Fewer acronyms please

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alexander29
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Fewer acronyms please

Post by alexander29 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:20 pm

I much enjoy the Boglehead forums but am frequently stumped by the acronyms that are sprinkled so richly in its intriguing advice. Today's was TLH, which apparently stands for tax loss harvesting. Although I eventually puzzle most of them out, the vigor of our posters suggests they could provide much clarification with just a few more keystrokes. Yes, most of us know IRA, 401K, etc. Examples that irk are DH, DW, IMHO (do you have a dishonest opinion? Isn't your post an opinion?) YSP, MAGI, UHNW, VNQ, NIIT, MUB, AOTC, HELOC, SCU, HCOL, LCOL, VUL, FSA, TIB and on and on. Nor do I ever recognize the Nav shorthand symbols for mutual funds, including the ones I own. For those of us on the slower side, spell it out! (And thanks Taylor Larimore for doing just that.)

longleaf
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by longleaf » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:22 pm

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Abbrevi ... d_Acronyms

By the way, imho is in my humble opinion
Last edited by longleaf on Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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UpperNwGuy
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by UpperNwGuy » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:23 pm

+1 for using fewer acronyms. Especially the ticker symbols. And having an acronym wiki is not really helpful if you have to stop reading a post, go find the wiki, find the meaning of the acronym, and then return to the post. This is my opinion, and it sure ain't humble.

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Blueskies123
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by Blueskies123 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:32 pm

Agreed, ticker symbols should always be followed by their proper name.

Dottie57
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by Dottie57 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:36 pm

I often am lost in a the acrnyms too. I ask what they mean if it doesn' become clear.

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by DaftInvestor » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:42 pm

OP,
It took me a while to get used to when I started too but i got used to it. YMMV.
Oh - and FYI /BTW in case you don't know OP = Original Poster (I've guessed).
LOL

livesoft
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by livesoft » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:48 pm

Language binds us together and acronyms, shortcuts, and abbreviations are what makes a community.

If I don't understand a term (and I want to know what it means), then I use google to give me the answer in another browser window or another browser tab. But I do have a problem when a word doesn't have the meaning that was intended, such as the word adverse. I am not averse to looking up acronyms.
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retiredjg
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by retiredjg » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:55 pm

livesoft wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:48 pm
Language binds us together and acronyms, shortcuts, and abbreviations are what makes a community.
This is true. But they are also what makes people outside the community feel unwelcome or unable to join in.

I'd rather avoid that. I want people to feel comfortable here. For this reason, I use them in a limited way.

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dm200
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by dm200 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:58 pm

One technique, perhaps, is to spell it out the first time - then use the acronym.

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by DaftInvestor » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:59 pm

livesoft wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:48 pm
Language binds us together and acronyms, shortcuts, and abbreviations are what makes a community.

If I don't understand a term (and I want to know what it means), then I use google to give me the answer in another browser window or another browser tab. But I do have a problem when a word doesn't have the meaning that was intended, such as the word adverse. I am not averse to looking up acronyms.
Google doesn't always work. The first time someone used PSA here I googled it and was pretty sure the person wasn't talking about "Prostate Specific Antigen" :) - so I asked - Public Service Announcement.

livesoft
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by livesoft » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:01 pm

Did you google "PSA abbrev" or "PSA acronym"?

In any event, I am fine if there were fewer acronyms, too.
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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:03 pm

If I were in charge, which I'm not, and in fact nobody controls anybody else's posts, although there is a mechanism by which to challenge them afterward, and the first amendment applies but only in its freedom of the press sense, which Alex owns, except it only constrains government actions, what with the 14th amendment mostly constraining state and local governments too, we always would write assuming our audience knows English as a third language.

If anybody doesn't like the freedom of the press sense, they're free to start running their own press.

