Future of the Diehards?

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SoonerSunDevil
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Future of the Diehards?

Post by SoonerSunDevil »

Greetings all,

I started a post on the original Diehards thread asking Taylor and Mel for their thoughts on the possibility of moving or staying on the M* boards. Your comments and concerns regarding this topic are greatly appreciated.

Here is the link to the M* thread http://socialize.morningstar.com/NewSoc ... vId=195340
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oneleaf
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I look forward to Mel and Taylor's responses

Post by oneleaf »

I can understand this being a very difficult choice for them.

I personally would love to see the community own their own forum and postings and have more control over policies. And I bet that as long as the forum is on a commercial site, issues such as what we recently came across (the hocus issue) will continue.

However, the founding members have long ties to Morningstar, and it is such an established site, that there is much more to consider.

Thanks again to Phoenix for putting this forum together!
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AshKK
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let us decide quickly, but don't divide

Post by AshKK »

John,

The M* Diehards forum was/is great because of the collection of great folks. Taylor, Mel, and Larry are the biggest names that come to mind. It will really depend on where they decide to stay.

I don't really have a preference of one over the other. This board has really cool features, but right now, that is all it has going for it. And by saying that, I mean no disrespect to the folks who have already registered (such as Mel, Andy, Petrocelli, to name a few) and are posting here.

The worst outcome, in my opinion, would be if we ended up having two boards, with some posting here and some there.

So I am glad you started that thread over there, John. I hope there is some consensus as to what the future direction should be.
Ash | | The 82nd Boglehead.
jms969
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Other board

Post by jms969 »

I for one refused to join the other board (the $5 and more importantly my personal information).

I think this board will eventually eclipse the other board and will turn into a fine resource for Vanguard Diehards.

Good Luck!!!!!!!
I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car.
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Gary
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Post by Gary »

norm
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Post by norm »

I belong to four other forums that are for people with similar ailments and many of us belong to at least two of those boards. Although there are repetitive posts from board to board there are people that only belong to one of the forums and the post is new for them.
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Phoenix
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Post by Phoenix »

I will be interested in what Mel and Taylor have to say as well. I tried to make the issues of control and motives as clear as I could in this post. I hope they will read that post and consider carefully before deciding.
leonard
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Your post to Taylor, Mel, et al is very nicely done

Post by leonard »

John - your appeal to Taylor, Mel et Al about giving the new forum a try was very well written. Nicely done!
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fire5soon
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Post by fire5soon »

I'm a member of several finance boards so I don't think it's an either/or situation. Although I will probably spend much more time over here because the format is so much more user friendly. 8)

-Jay
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simba
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Post by simba »

Mel replied to Converstaion # 195340 on M*
Hi John and Everyone:

Taylor and I want you to know that we're working behind the scenes to try to come up with a workable solution. It probably will take some time, so we don't want you to think that we're not working on it.

We've developed a number of scenarios and solutions, and are trying to play Solomon to select the option that works best for everyone, if that's humanly possible.

In the meantime, continue to post wherever you're most comfortable. However, that doesn't mean you have to choose to limit yourself to one site or the other. There are lots of good Diehards at both sites, and many of them post at both sites.

Best regards to all,

Mel & Taylor
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SoonerSunDevil
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Thanks

Post by SoonerSunDevil »

I appreciate everyone's responses to this thread, as well as those who have posted on the original site. I hope we get some sort of resolution to this issue.
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Socrativestor
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Mixed Feelings

Post by Socrativestor »

Personally I have very mixed feelings about this new site and have resisted joining until today. While I appreciate the sentiment behind it and the better technical quality of it, I think a Diehards schism is a step backwards because the "networking effect" of having all everyone in one place is absolutely the most important factor bar none. Moreover being at M* does provide a level of visibility and attraction of newbies that no other host could possibly provide. (That's how I stumbled upon it, for instance.)

So I resisted joining here and just lurked on both places. Not great, but not the end of the world. But today I want to post a question (which I shall) but I was confronted with a meta-question: "Where do I post my question?" I could post at DH Classic but it seems that the quality of the conversation has fallen markedly since many of high-powered (IMHO :lol: ) posters have fled. I could post at DH II but feel like I am being disloyal to a community that saved my financial bacon. Plus, posting at one or the other seems to run the risk of missing the feedback of "the other half" of the community. So, should I post at both and put a link to "the other DH" thread in each? Ugggh!!

