Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

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Topic Author
RobLyons
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:55 pm

Re: Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

Post by RobLyons » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:41 am

KlangFool wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:37 pm
Folks,

Many of my peers are "House Poor". It is too late to save any one of them. So, why bother?

KlangFool

Very true!


People will do what they want to do in the end. Same goes for many aspects of life. Health, careers, attitude, diet and fitness, etc.

Recently my 70 year old aunt/uncle sold their house they lived in for the past 35 years, underwater, and are now essentially homeless. Refused help. Both worked good jobs. Poor life decisions.

I would still offer help to anyone seeking it. But not wasting my time to those resistant to change.


Rob
"Great parenting sets the foundation for a better world"

Grt2bOutdoors
Posts: 21218
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:20 pm
Location: New York

Re: Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:45 am

evofxdwg wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:03 pm

I have one acquaintance who is some kind of salesperson or investment counselor for a major life insurance company. A few years ago when he found out I was a couple years from retirement, he tried several times to recruit me as a customer. I told him multiple times I have a plan and even mentioned Vanguard and that Bogleheads.org was a good information source. He acted like he didn't know who Vanguard was. :oops: I heard recently he was having financial problems and had lost his house. :confused
Let me guess, while he didn’t know that who Vanguard, Jack Bogle, Warren Buffett and index funds were, his clients did. They took their money and left him.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

Topic Author
RobLyons
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:55 pm

Re: Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

Post by RobLyons » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:47 am

aspirit wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:55 pm
Why must you have a follow up conversation, ego? Most others avoid harsh truths like plagues . Good luck!

Not at all ! I'm probably the least egotistical person you would ever meet..

The reason for follow up is I felt like my message was not clear and did not help my coworker. We texted back and forth after and mutually decided a follow up was warranted.

Instead of talking about admiral shares and Roth IRAs, I'll probably point out the great funds offered in our 403b and how the target date fund could be the simplest, best bet.. vs the 1% fee funds.
she has no desire to open a Roth or change much at this point.

Live and learn.
"Great parenting sets the foundation for a better world"

bloom2708
Posts: 6765
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Location: Fargo, ND

Re: Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

Post by bloom2708 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:52 am

smitcat wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:27 am
Does your companies 401K plan provider do educational meetings, do they provide printed materials, do they have an answer period and/or hotline?
Yes. They have all that stuff. Do you think your 401k plan provider will tell you to avoid the 1.7% expense ratio fund? Or how much the fees will add up comparing the .02% fund with the 1.7% fund? Our company does provide a 401k spreadsheet that shows you how to maximize your match, Age 50+ catch up contributions and how to do the Mega Back Door Roth which is offered. That is probably going above and beyond.

I wasn't trying to be the 401k plan administrator. Just gave some tips. Know the expense ratios. Know the impact of fees. At work and outside of work. High level seeds that might grow or might burn up in the sun. :(
“People don’t want advice, they want confirmation.” Unknown

pennywise
Posts: 670
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Re: Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

Post by pennywise » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:59 am

stimulacra wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:12 pm

For whatever it is worth, bogleheads as a forum or message board, has very low traction with the women I've met who are interested in learning more about investing and retirement. They view it as a boy's club of sorts, after checking it out. Reddit seems a bit more accessible to them, Youtube and specific books even more so.
Well since you brought it up, anecdotally the BH forum does seem to have a large cohort of analytically minded men who delve into finance, especially the quantitative minutiae, at a level that is utterly eye-glazing to me. I sometimes will see a topic that has 'exploded' and often, if it isn't about someone's personal issue, it is because the hive mind seems to have latched on to some really, really technical issue or detail and run with it. Let's see, social security claiming strategies and mortgage payoff-or-not discussions come to mind, but there are others. Man, the way you guys can get heated over this stuff is rather like watching a shark feeding frenzy but with numbers as the chum :P

However as a source of information and knowledge, I've never found any site that compares with the Bogleheads forum overall in terms of useful, actionable and downright fascinating discussion about finances!
Last edited by pennywise on Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KlangFool
Posts: 13700
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

Post by KlangFool » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:31 am

RobLyons wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:41 am
KlangFool wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:37 pm
Folks,

Many of my peers are "House Poor". It is too late to save any one of them. So, why bother?

