A lot of heavy hitters this morning

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an_asker
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by an_asker » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:57 am

celia wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:52 pm
fittan wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:11 am
Love this board but can't help to feel disconnected this morning when the first 3 posts are something like:

1) I will be making $350K, should I save for my kid's 529?

2) Should I buy a $1.2 million condo? My inlaws just gave me $235K.

3) I got a $600K windfall...should I pay off mortgage?

Feeling a bit disconnected y'all...just saying :?
Yeah, sometime I see things like this too, then realize it is just the moment of time when I entered the forum. The topics keep re-arranging themselves as the day goes on with the threads with recently added posts at the top. But if you enter an hour earlier or later, you will see completely different posts. So I just scroll down and find something of interest, then, after I post, I see the whole list has been re-shuffled!
To be honest, that's exactly what I do as well; it just so happened that the subject line of this thread intrigued me.

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jharkin
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by jharkin » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:14 pm

jadd806 wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:58 am


Also outside Boston. I'm making a good living, although nothing impressive by the standards of this forum. I make 2-3X as much as most of my friends my age, which really helps to put into perspective how fortunate I am.

The keeping up with the Jones' out here is insane though. I honestly don't understand how people are able to acquire enough debt to accomplish it. The median home price in most towns in the Greater Boston Area is ~5X the median income. Half a mil for a home seems to be the norm within the commuting belt. Then you have the two cars in the driveway on top of that - a $50k SUV and a low-end Audi or BMW. When I first moved here I thought those families must be making like $300k. Then you find out that they're making half that or less. It's mind boggling.

We do genuinely struggle with things like feeling that we can't afford a house in this area, so I can't help but laugh when I open a "Can I Afford This House" on Bogleheads and it's someone who makes $400k asking if they can afford a house worth 1.5X their income.

Tell me about it. I'm probably really similar. I work in tech but I'm not a developer and Ive been at one company forever so I haven't cracked into the 200K+ realm you hear bout from google etc... I look around and all my colleagues live in these giant houses. And all the other parents in my kids sports teams etc.... Funny thing is you look at some of these families, often one income, wife is a stay at home mom. Lookup the house on Zillow and its valued 600, 750, 800... lookup the Dad on linkedIn and I can see his employer pays... maybe in the mid 100s at best.

Hmmm..... Like we keep saying, outside of this forum so much of this ostentatious living is really just a house of cards...

jehovasfitness
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by jehovasfitness » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:49 pm

davidsorensen32 wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:17 pm
Don’t feel demoralized. Look at it this way - if husband and wife work for even just 20 years and just save normally, they would save

Husband 401(k) = 18,500
Husband match = 6,000
Wife 401(k) = 18,500
Wife match = 6,000
2x Backdoor Roth = 11,000
529 = 6,000 (say only $500 per month)
HSA = 6,900

Total = $73,000

Save for 20 years = $1.4M without any appreciation. As you can see it’s very doable. Throw in some market appreciation and you should easily cross $2.5-$3M. Not exactly bill gates style rich but enough for FI in 20 years for most of us.
the fact you think this is "normal" saving shows how out of touch you may be with the avg US worker. I don't mean that to be harsh.

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JamalJones
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by JamalJones » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:16 pm


Age: 41
2017 Salary: 78k in a HCOL city
Peak Salary: ~81k in 2007
Total Net worth: ~425k.

You don't need to have a huge income to be a Boglehead (though it certainly doesn't hurt).
Wow! That's fairly impressive! Congrats on living below your means and saving your money!
TSP + Vanguard Roth IRA + Vanguard Taxable: 80% equities / 20% bonds | Yap, yap, yap, yap, - the bottom line is ya gotta buckle up the chin strap!

Mudpuppy
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by Mudpuppy » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:34 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:30 am
Hey doc, don't tell more people that they can get a decent university education here in Utah for 1/4 the price they are paying in California. Living within 10 miles of two such universities, my area is already getting too congested. I can't tell you how many young people I know around here who are doing exactly what Mudpuppy says is impossible.
Where did I say it was impossible? I said it is harder for today's youth than it was for their parents and grandparents. That means a higher percentage of good people will fail due to no fault of their own, but it doesn't mean it's impossible. It's just HARDER to be successful and many good people will not succeed for reasons other than the ridiculous "avocado toast" theory that was floated last year.

And I don't think this is a California thing, as I've seen the minimum wage calculation (how many years of full-time minimum wage would be needed to pay for one year of tuition and dorm fees) for other universities and it isn't pretty there either. Sure, there will always be outliers where everything is fine. But outliers do not a trend make.

Edit: I should add that I'm both a biologist and computer scientist by training, so population trends and population outliers are important to keep in mind. We can all come up with examples of success stories, but do those reflect the trends of the general population or are they outliers? If you present an outlier as a trend, you're not being honest with yourself or with others.

sport
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by sport » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:29 pm

Mudpuppy wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:34 pm
I said it is harder for today's youth than it was for their parents and grandparents.
Many people don't realize how true this is. When I went to college in the 1960's, the cost was about $1000 per year. For that money, I had a choice of going to a very good private university while commuting from home (free room and board) or going to a state school and living in the dorm. I was able to earn that $1000 with summer jobs and part time work during the school year. Most years, the university even provided the part time job. I was an undergraduate research assistant working under a grant from the National Science Foundation. I had a little money saved up before going to college and I did not even need to spend it all. I do not believe this type of situation could exist today.

