontiers of Germany, that led to a pointless obsession with seizing heavily defended objectives (Metz in particular). Generally, however it worked.

It's also true that most of the disastrous generals in history were egomaniacs and that led them to ignore critical information and feedback.
Last edited by Valuethinker on Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by Valuethinker » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:25 am

One Ping wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:22 pm
bob60014 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:06 pm
One of the greatest deceptions ever. Patton, like MacArthur in the Pacific, were so in love with themselves, but they got results, always keeping the axis commands worried. Had Patton been a man of more humility and less of a leader, the deception never would have worked.

And thanks to all that served!
And kudos to "Ike" for figuring out how to use that massive ego to the benefit of all. :beer
MacArthur authored so many military or strategic disasters that I am not sure one can call him a great general.

In particular the defence of the Philippines -- the move to the Bataan Peninsula was delayed and the opportunity to relocate large amounts of supplies there was lost (in contrast to the pre war agreed strategy; MacArthur wavered between an active (doomed) defence of Luzon and eventually reverted to the original strategy) - so the defenders starved.

And again the decision to invade the Philippines became a giant sink of American effort, men and valuable shipping. When in fact the Central Pacific campaign was the thrust that took American forces into the heart of the Japanese empire, cutting its supply lines and bringing the Home Islands within range of long range bombers (B29s).

(there is a caveat to that. Had the Central Pacific campaign been the only drive on Japan, it might have been diverted to attack Taiwan as was argued for - that would have been a huge waste of men & resources. Also US strategy was to stage all amphibious invasions within range of land-based aircraft (the island battles in the Marianas and Gilberts might be an exception)-- that "hopping" strategy necessitated airbases in northern Luzon. In actual fact, those airfields came into service only quite late in the game, I am not sure how valuable they were in terms of the attack on Okinawa.

Even the landing at Inchon in Korea, behind enemy lines, has been criticized for the risk it took - apparently it was a much higher risk than was acknowledged at the time. Granted, it worked - great generalship requires great risk, sometimes, and perhaps a deeper understanding of the enemy's blindspots. However MacArthur then ignored intelligence and reports from the front line and dangerously overextended his forces in the mountains of North Korea, ignoring all evidence that the Chinese were entering the war and moving huge armies across the Yalu River. The UN forces walked into a trap.

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by Valuethinker » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:59 am

mancich wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:05 am
Truly "The Greatest Generation". I watched "Saving Private Ryan" again over Memorial Day weekend, and couldn't help but be struck by awe and gratitude at the thought of all these young men storming that beach, probably scared out of their wits, many losing their lives, to defeat tyranny. Amazing.
I have a friend here in London.

He was in the 101st Airborne 1968-69 Vietnam.

He was not at Hamburger Hill, but some of his fellow comrades were -- the A Shua Valley, the infiltration highway into South Vietnam from the Ho Chi Minh trail - when the Americans ventured there toe-to-toe slugfests were inevitable as it was key to North Vietnamese supply and infiltration lines. They were just as much heroes as the men in the Higg's boats at Omaha Beach. The method of delivery into the combat zone was the helicopter - and when you were in the combat zone you jumped out and did your best. But it was still the same gut wrenching fear & adrenaline, the desperate desire to survive. The attack on a fortified position against a determined enemy. If you have seen the movie "Glory" about the first black regiment in the American Civil War, you see the same thing - it's not new in the history of warfare.

Whether a war is a "good war" or not is not up to the people who will execute it. The United States very nearly pursued an isolationist policy in WW2, which would have left Europe to (presumably) the eventually victorious Stalin, and China to the Japanese. It was only by very skillful manoeuvring that Roosevelt (and Churchill) managed to put the USA into a position where provocation (German attacks on American destroyers; Japan on Pearl Harbor) took place.

There is no "greatest generation" in that sense- there's just people who find themselves in a war. As one officer in Iraq said (paraphrasing) of his men and women "I'd like to see someone call these Millennials "flakes" after they see them roust out at 3AM and go on patrol".

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by Kenkat » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:37 am

Patton’s Third Army also played a key role in the breakout from Normandy, Code Name Operation Cobra, and the subsequent collapse of the German position in France. US and British forces advanced to the German border through 1944 before the German army could re-group and stop the advance. This set the stage for the German counter-offensive in late 1944, the Battle of the Bulge.

