Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by Peculiar_Investor » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:38 am

AntsOnTheMarch wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:06 am
So I just let auto fill pick my words for me. Sometimes its poetry.
"Autocorrect has become my worst enema." First noticed on a forum (not this one) signature.
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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by Seasonal » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:44 am

I'll take the position that the purpose of language is to communicate and most of the mistakes noted in this thread don't have an adverse affect on the meaning of the statements in which they are used. It's a rare case when using adverse rather than averse will result in the reader not understanding what you mean. True, many of us will cringe and focus on the error, distracting us from focusing on the meaning, but we really should find a way to get over this.

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by nisiprius » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:48 am

Alex Frakt wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:37 am
mega317 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:20 pm
But language is arbitrary and fluid. If enough people do something wrong, it becomes right.
And that's how literally became its antonym.
I have a theory that eventually, over time, "Ghandi" will become the accepted spelling of the late Indian leader's name.

P.S. It was eventually corrected, but there was a fairly long period of time during which the dictionary shipped with Microsoft Word accepted wierd as a correct spelling. Worse yet, it cause a moment of bad feeling: I saw it in someone's document, pointed out the error, they said it was not neither an error and showed me (and I verified it on a other copies, it was not a case of accidentally auto-adding a misspelling to Word). At that time, I still had so much misplaced respect for Microsoft that I retracted my complaint, and opened my mind to the possibility that I was wrong. It took a careful check of some print dictionaries to restore my arrogance.
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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by Fallible » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:05 am

Seasonal wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:44 am
I'll take the position that the purpose of language is to communicate and most of the mistakes noted in this thread don't have an adverse affect on the meaning of the statements in which they are used. It's a rare case when using adverse rather than averse will result in the reader not understanding what you mean. True, many of us will cringe and focus on the error, distracting us from focusing on the meaning, but we really should find a way to get over this.
There's one way to "get over this": remembering the mistakes we make even when we do know better. Humbling.
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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by uncaD » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:25 am

roymeo wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:59 pm
If people do it wrong enough, it becomes correct.
Exactly. I get the feeling that the word "fewer" is in the process of disappearing from the English language, for example.

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by spectec » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:31 am

One of my pet peeves is the use of "podium" when one is actually referring to a "lectern". But this one is misused so often that it has almost become an accepted variant. And I still bristle when I see a company pushing their "preventative maintenance" contract.
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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by book lover » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:41 am

This reminds me of the debates that were had when the Bible was written and people who were editing a particular passage that they did not agree with would cross it out and change the wording or when the people that write dictionaries come to decide on what words should be added or subtracted.An interesting discussion.

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:45 am

I tend to gloss over composition slips but do notice syntax (sintax?) which reflects a poster's context. Much comes through in how people write; attention to detail, quantification vs rambling, organization of thoughts, presentation, and response (vs reaction . . . or defensiveness :shock: ).

IMHO
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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by livesoft » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:49 am

^I thought that just editing a thread title was sufficient. After all, many thread titles are edited by moderators already. The body of the post can be unchanged as far as I am concerned.
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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by Lynette » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:06 pm

John and me are going to town .. or John and I

It is me .. or It is I

between you and me or between you and I

In Latin, it is drummed into one that the verb to be takes the same case after it as before and usually in English (I think) prepositions are followed by the accusative (objective) case.

Usage changes over time and as language is fluid, former "mistakes" become accepted grammar.

I think one makes mistakes sometimes as one is typing rapidly on the internet and not proofreading what one writes.

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by Fallible » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:11 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:45 am
I tend to gloss over composition slips but do notice syntax (sintax?) which reflects a poster's context. Much comes through in how people write; attention to detail, quantification vs rambling, organization of thoughts, presentation, and response (vs reaction . . . or defensiveness :shock: ).

IMHO
Actionably: To respond to a query for help with the above considerations in mind, as well as sensitivity to a poster's needs, maintains a high degree of personal professionalism and mutual respect in the forum. ...
Agree. And there are examples of that professionalism and respect on the forum every day, especially when trying to understand and properly advise new posters.
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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by livesoft » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:12 pm

Lynette wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:06 pm
I think one makes mistakes sometimes as one is typing rapidly on the internet and not proofreading what one writes.
Well, that's me, but I go back and correct about 3 mistakes on average in each one of my posts. Of course, I leave others uncorrected.
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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by celia » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:26 pm

livesoft wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:12 pm
Well, that's me, but I go back and correct about 3 mistakes on average in each one of my posts. Of course, I leave others uncorrected.
I promise to not criticize the next time livesoft mis-uses adverse and averse incorrectly. In fact, I will extend that to other Bogleheads too.

