US -> UK Move - HSA Account Strategy

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asteroidnix
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US -> UK Move - HSA Account Strategy

Post by asteroidnix »

[2021 thread bumped in 2024 --admin LadyGeek]

Hi folks

I am going to be relocating back to the UK this year. I've been trying to get my US accounts in order before I move back and become Non Resident. For my strategy on IRA/401K, see viewtopic.php?f=22&t=346805. I am now now looking at my HSA account.

I put in the full amount into my HSA each year I've been in the US. By investing in S&P 500, it has grown nicely, around ~30k.

There are a couple of options here I see:

1. Keep the account open in the US, use for qualified medical expenses in the UK, with long term view of using it as a Traditional IRA when I hit 65.
2. Sell up the account now before I leave, making a large non qualified distribution.
3. Withdraw the account over next couple of years when Non Resident, making non qualified distributions, maximizing for tax efficiency.

For 1), I know the UK doesn't treat the HSA as a pension, or protected under the UK/US Tax Treaty. It would be seen as an overseas investment account without any tax benefits. For this reason, I would need to ensure the funds I am invested in are HMRC Reporting. I likely plan to roll my HSA into Fidelity before I leave. I've confirmed with Fidelity that they will allow NRAs to maintain an HSA if opened while still resident and qualifying for HSA. I plan to "sell, buy" within the HSA while still US resident as it will reset any UK cost basis.

For 2), I believe I would pay a 20% penalty and it will be added to my taxable income for which I am naturally liable for. This could actually push me up into the next tax bracket.

3) is the more interesting case. I was initially thinking of resetting the UK cost basis by moving everything into money market before I leave. Then, over the next two years or so while NRA, make non qualified distributions of the HSA, ensuring I stay below the 10% or 12% US tax bracket. No tax would be liable to HMRC (cost basis reset due to sell/buy in money market). In the US, I would pay 10%/12% income tax + 20% HSA early withdraw penalty. Looking into this more, I came across this article:

https://hodgen.com/taxation-msas-hsas-expatriation/

The gist of the author here is that HSAs are treated with the same rules as Traditional IRA Withdraws for NRAs (the default case where there isn't a tax treaty with the opposite party). HSA withdraws are US income. The tricky part is that the contribution amount (from my pay check over the years) should be taxed as effectively connected income at US tax rates (10%, 12% etc). However, the author is saying that the investment portion (interest, dividends, capital gains) should technically be taxed at the higher 30% flat rate on Form 1040NR, Schedule NEC. The author is suggesting to treat everything as effectively connected due to simplicity and the belief any gains would be small. In my case, they are sizable.

This creates a compliance burden by needing to reverse engineer the distribution % from contribution vs gains. My HSA custodian changed over the years and I am not sure I have complete records. Is this really what folks need to do when doing Traditional IRA withdraws if there's no tax treaty? Does anyone know if the gains here are only when NRA (and hence not connected to US activity)? Like, the gains accrued prior to becoming NRA would still be counted as fully effectively connected income? If that was the case, moving to money market before I leave may be a way to clean up the reporting burden?

I am on the fence of what to do here. I was initially thinking 1) as it's simplicity. While there is NHS, I am sure it could be used for any private procedures. Also, the option to use as Traditional IRA when I turn 65 - though same compliance burden as 3) then no doubt. 2) feels the easiest, but would effectively wipe out 50% of the account. It may though be the right decision so not to get into a complicated compliance issues which could be prone to error. Especially given the amount is 30k and not like 300k. Maybe not worth the bother. I would much prefer to invest in UK Stock & ISAs.

Any thoughts here would be welcome! I know this is rather specialized and more niche. I may consider getting some professional advice on this but given how obscure this is, not sure how easy it will be to find someone useful.
inverter
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Re: US -> UK Move - HSA Account Strategy

Post by inverter »

What about 4) do nothing and let it grow? Am I missing something?
Topic Author
asteroidnix
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Re: US -> UK Move - HSA Account Strategy

Post by asteroidnix »

Circling back to this - sorry, I haven't been visiting the forum.