Interestingly, Patton’s Third Army along with the US Second Army was commanded overall by Omar Bradley. Bradley had served under Patton in Africa but due to mis-steps by Patton eventually passed his former commander by. He is another of the great WW2 generals who you don’t hear as much about as he did not have the colorful personality that Patton had.

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by BolderBoy » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:16 am

I also thank Taylor for his Battle of the Bulge work.

Two true-story movies folks might be interested in: "I Was Monty's Double" and "The Man Who Never Was". There were many other deceptions underway along with Patton's.
"Never underestimate one's capacity to overestimate one's abilities" - The Dunning-Kruger Effect

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by Doom&Gloom » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:22 am

Valuethinker wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:19 am
bob60014 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:06 pm
One of the greatest deceptions ever. Patton, like MacArthur in the Pacific, were so in love with themselves, but they got results, always keeping the axis commands worried. Had Patton been a man of more humility and less of a leader, the deception never would have worked.

And thanks to all that served!
I agree that someone with such a carefully calculated image as Patton was critical to the deception - inventing a whole army that would (supposedly) invade at the Pas-de-Calais region (opposite Dover) and thus pinning 15 German divisions there, even after D Day.

With the proviso that there is such a thing as a great, humble leader.

Some great leaders are egomaniacs, some are not.

Patton was very attentive to his public image. However he also understood the command value of that - his cultivated warrior persona (pearl handed pistols, etc.), driving to the front he would stand up in his jeep, highly visible, driving back from the front he would slouch down in his trenchcoat.

In actual contact with the enemy his restless urge and hyperactivity does remind me of some of the great generals - constantly looking for a way round obstacles, constantly pushing his troops to stay in contact with the enemy and not allow them to slip away. In the jargon "inside the OODA loop of the enemy" - keep them off balance, guessing. In some of the border battles in September-October 1944 on the frontiers of Germany, that led to a pointless obsession with seizing heavily defended objectives (Metz in particular). Generally, however it worked.

It's also true that most of the disastrous generals in history were egomaniacs and that led them to ignore critical information and feedback.
oops :oops:

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/106862 ... se-carries

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by ER2023 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:02 am

mancich wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:05 am
Truly "The Greatest Generation". I watched "Saving Private Ryan" again over Memorial Day weekend, and couldn't help but be struck by awe and gratitude at the thought of all these young men storming that beach, probably scared out of their wits, many losing their lives, to defeat tyranny. Amazing.
+1

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by sherwink » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:49 am

In March 1863 the Confederate Officer John S. Mosby, aka, The Grey Ghost, led a raid behind Union lines. Mosby captured a Union General. President Abraham Lincoln was in the US Army telegraph office the night when the reports came in from the results of that raid. When the decoded Union Army message came in. The telegrapher said to Lincoln: “You’ve lost a General and fifty-eight horses.” Lincoln replied: “I can make a general in five minutes—but a good horse is hard to replace.”
John Mosby later went on to serve in the US Government. He became good friends with George Patton’s father. He’d spent some time in the Patton’s Southern California home and would play with George Patton Jr. Those interactions and lessons were not lost on the younger Patton.

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by thefirst100k » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:16 pm

This seems out of place on an investment forum.

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by jerryk68 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:51 pm

To say this was the greatest generation is an understatement. My father served under Patton in the 6th Armored Division, 50th Infantry Battalion starting at Utah beach in mid July 44 to the end of the war being the recipient of four bronze stars and two purple hearts. He would not talk about his military experiences and would just leave the room when someone would ask about his service. He got epilepsy as a result of the war and he paid for his own medication because as he and my mother would say "others need the benefits more than us". Forty years later and five years before he died my brother applied for medical benefits for him and after the VA reviewed his six inch medical file he was declared medically disabled as a result of his war injuries. Like others, he continued to sacrifice way after the end of the war.

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by ADAMNOGGI » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:04 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:59 am
mancich wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:05 am
Truly "The Greatest Generation". I watched "Saving Private Ryan" again over Memorial Day weekend, and couldn't help but be struck by awe and gratitude at the thought of all these young men storming that beach, probably scared out of their wits, many losing their lives, to defeat tyranny. Amazing.
I have a friend here in London.