livesoft
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by livesoft » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:59 pm

sport wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:29 pm
I do not believe this type of situation could exist today.
It does exist today. State flagship tuition is about $10K to $12K a year. So if one lived at home and worked at $10 to $15 an hour (my daughter made $10/hour as a sophomore in high school at her part-time job), then one would need about 1500 hours a year of work to pay for that. I worked more than 20 hours a week during the school year and full-time in the summers. The math can work.
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Easy Rhino
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by Easy Rhino » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:06 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:14 am
On my lunchtime walk yesterday, I found a dime in the parking lot. When I got home, I showed my wife and told her all about it...
Oh boy mister, then let me tell you about the pair of Christmas boxer shorts I got on sale for 40 cents!

bubbadog
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by bubbadog » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:12 pm

My daughter and I just returned from a college campus visit at our "flagship university" (Ohio State). In state full year tuition is $10,591/year. It is around $7,500/year if you attend one of the regional campuses versus main campus in Columbus. Livesoft is right, the math works.

stoptothink
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by stoptothink » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:15 pm

livesoft wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:59 pm
sport wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:29 pm
I do not believe this type of situation could exist today.
It does exist today. State flagship tuition is about $10K to $12K a year. So if one lived at home and worked at $10 to $15 an hour (my daughter made $10/hour as a sophomore in high school at her part-time job), then one would need about 1500 hours a year of work to pay for that. I worked more than 20 hours a week during the school year and full-time in the summers. The math can work.
Tuition at the two universities within 10 miles of my home is <$7k/yr, I know dozen and dozens and dozens of people who have worked menial jobs and graduated in-time and debt-free. And many of these individuals take that <$7k/yr undergrad degree to Ivys, Stanford, Wharton (just ask me how many awesome employees I have lost to those grad/medical schools). Or, they could go to the private university 20 miles up the road, which is ranked lower in almost every program, and pay nearly 5x as much. It amazes me how costs suddenly don't matter when the discussion comes to college education. It's a lot of money, could be a totally life-changing amount of money: educate yourself and explore your options.

For heaven's sake, read this thread viewtopic.php?t=245549. Why isn't every single response: "I guess brother is going to have to go to a cheaper in-state school?"
Last edited by stoptothink on Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sschullo
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by sschullo » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:16 pm

friar1610 wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:15 pm
I'm an old retired guy who long ago stopped worrying about how much income I have relative to others. But I will say that I'm often amazed by some of the incomes relatively young people (say, in their 30s and 40s) are earning these days if BH posts are to be believed (and I gave no reason to disbelieve them). I'm sure a lot of them are doctors, lawyers, highly skilled techies, business owners, etc. and that many work incredibly long hours for those incomes, but it still blows my mind. I have all I need and virtually all of what I want, so I wouldn't want to trade places with these folks. But the incomes amaze me.
I agree. I got a lot of pushback from young professionals when I wrote a review of the book A Simple Path to Wealth. The author recommended that you contribute 50% of your income! I said "WHAT!" I wrote, and criticized him for being too discouraging. It would have discouraged me when I started. NO WAY! I reasoned that I never even maxed out with my wages in my long career. Here is the discussion and it ended up with a lot talented young folks who do make a lot of money and can save 50 or more percent. Wow! I have never been around high earners, almost all of my retired friends don't have nearly as much as I do.
Public School K-12 Educators: "Ask NOT what your annuity sales person can do for you, ask what you can do to be a Do-It-Yourselfer (DIY)."

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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by Mudpuppy » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:00 pm

bubbadog wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:12 pm
My daughter and I just returned from a college campus visit at our "flagship university" (Ohio State). In state full year tuition is $10,591/year. It is around $7,500/year if you attend one of the regional campuses versus main campus in Columbus. Livesoft is right, the math works.
Ohio's minimum wage is $8.30 per hour. A person working a full-time minimum wage job with no weeks off would make a bit over $17k gross for the entire year (8.3 x 40 x 52). Subtract off 7.65% for FICA and they would make slightly under $16k per year before taxes. This is the 12% federal tax bracket and the 2% Ohio state tax bracket, so our theoretical student would have approximately $1.9k withheld for taxes, leaving about $14k left over in take-home pay for the year.

After paying tuition, that would leave our theoretical full-time, minimum wage Ohio State student with about $3.5k per year for books, housing, food, transportation, and other incidentals. Now, if they can live at home, that cuts down on the housing and food bills, so our theoretical student might end up even financially speaking. However, if our theoretical student can't live at home, the numbers do not work out for minimum-wage work.

And that's not even getting into the damage that working full-time does to our theoretical student's ability to study sufficiently so our theoretical student can carry a full course load and do well in those courses. A STEM student carrying a full 15 units per term is expected to spend 15-25 hours per week in class (depending on how many of those units are lab units, each lab unit is typically 2-3 hours of class time). There is also an expectation that a STEM student spend another 2-3 hours per unit per week outside of class reading, studying, writing lab reports, and so on. That adds up to 30-45 hours per week outside of class for proper study time.