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:22 pm

Fallible wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:11 pm
Sandtrap wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:45 am
I tend to gloss over composition slips but do notice syntax (sintax?) which reflects a poster's context. Much comes through in how people write; attention to detail, quantification vs rambling, organization of thoughts, presentation, and response (vs reaction . . . or defensiveness :shock: ).

IMHO
Actionably: To respond to a query for help with the above considerations in mind, as well as sensitivity to a poster's needs, maintains a high degree of personal professionalism and mutual respect in the forum. ...
Agree. And there are examples of that professionalism and respect on the forum every day, especially when trying to understand and properly advise new posters.
So true. so true.
It's going to be a wonderful 2018 for all.
thanks,
j :D

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by 2pedals » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:05 pm

Wood you like too mete me for a glass of whine in an our?

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Re: Misuse of adverse

Post by Longdog » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:10 pm

Pete12 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:54 pm
Pajamas wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:47 pm
What about this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagel_head
Lovely...
Oh man do I feel foolish. I thought that’s what this group was and couldn’t understand why there was all of this finance talk.
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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:49 pm

2pedals wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:05 pm
Wood you like too mete me for a glass of whine in an our?
Indeed.
A glass of whine shared with others inevitably tastes bittersweat.

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by PVW » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:26 pm

MrJones wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:54 pm
bottlecap wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:51 pm
I have yet to see one poster use the phrase "begs the question” correctly.
JT
Me too! This has become so bad that I see news anchors on TV use it the wrong way all the time?
Most people outside the field of formal logic and philosophy use the literal meaning of the phrase "begs the question" (i.e., to wonder why). Forcing people to use the alternate definition from the field of formal logic is illogical because this definition is arbitrary and does not follow from a literal interpretation of the words in the phrase.

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by Nicolas » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:55 pm

The word "jealous" is so often incorrectly used instead of "envious". Jealousy is the emotion you feel when you're about to lose something to someone else that you already have, like your girlfriend or boyfriend. Envy is what you feel when you want something someone else has that you never had. "Oh, you just won the lottery? I'm so jealous envious!"

Though I suppose it's perfectly acceptable now as this misuse is so widespread it's become the norm. Much like substituting "issue" which means something that's in dispute for "problem" which means something not in dispute. As in "My car wouldn't start this morning, it has issues!"

The language is changing and there's no use fighting it. My wife said you have to follow the changing speech patterns or someday you'll sound just like Chaucer (probably an exaggeration).
Last edited by Nicolas on Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by drk » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:17 pm

livesoft wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:32 pm
The moderators do a great job improving thread titles now and then. Should they change the word "adverse" to "averse" as well? If folks see "adverse" all the time, they will eventually think it is the correct word to use when it isn't, so changing it where many people see it used incorrectly would be a good thing.

Or would there be an adverse reaction to this?
It would be an amazing and awesome turn of events indeed if moderator action on the Bogleheads.org forum prevented a word's semantic drift.

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by bberris » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:10 am

If this bothers you, I can tell you the future is bleak.

My temp retirement job is scoring essay tests. I thought I knew how to do that, but the rubric is something else. We are instructed to ignore spelling and usage errors, as long as the meaning is clear. A committee of teachers decides how these achievement tests are to be scored.

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by mouses » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:12 am

PVW wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:26 pm
MrJones wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:54 pm
bottlecap wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:51 pm
I have yet to see one poster use the phrase "begs the question” correctly.
JT
Me too! This has become so bad that I see news anchors on TV use it the wrong way all the time?
Most people outside the field of formal logic and philosophy use the literal meaning of the phrase "begs the question" (i.e., to wonder why). Forcing people to use the alternate definition from the field of formal logic is illogical because this definition is arbitrary and does not follow from a literal interpretation of the words in the phrase.
I have never set foot in the field of formal logic, but I know what begs the question means.

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insurances
Last edited by mouses on Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by livesoft » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:16 am

I can see why essay tests would be scored like that. I did quite a lot of writing in the real world and there was always the chance to proofread and fix mistakes. Indeed, the idea to just get something down on paper (on silicon?) first without worrying about spelling, syntax, and grammar was very helpful in being productive. But then, one would go back and fix things. With an essay test that might be limited by time, there would be less opportunity to edit.