He was in the 101st Airborne 1968-69 Vietnam.

He was not at Hamburger Hill, but some of his fellow comrades were -- the A Shua Valley, the infiltration highway into South Vietnam from the Ho Chi Minh trail - when the Americans ventured there toe-to-toe slugfests were inevitable as it was key to North Vietnamese supply and infiltration lines. They were just as much heroes as the men in the Higg's boats at Omaha Beach. The method of delivery into the combat zone was the helicopter - and when you were in the combat zone you jumped out and did your best. But it was still the same gut wrenching fear & adrenaline, the desperate desire to survive. The attack on a fortified position against a determined enemy. If you have seen the movie "Glory" about the first black regiment in the American Civil War, you see the same thing - it's not new in the history of warfare.

Whether a war is a "good war" or not is not up to the people who will execute it. The United States very nearly pursued an isolationist policy in WW2, which would have left Europe to (presumably) the eventually victorious Stalin, and China to the Japanese. It was only by very skillful manoeuvring that Roosevelt (and Churchill) managed to put the USA into a position where provocation (German attacks on American destroyers; Japan on Pearl Harbor) took place.

There is no "greatest generation" in that sense- there's just people who find themselves in a war. As one officer in Iraq said (paraphrasing) of his men and women "I'd like to see someone call these Millennials "flakes" after they see them roust out at 3AM and go on patrol".
I take benign issue with a bit of your post.

Reference the "Greatest Generation" . Tom Brokaw, when he coined the tag, included the trials of the Great
Depression undergone by that generation. When kids (and I was one at the time) remember those years as tough, believe it....and they were very tough.The war was a continuation of tough times not the only instance. I don't agree with your summation that only war defined my generation.

You quote an incident of arising for an 0300 patrol as a measure of worth of the millennial generation. That is very weak praise to justify value. From a military viewpoint a patrol is a routine operation for a well trained unit and to be expected at various times. All patrols are routine until it hits the fan and then they aren't. I expect the troops involved will agree with me. My point is using that as an example of worth falls far short of what is justified. I can offer more praise just from association with veterans of that age at my local VFW Post. My point; the officer concerned, in my opinion, fell far short in his attempt at praise. Regardless, they ceased to be millenials when they entered service.

Peace,

=Combat Vet/WWII / Korean War /Cold War/VN Era

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by ER2023 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:45 pm

FootballFan5548 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:10 pm
It's always a special day for me.
My grandfather jumped into Normandy with the 101st AB, 506th PIR, F Company. This was the sister company of the famed Easy Company from Band of Brothers fame. Fox company was side by side with Easy Company every step of the way, without all of the fanfare.

My grandfather was an original Toccoa, GA paratrooper from 1942, made the jump into Normandy, Holland, and the truck ride to Bastogne where he was wounded on Dec. 27th, 1944 and evacuated.

D-Day, the day of days, is always a topic I've taken tremendous interest in.
Band of Brothers is one of our favorite movies. We were fortunate to have our boxed set signed by William Guarnere (aka "Wild Bill Gonorrhea") before he passed away.

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by LadyGeek » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:16 pm

This thread is now in the US Chapters forum (Boglehead community).

My father-in-law, recently deceased, also fought in of the Battle of the Bulge.
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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by LadyGeek » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:17 pm

I removed an off-topic post. As a reminder, this is a "no politics" forum - regardless of historical time period or country.
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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by nedsaid » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:01 pm

This is a good time to reflect upon D-Day, the 75th Anniversary of this event is tomorrow. I had the pleasure of taking a D-Day tour in September 2012. We visited the museum in Caen, saw Pointe du Hoc, Omaha Beach, the US Cemetery above Omaha Beach, and Juno Beach. It was quite the day and I will remember it for the rest of my life.
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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by legio XX » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:30 pm

ADAMNOGGI wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:04 pm

I take benign issue with a bit of your post.

Reference the "Greatest Generation" . Tom Brokaw, when he coined the tag, included the trials of the Great
Depression undergone by that generation. When kids (and I was one at the time) remember those years as tough, believe it....and they were very tough.The war was a continuation of tough times not the only instance. I don't agree with your summation that only war defined my generation. . . .