PJW
Last edited by Phineas J. Whoopee on Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Index Fan
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by Index Fan » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:07 pm

Agree on the acronyms, particularly ticker symbols.
dm200 wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:58 pm
One technique, perhaps, is to spell it out the first time - then use the acronym.
+1
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obafgkm
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by obafgkm » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:11 pm

I remember with fondness the thread subject which had the abbreviation “IA”. It meant “Iowa”.

Of course it does. But really, two more keystrokes isn’t too much to ask... :annoyed
Last edited by obafgkm on Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

livesoft
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by livesoft » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:13 pm

obafgkm wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:11 pm
I remember with fondness the thread subject which had the abbreviation “IA”. It meant “Iowa”.
There was the one which used LA and only later did people figure out the poster was not paying CA state income taxes.
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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:18 pm

livesoft wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:13 pm
obafgkm wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:11 pm
I remember with fondness the thread subject which had the abbreviation “IA”. It meant “Iowa”.
There was the one which used LA and only later did people figure out the poster was not paying CA state income taxes.
Lower Alabama? For a few months one grad school summer I had a research project boss who used it in that sense.

PJW

retiredjg
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by retiredjg » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:20 pm

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:03 pm
If I were in charge, which I'm not, and in fact nobody controls anybody else's posts, although there is a mechanism by which to challenge them afterward, and the first amendment applies but only in its freedom of the press sense, which Alex owns, except it only constrains government actions, what with the 14th amendment mostly constraining state and local governments too, we always would write assuming our audience knows English as a third language.

If anybody doesn't like the freedom of the press sense, they're free to start running their own press.

PJW
:shock: Totally unintelligible.

Maybe that is the point?

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climber2020
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by climber2020 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:20 pm

The one that bugs me the most is YMMV. Your mileage may vary. Unless you're dealing with pure mathematics, of course YMMV for pretty much everything involving the human experience. It's a term that doesn't add anything of substance, like tacking on "you know what I'm saying?" to the end of a sentence.

ResearchMed
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by ResearchMed » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:22 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:42 pm
OP,
It took me a while to get used to when I started too but i got used to it. YMMV.
Oh - and FYI /BTW in case you don't know OP = Original Poster (I've guessed).
LOL
Uh oh...

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:wink:

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Alexa9
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by Alexa9 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:23 pm

I don't mind them. Easy to abbreviate:
Vanguard Total International Stock Index Exchange Traded Fund
or
VXUS :mrgreen:

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femur
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by femur » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:24 pm

DW and DH really annoy me. Is it really that much trouble to type wife or husband?

motorcyclesarecool
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by motorcyclesarecool » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:26 pm

obafgkm wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:11 pm
I remember with fondness the thread subject which had the abbreviation “IA”. It meant “Iowa”.

Of course it does. But really, two more keystrokes isn’t too much to ask... :annoyed
Ow. :oops:
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DrGoogle2017
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by DrGoogle2017 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:29 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:42 pm
OP,
It took me a while to get used to when I started too but i got used to it. YMMV.
Oh - and FYI /BTW in case you don't know OP = Original Poster (I've guessed).
LOL
It took my husband a while to guess what’s LOL when his kids first replied to him. He was thinking the good old fashioned British sign off as Lots of Love, haha, just saying.
Last edited by DrGoogle2017 on Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

9liner
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by 9liner » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:30 pm

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:18 pm
livesoft wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:13 pm
obafgkm wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:11 pm
I remember with fondness the thread subject which had the abbreviation “IA”. It meant “Iowa”.
There was the one which used LA and only later did people figure out the poster was not paying CA state income taxes.
Lower Alabama? For a few months one grad school summer I had a research project boss who used it in that sense.

PJW
Spent 18 months in Lower Alabama during flight school. Still affectionately refer to it as my "LA Experience".

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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:38 pm

retiredjg wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:20 pm
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:03 pm
If I were in charge, which I'm not, and in fact nobody controls anybody else's posts, although there is a mechanism by which to challenge them afterward, and the first amendment applies but only in its freedom of the press sense, which Alex owns, except it only constrains government actions, what with the 14th amendment mostly constraining state and local governments too, we always would write assuming our audience knows English as a third language.