As a follow up, for 3), I paid for some excruciatingly expensive advice from someone who specialises in international issues for US folks. Their position largely echoed the hodgen article that this is an grey area with no clear IRS advice and that it would be perfectly reasonable position to treat everything as effectively connected income, taxed at graduated rates.

For 4), I guess I am little weary paying UK tax on dividends for years for something which is hard to access: qualified medical expenses, > 65 or paying probably ~60% tax (early withdraw fee + 40% UK tax with US tax credit). I am already overbalanced on sheltered US retirement accounts. If there wasn't the NHS, it may be more appealing given I could spend the growing large balances prior to 65 on qualified medical expenses. Not sure if this is faulty reasoning.
TedSwippet
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Re: US -> UK Move - HSA Account Strategy

Post by TedSwippet »

asteroidnix wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:37 am As a follow up, for 3), I paid for some excruciatingly expensive advice from someone who specialises in international issues for US folks. Their position largely echoed the hodgen article that this is an grey area with no clear IRS advice and that it would be perfectly reasonable position to treat everything as effectively connected income, taxed at graduated rates.
And what's the betting that the someone who provided you this advice did little more than a web search, followed by parroting the one relevant article they found? :-(

Your use of 'long term' in option 1 suggests you are some years/decades away from reaching age 65, in which case option 3 seems the one to choose. It's the one I would probably choose if in the same situation. The 20% penalty is deeply annoying though (particularly compared to the 10% for IRAs), and even if you stick to the 10/15% US brackets then the 30/35% effective tax drag potentially exceeds the tax saved on contributions.

Perhaps less punitive if you lived in a high-tax state (except CA and NJ, apparently) while contributing. Even so. The message here for future readers is probably a suggestion to avoid HSAs, MSAs and the like if you don't expect to live permanently in the US.
asteroidnix wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:37 am For 4), I guess I am little weary paying UK tax on dividends for years for something which is hard to access: qualified medical expenses, > 65 or paying probably ~60% tax (early withdraw fee + 40% UK tax with US tax credit). I am already overbalanced on sheltered US retirement accounts. If there wasn't the NHS, it may be more appealing given I could spend the growing large balances prior to 65 on qualified medical expenses. Not sure if this is faulty reasoning.
Your estimate of UK tax is probably pessimistic, if you're assuming (reasonably) that the UK would treat this as a plain unwrapped account. Capital gains tax is 20% max (on shares), and dividend tax is 32.5% max. And you could sell-and-repurchase to defuse the major part of this before leaving the US anyway, although admittedly this isn't quite "do nothing and let it grow".

Not "faulty" reasoning then, but maybe just a bit less bad than imagined?
Topic Author
asteroidnix
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Re: US -> UK Move - HSA Account Strategy

Post by asteroidnix »

TedSwippet wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 3:35 am
asteroidnix wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:37 am As a follow up, for 3), I paid for some excruciatingly expensive advice from someone who specialises in international issues for US folks. Their position largely echoed the hodgen article that this is an grey area with no clear IRS advice and that it would be perfectly reasonable position to treat everything as effectively connected income, taxed at graduated rates.
And what's the betting that the someone who provided you this advice did little more than a web search, followed by parroting the one relevant article they found? :-(

Your use of 'long term' in option 1 suggests you are some years/decades away from reaching age 65, in which case option 3 seems the one to choose. It's the one I would probably choose if in the same situation. The 20% penalty is deeply annoying though (particularly compared to the 10% for IRAs), and even if you stick to the 10/15% US brackets then the 30/35% effective tax drag potentially exceeds the tax saved on contributions.