Personally I'd like to see this board closed and everyone return to M*. But somehow I don't think that's going to happen. And to be honest, the quality of this board is outstanding (perhaps even more outstanding than DH Classic -- though for example I don't think I've seen Larry Swedroe, Rick Ferri, William Bernstein et al here but maybe they'll come). So I have reluctantly "jumped ship" and will be posting my question in a few moments -- and probably not at DH Classic (though we'll see). Wish I felt better about it though. And hope the powers that be can solve this problem quickly.

:oops:
--Socrativestor | "Neither of us has any knowledge to boast of, but he thinks that he knows something which he does not know, whereas I am quite conscious of my ignorance."
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arrete
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Post by arrete »

Socrativestor - You may not have seen this because it scrolled off the first page pretty quickly. Mel and Taylor answer in #16
Taylor and I want you to know that we're working behind the scenes to try to come up with a workable solution. It probably will take some time, so we don't want you to think that we're not working on it.

We've developed a number of scenarios and solutions, and are trying to play Solomon to select the option that works best for everyone, if that's humanly possible.

In the meantime, continue to post wherever you're most comfortable. However, that doesn't mean you have to choose to limit yourself to one site or the other. There are lots of good Diehards at both sites, and many of them post at both sites.

Best regards to all,

Mel & Taylor
So they're working on something.

Kathy
Quando omni flunkus moritati
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CyberBob
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Re: Mixed Feelings

Post by CyberBob »

Socrativestor wrote:Personally I'd like to see this board closed and everyone return to M*.
I assume that what you really want is to just have everyone together, and I agree that it would be nice to have everyone in one place. After all, the Diehard community is really the people, not the actual place. But this board is much nicer than M*.

This board can grow in any way that the Diehard community sees fit and in ways that are totally impossible at M*. And as Bylo mentioned in another post:
Bylo Selhi wrote:He's (Phoenix) done more to improve the functionality of the Vanguard Diehards forum in one day than M* did in 10 years.
Socrativestor wrote:Moreover being at M* does provide a level of visibility and attraction of newbies
I Googled 'Diehards' and the #1 hit wasn't M* but Diehards.org, and that could easily be pointed here.
Last edited by CyberBob on Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JMacDonald
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Post by JMacDonald »

Hi,
This is the seventh day for this board, and it looks like it is here to stay. I like the feel and tone of the new place. Maybe everybody is just being extra nice and things will heat up later, but I think this is going to work out. We now have over 300 posters who have sign up and over 1300 posts. I don't see any need for myself to post over at M* anymore. Best Wishes.

Joe
Wagnerjb
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Re: Mixed Feelings

Post by Wagnerjb »

Socrativestor wrote: I could post at DH Classic but it seems that the quality of the conversation has fallen markedly since many of high-powered (IMHO :lol: ) posters have fled. I could post at DH II but feel like I am being disloyal to a community that saved my financial bacon.
Morningstar didn't "save your bacon". The posters did. If you feel that they are predominantly here now, you are not being disloyal at all.

I agree with JMacDonald. While I have made a few posts at the old site recently, I find this site much more exciting. I may continue to browse the old site occasionally for topics that particularly interest me, but IMO the best minds are here (this includes you). I want to discuss and debate with a large group of the best minds, and I find it here.

While some may feel loyalty to M*, I don't. I have no animosity towards them, but don't feel like they have done anything to earn our business. Even if the M* site is magically transformed into a modern site tomorrow, I doubt it will regain most of the over 300 folks here (some were never at M*). Abruptly shutting down this site will simply cause one of the 300 posters to open another site, as Phoenix has demonstrated how easy and cheap it is to host such a website. Hopefully we end up at Diehards.org with a link to both sites as a good interim solution.

An awful lot of people are "voting" by joining and posting here.

Best wishes.
Andy
joppy
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RE: Mixed feelings

Post by joppy »

I agree with what Socrativestor said in his post (Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:29 am Post subject: Mixed Feelings) regarding a schism in the community. I too wonder which board to post on - some people are posting the same question on both boards. I also think that even if I do post the same question on both boards and get answers on both boards, I still lose out on the networking effect that Socrativestor mentioned.