If anybody doesn't like the freedom of the press sense, they're free to start running their own press.

PJW
:shock: Totally unintelligible.

Maybe that is the point?
Neigh.

The Bill of Rights applies to government violations. A private owner of a press can't (mostly) be subjected to prior restraint for publishing or declining to publish information, but may, depending on the situation, face consequences later.

The private owner of a press is not engaging in Bill-of-Rights-prohibited censorship by deciding what to publish or not publish using their own press.

Only da gubmint has the power, but given the First and Fourteenth Amendments not the authority, to engage in prior-restraint style censorship. Mostly.

If I was unintelligible, I meant not to be, but probably I failed. Mostly. I call for us voluntarily to write for an audience for whom English is a third language.

PJW
Last edited by Phineas J. Whoopee on Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.

ResearchMed
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by ResearchMed » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:43 pm

DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:29 pm
DaftInvestor wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:42 pm
OP,
It took me a while to get used to when I started too but i got used to it. YMMV.
Oh - and FYI /BTW in case you don't know OP = Original Poster (I've guessed).
LOL
It took my husband a while to guess what’s LOL when his kids first replied to him. He was thinking the good old fashioned British sign off as Lots of Love, haha, just saying.
Nope!

It definitely stands for Little Old Lady.
(And "proud of it!" :D )

RM
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Nestegg_User
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by Nestegg_User » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:49 pm

9liner wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:30 pm
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:18 pm
livesoft wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:13 pm
obafgkm wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:11 pm
I remember with fondness the thread subject which had the abbreviation “IA”. It meant “Iowa”.
There was the one which used LA and only later did people figure out the poster was not paying CA state income taxes.
Lower Alabama? For a few months one grad school summer I had a research project boss who used it in that sense.

PJW
Spent 18 months in Lower Alabama during flight school. Still affectionately refer to it as my "LA Experience".

Rucker, eh?

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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:51 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:43 pm
DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:29 pm
DaftInvestor wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:42 pm
OP,
It took me a while to get used to when I started too but i got used to it. YMMV.
Oh - and FYI /BTW in case you don't know OP = Original Poster (I've guessed).
LOL
It took my husband a while to guess what’s LOL when his kids first replied to him. He was thinking the good old fashioned British sign off as Lots of Love, haha, just saying.
Nope!

It definitely stands for Little Old Lady.
(And "proud of it!" :D )

RM
ROTFL!

PJW

Jack FFR1846
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:53 pm

I once was active on a car enthusiast website where there was a comical amount of the acronym "JDM", Japanese Domestic Market, referring to parts only available in Japan but imported and use on cars here. The webmasters set up a script so that anytime the acryonym was used, it would be changed to "broken".

It was pretty hilarious. Would be tough to do here where acronyms and abbreviations are the norm.
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jadedfalcons
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by jadedfalcons » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:54 pm

YOLO!

Miriam2
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by Miriam2 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:02 pm

To quote 53timr -
I AG REE WIT DIS

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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by Epsilon Delta » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:11 pm

Somethings vary more than others.
Somethings are more opinion than others.

You should not try to write more clearly than you think. Qualifiers are not evil.

retiredjg
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by retiredjg » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:31 pm

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:38 pm
I call for us voluntarily to write for an audience for whom English is a third language.

PJW
Me too.

GoldenFinch
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by GoldenFinch » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:48 pm

jadedfalcons wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:54 pm
YOLO!
You Old Literary Orangutan?

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fear/greed
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by fear/greed » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:24 pm

femur wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:24 pm
DW and DH really annoy me. Is it really that much trouble to type wife or husband?
Da wife and da husband...
And then there are da kids...