So now our theoretical Ohio State student who is working a full-time minimum wage job while carrying a full 15 units load is expected to spend 45-70 hours per week on school and 40 hours per week at the minimum wage job. That leaves only 58-83 hours per week to sleep, eat, get to and from work/campus, decompress, and so on. Can it be done? Yes, but it's not a healthy path (sleep tends to be the neglected component in the weekly time schedule) and it's far more work than someone of my generation had to do in order to go to college, much less my parents generation.

livesoft
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by livesoft » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:22 pm

Mudpuppy wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:00 pm
Can it be done? Yes, but it's not a healthy path (sleep tends to be the neglected component in the weekly time schedule) and it's far more work than someone of my generation had to do in order to go to college, much less my parents generation.
I did something like that to go to college, but minimum wage was $1.80 an hour back then and that's all I got for my summer job. I am pretty sure I have explained all this before. Can anybody else do what I had to do? Apparently not.
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dwickenh
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by dwickenh » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:30 pm

livesoft wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:22 pm
Mudpuppy wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:00 pm
Can it be done? Yes, but it's not a healthy path (sleep tends to be the neglected component in the weekly time schedule) and it's far more work than someone of my generation had to do in order to go to college, much less my parents generation.
I did something like that to go to college, but minimum wage was $1.80 an hour back then and that's all I got for my summer job. I am pretty sure I have explained all this before. Can anybody else do what I had to do? Apparently not.
I doubt you were alone..... and congrats for working hard to achieve FI at a young age.
The market is the most efficient mechanism anywhere in the world for transferring wealth from impatient people to patient people.” | — Warren Buffett

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Sandtrap
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by Sandtrap » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:34 pm

livesoft wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:22 pm
Mudpuppy wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:00 pm
Can it be done? Yes, but it's not a healthy path (sleep tends to be the neglected component in the weekly time schedule) and it's far more work than someone of my generation had to do in order to go to college, much less my parents generation.
I did something like that to go to college, but minimum wage was $1.80 an hour back then and that's all I got for my summer job. I am pretty sure I have explained all this before. Can anybody else do what I had to do? Apparently not.
+1
$ 1.25/hr. :shock:

j

bubbadog
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by bubbadog » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:53 pm

Mudpuppy wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:00 pm
bubbadog wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:12 pm
My daughter and I just returned from a college campus visit at our "flagship university" (Ohio State). In state full year tuition is $10,591/year. It is around $7,500/year if you attend one of the regional campuses versus main campus in Columbus. Livesoft is right, the math works.
Ohio's minimum wage is $8.30 per hour. A person working a full-time minimum wage job with no weeks off would make a bit over $17k gross for the entire year (8.3 x 40 x 52). Subtract off 7.65% for FICA and they would make slightly under $16k per year before taxes. This is the 12% federal tax bracket and the 2% Ohio state tax bracket, so our theoretical student would have approximately $1.9k withheld for taxes, leaving about $14k left over in take-home pay for the year.

After paying tuition, that would leave our theoretical full-time, minimum wage Ohio State student with about $3.5k per year for books, housing, food, transportation, and other incidentals. Now, if they can live at home, that cuts down on the housing and food bills, so our theoretical student might end up even financially speaking. However, if our theoretical student can't live at home, the numbers do not work out for minimum-wage work.

And that's not even getting into the damage that working full-time does to our theoretical student's ability to study sufficiently so our theoretical student can carry a full course load and do well in those courses. A STEM student carrying a full 15 units per term is expected to spend 15-25 hours per week in class (depending on how many of those units are lab units, each lab unit is typically 2-3 hours of class time). There is also an expectation that a STEM student spend another 2-3 hours per unit per week outside of class reading, studying, writing lab reports, and so on. That adds up to 30-45 hours per week outside of class for proper study time.

So now our theoretical Ohio State student who is working a full-time minimum wage job while carrying a full 15 units load is expected to spend 45-70 hours per week on school and 40 hours per week at the minimum wage job. That leaves only 58-83 hours per week to sleep, eat, get to and from work/campus, decompress, and so on. Can it be done? Yes, but it's not a healthy path (sleep tends to be the neglected component in the weekly time schedule) and it's far more work than someone of my generation had to do in order to go to college, much less my parents generation.
I was not suggesting the scenario you describe. I was just trying to point out that you can receive a quality education for much less than what is typically suggested. If I was flat broke and wanted to go to college today, I could 1) Go to the regional campus for my prerequisite courses 2) Live at home 3) Work full time in the summer and save as much as I can ($3,000 maybe?). 4) Apply for any and all scholarships/grants available 5) Either borrow the rest or maybe my parents could help some.

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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by Mudpuppy » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:45 pm

livesoft wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:22 pm
Mudpuppy wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:00 pm
Can it be done? Yes, but it's not a healthy path (sleep tends to be the neglected component in the weekly time schedule) and it's far more work than someone of my generation had to do in order to go to college, much less my parents generation.
I did something like that to go to college, but minimum wage was $1.80 an hour back then and that's all I got for my summer job. I am pretty sure I have explained all this before. Can anybody else do what I had to do? Apparently not.
Let's use the BLS inflation calculator under a few scenarios: https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

$1.80/hour in Jan 1960 is the same as $15.23/hour in Jan 2018
$1.80/hour in Jan 1965 is the same as $14.30/hour in Jan 2018
$1.80/hour in Jan 1970 is the same as $11.80/hour in Jan 2018
$1.80/hour in Jan 1975 is the same as $8.56/hour in Jan 2018

So if you went to college before 1975, your $1.80/hour minimum wage had higher purchasing power than Ohio's current minimum wage. Only in 1975 does $1.80/hour become roughly equivalent to the purchasing power of the current Ohio minimum wage.

