Bitcoin Exchange Traded Crypto (BTCE)

[tre3sori]

ETF provider HanETF launched an "innovative ETC for a modern portfolio" in June 2020:

ISIN: DE000A27Z304
Ticker: BTCE
Exchange: Xetra
Name: BTCetc Bitcoin Exchange Traded Crypto (BTCE)
AUM: $ 4.344 M
TER: 2.00%

Is there an investment case (diversification)?
Would anyone here invest? (Some people seem to have invested already.)
Should I recommend it to my brother who wants to invest in bitcoin. (He is bad at computers and does not know how to handle a wallet)
Do I need a modern portfolio myself? Do I have an outdated portfolio with 34% Real Estate, 40% Global Stocks, 17% Global Bonds, 6% Gold, 3% Cash made up of components that nobody of the Bitcoin Generation will pay for in the future? (I am 50+ years old.)
How should a modern portfolio look today. Just curious.
What do you think?

[Valuethinker]

ETF provider HanETF launched an "innovative ETC for a modern portfolio" in June 2020:

ISIN: DE000A27Z304
Ticker: BTCE
Exchange: Xetra
Name: BTCetc Bitcoin Exchange Traded Crypto (BTCE)
AUM: $ 4.344 M
TER: 2.00%

Is there an investment case (diversification)?
Would anyone here invest? (Some people seem to have invested already.)
Should I recommend it to my brother who wants to invest in bitcoin. (He is bad at computers and does not know how to handle a wallet)
Do I need a modern portfolio myself? Do I have an outdated portfolio with 34% Real Estate, 40% Global Stocks, 17% Global Bonds, 6% Gold, 3% Cash made up of components that nobody of the Bitcoin Generation will pay for in the future? (I am 50+ years old.)
How should a modern portfolio look today. Just curious.
What do you think?

2% expense ratio!

There goes your excess returns.

[steve321]

ETF provider HanETF launched an "innovative ETC for a modern portfolio" in June 2020:

ISIN: DE000A27Z304
Ticker: BTCE
Exchange: Xetra
Name: BTCetc Bitcoin Exchange Traded Crypto (BTCE)
AUM: $ 4.344 M
TER: 2.00%

Is there an investment case (diversification)?
Would anyone here invest? (Some people seem to have invested already.)
Should I recommend it to my brother who wants to invest in bitcoin. (He is bad at computers and does not know how to handle a wallet)
Do I need a modern portfolio myself? Do I have an outdated portfolio with 34% Real Estate, 40% Global Stocks, 17% Global Bonds, 6% Gold, 3% Cash made up of components that nobody of the Bitcoin Generation will pay for in the future? (I am 50+ years old.)
How should a modern portfolio look today. Just curious.
What do you think?

Why not buy bitcoin directly? I am actually trading it based on momentum, only a small fraction of my portfolio I must say, more for fun than anything else. Don't see the point of an ETC. Just buy it from a place with a narrow bid ask spread and either hold it or trade it based on your thoughts of what works best (and your temperament).

[IcedTea]

I don't see the rational of investing (!!!) In bitcoin. Same reason i don't do Forex, not sure how capital is allocated to the economy when I buy currency ...

[nisiprius]

Where do you live? I don't think it is even available in the United States. Morningstar is showing it as a "foreign security." That probably means it couldn't get past US regulators. If that's true, that ought to be a red flag even if you don't live in the US.

Hoo hah:

"BTCE delivers physical Bitcoin exposure with the safety and liquidity of an exchange traded product” Bradley Duke, ETC Group...

The ETC is 100% physically backed by Bitcoin.

What does that even mean? That just sounds like complete nonsense to me. How can something be "physically backed" by something that has no physical existence? Perhaps they have an explanation but I would be reluctant from a vendor whose basic description seems to rely on private definitions of ordinary words.

[Schlabba]

ETF provider HanETF launched an "innovative ETC for a modern portfolio" in June 2020:

ISIN: DE000A27Z304
Ticker: BTCE
Exchange: Xetra
Name: BTCetc Bitcoin Exchange Traded Crypto (BTCE)
AUM: $ 4.344 M
TER: 2.00%

Is there an investment case (diversification)?
Would anyone here invest? (Some people seem to have invested already.)
Should I recommend it to my brother who wants to invest in bitcoin. (He is bad at computers and does not know how to handle a wallet)
Do I need a modern portfolio myself? Do I have an outdated portfolio with 34% Real Estate, 40% Global Stocks, 17% Global Bonds, 6% Gold, 3% Cash made up of components that nobody of the Bitcoin Generation will pay for in the future? (I am 50+ years old.)
How should a modern portfolio look today. Just curious.
What do you think?

What is your, and your brothers, investment goals, beliefs and risk tolerance?
Once you have a goal and a set of beliefs you’d like to stick to, then you could start looking at how to achieve that goal.

I think in this post you first found a tool, and then you look for how you can apply that tool to work for you.

I wildly disagree with holding bitcoin, but some people, for instance, hold bitcoin or gold because they don’t trust their (Emerging market?) currency.
For such a case you could consider inflation-linked-bonds as well.

If your brother wants to invest in bitcoin you shouldn’t recommend him an ETC or any other product, you should recommend him a book like ‘the simple path to wealth’ by jl collins. Or ‘the little book of common sense investing’ by John Bogle. Those are my personal favorites

[Schlabba]

Where do you live? I don't think it is even available in the United States. Morningstar is showing it as a "foreign security." That probably means it couldn't get past US regulators. If not, that ought to be a red flag even if you don't live in the US.

Hoo hah:

"BTCE delivers physical Bitcoin exposure with the safety and liquidity of an exchange traded product” Bradley Duke, ETC Group...