Peace,

=Combat Vet/WWII / Korean War /Cold War/VN Era
Have to agree with this. When Taylor and Adam were doing their bit my biggest problem was putting one foot in front of the other before landing on my diaper. It took a lot of time (as a kid measures it) to work out why our parents were "people who collected cars and refrigerators." Growing up in the Depression and coming of age in war will make domesticity look good.

I love the odd bits of information I pick up on B'heads. Never thought I'd be copying quotes from Patton for my students!

And this thread isn't at all out of place, not today.

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by Sheepdog » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:10 am

legio XX wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:30 pm
I love the odd bits of information I pick up on B'heads. Never thought I'd be copying quotes from Patton for my students!
Here are some more quotes from General Patton for your students
"Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.""
"You're never beaten until you admit it"
"Always do everything you ask of those you command."
"You need to overcome the tug of people against you as you reach for high goals."
"Take calculated risks. That is quite different from being rash. My personal belief is that if you have a 50% chance, take it."
It's not what you gather, but what you scatter which tells what kind of life you have lived---Helen Walton

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:34 am

thefirst100k wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:16 pm
This seems out of place on an investment forum.
Sometimes it pays to be respectful of notable and significant historical events. This is one of those times. If anything is to be said it is that day in that year was representative of a monumental investment in freedom and mankind. Do you think there would even be an investment forum dedicated to financial instruments if events had turned out differently?
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by ER2023 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:34 am

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:34 am
thefirst100k wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:16 pm
This seems out of place on an investment forum.
Sometimes it pays to be respectful of notable and significant historical events. This is one of those times. If anything is to be said it is that day in that year was representative of a monumental investment in freedom and mankind. Do you think there would even be an investment forum dedicated to financial instruments if events had turned out differently?
Well said.

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by kramer » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:00 am

I was sad today thinking about it. I never got to meet my great uncle "Kramer" who died one month into this campaign and is buried in France. Thank you, sir, for your sacrifice. And thanks to the sacrifice of so many who saved our civilization so that we have our liberty.

We owe it to them to remember their sacrifice and to safeguard our liberty for future generations.

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton

Post by Wricha » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:25 pm

ADAMNOGGI wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:04 pm
Valuethinker wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:59 am
mancich wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:05 am
Truly "The Greatest Generation". I watched "Saving Private Ryan" again over Memorial Day weekend, and couldn't help but be struck by awe and gratitude at the thought of all these young men storming that beach, probably scared out of their wits, many losing their lives, to defeat tyranny. Amazing.
I have a friend here in London.

He was in the 101st Airborne 1968-69 Vietnam.

He was not at Hamburger Hill, but some of his fellow comrades were -- the A Shua Valley, the infiltration highway into South Vietnam from the Ho Chi Minh trail - when the Americans ventured there toe-to-toe slugfests were inevitable as it was key to North Vietnamese supply and infiltration lines. They were just as much heroes as the men in the Higg's boats at Omaha Beach. The method of delivery into the combat zone was the helicopter - and when you were in the combat zone you jumped out and did your best. But it was still the same gut wrenching fear & adrenaline, the desperate desire to survive. The attack on a fortified position against a determined enemy. If you have seen the movie "Glory" about the first black regiment in the American Civil War, you see the same thing - it's not new in the history of warfare.

Whether a war is a "good war" or not is not up to the people who will execute it. The United States very nearly pursued an isolationist policy in WW2, which would have left Europe to (presumably) the eventually victorious Stalin, and China to the Japanese. It was only by very skillful manoeuvring that Roosevelt (and Churchill) managed to put the USA into a position where provocation (German attacks on American destroyers; Japan on Pearl Harbor) took place.

There is no "greatest generation" in that sense- there's just people who find themselves in a war. As one officer in Iraq said (paraphrasing) of his men and women "I'd like to see someone call these Millennials "flakes" after they see them roust out at 3AM and go on patrol".
I take benign issue with a bit of your post.

Reference the "Greatest Generation" . Tom Brokaw, when he coined the tag, included the trials of the Great
Depression undergone by that generation. When kids (and I was one at the time) remember those years as tough, believe it....and they were very tough.The war was a continuation of tough times not the only instance. I don't agree with your summation that only war defined my generation.

