Bogleheads is back!!!

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GoldenFinch
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by GoldenFinch » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:24 pm

Yay! I feel better now. I missed you guys....

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:29 pm

Thank god, I was going through withdrawal symptoms.......checking to see if it was up and running, no not up and running - go bag some leaves, check again, nope, go do some paperwork, go check, nope, still not running........ :o :shock: Houston....we have a problem.......... :annoyed

Hello Houston, Bogleheads is back!!! :sharebeer
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Re: No, nothing's missing! Try "3 days!"

Post by LadyGeek » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:40 pm

I merged nisiprius' post into here (Page 1), which is a tutorial on how to use the home page:
nisiprius wrote:No, the forum isn't missing all the old threads!

The default landing page shows the new posts in the last day. But the forum was down for over a day, so the default view shows only posts made since the forum came back up. To check up on the threads you were following before the forum went down, try clicking on the "Days: 1 2 3" digit, which is a link that shows you the last three days' worth of postings.

Image
Notice the bold blue links at the top of the listing. Click on each link to sort by that column.
# Replies - Subforum (view list) - Topic Title First (time, by ) Latest (time, by)
You can display posts for up to 3 days, sorted by the selected column.
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by ruralavalon » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:40 pm

I am glad you're back :)
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by pennstater2005 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:42 pm

I went outside. It was bright.
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by nedsaid » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:45 pm

Good to see that the Bogleheads forum is up and running again. Thanks Mel for notifying us on Facebook what the issue was.
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by TravelGeek » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:05 pm

saltycaper wrote:Why is the site reliant on a single ISP? I would think a site as busy as this one would be located at a facility with multiple network providers. An outage at Comcast may explain the reason the site was offline, but the site being offline is not Comcast's "fault", as such situations should be expected. The "fault" for recent outages continues to be in the lack of redundancy. I assume this is a monetary issue.
I don't know why the site is relying on a single ISP. Your final sentence is as good a guess I can come up with.

But as far as I can tell, Bogleheads.org is not a commercial business that depends on having an uptime of 99.9999% and cater to all eventualities. I think most of us survived the weekend outage without much of a problem and the site presumably didn't lose any money. Since outages like the one experienced here are apparently rare, I am not sure if it would be worthwhile spending $xxx on redundant network access if the site is hosted "at home" (which presumably also has its good reasons) vs at a co-location site with redundancy.

And now if you'll excuse me, I have a contribution check to write :)

viewtopic.php?t=94337

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by bhtomj » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:09 pm

Remember the Sun Microsystems tagline: "The network is the computer".

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by Mudpuppy » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:47 pm

saltycaper wrote:Why is the site reliant on a single ISP? I would think a site as busy as this one would be located at a facility with multiple network providers. An outage at Comcast may explain the reason the site was offline, but the site being offline is not Comcast's "fault", as such situations should be expected. The "fault" for recent outages continues to be in the lack of redundancy. I assume this is a monetary issue.
Most sites as busy as this one are generating revenue off the user-base, particularly in the form of advertisements, which would provide them the income stream to afford the luxury of having multiple redundant upstream links. Such a service is very expensive.

This place doesn't generate revenue off the user-base. It runs on donations from users, Amazon referral fees, and the goodwill of its founders with respects to their time and money. That is not exactly the most stable of revenue streams, so expensive services may not be justified from the budget. Personally, I find this approach, and the occasional outages that comes with it, preferable to monetizing the user-base.

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by tdub » Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:07 pm

Thanks to those responsible for bringing the forum back online and explaining that the problem was a network outage.

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by pascal » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:03 pm

Fellow bogleheads,

I am happy to report that in the time the website was down, the markets were also down and I've not committed any rash decisions. :sharebeer
What a relief to see my folks back again!
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by pondering » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:27 pm

I would recommend updating twitter and facebook for any outage that is expected to run more than a few hours.
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by LeeMKE » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:45 pm

+1 Pondering

I'm new enough I had no idea about the Morningstar sight. Facebook is where I headed for information, which was posted some days after the outage.
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by sco » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:52 pm

Why are you running this on an individual server, instead of hosted in an environment with multiple ISP's and all the resiliency that you would want? There is no way physically owning the server is cheaper.