Also, you've said nothing about your tuition, but let's use our theoretical Ohio student again. I could not find a good history of tuition at Ohio State University, but Ohio University publishes their full tuition history since the Civil War at https://www.ohio.edu/instres/Factbook/tuitroom.html. Since that table only goes until 2016/17, we'll inflation-adjust to August 2016 dollars (the start of the 2016/17 academic year).

In 1960, it cost $150 resident tuition per term ($1220 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 1970, it cost $220 resident tuition per term ($1358 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 1975, it cost $260 resident undergrad tuition per term ($1153 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 1985, it cost $664 resident undergrad tuition per term ($1480 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 1995, it cost $1220 resident undergrad tuition per term ($1921 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 2005, it cost $2616 resident undergrad tuition per term ($3208 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 2016, it cost $5268 non-guarantee resident undergrad tuition per term

So tuition in 2016 was 3.5x the tuition of 1985, 4.5x the tuition of 1975, 3.8x the tuition of 1970, and 4.3x the tuition of 1960 using inflation-adjusted dollars. Let's average that out and just say the tuition is currently 4x higher than the inflation-adjusted tuition of 1985 and earlier. If one went to Ohio University in 1995, it was still a third of the price of current tuition using inflation-adjusted dollars. Even in 2005, tuition was 60% of the current tuition using inflation-adjusted dollars.

So our theoretical Ohio student is looking at a college expense that is about 3x that of his parents' generation (1995) and 4x that of his grandparents' generation (1975 and earlier). Meanwhile, his grandparents $1.80/hour in 1975 would be the about same as Ohio minimum wage now.... but our theoretical student has to work 4x as long as his grandparents to pay the tuition bill.

Is it possible? Sure. But it is HARDER for our current theoretical Ohio student than it is for his parents or grandparents because college costs so much more these days than the inflation-adjusted costs of college in the past. The numbers do not lie on this one. Plug in a sampling of public universities and you'll see the same trend: college costs have vastly outpaced inflation, particularly since the Recession.

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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by bubbadog » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:00 pm

I don't think anyone has suggested it is easier today than for previous generations. But today's math suggests you can still get a quality education without assuming a mountain of college loan debt. Lots of roads to Dublin besides the out of state private liberal arts school that junior fell in love with just because it was 1,000 miles away from his parents. :moneybag :oops:

sport
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by sport » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:01 pm

I started college in 1960. The jobs I could get (and they were hard to get due to the recession) paid $1.25/hr. The same school that I went to for about $1000 per year for tuition is now $47,500.

chuppi
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by chuppi » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:06 pm

fittan wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:11 am
Love this board but can't help to feel disconnected this morning when the first 3 posts are something like:

1) I will be making $350K, should I save for my kid's 529?

2) Should I buy a $1.2 million condo? My inlaws just gave me $235K.

3) I got a $600K windfall...should I pay off mortgage?

Feeling a bit disconnected y'all...just saying :?
I want to avoid worrying about others. Money is not everything and we don't know what others are going through. All of us have to lead our own life the best we can.
I believe it was Taylor Larrymore who posted Desiderata by Max Hermann before. It's a beautiful poem.


DESIDERATA

Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals;
and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself.
Especially, do not feign affection.
Neither be critical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.
With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy.

livesoft
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by livesoft » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:07 am

Mudpuppy wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:45 pm
[...]
$1.80/hour in Jan 1975 is the same as $8.56/hour in Jan 2018

So if you went to college before 1975, your $1.80/hour minimum wage had higher purchasing power than Ohio's current minimum wage. Only in 1975 does $1.80/hour become roughly equivalent to the purchasing power of the current Ohio minimum wage.

Also, you've said nothing about your tuition, but let's use our theoretical Ohio student again. I could not find a good history of tuition at Ohio State University, but Ohio University publishes their full tuition history since the Civil War at https://www.ohio.edu/instres/Factbook/tuitroom.html. Since that table only goes until 2016/17, we'll inflation-adjust to August 2016 dollars (the start of the 2016/17 academic year).

[...]
In 1975, it cost $260 resident undergrad tuition per term ($1153 in Aug 2016 dollars)
[...]

Is it possible? Sure. But it is HARDER for our current theoretical Ohio student than it is for his parents or grandparents because college costs so much more these days than the inflation-adjusted costs of college in the past. The numbers do not lie on this one. Plug in a sampling of public universities and you'll see the same trend: college costs have vastly outpaced inflation, particularly since the Recession.
Thanks for looking up some numbers. They are in agreement with my personal experience which, of course, they should be. I went to college after 1975. One can look up when $1.80 an hour was the minimum wage. As for tuition, I paid for a private elite college tuition, so my tuition was way more than $260 per term and more than the $1153 2016-dollars you mentioned.

Was it hard? Yes, it was hard, but it happened. In my freshman year, I had 2 chemistry labs, a physics lab, and a 20+ hour-a-week job as a custodian. With my heavy course load, I graduated in 3 years to save money. I also used money earned during high school and had a small student loan.