The best solution may be for the "gurus" of the M* Diehards board to move to this board.

But if that doesn't happen, having everyone in one place even if it is technologically inferior, is more important to me than the better technical quality of this board.

- Joppy

PS: I would like to commend Phoenix on his effort, and nothing I said should detract from the praise he deserves for putting this forum together so well and so quickly.
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CyberBob
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M* vs. Here

Post by CyberBob »

I think that this politically-correct post by M*Casey shows plainly that M* is just too bureaucratic to ever be as good as this board can be.
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alvinsch
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Re: M* vs. Here

Post by alvinsch »

CyberBob wrote:I think that this politically-correct post by M*Casey shows plainly that M* is just too bureaucratic to ever be as good as this board can be.
Yea, I thought the following was particularly insightful, no fix identified or even a commitment to a fix but they've quantified the scope of the problem.
We were able to quantify the scope of the problem because of the help and guidance we received from forum participants via the community watch feature.
On the other hand, how will I survive without being able to discuss the nocturnal habits of financial advisors (i.e. 55 year old virgin)!!

- Al
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Re: M* vs. Here

Post by Wagnerjb »

alvinsch wrote:Yea, I thought the following was particularly insightful, no fix identified or even a commitment to a fix but they've quantified the scope of the problem.
We were able to quantify the scope of the problem because of the help and guidance we received from forum participants via the community watch feature.
- Al
The problems with the search feature have occured and re-occured many times over the years. People were begging M* to act (including me). Not only did they not act, they didn't even acknowledge the problem for the longest time.

M* is now only responding because they have a gun to their head (the threatened loss of most of the Diehards). They have had many opportunities over the past 5 years (my time at M*) to demonstrate their commitment to the conversation boards. They have spoken loudly with their (in)action.

Best wishes.
Andy
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oneleaf
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Post by oneleaf »

What do people think about M*'s proposal to take suggestions to improve the forum?

On one hand, I think it's great that they are doing it. On the other hand, I am a bit concerned that the improvements will encourage the community to overlook some of the other unique benefits of this site. For instance, there is nothing M* can do that can match the fact that this forum could become entirely owned by the community, with flexibility to set its own policies, upgrade the system, do fundraising, own the content, etc...

I don't want this post to make it sound like I am belittling M*'s efforts, as I totally find it commendable if they really make the effort. However, my point is that even if M* bends over backwards for the community, it would still fall short of the potential that a community-owned forum could become.

I'm curious to hear other people's thoughts on this?
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CyberBob
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Re: M* vs. Here

Post by CyberBob »

Wagnerjb wrote:M* is now only responding because they have a gun to their head (the threatened loss of most of the Diehards).
I think a board like this has virtually unlimited potential. And that potential can never really be fulfilled at Morningstar simply because anything someone there does, they do because they have to, i.e. it's their job. Anything Phoenix or other people do here, they do because they want the community to thrive. Big difference, in my opinion.
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alvinsch
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Re: M* vs. Here

Post by alvinsch »

Wagnerjb wrote:The problems with the search feature have occured and re-occured many times over the years. People were begging M* to act (including me). Not only did they not act, they didn't even acknowledge the problem for the longest time.

M* is now only responding because they have a gun to their head (the threatened loss of most of the Diehards). They have had many opportunities over the past 5 years (my time at M*) to demonstrate their commitment to the conversation boards. They have spoken loudly with their (in)action.
I been lurking here since around '98', so you're preaching to the choir on that one. ;)

Regards,
- Al
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CyberBob
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Re: M* vs. Here

Post by CyberBob »

alvinsch wrote:Yea, I thought the following was particularly insightful, no fix identified or even a commitment to a fix but they've quantified the scope of the problem.
M*Casey wrote:We were able to quantify the scope of the problem because of the help and guidance we received from forum participants via the community watch feature.
M* has internet/tech people working there. Any one of them could tell you what's wrong with their boards.
M* asking us for input on how to improve them is just a smokescreen.
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goggles
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Post by goggles »

I think it's funny that Morningstar is now opening a suggestion box. The thing is, they've been receiving suggestions all along. Those comments have been studiously ignored. I have zero faith that they'll do any more than a surface repair job on the old diehards board. I'm sticking over here.
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JMacDonald
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Post by JMacDonald »

Hi,
M* is doing what all companies do when they see competition: they are trying to improve their product. However, in this case, they have left open a door that won't be closed anytime soon. This forum is far superior to what M* has at the present time. Best Wishes.