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by Mudpuppy » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:24 pm

sco wrote:Why are you running this on an individual server, instead of hosted in an environment with multiple ISP's and all the resiliency that you would want? There is no way physically owning the server is cheaper.
Servers are cheap these days. Really, I'm flabbergasted every time I authorize the purchase of a new one at work that so little money is buying so much computing power.

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by Helvetica » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:32 pm

mingstar wrote:The icing on the cake is that when Comcast restored our service, they also CHANGED OUR STATIC IP ADDRESS BLOCK. That made for an interesting hour or so with the tech saying "service is fine" and my saying "service is down." We were both correct. When I began quoting IP addresses, the tech said "those are not the numbers I'm seeing on your account."
Incompetence from Comcast? No way!

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by tibbitts » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:38 pm

sco wrote:Why are you running this on an individual server, instead of hosted in an environment with multiple ISP's and all the resiliency that you would want? There is no way physically owning the server is cheaper.
This has been asked and answered multiple times. Generally, higher levels of redundancy come with higher costs. I frequent another similarly-organized site that runs on a dozen or so of its own physical servers - ultimately, the reason comes down to the fact that the operators choose to run it that way.

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by Helvetica » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:52 pm

sco wrote:Why are you running this on an individual server, instead of hosted in an environment with multiple ISP's and all the resiliency that you would want? There is no way physically owning the server is cheaper.
I am actually curious about this too. There are many cost-effective, but still good, dedicated server providers. I don't have all the facts here, but I'd be really surprised if owning the hardware, operating it (which includes the cost of power and cooling), and connecting it to a business-class Comcast cable connection, is actually cheaper than renting it from a good dedicated provider. Such providers aren't immune to outages, but a 48 hour outage would be *really* rare and unlikely with a quality provider.

Colocating your owned hardware in a DC is also an option, but at a small scale, renting a dedicated server usually makes more financial sense.

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by Mudpuppy » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:19 am

Helvetica wrote:
sco wrote:Why are you running this on an individual server, instead of hosted in an environment with multiple ISP's and all the resiliency that you would want? There is no way physically owning the server is cheaper.
I am actually curious about this too. There are many cost-effective, but still good, dedicated server providers. I don't have all the facts here, but I'd be really surprised if owning the hardware, operating it (which includes the cost of power and cooling), and connecting it to a business-class Comcast cable connection, is actually cheaper than renting it from a good dedicated provider. Such providers aren't immune to outages, but a 48 hour outage would be *really* rare and unlikely with a quality provider.

Colocating your owned hardware in a DC is also an option, but at a small scale, renting a dedicated server usually makes more financial sense.
It's not like mingstar is hosting the server in his living room. He's referred to the location multiple times as a co-location facility that hosts other servers besides the forum. It just happens to be a facility without multiple uplinks (or the cost of such a service at that facility is cost-prohibitive for the forum).

He's also tried out web hosting providers in the distant past and they could not keep up with the server traffic back then. The forum kept running into resource limitations and bounced around several different hosting sites without much luck. That's when the forum moved to its own dedicated server hosted at a co-location facility.

The traffic now is much, much higher. I believe the figure was somewhere around 60,000-70,000 unique visitors per day. Finding a hosting facility that would provide both robust enough servers for that level of traffic and multiple uplinks would be far more expensive than any "get hosting for only $9.95 a month!" sort of plans. We're talking on the order of several hundred to several thousand per month for this level of network traffic and resource utilization.

So please cease with the backseat sys admining. Unless you can offer such a hosting service to the forum for a discount, it's not really productive.

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by pondering » Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:19 am

I'd require much more technical detail than is in this thread to know if an alternative hosting method would make economic and technical sense.

Is that information available?
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by Dan999 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:43 am

Thanks to all who manage this site. I really missed it and I am glad it is back.
Dan999

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by #Cruncher » Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:43 am

Taylor Larimore in [url=https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3085521#p3085521]this post[/url] wrote:The Boglehead forum server is located in Miami, Florida. Yesterday, LadyGeek reported on the Morningstar Boglehead Forum:
To the software crowd, which will help explain what's going on: traceroute - Ethernet packets en route to the server are stopped by Comcast in Marietta GA. There's no path to Florida after that point.
(underline added)
Wow! Is the internet really this vulnerable to a failure at a single point? I'd always assumed it looked something like this:
Image
With these types of connections the routers on the internet can seek out an alternate path when any node fails.