I'm sure there are young adults today that have it hard, too, but many do not.
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jehovasfitness
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by jehovasfitness » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:10 am

Mudpuppy wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:45 pm
livesoft wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:22 pm
Mudpuppy wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:00 pm
Can it be done? Yes, but it's not a healthy path (sleep tends to be the neglected component in the weekly time schedule) and it's far more work than someone of my generation had to do in order to go to college, much less my parents generation.
I did something like that to go to college, but minimum wage was $1.80 an hour back then and that's all I got for my summer job. I am pretty sure I have explained all this before. Can anybody else do what I had to do? Apparently not.
Let's use the BLS inflation calculator under a few scenarios: https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

$1.80/hour in Jan 1960 is the same as $15.23/hour in Jan 2018
$1.80/hour in Jan 1965 is the same as $14.30/hour in Jan 2018
$1.80/hour in Jan 1970 is the same as $11.80/hour in Jan 2018
$1.80/hour in Jan 1975 is the same as $8.56/hour in Jan 2018

So if you went to college before 1975, your $1.80/hour minimum wage had higher purchasing power than Ohio's current minimum wage. Only in 1975 does $1.80/hour become roughly equivalent to the purchasing power of the current Ohio minimum wage.

Also, you've said nothing about your tuition, but let's use our theoretical Ohio student again. I could not find a good history of tuition at Ohio State University, but Ohio University publishes their full tuition history since the Civil War at https://www.ohio.edu/instres/Factbook/tuitroom.html. Since that table only goes until 2016/17, we'll inflation-adjust to August 2016 dollars (the start of the 2016/17 academic year).

In 1960, it cost $150 resident tuition per term ($1220 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 1970, it cost $220 resident tuition per term ($1358 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 1975, it cost $260 resident undergrad tuition per term ($1153 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 1985, it cost $664 resident undergrad tuition per term ($1480 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 1995, it cost $1220 resident undergrad tuition per term ($1921 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 2005, it cost $2616 resident undergrad tuition per term ($3208 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 2016, it cost $5268 non-guarantee resident undergrad tuition per term

So tuition in 2016 was 3.5x the tuition of 1985, 4.5x the tuition of 1975, 3.8x the tuition of 1970, and 4.3x the tuition of 1960 using inflation-adjusted dollars. Let's average that out and just say the tuition is currently 4x higher than the inflation-adjusted tuition of 1985 and earlier. If one went to Ohio University in 1995, it was still a third of the price of current tuition using inflation-adjusted dollars. Even in 2005, tuition was 60% of the current tuition using inflation-adjusted dollars.

So our theoretical Ohio student is looking at a college expense that is about 3x that of his parents' generation (1995) and 4x that of his grandparents' generation (1975 and earlier). Meanwhile, his grandparents $1.80/hour in 1975 would be the about same as Ohio minimum wage now.... but our theoretical student has to work 4x as long as his grandparents to pay the tuition bill.

Is it possible? Sure. But it is HARDER for our current theoretical Ohio student than it is for his parents or grandparents because college costs so much more these days than the inflation-adjusted costs of college in the past. The numbers do not lie on this one. Plug in a sampling of public universities and you'll see the same trend: college costs have vastly outpaced inflation, particularly since the Recession.
Yup, usually it's older people or those that did not go to college in past 20 years that don't seem to understand

Perkunas
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by Perkunas » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:30 am

deleted. Wasn't adding any value to discussion.

stoptothink
Posts: 4365
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by stoptothink » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:37 am

jehovasfitness wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:10 am
Mudpuppy wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:45 pm
livesoft wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:22 pm
Mudpuppy wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:00 pm
Can it be done? Yes, but it's not a healthy path (sleep tends to be the neglected component in the weekly time schedule) and it's far more work than someone of my generation had to do in order to go to college, much less my parents generation.
I did something like that to go to college, but minimum wage was $1.80 an hour back then and that's all I got for my summer job. I am pretty sure I have explained all this before. Can anybody else do what I had to do? Apparently not.
Let's use the BLS inflation calculator under a few scenarios: https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

$1.80/hour in Jan 1960 is the same as $15.23/hour in Jan 2018
$1.80/hour in Jan 1965 is the same as $14.30/hour in Jan 2018
$1.80/hour in Jan 1970 is the same as $11.80/hour in Jan 2018
$1.80/hour in Jan 1975 is the same as $8.56/hour in Jan 2018

So if you went to college before 1975, your $1.80/hour minimum wage had higher purchasing power than Ohio's current minimum wage. Only in 1975 does $1.80/hour become roughly equivalent to the purchasing power of the current Ohio minimum wage.

Also, you've said nothing about your tuition, but let's use our theoretical Ohio student again. I could not find a good history of tuition at Ohio State University, but Ohio University publishes their full tuition history since the Civil War at https://www.ohio.edu/instres/Factbook/tuitroom.html. Since that table only goes until 2016/17, we'll inflation-adjust to August 2016 dollars (the start of the 2016/17 academic year).

In 1960, it cost $150 resident tuition per term ($1220 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 1970, it cost $220 resident tuition per term ($1358 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 1975, it cost $260 resident undergrad tuition per term ($1153 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 1985, it cost $664 resident undergrad tuition per term ($1480 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 1995, it cost $1220 resident undergrad tuition per term ($1921 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 2005, it cost $2616 resident undergrad tuition per term ($3208 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 2016, it cost $5268 non-guarantee resident undergrad tuition per term

So tuition in 2016 was 3.5x the tuition of 1985, 4.5x the tuition of 1975, 3.8x the tuition of 1970, and 4.3x the tuition of 1960 using inflation-adjusted dollars. Let's average that out and just say the tuition is currently 4x higher than the inflation-adjusted tuition of 1985 and earlier. If one went to Ohio University in 1995, it was still a third of the price of current tuition using inflation-adjusted dollars. Even in 2005, tuition was 60% of the current tuition using inflation-adjusted dollars.