You quote an incident of arising for an 0300 patrol as a measure of worth of the millennial generation. That is very weak praise to justify value. From a military viewpoint a patrol is a routine operation for a well trained unit and to be expected at various times. All patrols are routine until it hits the fan and then they aren't. I expect the troops involved will agree with me. My point is using that as an example of worth falls far short of what is justified. I can offer more praise just from association with veterans of that age at my local VFW Post. My point; the officer concerned, in my opinion, fell far short in his attempt at praise. Regardless, they ceased to be millenials when they entered service.

Peace,

=Combat Vet/WWII / Korean War /Cold War/VN Era
Thank you. Well stated

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D-Day plus 11 days, a war article written by Ernie Pyle

Post by Sheepdog » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:53 am

[Thread merged into here, see below. --admin LadyGeek]

Just a few days ago several wrote here about the Normandy invasion on June 6, 1944.
Some of you may know who Ernie Pyle was, but some may not. I know that Taylor Larimore knows who he was, as are many of us who were safely at home at that time.
Ernie Pyle was an often embedded war correspondent during World War II. He reported mostly about the marines, soldiers and sailors in the field, writing their stories which was printed in the U.S. newspapers. He was loved by the everyday enlisted men, officers and public. He was killed by a Japanese sniper while with Marines in the field on the island of le Shima, close to Japan on April 18, 1945.

Ernie Pyle was a native of Dana, Indiana, which is near my home. There is a museum in his birthplace home. He was honored by naming the Indiana School of Journalism after him
------
I was given this New York World-Telegram article which was printed later on April 6, 1945, (less than 2 weeks before his death), but was written by Mr. Pyle on June 17, 1944. Why printed then so much later, I don’t know. ---- I am copy-typing it for you to read today on June 16, 2019. I hope you will appreciate why I am doing this. If you don’t, that is okay, but still appreciate those men who fought and died there.
------
NORMANDY TIDES by Ernie Pyle
NORMANDY BEACHHEAD, June 17, 1944 (By wireless)- In the preceding column we told about the D-Day wreckage among our machines of war that were expended in taking one of the Normandy beaches.
But there is another and more human litter. It extends in a thin little line, just like a high water mark, for miles along the beach. This is the strewn personal gear, gear that will never be needed again, of those who fought and died to give us our entrance into Europe.
Here in a jumbled row for mile on mile are soldiers packs. Here are socks and shoe polish, sewing kits, diaries, Bibles and hand grenades. Here are the latest letters from home, with the address on each one neatly razored out--one of the security precautions enforced before the boys embarked.
Here are toothbrushes and razors, and snapshots of families back home staring up at you from the sand. Here are pocketbooks, metal mirrors, extra trousers, and bloody abandoned shoes. Here are broken-handled shovels, and portable radios smashed almost beyond recognition and mine detectors twisted and ruined.


[Content in excess of copyright fair-use removed by admin LadyGeek. Here's the link: A Long Thin Line of Personal Anguish ]
It's not what you gather, but what you scatter which tells what kind of life you have lived---Helen Walton

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Re: D-Day plus 11 days, a war article written by Ernie Pyle

Post by kobbiemandd » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:06 am

Very powerful, thanks so much for posting this!

Tom

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Re: D-Day plus 11 days, a war article written by Ernie Pyle

Post by Summit111 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:18 am

Let us never forget....
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Re: D-Day plus 11 days, a war article written by Ernie Pyle

Post by camden » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:29 am

After reading that, I can see that Pyle deserved his fame. The power of observation and quiet understatement.

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Re: D-Day plus 11 days, a war article written by Ernie Pyle

Post by KSOC » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:49 am

Thank you Sheepdog. I now know who Ernie Pyle was. And he too deserves my gratitude.
Too soon old, too late smart.

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Re: D-Day plus 11 days, a war article written by Ernie Pyle

Post by Pops1860 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:16 am

My father served overseas during WW II from approximately January 1943 till the end of the war in Europe. Was under combat conditions a large amount of the time, going through North Africa, Sicily, Italy, and finally Germany itself at the end. Was in several 'D-Days' (amphibious assaults), one in Sicily, and two more in Italy (including Anzio). My understanding is that the terms 'D-Day' and 'H-Hour' are generic military terms, allowing for detailed planning of the assault to occur without actually specifying the actual day (and hour) of the assault until absolutely necessary.