Bmac
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by Bmac » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:07 pm

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:51 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:43 pm
DrGoogle2017 wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:29 pm
DaftInvestor wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:42 pm
OP,
It took me a while to get used to when I started too but i got used to it. YMMV.
Oh - and FYI /BTW in case you don't know OP = Original Poster (I've guessed).
LOL
It took my husband a while to guess what’s LOL when his kids first replied to him. He was thinking the good old fashioned British sign off as Lots of Love, haha, just saying.
Nope!

It definitely stands for Little Old Lady.
(And "proud of it!" :D )

RM
ROTFL!

PJW

Had to google that last one. I’m more familiar with the more profane LMAO. Which perhaps doesn’t flatter me.

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triceratop
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by triceratop » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:20 pm

I prefer acronyms. If used accurately it greatly increases the speed with which I can read posts. It takes <3 seconds to look up a ticker in a new tab and close the tab and most tickers in common to less common use are familiar to me now.
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sreynard
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by sreynard » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:22 pm

It can at times be hard to figure them out, especially when posters use them out of context in a digression.

The company I work for has a decades long history of people making up acronyms and then using them as if they were industry standard. Marketing managers seem to do it the most, for some reason, but I've had project managers do it routinely as well. My conclusion was that they think it makes them look intelligent or "in the know". Actually, it does the exact opposite.

Almost as annoying is when people use a foreign language and don't offer a translation. Maybe it makes them feel superior about their worthless college degree? Hic est sermo sem. (I would have used, "Would you like fries with that?", but couldn't figure it out and it would have been too anachronistic.)

The purpose of communication should be to communicate, not to obfuscate.

randomguy
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by randomguy » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:33 pm

retiredjg wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:31 pm
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:38 pm
I call for us voluntarily to write for an audience for whom English is a third language.

PJW
Me too.
All the people i know who have english as a 2nd or 3rd language have no problems with acronyms. It is using big words like "voluntary" and cultural references that make comprehension hard. Acronyms have been a part of online culture for at least 30 years. I think you will be disappointed if you expect things to change. MNHO:)

sreynard
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by sreynard » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:45 pm

triceratop wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:20 pm
I prefer acronyms. If used accurately it greatly increases the speed with which I can read posts. It takes <3 seconds to look up a ticker in a new tab and close the tab and most tickers in common to less common use are familiar to me now.
I don't bother. If a poster uses an acronym or ticker symbol I don't know, I just skip it. If they wanted me to know what they meant they would have taken the time to type it out. I don't find it takes me all that much longer to read 'wife'. Though I do like the occasional ROTFLMAO when used appropriately, however even that I don't find any faster to read the acronym than reading it typed out.

perl
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by perl » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:45 am

Acronyms signal insider status, showing that you are in the know. They are unwelcoming and exclude newcomers. If the forum wants to encourage new people, reducing acronyms would help. I like this idea, but it is not something that everyone supports.

In the recent thread about the small number of replies to portfolio questions, several people said that they don't want to encourage new people unless the newcomers prove themselves first by reading extensively before posting. Dismissive, condescending comments to new members are frequent.

It's the chronic forum problem. Some people like feeling like they're in a small exclusive club. Others want to be open and welcoming. This forum skews exclusive and clubby.

poundwise
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by poundwise » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:57 am

Every company I have worked for has had its own set of acronyms. Some were unique to the company, while others were more universal.

The solution? An acronym guide. Company newbies were given the link during orientation.

For Bogleheads, maybe a wiki page is in order. It could include both finance acronyms (e.g., HELOC) and general internetz acronyms (e.g., YMMV).

And if not, of course there is always LMGTFY (http://bfy.tw/GNkj).

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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by Dead Man Walking » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:28 am

The use of ticker symbols can be confusing since ticker symbols may apply to mutual funds or exchange traded funds. The best way to communicate about funds is to use the proper name of the fund followed by the ticker symbol in parentheses. For example, Vanguard Small Cap Value Index Fund Admiral Shares (VSIAX) would be the best way to list the fund in the first reference to it. After the initial reference, the ticker symbol may be used to refer to the fund.