KlangFool

Very true!


People will do what they want to do in the end. Same goes for many aspects of life. Health, careers, attitude, diet and fitness, etc.

Recently my 70 year old aunt/uncle sold their house they lived in for the past 35 years, underwater, and are now essentially homeless. Refused help. Both worked good jobs. Poor life decisions.

I would still offer help to anyone seeking it. But not wasting my time to those resistant to change.


Rob
RobLyons,

I answer the question on Boglehead forum because folks come here for an answer. They are motivated. Even in this case, I will answer and help as much as the person is willing to listen and read.

In most cases, it is a thankless job. We have absolutely nothing to gain. In fact, the reverse is true. More "House Poor" folks are better for the economy. It is just bad for that individual. Ditto to teaching folks on how to save taxes.

KlangFool

smitcat
Posts: 4036
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

Post by smitcat » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:39 am

bloom2708 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:52 am
smitcat wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:27 am
Does your companies 401K plan provider do educational meetings, do they provide printed materials, do they have an answer period and/or hotline?
Yes. They have all that stuff. Do you think your 401k plan provider will tell you to avoid the 1.7% expense ratio fund? Or how much the fees will add up comparing the .02% fund with the 1.7% fund? Our company does provide a 401k spreadsheet that shows you how to maximize your match, Age 50+ catch up contributions and how to do the Mega Back Door Roth which is offered. That is probably going above and beyond.

I wasn't trying to be the 401k plan administrator. Just gave some tips. Know the expense ratios. Know the impact of fees. At work and outside of work. High level seeds that might grow or might burn up in the sun. :(
I am just some guy om the internet and that is fine.
I would suggest you speak to your 401K administrator next time they are in and see their face and what they say when you descried this to them:
- you work in accounting/finance
- you had a meeting at work about investing
- you supplied both written and verbal directions on investment choices
- these suggestions included teh companies 401K choices
- you also handicapped the companies 401K choices by desirability

"Do you think your 401k plan provider will tell you to avoid the 1.7% expense ratio fund?"
No - because they know that their job is to inform the employees about all of the options and provide a variety of options to all of them, edcuating them the best that they can. Doing otherwise will put them in a legal quandry when someones 'fund' underperforms and even more so when employees get seperated from the company due to performance or a layoff. To get greater detail on why you really do not want to do this at work please consult your own 401K plan administrator.

bloom2708
Posts: 6765
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:08 pm
Location: Fargo, ND

Re: Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

Post by bloom2708 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:03 am

smitcat wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:39 am
bloom2708 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:52 am
smitcat wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:27 am
Does your companies 401K plan provider do educational meetings, do they provide printed materials, do they have an answer period and/or hotline?
Yes. They have all that stuff. Do you think your 401k plan provider will tell you to avoid the 1.7% expense ratio fund? Or how much the fees will add up comparing the .02% fund with the 1.7% fund? Our company does provide a 401k spreadsheet that shows you how to maximize your match, Age 50+ catch up contributions and how to do the Mega Back Door Roth which is offered. That is probably going above and beyond.

I wasn't trying to be the 401k plan administrator. Just gave some tips. Know the expense ratios. Know the impact of fees. At work and outside of work. High level seeds that might grow or might burn up in the sun. :(
I am just some guy om the internet and that is fine.
I would suggest you speak to your 401K administrator next time they are in and see their face and what they say when you descried this to them:
- you work in accounting/finance
- you had a meeting at work about investing
- you supplied both written and verbal directions on investment choices
- these suggestions included teh companies 401K choices
- you also handicapped the companies 401K choices by desirability