He, like most of his fellow returning veterans, never talked much about his war experiences, although we do have letters he wrote to my mother, who saved them and they are now part of our family historical records. But one of the few things he mentioned several times was that he liked and respected Ernie and his reporting very much. Because Ernie was there with the troops on the combat lines, and he 'told it the way it was.'

Thank you Sheepdog for posting.
The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who do not have it. ~George Bernard Shaw

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Re: D-Day plus 11 days, a war article written by Ernie Pyle

Post by warner25 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:53 am

Pops1860 wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:16 am
My understanding is that the terms 'D-Day' and 'H-Hour' are generic military terms, allowing for detailed planning of the assault to occur without actually specifying the actual day (and hour) of the assault until absolutely necessary.
Still true today for every military staff, along with an alphabet soup of related defined terms like M-day, C-day, F-hour, etc. So it says a lot that "D-day" continues to be associated so closely with the WWII allied invasion of France, even among contemporary military professionals. It was in a whole different universe from anything that any of us have ever seen.

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Re: D-Day plus 11 days, a war article written by Ernie Pyle

Post by David Althaus » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:59 am

Ernie Pyle was extraordinary indeed. Every Memorial Day I read "The Death of Captain Waskow." It's easily accessible on Google. Keep a tissue nearby--once you are able to breathe again after reading it.

All the best

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton [D-Day plus 11 days, a war article by Ernie Pyle]

Post by LadyGeek » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:25 am

I merged Sheepdog's thread into a similar discussion.
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Re: D-Day plus 11 days, a war article written by Ernie Pyle

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:16 am

warner25 wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:53 am
Pops1860 wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:16 am
My understanding is that the terms 'D-Day' and 'H-Hour' are generic military terms, allowing for detailed planning of the assault to occur without actually specifying the actual day (and hour) of the assault until absolutely necessary.
Still true today for every military staff, along with an alphabet soup of related defined terms like M-day, C-day, F-hour, etc. So it says a lot that "D-day" continues to be associated so closely with the WWII allied invasion of France, even among contemporary military professionals. It was in a whole different universe from anything that any of us have ever seen.
Yes although what the USA achieved 1965-1971 in Vietnam should not be underestimated.

The US had 575,000 personnel in country at the peak, from memory. Those units had a much heavier "logistics tail" than a WW2 Armoured Division in terms of vehicles, helicopters, basing. So say 1.5 million forces across the English Channel from an advanced & modern country into other advanced and modern countries (by pre WW2 standards) vs. a Third World country half the planet away with limited staging bases (Guam, Okinawa, Australia) on the way.

And South Vietnam was an underdeveloped country with very limited post colonial infrastructure. With difficult terrain (no, horrible terrain) and an awful climate for this kind of thing (monsoon rains make havoc of roads and base structures).

Part of the solution was the shipping container - the US Navy contracted with the first shipping container company, and got that industry going, which later revolutionized world trade (it was always stuck with the chicken and egg problem that you needed someone to build the ports that could handle the containers).

Whatever his flaws as a strategic general (and they were many), William C Westmoreland was a logistician par excellence. Building the infrastructure for a modern army is one of his little sung accomplishments.

(of course the other side, maintaining 100k+ troops down the Ho Chi Minh trail under heavy air bombardment, and with enough supplies & replacements to keep them fighting to a stalemate the world's most modern and capable military force ... that was a logistics triumph at least as great).

Gulf War 1 was pretty incredible too. Moving (6?) US Army divisions (+2 Marines) configured for a ground war in northern Europe, plus equivalent of 2 Allied divisions, literally to the far side of the world, in a total of less than 4 months - 965,000 soldiers with all their modern equipment and supplies. OK world shipping etc had been revolutionized by that time, but still ...

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Re: D-Day plus 11 days, a war article written by Ernie Pyle

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:49 am

Pops1860 wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:16 am
My father served overseas during WW II from approximately January 1943 till the end of the war in Europe. Was under combat conditions a large amount of the time, going through North Africa, Sicily, Italy, and finally Germany itself at the end. Was in several 'D-Days' (amphibious assaults), one in Sicily, and two more in Italy (including Anzio). My understanding is that the terms 'D-Day' and 'H-Hour' are generic military terms, allowing for detailed planning of the assault to occur without actually specifying the actual day (and hour) of the assault until absolutely necessary.