Joe
LynnC
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Post by LynnC »

goggles wrote:
I think it's funny that Morningstar is now opening a suggestion box. The thing is, they've been receiving suggestions all along. Those comments have been studiously ignored.


Agreed. Nothing is going to change.

This is a very nice site. Thank you Phoenix. Hello, Al.

LynnC
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alvinsch
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Post by alvinsch »

LynnC wrote:
goggles wrote:
I think it's funny that Morningstar is now opening a suggestion box. The thing is, they've been receiving suggestions all along. Those comments have been studiously ignored.


Agreed. Nothing is going to change.

This is a very nice site. Thank you Phoenix. Hello, Al.

LynnC

Hi Lynn

Good to "see" you over here. Hopefully the next diehards reunion that's closer to the left coast will give us a chance to get together again.

Say hello to M.
- Al
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NAVigator
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so that's where you are!

Post by NAVigator »

The volume dropped off over there, and not just because Hocus is gone. It was getting lonely, so I thought I'd come join you folks. Some were more ready to move than others. At least I didn't have to turn off the lights!

I hope that with the new diehards.org, the two locations can be effectively joined so new people can select where to go and find a group of helpful people, just I as did several years ago.

Jerry
Wagnerjb
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Re: so that's where you are!

Post by Wagnerjb »

NAVigator wrote:The volume dropped off over there, and not just because Hocus is gone. It was getting lonely, so I thought I'd come join you folks. Some were more ready to move than others. At least I didn't have to turn off the lights!

I hope that with the new diehards.org, the two locations can be effectively joined so new people can select where to go and find a group of helpful people, just I as did several years ago.

Jerry
Good to see you here Jerry. I look forward to many more interesting and production discussions over here, and folks like you sure help make them top notch.

Best wishes.
Andy
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CountryBoy
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Thank You Phoenix

Post by CountryBoy »

Thank You Thank You Thank You.

My loyalty is to the Diehards and not the telephone number, street address, or zip code where they are located.

Country Boy

Thank You Phoenix
tplatt
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Re: Other board

Post by tplatt »

jms969 wrote:I for one refused to join the other board (the $5
I'll second that. $5 to post on an internet forum is a bit ridiculous. I imagine it helps keep the spammers out though...
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cfs
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Well, as we can see

Post by cfs »

Life goes on, and things are getting BETTER on this forum.

Plus our sister forum is alive and well.

LIFE IS GOOD.

cfs
~ Member of the Active Retired Force since 2014 ~
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WiseNLucky
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Post by WiseNLucky »

I have to say, having been a participant at the other site for five years or so, that I wasn't happy to see the creation of this new forum. I particularly was unhappy with the whole hocus aspect of the schism, having participated in another discussion board that he brought down.

The difficulty of use on the other forum basically made me primarily a lurker. I don't have much of value to share, but I do believe that members should contribute if they take something away. I was always taking from the other site and very seldom giving back.

In just two weeks on this forum my familiarity with the software and ease of posting means I have almost matched my entire five-year post total on the other site. I guess I have inadvertently become an active participant on this forum. My apologies to you all.
WiseNLucky
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tc101
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Message boards

Post by tc101 »

I usually start at http://www.diehards.org/ which gives me a list of messages from both boards. That is a wonderful site and I am greatful to whoever set it up.

I usually only post new material on this board because it is so much easier to use. For example I just posted something about long term care insurance that had several typos in it. I was able to go in and correct those here. I couldn't have done that on the old board.
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cfs
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Wise and Tc

Post by cfs »

Wise and Tc - Correcto on all counts, this is a very easy to use forum [user friendly]. No reason to apologize !!!

cfs
~ Member of the Active Retired Force since 2014 ~
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