"Do you think your 401k plan provider will tell you to avoid the 1.7% expense ratio fund?"
No - because they know that their job is to inform the employees about all of the options and provide a variety of options to all of them, edcuating them the best that they can. Doing otherwise will put them in a legal quandry when someones 'fund' underperforms and even more so when employees get seperated from the company due to performance or a layoff. To get greater detail on why you really do not want to do this at work please consult your own 401K plan administrator.
Points noted. I think I just lost the internet. I will turn myself in. :(
“People don’t want advice, they want confirmation.” Unknown

Dottie57
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Location: Earth Northern Hemisphere

Re: Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

Post by Dottie57 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:26 am

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:40 am
Dottie57 wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:31 pm
Many of my friends have pensions. They contributed 10% of paycheck to the pension. Only one has contributed to another fund. I don’t talk amounts since one mentioned 1m as a “god awful amount” to have in retirement.

I have a local Boglehead group where discussions can be had.
Ask them if they think $40,000 is a god awful amount to live on in retirement. It’s like the analogy of “Today the Dow Jones Industrial Average went down 200 points - people get nervous at news like that (my retirement fund is going up in smoke) but if you told them it went down 0.001%, they’d be fine with that.”
I did tell people about SWR and told them the formula to determine how much is needed to produce their target income.

Amount of income / .04 = invested amount

I generally got a vacant stare. :shock:

WildBill
Posts: 498
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Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

Post by WildBill » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:33 am

pennywise wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:59 am
stimulacra wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:12 pm

For whatever it is worth, bogleheads as a forum or message board, has very low traction with the women I've met who are interested in learning more about investing and retirement. They view it as a boy's club of sorts, after checking it out. Reddit seems a bit more accessible to them, Youtube and specific books even more so.
Well since you brought it up, anecdotally the BH forum does seem to have a large cohort of analytically minded men who delve into finance, especially the quantitative minutiae, at a level that is utterly eye-glazing to me. I sometimes will see a topic that has 'exploded' and often, if it isn't about someone's personal issue, it is because the hive mind seems to have latched on to some really, really technical issue or detail and run with it. Let's see, social security claiming strategies and mortgage payoff-or-not discussions come to mind, but there are others. Man, the way you guys can get heated over this stuff is rather like watching like a shark feeding frenzy but with numbers as the chum :P

However as a source of information and knowledge, I've never found any site that compares with the Bogleheads forum overall in terms of useful, actionable and downright fascinating discussion about finances!
Howdy

I laughed at this as it is absolutely true, but as you state it is also the reason I come here.

A bunch of intelligent, opinionated, detail obsessed monomaniacs will get to the bottom of the barrel and expose all the issues. It does get tedious sometimes. 8-)

My experience is that the main issues and questions get covered pretty quickly, and the following detailed arguments are usually irrelevant.

Happy hair splitting

W B
"Through chances various, through all vicissitudes, we make our way." Virgil, The Aeneid

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El Greco
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Re: Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

Post by El Greco » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:57 pm

I don't bother anymore. People with no money just look at you blankly. Those with a couple of nickels to rub together usually have a "guy" they invest with and no clue-or desire to know–that they are being ripped off. The only person I discuss with and educate about BH philosophy is my wife who constantly needs reassurance that we are "doing the right thing".

pennywise
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Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 6:22 am

Re: Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

Post by pennywise » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:47 pm

Stinky wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:48 am
I’ve discussed Boglehead philosophy with my adult children, and gave each of them a “Boglehead Guide to Investing” book.
Same, I actually shared my gift book from the Boglehead conference with my daughter. She's a teacher who was delighted to see that she amassed $10,000 in her first 401K plan in only 3 years--she had asked me to sit with her and discuss her investing options, then paid attention about index funds and low expense ratios. I believe seeing the power of compounding and matching in action made her a believer. She is quite frugal and one of the most exciting aspects of her upcoming cohabitation with a serious boyfriend seems to be how much it will save her in monthly expenses. That's my girl.