He, like most of his fellow returning veterans, never talked much about his war experiences, although we do have letters he wrote to my mother, who saved them and they are now part of our family historical records. But one of the few things he mentioned several times was that he liked and respected Ernie and his reporting very much. Because Ernie was there with the troops on the combat lines, and he 'told it the way it was.'

Thank you Sheepdog for posting.
All true re Pyle.

Note however he wrote under strong conditions of military censorship. Somewhere I read that we don't have the pre censored version of his reporting, which is unfortunate?

Allied censorship and propaganda in WW2 were often quite subtle*. But if you ever get to see the film Went the Day Well you see a subversive piece of propaganda. An English village occupied by German paratroopers in disguise comes together and fights back. (Yes, Jack Higgins then nicked the story for The Eagle has Landed - a much inferior movie). The director and screenplay take the tropes of the English village and make something different out of them ...

Casablanca, too. This is a propaganda movie, with a message of personal sacrifice. But my eyes still blur over when I see that scene

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM-E2H1ChJM

Alistair Cooke, in his "Letters from America" BBC broadcast had a really memorable one about first seeing that movie, in a cinema in Philadelphia, and the electric reaction of the audience.

Watch that movie now and wince at the irony about "Concentration Camps" (Victor Lazlo has been released from one) - they don't know what we know.

So the "truth" that was being told was deliberately subtle and subtly slanted.

The correspondents learned to write with the restrictions - censored themselves.

* (not that subtle, if one gets a chance to see some of the outright racist stuff some of the cartoon characters starred in)

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Re: D-Day plus 11 days, a war article written by Ernie Pyle

Post by Fallible » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:55 am

camden wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:29 am
After reading that, I can see that Pyle deserved his fame. The power of observation and quiet understatement.
That describes his style well. As an especially sensitive observer of the horrors of war, he knew what details to bring out; as a talented writer, he knew how to bring them out.
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Re: D-Day plus 11 days, a war article written by Ernie Pyle

Post by warner25 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:35 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:16 am
Yes although what the USA achieved 1965-1971 in Vietnam should not be underestimated... Gulf War 1 was pretty incredible too.
All true, as far as the logistical scale, as you say. I was thinking more of the rate and number of casualties; losses on June 6, 1944, alone were on par with all losses in Iraq and Afghanistan combined over the past two (or three) decades.

I'll also say that not many of us "contemporary" military professionals at this point are old enough to have seen Gulf War 1, let alone Vietnam. General Mark Milley, Army chief and future chairman of the joint chiefs, was only 10 years old during the 1968 Tet Offensive. I'm reminded of how it can be dangerous when older generations pass away and living people forget (or never knew) how ugly war can be.

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Re: June 6, 1944 D Day and General Patton [D-Day plus 11 days, a war article by Ernie Pyle]

Post by 6miths » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:38 pm

Sheepdog wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:14 pm
[Thread updated, see below. --admin LadyGeek]

The 75th anniversary of D Day, 6/6/44, the beginning of the end of the war with Nazi Germany, occurred when the Allies landed on the beaches of Normandy France.. Many thousands died on both sides in the following months.
I feel a great sense of debt to all of those who served in WW2, my FIL was a Royal Marine while my father was too young to serve in the war, but as another poster began, I have a benign issue. To describe D-Day as 'the beginning of the end of the war' does a great disservice to the millions of Soviets who died for the Allied cause. Arguably, 'the beginning of the end of the war' began with Operation Uranus on 18 November 1942 when the Soviet Union began the encirclement of the German 6th Army and the relief of Stalingrad. Ultimately, the Soviets covered 3 times as much distance (and a vastly larger amount of territory) on their march to meet the Western Allied armies in Germany in May of 1945. Soviet dead were over 50-times higher than American in the war - total dead in the Soviet Union is estimated at over 26 million. If it weren't for ideological differences and the Cold War, we would have learned of countless more heroes. I too count 'Band of Brothers' as one of the best and have watched it more than once with my children.
'It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so!' Mark Twain

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