So our theoretical Ohio student is looking at a college expense that is about 3x that of his parents' generation (1995) and 4x that of his grandparents' generation (1975 and earlier). Meanwhile, his grandparents $1.80/hour in 1975 would be the about same as Ohio minimum wage now.... but our theoretical student has to work 4x as long as his grandparents to pay the tuition bill.

Is it possible? Sure. But it is HARDER for our current theoretical Ohio student than it is for his parents or grandparents because college costs so much more these days than the inflation-adjusted costs of college in the past. The numbers do not lie on this one. Plug in a sampling of public universities and you'll see the same trend: college costs have vastly outpaced inflation, particularly since the Recession.
Yup, usually it's older people or those that did not go to college in past 20 years that don't seem to understand
My university education ended in '12 , I am one of 5 siblings (among 7) who completed college education within the last decade (including one in a matter of weeks). Are we young enough? Zero parental assistance for any of us and only one of us finished with any debt. My wife is now finishing her undergrad degree, of course we are cash-flowing it as well. Nobody said it was easy or that rising costs haven't made it increasingly more difficult- I worked my tail off for 11yrs (double major BS, MS, then PhD while working full-time the entire time) - it may not be the norm (but neither is saving for retirement) but there are a ton of people currently doing exactly what I did (and what my siblings, and Livesoft, and Sandtrap did). There are a ton of books exactly on this topic (here is one https://www.amazon.com/Debt-Free-Outsta ... 1591842980).

Discussions of college on this board always confuse me. With a collection of people who are, in general, extremely hard-working and frugal, it is almost taboo to suggest that one works while in college or consider the cost of said college.

book lover
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by book lover » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:05 am

My impression of this Forum is that it was established by some very caring and knowledgeable people that wanted to help people with the financial part of their lives.People that post are from a wide variety of circumstances. The wealth of knowledge that is given freely here I will always be grateful for.

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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by Mike Scott » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:15 am

Two of my daughters have completed a total of three degrees with zero debt through scholarships and working part-time. The youngest is 3 years into triple STEM majors with the same. They all had choices of where to go and chose the staying at home / no debt route. They knew this was a good choice when they made it but after graduating and talking with friends they are beginning to realize just how important this is. Parental support has been food at home and enough hot water for three girls. :)

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:31 am

book lover wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:05 am
My impression of this Forum is that it was established by some very caring and knowledgeable people that wanted to help people with the financial part of their lives.People that post are from a wide variety of circumstances. The wealth of knowledge that is given freely here I will always be grateful for.
And I, in turn, thank you for saying that. I don't know that I have a wealth of knowledge, but I do share my ignorance freely :D I have recently been posting less, and less openly, because I've taken the remarks to heart about the site becoming a less welcoming place for the "normal" people, whatever that means exactly. I don't want to say that I've felt "rich shamed," but there have been, mostly recently, some posts that, when distilled to their essence, read like "that's easy for you to say, you have more money than I do," making me feel that my views are thus less worthy.

Even in today's world, intention has to count for something.

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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:36 am

jehovasfitness wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:10 am
Mudpuppy wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:45 pm
livesoft wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:22 pm
Mudpuppy wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:00 pm
Can it be done? Yes, but it's not a healthy path (sleep tends to be the neglected component in the weekly time schedule) and it's far more work than someone of my generation had to do in order to go to college, much less my parents generation.
I did something like that to go to college, but minimum wage was $1.80 an hour back then and that's all I got for my summer job. I am pretty sure I have explained all this before. Can anybody else do what I had to do? Apparently not.
Let's use the BLS inflation calculator under a few scenarios: https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

$1.80/hour in Jan 1960 is the same as $15.23/hour in Jan 2018
$1.80/hour in Jan 1965 is the same as $14.30/hour in Jan 2018
$1.80/hour in Jan 1970 is the same as $11.80/hour in Jan 2018
$1.80/hour in Jan 1975 is the same as $8.56/hour in Jan 2018

So if you went to college before 1975, your $1.80/hour minimum wage had higher purchasing power than Ohio's current minimum wage. Only in 1975 does $1.80/hour become roughly equivalent to the purchasing power of the current Ohio minimum wage.

Also, you've said nothing about your tuition, but let's use our theoretical Ohio student again. I could not find a good history of tuition at Ohio State University, but Ohio University publishes their full tuition history since the Civil War at https://www.ohio.edu/instres/Factbook/tuitroom.html. Since that table only goes until 2016/17, we'll inflation-adjust to August 2016 dollars (the start of the 2016/17 academic year).

In 1960, it cost $150 resident tuition per term ($1220 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 1970, it cost $220 resident tuition per term ($1358 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 1975, it cost $260 resident undergrad tuition per term ($1153 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 1985, it cost $664 resident undergrad tuition per term ($1480 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 1995, it cost $1220 resident undergrad tuition per term ($1921 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 2005, it cost $2616 resident undergrad tuition per term ($3208 in Aug 2016 dollars)
In 2016, it cost $5268 non-guarantee resident undergrad tuition per term

So tuition in 2016 was 3.5x the tuition of 1985, 4.5x the tuition of 1975, 3.8x the tuition of 1970, and 4.3x the tuition of 1960 using inflation-adjusted dollars. Let's average that out and just say the tuition is currently 4x higher than the inflation-adjusted tuition of 1985 and earlier. If one went to Ohio University in 1995, it was still a third of the price of current tuition using inflation-adjusted dollars. Even in 2005, tuition was 60% of the current tuition using inflation-adjusted dollars.