Perhaps less punitive if you lived in a high-tax state (except CA and NJ, apparently) while contributing. Even so. The message here for future readers is probably a suggestion to avoid HSAs, MSAs and the like if you don't expect to live permanently in the US.
asteroidnix wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:37 am For 4), I guess I am little weary paying UK tax on dividends for years for something which is hard to access: qualified medical expenses, > 65 or paying probably ~60% tax (early withdraw fee + 40% UK tax with US tax credit). I am already overbalanced on sheltered US retirement accounts. If there wasn't the NHS, it may be more appealing given I could spend the growing large balances prior to 65 on qualified medical expenses. Not sure if this is faulty reasoning.
Your estimate of UK tax is probably pessimistic, if you're assuming (reasonably) that the UK would treat this as a plain unwrapped account. Capital gains tax is 20% max (on shares), and dividend tax is 32.5% max. And you could sell-and-repurchase to defuse the major part of this before leaving the US anyway, although admittedly this isn't quite "do nothing and let it grow".

Not "faulty" reasoning then, but maybe just a bit less bad than imagined?
Cheers. I am in early 30s. Yeah, I realised this since posting, thinking through. The Uk tax will only be on the **gains** and not the principal. Assuming UK Reporting Funds, CGT rate as you say. In contrast, US will be on the entirety. Not sure how this would play with foreign tax credit on UK return, may need to prorate.

Rethinking 1) is that I could just see this as part of my (early) retirement strategy. I am worried about locking away to 65, but there are ways to access my Roth IRAs/401K before 59.5. I plan to do the 401k->Roth IRA rollover every year at 12% tax bracket - what you did I believe. Then, I can use the Roths to fund early retirement up until I can withdraw HSA as Traditional IRA and UK pension. I am still anxious about locking so much money away in a foreign country though. Decisions Decisions.

As an aside, I see there are talks about locking down the Roth conversations, so I should probably hurry up once NRA.
Topic Author
asteroidnix
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Re: US -> UK Move - HSA Account Strategy

Post by asteroidnix »

Re the advice. Definitely a possibility. Saying that, I've been using this person for a number of years and had good experiences. Extremely knowledgable, thorough, and analytical. They admitted their research wasn't definitive but said they would have no issue taking the position personally. Nevertheless, somewhat unnerving stuff like this is a grey area. Could probably get a private ruling letter but $$$.
TedSwippet
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Re: US -> UK Move - HSA Account Strategy

Post by TedSwippet »

asteroidnix wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:18 am The Uk tax will only be on the **gains** and not the principal. Assuming UK Reporting Funds, CGT rate as you say. In contrast, US will be on the entirety. Not sure how this would play with foreign tax credit on UK return, may need to prorate.
I'm not sure either. This is a US pre-tax account being treated by the UK as a post-tax one. The treaty offers nothing, as this isn't a pension or other retirement savings account. Consequently, it seems tricky to find any way to obtain foreign tax credits from one country or the other, without which you face pure double-tax. Article 24 is the 'catch-all' here, but didn't look promising to me (on a quick glance).
asteroidnix wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:18 am Rethinking 1) is that I could just see this as part of my (early) retirement strategy. I am worried about locking away to 65, but there are ways to access my Roth IRAs/401K before 59.5. I plan to do the 401k->Roth IRA rollover every year at 12% tax bracket - what you did I believe. Then, I can use the Roths to fund early retirement up until I can withdraw HSA as Traditional IRA and UK pension. I am still anxious about locking so much money away in a foreign country though. Decisions Decisions.
As above though, I can't see how holding it will avoid double-tax, due to timing. The UK will (we think) tax the gains as they accrue annually, and the US will tax withdrawals fully, since it views the account as pre-tax. The US won't credit UK tax paid years or decades earlier, and you cannot go back in time and get UK credit for US tax that eventually becomes due. Even though an HSA operates as if an IRA after age 65, neither the US nor the UK will accord it treaty benefits.

And either way, money held hostage in a foreign country is always more open to political risk than money in a country in which you get a vote. In general, the less you rely on your US accounts once no longer a US resident (and the less you keep in those accounts), the better.
asteroidnix wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:18 am As an aside, I see there are talks about locking down the Roth conversations, so I should probably hurry up once NRA.
I've not seen anything worrying on this recently. Can you elaborate?
asteroidnix wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:28 am Re the advice. Definitely a possibility. Saying that, I've been using this person for a number of years and had good experiences. Extremely knowledgable, thorough, and analytical. They admitted their research wasn't definitive but said they would have no issue taking the position personally. Nevertheless, somewhat unnerving stuff like this is a grey area. Could probably get a private ruling letter but $$$.
Okay. Perhaps I was over-flippant in my initial assessment. Good to hear that you've someone you can trust on your side here.