But it appears it really looks more like this -- at least for Comcast in the Southeast!
Image
With this type of connection if the center node fails, there is no alternate path.

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by tibbitts » Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:54 am

As in many fields, when it comes to IT there can be too many cooks in the kitchen, and these threads that occur after every outage usually degenerate to that point pretty quickly.

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by Mudpuppy » Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:46 am

#Cruncher wrote:
Taylor Larimore in [url=https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3085521#p3085521]this post[/url] wrote:The Boglehead forum server is located in Miami, Florida. Yesterday, LadyGeek reported on the Morningstar Boglehead Forum:
To the software crowd, which will help explain what's going on: traceroute - Ethernet packets en route to the server are stopped by Comcast in Marietta GA. There's no path to Florida after that point.
(underline added)
Wow! Is the internet really this vulnerable to a failure at a single point? I'd always assumed it looked something like this:
Image
With these types of connections the routers on the internet can seek out an alternate path when any node fails.
Veering off-topic here.... but for the most part, the connections between autonomous systems resemble this graph. There are often, but not always, multiple paths between autonomous systems. The connections between autonomous systems are what is defined by the border gateway protocol (BGP) portion of the network layer. This network of connections between autonomous systems is often called the IP subnet. It's why a Time Warner customer can view this forum even though this forum is hosted on Comcast.

The connections WITHIN an autonomous system are not always so redundant and this would be a case of an interior routing protocol (inside Comcast). The most popular interior routing protocol is set up in a backbone configuration. Some routers (or maybe only one router) within the backbone connects to the IP subnet and the areas within the autonomous system are hooked up to the backbone. The areas only have to be hooked up to one point in the backbone (although the protocol does support hooking into multiple points in the backbone). So if there is only one link between the area and the backbone and/or one link between the backbone and the IP subnet and that link fails, then the whole area is cut off from the Internet.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's how Comcast ran things internally. It's far cheaper to set up, at the risk of major outages when a single point of failure ends up failing.

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by Helvetica » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:33 pm

Mudpuppy wrote:It's not like mingstar is hosting the server in his living room. He's referred to the location multiple times as a co-location facility that hosts other servers besides the forum. It just happens to be a facility without multiple uplinks (or the cost of such a service at that facility is cost-prohibitive for the forum).
OK, that makes more sense than the setup I had in mind (though a cable connection in this environment is still somewhat unusual).
Mudpuppy wrote:He's also tried out web hosting providers in the distant past and they could not keep up with the server traffic back then. The forum kept running into resource limitations and bounced around several different hosting sites without much luck. That's when the forum moved to its own dedicated server hosted at a co-location facility.

The traffic now is much, much higher. I believe the figure was somewhere around 60,000-70,000 unique visitors per day. Finding a hosting facility that would provide both robust enough servers for that level of traffic and multiple uplinks would be far more expensive than any "get hosting for only $9.95 a month!" sort of plans. We're talking on the order of several hundred to several thousand per month for this level of network traffic and resource utilization.
Of course I am not referring to shared hosting plans, which would obviously be inadequate for a forum of this size.
pondering wrote:I'd require much more technical detail than is in this thread to know if an alternative hosting method would make economic and technical sense.
Yes, so would I. That's what I alluded to when I said "I don't have all the facts here." I'm speaking in generalities.

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by jpelder » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:59 pm

LadyGeek wrote:To be very clear on what happened, this was a widespread network outage that is 100% blamed on Comcast - the ISP feeding the server. There was nothing anyone could do until service was restored.

The server is fine.
Blaming Comcast is always a smart move. Glad the server is still in good shape

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by sco » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:14 pm

Didn't mean to start a Tiff about it.

It is something that should be considered and I was curious about it. I'm surprised is all, if the traffic really is really that high. It's also odd that a co-lo facility would rely upon a single ISP, especially a cable provider.

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by Helvetica » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:35 pm

sco wrote:It is something that should be considered and I was curious about it. I'm surprised is all, if the traffic really is really that high. It's also odd that a co-lo facility would rely upon a single ISP, especially a cable provider.
A colocation customer usually has to make their own arrangements for network connectivity. I'm unsure what facility this site uses, but there are probably several carriers on-net that customers can choose from (and mix, if they have the budget and technical capabilities). Many facilities also operate their own blended network and sell that access to customers.