I know that my kids were explicitly taught the above method in school. They turned in manuscripts which were proofread by the instructor, then corrected them. Or they had proofreading / editing opportunities in class. That is, they were explicitly taught proofreading.

Here on the forum, editing is always available, so folks can go back and edit what they show us at any time.
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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by mouses » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:18 am

bberris wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:10 am
If this bothers you, I can tell you the future is bleak.

My temp retirement job is scoring essay tests. I thought I knew how to do that, but the rubric is something else. We are instructed to ignore spelling and usage errors, as long as the meaning is clear. A committee of teachers decides how these achievement tests are to be scored.
I would at least correct them, even if no points could be taken off. If that were not allowed, I think I'd resign unless I needed the pay.

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:46 am

Watty wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:20 pm
...
Personally I plan on intentionally making spelling and grammar errors so that the international posters will feel more welcome so please ignore those. :D
This is a true fact about me. Quite some time back, and ending years before I joined Bogleheads, I adopted a practice of always including one intentional, what I called, tocen mispeling.

I started it as a joke, but as things turned out it improved my writing. For a tocen mispeling really to be tocen, it meant I had to get everything else right. That was loco-motivating.

PJW

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by retiredjg » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:51 am

Loco maybe..... :D

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by Sandtrap » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:01 pm

Watty wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:20 pm
When you see a spelling or grammar error please take it just let it go.

One problem is that we can get a lot of valuable perspective from some of the international posters who may not speak English as their first or even second language.

Even if you are not correcting their post seeing corrections or threads like this can be intimidating for someone who does not speak English as their native language.

Personally I plan on intentionally making spelling and grammar errors so that the international posters will feel more welcome so please ignore those. :D
Yes. So true.
It's useful to hear the syntax of someone who has English as their second language.
In Hawaii, especially many many decades ago, everyone had an accent of some sort because of the vast cultural mix. (no majority/minority) So folks became naturally sensitive and empathetic when communicating. Words did not always have the same meaning because definitions are based on culture and base language.

Mahalo Nui Loa
A Hui Hou
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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by Fallible » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:04 pm

mouses wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:18 am
bberris wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:10 am
If this bothers you, I can tell you the future is bleak.

My temp retirement job is scoring essay tests. I thought I knew how to do that, but the rubric is something else. We are instructed to ignore spelling and usage errors, as long as the meaning is clear. A committee of teachers decides how these achievement tests are to be scored.
I would at least correct them, even if no points could be taken off. If that were not allowed, I think I'd resign unless I needed the pay.
What are these essays for? If just for the classroom, then concentrating on ability to communicate is understandable. If for outside publishing, or if punctuation, spelling, etc., are never taught, that would not be right. So what is the committee's ultimate goal here?
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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:20 pm

I am beckoning the question: what does to beg the question mean?


Major premise: To beg the question is to assume the conclusion in the major premise.

Minor premise: The conclusion assumed in the major premise is true.

Conclusion: Begging the question is a sure path to believing what I wanted to believe in the first place.


The question done been beckoned.

PJW

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:26 pm

mouses wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:18 am
...
I would at least correct them, even if no points could be taken off. If that were not allowed, I think I'd resign unless I needed the pay.
I've worked as a grader. It's a lousy job. Nobody I ever met did it unless they needed the pay.

Professor is a different animal.

Deans, too.

PJW

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by kaneohe » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:09 pm

When did you guys graduate college? Even tho I see that more and more these days,my old brain refuses to accept that.......and googling finds at least 1 person in agreement.

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by daveydoo » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:21 pm

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:46 am
...I adopted a practice of always including one intentional, what I called, tocen mispeling.
I always try to include at least one factual error, too :D
"I mean, it's one banana, Michael...what could it cost? Ten dollars?"

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by livesoft » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:31 pm

^That's always good to see if anyone is paying attention. Plus it is easy to do by leaving out a word like "not."
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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by oldzey » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:52 pm

Once you learnt good English, you ain't never gonna forget.
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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by mxs » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:35 pm

https://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2008 ... bably-not/

Ironic was famously misused by Alanis Morisette in her song, and I remember Curt (Kurt?) Loder trying to point it out in an interview. Irony and ironic are tough to use and properly understand.

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Re: Misuse of adverse

Post by boglesmind » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:23 am

triceratop wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:44 pm
Nicolas wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:38 pm

This appears to have been lifted from Mark Twain:

http://design.caltech.edu/erik/Misc/Twain_english.html
Ha! I just walked past his office the other day.