As for the PLR, not cheap unfortunately. My general approach these days is to take an 'assertive' stance with the IRS over grey areas, and deal with it only if they object. Hasn't happened yet (though that doesn't mean it won't, ever). US tax is sufficiently complex that the IRS doesn't understand its murky corners any better than the rest of us.
Topic Author
asteroidnix
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Re: US -> UK Move - HSA Account Strategy

Post by asteroidnix »

TedSwippet wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:33 am
asteroidnix wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:18 am As an aside, I see there are talks about locking down the Roth conversations, so I should probably hurry up once NRA.
I've not seen anything worrying on this recently. Can you elaborate?
https://www.propublica.org/article/camp ... ica-report
https://www.propublica.org/article/lord ... piggy-bank

This is fall out from Peter Thiel putting 5 billion into his Roth IRA :) While the initial focus was on restricting putting private options into Roth IRAs, seems they want to cover conversions. This is all early days still, but more of a political will this time perhaps.
TedSwippet
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Re: US -> UK Move - HSA Account Strategy

Post by TedSwippet »

asteroidnix wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 11:46 am This is fall out from Peter Thiel putting 5 billion into his Roth IRA :) While the initial focus was on restricting putting private options into Roth IRAs, seems they want to cover conversions. This is all early days still, but more of a political will this time perhaps.
Ah, right. Not going to worry just yet. My own IRA is a tad more modest than Thiel's.
Topic Author
asteroidnix
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Re: US -> UK Move - HSA Account Strategy

Post by asteroidnix »

Update

I've had a rather nasty surprise with my HSA held at Fidelity now I am living back in the UK. I previously talked to them last summer. The gist I got was it would be the same as brokerage/IRA - no new mutual funds.

I got a letter about account restrictions in November from them. It said I could no longer purchase any new positions with the HSA. Not ideal, but ok. I was checking my account history and I noticed that I had a dividend payout which hadn't settled since December. I talked to them and the account restrictions apply to dividends too. The dividends won't even settle in cash. They will hold an IOU on my account for when I return to the US and update the address. I wonder if I owe UK taxes on this despite not receiving the dividends.

I am curious why Fidelity has these restrictions on HSA for UK holders but not other accounts. May just be a reflection of the fact HSA is a new account type at Fidelity and their policies for handling overseas accounts for this account type are defensive by default.

This is a perfect example of the sort of messiness of maintaining US accounts abroad.
TedSwippet
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Re: US -> UK Move - HSA Account Strategy

Post by TedSwippet »

asteroidnix wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:49 pm ... I noticed that I had a dividend payout which hadn't settled since December. I talked to them and the account restrictions apply to dividends too. The dividends won't even settle in cash. They will hold an IOU on my account for when I return to the US and update the address.
Hmm. Have they said what they mean by "return to the US"? This sounds distinctly sinister. You're a UK citizen with no longer any rights to US residence, so how would you "return to the US" exactly? Some invented requirement to actually become a US resident again in future? Would Fidelity prevent you from withdrawing the proceeds of any unit or fund sales as well until you do?
asteroidnix wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:49 pmI wonder if I owe UK taxes on this despite not receiving the dividends.
Good question. No idea.
asteroidnix wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:49 pm This is a perfect example of the sort of messiness of maintaining US accounts abroad.
Indeed.
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asteroidnix
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Re: US -> UK Move - HSA Account Strategy

Post by asteroidnix »

TedSwippet wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:53 pm Hmm. Have they said what they mean by "return to the US"? This sounds distinctly sinister. You're a UK citizen with no longer any rights to US residence, so how would you "return to the US" exactly? Some invented requirement to actually become a US resident again in future? Would Fidelity prevent you from withdrawing the proceeds of any unit or fund sales as well until you do?
They say I can sell the proceeds (UK Reporting Vanguard Fund) in the account without issue. I am assuming this means I can withdraw too. Everyone is a US Citizen, clearly.