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by sco » Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:43 pm

Helvetica wrote:
sco wrote:It is something that should be considered and I was curious about it. I'm surprised is all, if the traffic really is really that high. It's also odd that a co-lo facility would rely upon a single ISP, especially a cable provider.
A colocation customer usually has to make their own arrangements for network connectivity. I'm unsure what facility this site uses, but there are probably several carriers on-net that customers can choose from (and mix, if they have the budget and technical capabilities). Many facilities also operate their own blended network and sell that access to customers.
Yes, I am well aware :)

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by Mel Lindauer » Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:49 pm

I guess the obvious question is "When was the last time you donated to help support the forum?"
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by saltycaper » Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:30 pm

The question some posters seem to have, based on my interpretations of previous threads, is, What is the budget of the forum and how is the money spent? Many members happily contribute regardless, but some might find the solicitation for donations without any transparency of income/expenses extremely off-putting, especially because those who give the most time and who make this a site worth visiting--a select group of posters and moderators--are uncompensated (AFAIK).
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Taylor Larimore
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Opening the books ?

Post by Taylor Larimore » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:43 pm

saltycaper wrote:The question some posters seem to have, based on my interpretations of previous threads, is, What is the budget of the forum and how is the money spent? Many members happily contribute regardless, but some might find the solicitation for donations without any transparency of income/expenses extremely off-putting, especially because those who give the most time and who make this a site worth visiting--a select group of posters and moderators--are uncompensated (AFAIK).
saltycaper:

I have been with this forum since almost its beginning. It was started by two very smart and generous Bogleheads, Alex Frakt and Larry Auton because the Morningstar Vanguard Diehard forum became klutzy and poorly monitored.

I have no idea what the Boglehead financial costs and income are. Alex and Larry accept no advertising so we must assume that without our contributions these two generous owners will lose money.

I am happy to donate without knowing their profit or loss (probably a loss).

Best wishes.
Taylor
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by sco » Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:47 am

Mel Lindauer wrote:I guess the obvious question is "When was the last time you donated to help support the forum?"
Is it running on a 286 in the basement, or is it hosted at some [substandard - moderator prudent] place that could use an upgrade? I do donate to several forums, not yet this one. I thought it was a pretty simple question initially?

The reason that I asked is that this forum is down more than any forum other I frequent, so if funds are required it is just a simple inquiry as to how it is ran. Are funds the problem? Or what exactly? You never really know the expertise of the people running these places. So is money or expertise required? or is something else in effect that isn't readily apparent?

This is a very active sitebut at least for posting, hardly the most active that I visit. Of course, it is hard to gauge web reads, caching, etc on a site..

The top website i visit, that is down on a more than weekly visit, much more than this site (especially this time of year), is actually contracted by the FBI...$$$ spent doesn't equate to quality, as we all well know on this particular forum..

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Re: Opening the books ?

Post by saltycaper » Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:33 am

Taylor Larimore wrote:
I have been with this forum since almost its beginning. It was started by two very smart and generous Bogleheads, Alex Frakt and Larry Auton because the Morningstar Vanguard Diehard forum became klutzy and poorly monitored.

I have no idea what the Boglehead financial costs and income are. Alex and Larry accept no advertising so we must assume that without our contributions these two generous owners will lose money.

I am happy to donate without knowing their profit or loss (probably a loss).

Best wishes.
Taylor
Taylor: Your generosity comes as no surprise.

If my memory of old posts is correct, at one time, operating costs were listed somewhere on the site, and Alex alluded there was a net profit, though certainly that could change. A little more transparency in this area might entice more people to give. (Of course, it could have the opposite effect. I don't know.) Hopefully some day the forum will be part of the Bogle Center or other official non-profit with an annual report for members to further build the sense of community.
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by pondering » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:12 am

The monitor Bogleheads (https://www.bogleheads.org/) is back UP (HTTP 200 - OK) (It was down for 6 hours, 18 minutes and 7 seconds).