When I read a post that uses ticker symbols exclusively, I assume that the author is either lazy or illiterate. In either case the post is probably irrelevant to my situation. Acronyms should be used in the same way ticker symbols are used. Emojis are a different discussion.

DMW

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triceratop
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by triceratop » Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:53 am

Dead Man Walking wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:28 am
The use of ticker symbols can be confusing since ticker symbols may apply to mutual funds or exchange traded funds. The best way to communicate about funds is to use the proper name of the fund followed by the ticker symbol in parentheses. For example, Vanguard Small Cap Value Index Fund Admiral Shares (VSIAX) would be the best way to list the fund in the first reference to it. After the initial reference, the ticker symbol may be used to refer to the fund.

When I read a post that uses ticker symbols exclusively, I assume that the author is either lazy or illiterate. In either case the post is probably irrelevant to my situation. Acronyms should be used in the same way ticker symbols are used. Emojis are a different discussion.

DMW
How many 5-character long tickers do you know for ETFs? And 3-character for classic mutual fund?
"To play the stock market is to play musical chairs under the chord progression of a bid-ask spread."

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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by Sheepdog » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:47 am

Blueskies123 wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:32 pm
Agreed, ticker symbols should always be followed by their proper name.
YES....Please
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TwstdSista
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by TwstdSista » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:58 am

Sheepdog wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:47 am
Blueskies123 wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:32 pm
Agreed, ticker symbols should always be followed by their proper name.
YES....Please
and ERs.

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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by oldcomputerguy » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:19 am

triceratop wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:20 pm
I prefer acronyms. If used accurately it greatly increases the speed with which I can read posts. It takes <3 seconds to look up a ticker in a new tab and close the tab and most tickers in common to less common use are familiar to me now.
I would point out that, yes, it's easy to open another tab on a desktop browser (and I prefer in fact to work that way); it might not be as easy to navigate that process on a mobile device, which many readers seem frequently to use.
It’s taken me a lot of years, but I’ve come around to this: If you’re dumb, surround yourself with smart people. And if you’re smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you.

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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by AntsOnTheMarch » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:58 am

I’m fairly new to the forum so maybe a I can offer a fresh look at the situation for the veterans.

- Acronyms can be quite daunting—especially those specific to this forum. It’s nice that there’s a wiki but newer members wouldn’t even know to look. I only found it recently and it’s quite handy. Maybe more mention of it would help?

- Stopping and googling really disrupts my train of thought and ability to follow the thread if it’s done often enough. At some point, I’d rather just skip the thread altogether—which is a shame considering the wealth of knowledge posted here.

- That said, universal acronyms such as YMMV and FWIW, are very common and known to anyone who’s ever visited other forums, so they don’t bother me. I think those are more pet peeves for some people than actual obstacles to reading speed and comprehension.

- One last thing: I’ve gotten used to most acronyms but not ticker symbols. I’m dyslexic and there’s no way I can sort out a bunch of ticker symbols no matter how often I’ve seen them. They all start to look like gibberish and the post makes no sense to me. It takes way too much effort—switching back and forth between browser tabs—to get through posts heavy with ticker symbols to be any fun at all. So if more people wrote out the name of the fund and followed it with the symbol, that would be swell.

My 2¢.

Edit: PSA :D
https://www.acronymfinder.com/
Last edited by AntsOnTheMarch on Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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whodidntante
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by whodidntante » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:20 am

As long as we are venting, I wish more people used the term acronym correctly.

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samsoes
Posts: 868
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Re: Fewer acronyms please

Post by samsoes » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:22 am

perl wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:45 am
It's the chronic forum problem. Some people like feeling like they're in a small exclusive club. Others want to be open and welcoming. This forum skews exclusive and clubby.
Agreed. Non-intuitive acronyms are ubiquitous on this forum.

Have you ever tried to interpret something that a teenager has written, using text-speak and excessive emojis? That's like many of the posts I've read here over the years.
Last edited by samsoes on Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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