(The ambiguous pronoun reference is intentional)
Reminds me of my spouse :-) and my spouse says so as well :-)
With a nod to the click and clack tappet brothers* ...

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Re: Misuse of adverse

Post by penumbra » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:56 am

Minty wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:53 pm
In the passed, I have seen alot of misused words and phrases on this cite. Usually, I except a bazaar usage, because it does not effect me. The only time I would consider counciling a poster whom misspeaks is when they are writing about there job search or seeking career advise. In some fields, braking the rules of grammer or spelling could altar their prospects for the worst. But especially on a board as polite as this one, it is hard to brooch difficult topics and tell someone how they are suppose to write. I personally agree with Livesoft that it is better to know.

Anyways, I did a quick search, and, in a commonly used database in my field, there are over 10,000 articles using the phrase "risk averse", over 1,000 using "risk adverse" (sometimes with a hyphen) and 190 containing both phrases. So it may be too late to suppress this debatable use of the term.
Very clever!🤓

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by Bob's not my name » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:42 am

Potential employers want to know about my prior experience and previous experience, which are the best kinds of experience. (They also want to know that I have good communication skills.)

They also use the term "demonstrated experience", which reveals that they are bureaucrats stringing together words they don't understand.

The potential job will have a specific focus, which is better than a wide-ranging focus.

While during we're on this topic subject, I must and have to note and write verbally in words that a timeless classic is much better than a fleeting classic.

Speaking of classics, soon we'll all be Prometheus and Bob.

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by mptfan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:57 am

Another pet peeve of mine is the phrase "general consensus." The word consensus is defined as a general agreement, so "general consensus" is redundant.

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Re: Misuse of adverse

Post by blevine » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:55 pm

Minty wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:53 pm
In the passed, I have seen alot of misused words and phrases on this cite. Usually, I except a bazaar usage, because it does not effect me. The only time I would consider counciling a poster whom misspeaks is when they are writing about there job search or seeking career advise. In some fields, braking the rules of grammer or spelling could altar their prospects for the worst. But especially on a board as polite as this one, it is hard to brooch difficult topics and tell someone how they are suppose to write. I personally agree with Livesoft that it is better to know.

Anyways, I did a quick search, and, in a commonly used database in my field, there are over 10,000 articles using the phrase "risk averse", over 1,000 using "risk adverse" (sometimes with a hyphen) and 190 containing both phrases. So it may be too late to suppress this debatable use of the term.
You mist an opportunity. Now I am board of this topic.

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by El Greco » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:01 pm

How about inane expressions like "sooner rather than later"? Wouldn't the single word "soon" mean exactly the same thing?

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by bertilak » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:53 pm

El Greco wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:01 pm
How about inane expressions like "sooner rather than later"? Wouldn't the single word "soon" mean exactly the same thing?
More or less.
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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by TimeRunner » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:30 pm

I get burned out on posters bringing up the same old maxims, proverbs, adages, epigrams, phrases, and old saws, but to rail against it further would be like beating a dead horse, har.

Are we done here yet? :mrgreen:
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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by mortfree » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:34 pm

Costumers

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by oldzey » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:34 pm

Middle mangers
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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by protagonist » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:06 pm

The purpose of language is communication.

If what is said is interpreted as intended, the communication is successful.

I ain't kiddin' about this.

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Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by MrJones » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:48 pm

protagonist wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:06 pm
The purpose of language is communication.

If what is said is interpreted as intended, the communication is successful.

I ain't kiddin' about this.
You may be missing a big part of the picture.

mptfan
Posts: 4489
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:58 am

Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by mptfan » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:01 pm

For all intensive purposes. In a week's time.

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Wildebeest
Posts: 1126
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:36 pm

Re: Misuse of adverse when averse was meant

Post by Wildebeest » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:24 pm

Where I was brought up, everybody could spell and if you could not, it was a big deal.

I get a kick out of the spelling bees. So you get a prize if you can spell!
The Golden Rule: One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.

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FrugalInvestor
Posts: 4720
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:20 am

Re: Misuse of adverse

Post by FrugalInvestor » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:44 pm

Pete12 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:46 pm
I go nuts when folks refer to this forum as the “Boggleheads” or the “Bogelheads” ... I mean come on people!!!
It boggles my mind every time I see it. :confused
IGNORE the noise! | Our life is frittered away by detail... simplify, simplify. - Henry David Thoreau

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