So our theoretical Ohio student is looking at a college expense that is about 3x that of his parents' generation (1995) and 4x that of his grandparents' generation (1975 and earlier). Meanwhile, his grandparents $1.80/hour in 1975 would be the about same as Ohio minimum wage now.... but our theoretical student has to work 4x as long as his grandparents to pay the tuition bill.

Is it possible? Sure. But it is HARDER for our current theoretical Ohio student than it is for his parents or grandparents because college costs so much more these days than the inflation-adjusted costs of college in the past. The numbers do not lie on this one. Plug in a sampling of public universities and you'll see the same trend: college costs have vastly outpaced inflation, particularly since the Recession.
Yup, usually it's older people or those that did not go to college in past 20 years that don't seem to understand
Hmmmmmmm. . . . . . . . :shock:
My senior memory is failing. . .

$1.25/hour washing dishes at Woolworth's at night. Carpenter's job's on the weekends. Short scholarships as I could get them.. . . .
Regardless of generation or era. . .
"It Don't Come Easy". . . Ringo Starr
or was it. . . "You Can't Always Get What You Want". . (but if you try sometime, you just might find, you get what you need. . ) Stones.

Actionably: The cost of "education" and "personal growth" includes or may not include "tuition". The school of "hard knocks', mentorship, a military career out of high school, et al, also has a price and benefit. There are many a "real world" and "Bogleheadville", "heavy hitter" that has come up outside of the paradigm of "tuition". Many started the corporations we invest in today on the S&P 500.

Understanding has breadth and depth, which is the beauty of shared experiences, knowledge, and personal growth, in "Bogleheadville". Everyone learns from the "life" heavy hitters.
j :D
Last edited by Sandtrap on Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

jehovasfitness
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by jehovasfitness » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:38 am

Bringing up scholarships during college cost discussion is moving the goal posts. Not everyone can get scholarships.

The fact remains that the cost of college has skyrocketed in relation to wages thus making it that much tougher for this generation to not have debt.

This isn't a debate and there are no alternative facts ;)

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munemaker
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by munemaker » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:40 am

NextMil wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:54 am
Instead of pulling people down, let’s cheer each other on and give a hand up.
I read back through this thread trying to identify a post where anyone was being pulled down, and I didn't find any.

Taspy87
Posts: 7
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by Taspy87 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:19 am

munemaker wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:18 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:14 am
On my lunchtime walk yesterday, I found a dime in the parking lot.
I went to Aldi's and some rich person left a quarter in the cart. I could have paid it forward but I pocketed it instead.
Haha! I love Aldi so, so much.

dirtytough
Posts: 18
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by dirtytough » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:32 am

When I see how much money some of the posters make on BH I don't feel jealous or inferior. I just feel like if I want to be that successful I need to work harder.

One of the first eye opening things I did because of this forum was max out my HSA. I always got $1k contributed to it from my employer but I never contributed anything on my own. I had done my taxes already for the year, but after reading a few threads on here the light bulb went off that if I contribute another $5k+ to it since I have a family I would save more on taxes. That saved me over $1k in taxes after I amended them.

I couldn't care less if I learned that from someone who makes $50k a year or $500k. It was valuable info to me. Now because of this forum DW and I will be maxing out 2 401k's, 2 Roths, and an HSA this year.

As for college costs my wife just finished up and we paid for it out of pocket. She could easily pay tuition costs working during the summer. So if a kid now days has parents that will let them stay at home then I see zero reason most kids should end up with school loans. If they can't stay at home then they might have to work during the school year and work 50-70 hours a week during the summer. But its still doable to graduate with very little debt if any.

Thanks to all the positive posters here on BH.

bubbadog
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by bubbadog » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:44 am

jehovasfitness wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:38 am
Bringing up scholarships during college cost discussion is moving the goal posts. Not everyone can get scholarships.

The fact remains that the cost of college has skyrocketed in relation to wages thus making it that much tougher for this generation to not have debt.

This isn't a debate and there are no alternative facts ;)
I skimmed through the most recent posts and I cannot find anyone suggesting it is easier now than it was for previous generations.

I did read several posts where people graduated with little or no debt by working part time, living at home, etc..

The math may be more difficult now than for previous generations, but I still think the math works.

Have a great Easter.

GCD
Posts: 536
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by GCD » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:45 am

Sandtrap wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:02 pm
The tremendous value of the forum is that suggestions and advice, as well as mutual encouragement, "generally" comes from folks that have "walked the talk". :D

Not book learned theory or spreadsheet desk jockeys. But, those who have accumulated wealth $1 at a time through work and savings -- diligence, perseverance, and patience -- real life in the real world.

aloha
j :D
Very true.

Who do you want to get your advice from? And even if some of them are humblebrags, there is value in seeing how a person who has acquired wealth thinks through things.

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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by Mudpuppy » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:03 pm

And now we get back to what I said in my first post: The younger generation that posts here are, for the most part, the few of the population who were able to overcome obstacles through some combination of luck and skill. That's why the OP noticed trends such as high paying jobs and windfalls. But I fear, and the majority of the responses so far have done nothing to assuage that fear, that many don't realize how much of an outlier they are from the population and that what they did to succeed will not work for everyone else who tries it due to the role luck played in their path to success. Hard work and frugality are factors, but so is luck of circumstances and luck of timing. You can't replicate luck and you can't go back in time.