My son works for the federal government, is married to a high earning partner and they are a formidable financial team. He squirrels away the absolute max in his retirement options, she handles the household operating expenses and together they are now, as his accountant just told him 'on the poor end of rich'. Not bad for a couple of 30 year olds! He also has a fun fund for stock picking and he refers to it as his gambling money LOL. He just enjoys the game and doesn't risk much.

He and I have lunch together every few weeks and truly enjoy getting granular about strategies and plans related to finances. My husband, daughter and DIL may be BH by nature but they are not that interested in details so I'm lucky to have him around.

As for talking to others about Bogleheads philosophy or financial strategies, no I do not. Most people seem to operate with a very different financial world view and my experience has been that they not only don't really care or understand but that they are somewhat resentfully surprised if I mention any of my BH markers like paid off houses, financial independence etc.

It really is odd though because being a Boglehead is one of the few areas in life in which a natural inclination toward inertia and procrastination can work so beautifully. Check off the boxes on your 401K options list at the start of your first job, leave it alone/keep investing wherever you go and after 40 years you will be pleasantly surprised to have a potload of money....not sure why so few people take that path!

Actually I guess we should have a secret handshake and password: you flash 3 cents to represent the typical Vanguard expense ratio and murmur 'Jack says stay the course' so you know who's a coven member :wink:

Stick5vw
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Re: Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

Post by Stick5vw » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:03 pm

Do not really ever mention BH per se. However definitely have talked to many friends about minimalist living/LBYM etc, and our efforts to save as much $ as possible.

Many work in same industry as me (finance) so we know that tough times can and do arrive someday for almost everyone! So my wife and I have adopted this approach because we know we have to “make hay while the sun shines”.

That being said I am sure many of these same friends are spending most of what they make on bigger apartments, cars etc so I wonder how much they really take on board.

Nova1967
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Re: Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

Post by Nova1967 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:14 am

I recently retired from the Federal Government, When asked for Financial advice I advised to max out on the TSP funds with an appropriate allocation which is BH advise relating to index investing. I mentioned the BH site to a few people but all I got were raised eye brows

ColoradoRick
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Re: Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

Post by ColoradoRick » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:33 am

livesoft wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:41 am
Of course, I discuss BH philosophy with others. I also discuss politics which is even more fun. Religion is OK, too. All these make life interesting.

I don't force anything on anybody, but if they want to ask questions and learn more, they know that help friendly discussion is available. And guess what? Many come back and ask more questions.

There is no doubt that I have changed the ways some people invest that I see face-to-face.

Does that mean I grab everyone on the street and start talking finances, politics, and religion with them? Of course not.
+1!

TSR
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Re: Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

Post by TSR » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:46 am

I have had this discussion many times, but it's never the first discussion I have about money with someone. Usually it'll start with some innocuous conversation about something financial, after which I'll say something like, "I don't want to talk your ear off because this is one of my favorite topics of conversation, but if you ever want to talk more about this stuff I love to yammer on about it." I might drop something in there about "I think the financial industry benefits when people think it's rude to talk about money stuff, so I try to be as open as possible about it." You'd be surprised how many people come back. These talks rarely involve much more than discussing the importance of emergency funds, maxing out (or just increasing) tax-advantaged savings, etc., but often times people will want me to tell them what to invest in in their 401ks. They are ALWAYS relieved to hear that the simple options are usually the best.

nick evets
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Re: Do you discuss BH philosophy with others?

Post by nick evets » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:16 am

I'm still curious -- all conversations seem aimed at people who are either completely ignorant of the basics of savings, retirement accounts, and so forth, or in the clutches of rapacious financial advisors.

What about the very rich, and maybe extremely rich people you know? How does he or she respond to the 'boglehead philosophy' especially in situations where the person actively trades, is involved in private equity..."stuff" with partners, etc., etc.? *Or*, I mentioned earlier, maybe he or she has made millions upon millions working with an advisor or firm.

I will venture to say, they're not interested in a 3-fund portfolio, and an interesting argument could be made for the opposite: maybe I should listen to THEM.

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