I need to crunch what I should do. Keeping in equities helps somewhat against inflation but potentially owing UK taxes on dividends for something I may never be able to reclaim unless I move back doesn't sound too compelling. My intuition is that HMRC would say I owe. May look into cashing out.

On the plus side, the other accounts (401k, Brokerage, IRAs) are fine. No issue. I can even buy new US ETFs, aligning with what they told me too. I was able to move my reserve IRA accounts holding nominal small values at Vanguard and Charles Schwab to UK Address without issue.
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asteroidnix
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Re: US -> UK Move - HSA Account Strategy

Post by asteroidnix »

Little bit of an update here if it helps anyone. Another scary situation with HSA.

I have been doing qualified distributions this year from my Fidelity HSA for UK private medical expenses (seems like I did find a use for HSA monies in the end given the state of NHS covid backlog and so settled on Option 1 per original post). I've been using the Fido web "Transfer Cash" wizard to move out of the HSA account to my US bank account and then to settle medical debts on the US Credit Card. I finally got around to filing my W8BEN with Fidelity as I renounced my Green Card. I didn't receive any update after submitting it (no scary letters like when I flipped my address to the UK which said NO to more US mutual funds). Everything seemingly looked fine.

I then went to move some more money from the HSA for more qualified expenses using the simple transfer UI and got hit with "transfer restrictions are in place for this account". Disaster! I phoned them up and this happened (automatically?) as a result of the W8BEN. It was framed as part "compliance" (?) and part "security precaution" (?). After a long time on the phone, the representative had to talk to their compliance department... I was able to get money out after they sent the request directly to their back office. Going forward, I will need to use their PDF form to move the money out vs the simple web interface. Not the end of the world but was rather scary at the time thinking my money was permanently locked away. They initially framed it that it wouldn't be possible until I submit a W-9 (which I lawfully cannot do as I renounced Green Card and no longer live in the states and hence do not meet the Substantial Presence Test). I am surprised their systems were not better setup for this. It is totally reasonable for someone to come to the US late in the year and be NRA (not passing Substantial Presence Test) but still hold an HSA with Fidelity and wish to do qualified distributions.

The joys of being an NRA holder of US brokerage / tax sheltered accounts abroad!
LuckyLadyBug
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Re: US -> UK Move - HSA Account Strategy

Post by LuckyLadyBug »

Thank you for sharing your story.

I've also relocated from the UK to MA, New England for work, about 1.5 yr ago. I'm in my 30s as well. I always intended to stay here 5-10 years and then go back to the UK. The job offer was great, plus reimbursed MBA fees.I am now wondering how to best handle the 'money' so that I won't lock it away here for 3 decades as my body decays slowly in the UK :)

1. How did you handle the exit tax? I'm in the process of getting a green card (sponsored via my employer, they also did my work visa)? I dread any potential tax implications aside from usual income tax, intrest gains etc. Did you have any surprises?
https://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/kn ... x%20system.
PS: I didn't say no to the green card because my current visa locks me with the employer and makes it hard to even move around in my company. Plus employment laws here are different to the UK and I would have felt more exposed. I anticipate a green card 1.5 years max.

2. I too have an HSA - though low in value, I'm now thinking of stopping contributions given I'd be facing the same challenges you raised when I would return to the UK. In the end, do you think was worth it for you? Feels like such a hassle though I hear you, the NHS has issues and I'd be paying for private healthcare anyhow.

3. 401k - I'm anxious about locking away retirement money. I am considering stopping my contributions to the 401k and instead deposit into a ROTH 401k, both are offered with Vanguard. Company offer a nice match contributions, but only if I use a 401k or ROTH 401k. The matching contributions would have to go to the 401k. I don't quality for a ROTH IRA, my income tax bracket is 35%. I get the HSA and 401k lower my taxable income.