Today's youth have to work much harder and/or just be plain lucky to achieve the same basic level of success of their parents and grandparents. I've seen too many good people fail through no fault of their own to buy into the belief that everyone who tries hard will make it. Some people will try hard, but just be unlucky (illness, injury, layoffs, family issues, etc) and those people do not post here for the most part. Given how much harder it is to pay for college these days and how much a college degree is needed to land good-paying jobs, the proportion of the good, hard working people who try their best and fail through no fault of their own is only going to go up.

There are always going to be examples of those who did succeed, and this forum can produce them in spades since this forum is primarily populated by the successful, but that does not reflect the median for the population. Nor does it mean everyone else can follow the same playbook and end up with the same level of success, particularly if that playbook was written a decade or more ago and involves college education. And that does not reflect poorly upon the people in today's youth who don't succeed. Life can throw curve balls at people that completely knock them off their paths due to bad luck (bad luck is as much a factor in failure as good luck is in success). Responding with the equivalent of "well, I did it" or "well, my son/daughter did it" is neither constructive, nor empathetic, with the circumstances of their path. It is not surprising that people who are struggling do not post here very often. I doubt they'd find empathetic support or proper consideration for what can be done given their current circumstances if they did.

Edit: Typo

ncbill
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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by ncbill » Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:00 pm

jehovasfitness wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:38 am
Bringing up scholarships during college cost discussion is moving the goal posts. Not everyone can get scholarships.

The fact remains that the cost of college has skyrocketed in relation to wages thus making it that much tougher for this generation to not have debt.

This isn't a debate and there are no alternative facts ;)
I'm still surprised more people here don't consider the military.

In some states joining the National Guard will qualify one for free tuition at public schools, plus GI Bill-Reserve benefits of a few hundred/month towards room & board, plus cheap health insurance via Tricare.

Or go active duty for the more generous G.I. Bill benefits afterward.

Those two routes above don't involve scholarships (ROTC or service academy appointments)

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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by jehovasfitness » Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:38 pm

ncbill wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:00 pm
jehovasfitness wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:38 am
Bringing up scholarships during college cost discussion is moving the goal posts. Not everyone can get scholarships.

The fact remains that the cost of college has skyrocketed in relation to wages thus making it that much tougher for this generation to not have debt.

This isn't a debate and there are no alternative facts ;)
I'm still surprised more people here don't consider the military.

In some states joining the National Guard will qualify one for free tuition at public schools, plus GI Bill-Reserve benefits of a few hundred/month towards room & board, plus cheap health insurance via Tricare.

Or go active duty for the more generous G.I. Bill benefits afterward.

Those two routes above don't involve scholarships (ROTC or service academy appointments)
Sad that education could literally cost you an arm and a leg;)

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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by GCD » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:37 pm

Mudpuppy wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:03 pm
But I fear, and the majority of the responses so far have done nothing to assuage that fear, that many don't realize how much of an outlier they are from the population and that what they did to succeed will not work for everyone else who tries it due to the role luck played in their path to success...

There are always going to be examples of those who did succeed, and this forum can produce them in spades since this forum is primarily populated by the successful, but that does not reflect the median for the population...

Responding with the equivalent of "well, I did it" or "well, my son/daughter did it" is neither constructive, nor empathetic, with the circumstances of their path.
Nobody is forced to take anyone's advice. If you come here for advice you get a certain type of reply. I guess the board can't be all things to all people.

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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by NextMil » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:06 pm

munemaker wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:40 am
NextMil wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:54 am
Instead of pulling people down, let’s cheer each other on and give a hand up.
I read back through this thread trying to identify a post where anyone was being pulled down, and I didn't find any.
I am not going to play this game. Are you just trolling or are you deliberately asking me to identify a singular post where the sentiment was one of not lifting up others?

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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by munemaker » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:22 pm

NextMil wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:06 pm
munemaker wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:40 am
NextMil wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:54 am
Instead of pulling people down, let’s cheer each other on and give a hand up.
I read back through this thread trying to identify a post where anyone was being pulled down, and I didn't find any.
I am not going to play this game. Are you just trolling or are you deliberately asking me to identify a singular post where the sentiment was one of not lifting up others?
Sorry. Neither actually. I am just wondering why you feel some people on here are trying to pull others down. While there are differences of opinion and occasionally hurt feelings, it almost seems universal that people on here try to help others.

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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:38 pm

Impending Thread Lock.

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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by GCD » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:12 am

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing too. But if we take the contentious stuff to PM the thread will survive. I thought about sending a PM instead of posting. I probably should have.

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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by tennisplyr » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:24 am

As someone once told me...you should always hear what others have to say but you don't have to listen to their advice.
Those who move forward with a happy spirit will find that things always work out.

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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by NextMil » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:47 am

munemaker wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:22 pm
Sorry. Neither actually. I am just wondering why you feel some people on here are trying to pull others down. While there are differences of opinion and occasionally hurt feelings, it almost seems universal that people on here try to help others.
In this very thread you point out that people get money shamed on this board. I am not sure why we are even discussing this, when it’s obvious, to use one of your qualifiers, occasionally there is a less than positive sentiment, which is why I suggested we not gone down that road.

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Re: A lot of heavy hitters this morning

Post by LadyGeek » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:05 am

This thread has run its course and is locked (topic exhausted, getting contentious). See: Locked Topics
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