It looks like it was site wide. Was it planned?
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by LadyGeek » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:19 am

It was unplanned. mingstar (site owner and server admin) is working on it.
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by oldcomputerguy » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:31 am

For what help it may be, I was seeing an “SSL protocol error” message during the outage.
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by tibbitts » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:42 am

sco wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:52 pm
Why are you running this on an individual server, instead of hosted in an environment with multiple ISP's and all the resiliency that you would want? There is no way physically owning the server is cheaper.
As has been the case in the past, this unscheduled website downtime was an intentional test to see who will post the most ridiculous comments. The test works perfectly every time! Network and server reliability might never reach 100%, so it's good to know there are some things we can always count on. :happy

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by Helo80 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:46 am

When BH went down, I got nervous that the bottom fell out and sold everything into crypto. Help!?! /s

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by LadyGeek » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:47 am

Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by VictoriaF » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:25 pm

Thank you, Mingstar and LadyGeek! The Bogleheads Forum is the most reliable service on the web,

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by LadyGeek » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:35 pm

You're welcome. From mingstar's post: Subject: SERVER OFFLINE at 11 AM Eastern [16:00 UTC] for maintenance update
mingstar wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:33 pm
We updated the site's version of PHP to the latest supported version and, while we still see a few issues, it seems to be better than it was before.

We're going to "watch it" for a little while and may make one more change but we won't do that before tonight.

Larry
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by Mudpuppy » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:23 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:42 am
sco wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:52 pm
Why are you running this on an individual server, instead of hosted in an environment with multiple ISP's and all the resiliency that you would want? There is no way physically owning the server is cheaper.
As has been the case in the past, this unscheduled website downtime was an intentional test to see who will post the most ridiculous comments. The test works perfectly every time! Network and server reliability might never reach 100%, so it's good to know there are some things we can always count on. :happy
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by pennstater2005 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:45 pm

I went outside and drank a beer. Then I checked "is it down" website. Then I had another beer. Sitting by the smoker now.
“If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of car payments.” – Earl Wilson

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randomizer
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by randomizer » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:47 pm

Always sad when the forum is down.
75:25 AA / Expected retirement: 2097

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cfs
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by cfs » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:44 pm

When unable to open BH website I take a look at the Bogleheads® Unite forum in M* to double check --- and there I see the note about the outage and restoration, this works for me. Muchas gracias por leer ~cfs~
~ Member of the Active Retired Force since 2014 ~

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dratkinson
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Planned outage... and site restoration.

Post by dratkinson » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:44 pm

I'm subscribed to this topic and knew site was back... before I knew of the planned outage. (Didn't see original notice.)

Suggestion. Could this topic be retitled and used to announce "Planned outage... and site restoration."? In this way subscribers would see the "planned outage" notice.
d.r.a, not dr.a. | I'm a novice investor, you are forewarned.

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LadyGeek
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by LadyGeek » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:48 pm

I always start a new thread to announce a planned outage. The new thread is made as a global "sticky", meaning it will show up at the top of every forum simultaneously. You shouldn't have any problems to see the announcement.
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dratkinson
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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by dratkinson » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:06 pm

LadyGeek wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:48 pm
I always start a new thread to announce a planned outage. The new thread is made as a global "sticky", meaning it will show up at the top of every forum simultaneously. You shouldn't have any problems to see the announcement.
Ah! that's my problem. I've been starting at bogleheads.org and using its topic list that indexes all forums. The recent change that incorporated the "unread" starting-point feature makes it an easy scrolling homepage.


Idea. Would it be possible, the next time bogleheads.org is updated, to echo temporary global sticky announcements there too?


Idea. I've noticed the "teardrops and tiny travel trailer" website (Powered by phpBB®) includes a changing "Latest news: " notice in the masthead. I don't know if the changing notice is a forum feature that was turned on, or was added by site admin.
--Homepage: http://tnttt.com/
--Forum index: http://tnttt.com/viewforum.php?f=2
--Locked sticky: http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=57791
--Open topic: http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=70037

Is it possible to turn on a forum feature and echo the existence of a temporary global sticky announcement in the bogleheads.org/forum masthead?


Thank you for your good work.
d.r.a, not dr.a. | I'm a novice investor, you are forewarned.

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Re: Bogleheads is back!!!

Post by Mudpuppy » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:24 pm

It's highly likely that TNTTT is using a phpBB mod/add-on to get the masthead to change. I don't think that is a default feature.

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