4. I'm also at cross-roads to stay here for the 10 years so that I can also qualify for social security, otherwise I'd be looking to waste another $100k towards retirement if I returned to the UK in less than 10 years. I pay voluntary Class 2 contributions towards my pension and occasional access to NHS. I travel with work back to the UK every 3 months.

I do have a high yield savings account with a 4.5% APY which has grown my savings quite a bit. But I've been hesitant investing any of it because I was debating buying a property so I needed the deposit cash...

I tried two tax experts and none were able to help with UK - US financials. I did my own return with Turbotax, while getting to appreciate HMRC a bit more ;)

I really appreciate your guidance and advice. Apologies if I posted it in the wrong area ... :confused LuckyLadyBug
tubaleiter
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Re: US -> UK Move - HSA Account Strategy

Post by tubaleiter »

LuckyLadyBug wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:21 pm Thank you for sharing your story.

I've also relocated from the UK to MA, New England for work, about 1.5 yr ago. I'm in my 30s as well. I always intended to stay here 5-10 years and then go back to the UK. The job offer was great, plus reimbursed MBA fees.I am now wondering how to best handle the 'money' so that I won't lock it away here for 3 decades as my body decays slowly in the UK :)
I did the opposite - moved from MA to the UK in my 30s. I'm a US citizen so not 100% the same situation, but married to a green card holder and know some of the hoops you're trying to jump through!

3. 401k - The UK recognises a 401k perfectly well, I don't see any reason to avoid it. From a long-term ease of use, account access kind of perspective, there's no difference between a Traditional or Roth 401k - that's a tax optimisation decision (both deferring US tax now and paying UK income tax later). 35% tax bracket in the US vs "who knows?" UK tax bracket at retirement - but decent guess at least some of it would be 40% under current rules, if your spending/lifestyle matches a typical 35% US taxpayer. If Vanguard doesn't want to play once you leave the US, you could always roll it into an IRA at one of the "international-friendly" brokers (Schwab International and Interactive Brokers, mostly).

Side note: you should qualify for a backdoor Roth IRA (contribute to a traditional and convert to Roth). It's a silly US loophole but super easy to use - it's just a Roth IRA contribution with a few additional clicks and no income limit. Legit enough even Vanguard has an article about it, it's not at all sketchy, just silly US rules: https://investor.vanguard.com/investor- ... ckdoor-ira

4. You've probably looked at the Social Security numbers - they're considerably more generous than UK state pension, and the 10 year mark is quite a cliff edge. At your income levels, you'll have a significant earnings history, even with only 10 years - can be a meaningful part of retirement planning. That's not to say you should stay in the US for 8.5 more years if you aren't enjoying it, but it's definitely a consideration. There's also at least one way to continue paying into Social Security after moving to the UK, if you need to get over the 10 year line: have some kind of self-employment job/side hustle and don't renounce your green card (yet). You'll still have to file US taxes (but the Foreign Tax Credit will wipe out any tax due from your primary earnings). You could get out of Self-Employment Tax because you're covered by the UK, but you don't want to - that gets you Social Security credits. My wife is in that situation, with a small self-employment in the UK, and we pay a few hundred $$$ every year to get her SS credits (I've got to do a US tax return forever anyway, so it's not really a burden for us - opting to go through that pain is probably an unusual approach but it could make sense!).

5. Investing house deposit cash is at least a "standard" personal finance question - don't even have to think about the international wrinkles. Standard advice holds - don't invest money that you need in the short term (5-10 years). There's a better-than-even chance it goes up, but a very real chance it goes down, and maybe a lot. That risk isn't worth the reward if it means you can't buy a house/the house you want.

Having just finished my US taxes yesterday, I fully sympathise with the appreciation for HMRC. At least my US taxes were only 45 pages this year - last year was 93 pages due to form 8938 to report every UK account (just because I moved some money over for a house deposit). And those IRS pages are dense compared to HMRCs very liberal use of empty space!
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