The ETC is 100% physically backed by Bitcoin.

What does that even mean? That just sounds like complete nonsense to me. How can something be "physically backed" by something that has no physical existence? Perhaps they have an explanation but I would be reluctant from a vendor whose basic description seems to rely on private definitions of ordinary words.

My best guess is that they have some harddrives with bitcoin on them. Maybe they are trying to say they don’t rely on some external exchange which get hacked all the time.
There was even an exchange where the founder died and only he had the password to the wallets! https://www.google.nl/amp/s/amp.cnn.com ... index.html

[permport]

I think you are much better off buying the cryptocurrencies themselves directly.

Getting exposure via an ETF sort of defeats the very purpose of them entirely.

[tre3sori]

Sorry, I obviously didn't get the irony through. I'm no native English speaker, so excuse me please.

I skip the Bitcoin Exchange Traded Crypto ETC for a TER of 2.00% and go with the Emerging Cancer ETF instead

mentioned by Jack Bogle in this interview (min 2:19):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrCo0m5gSfc

[nisiprius]

Sorry, I obviously didn't get the irony through. I'm no native English speaker, so excuse me please.

I skip the Bitcoin Exchange Traded Crypto ETC for a TER of 2.00% and go with the Emerging Cancer ETF instead

mentioned by Jack Bogle in this interview (min 2:19):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrCo0m5gSfc

[Ubersetzer]

ETF provider HanETF launched an "innovative ETC for a modern portfolio" in June 2020:

ISIN: DE000A27Z304
Ticker: BTCE
Exchange: Xetra
Name: BTCetc Bitcoin Exchange Traded Crypto (BTCE)
AUM: $ 4.344 M
TER: 2.00%

Is there an investment case (diversification)?
Would anyone here invest? (Some people seem to have invested already.)
Should I recommend it to my brother who wants to invest in bitcoin. (He is bad at computers and does not know how to handle a wallet)
Do I need a modern portfolio myself? Do I have an outdated portfolio with 34% Real Estate, 40% Global Stocks, 17% Global Bonds, 6% Gold, 3% Cash made up of components that nobody of the Bitcoin Generation will pay for in the future? (I am 50+ years old.)
How should a modern portfolio look today. Just curious.
What do you think?

Why not buy bitcoin directly? I am actually trading it based on momentum, only a small fraction of my portfolio I must say, more for fun than anything else. Don't see the point of an ETC. Just buy it from a place with a narrow bid ask spread and either hold it or trade it based on your thoughts of what works best (and your temperament).

Where do you buy Bitcoin from?

[Nightowl99]

If you're wanting to have more currency diversification, with just a fraction of your portfolio, maybe you'd want to consider something like Emerging Markets Bonds instead. Just a thought. I wouldn't buy bitcoin myself, don't understand it.

[softwaregeek]

As someone who makes a living in the crypto industry, let me say: Run, don't walk away.

There are legit investments in the crypto industry. But there are also a lot of scams and a lot of people who exploit the greedy yet naive people who think it's a get rich quick scheme.

Avoid this.

If you want to hold bitcoin, go to a legitimate Tier 1 exchange, wire in some money, and just buy and hodl. Coinbase, Gemini and Kraken are the exchanges I recommend.

That being said, I still maintain that crypto is NOT an appropriate investment for the vast majority of people.

[softwaregeek]

ETF provider HanETF launched an "innovative ETC for a modern portfolio" in June 2020:

ISIN: DE000A27Z304
Ticker: BTCE
Exchange: Xetra
Name: BTCetc Bitcoin Exchange Traded Crypto (BTCE)
AUM: $ 4.344 M
TER: 2.00%

Is there an investment case (diversification)?
Would anyone here invest? (Some people seem to have invested already.)
Should I recommend it to my brother who wants to invest in bitcoin. (He is bad at computers and does not know how to handle a wallet)
Do I need a modern portfolio myself? Do I have an outdated portfolio with 34% Real Estate, 40% Global Stocks, 17% Global Bonds, 6% Gold, 3% Cash made up of components that nobody of the Bitcoin Generation will pay for in the future? (I am 50+ years old.)
How should a modern portfolio look today. Just curious.
What do you think?

Why not buy bitcoin directly? I am actually trading it based on momentum, only a small fraction of my portfolio I must say, more for fun than anything else. Don't see the point of an ETC. Just buy it from a place with a narrow bid ask spread and either hold it or trade it based on your thoughts of what works best (and your temperament).

Where do you buy Bitcoin from?

My personal accounts are at Kraken. Many people have Coinbase.

[minimalistmarc]

I think you are much better off buying the cryptocurrencies themselves directly.

Getting exposure via an ETF sort of defeats the very purpose of them entirely.

Most people buy them to gamble/speculate so it doesn’t defeat the purpose.

[Valuethinker]

If you're wanting to have more currency diversification, with just a fraction of your portfolio, maybe you'd want to consider something like Emerging Markets Bonds instead. Just a thought. I wouldn't buy bitcoin myself, don't understand it.

If "local bonds" yes - issued domestically in the national currency.

International bonds/ Eurobonds no - they are almost always issued in USD (a few in EUR and perhaps JPY)?

I have not looked for funds/ ETFs, Irish domiciled, that invest in local bonds. Are there such?

[tre3sori]

I have not looked for funds/ ETFs, Irish domiciled, that invest in local bonds. Are there such?

iShares J.P. Morgan EM Local Govt Bond UCITS ETF, IE00B5M4WH52, ticker IUSP.GY
A pretty big one with AUM USD 5.8 billion.
TER 0.50% though.

[Valuethinker]

I think you are much better off buying the cryptocurrencies themselves directly.

Getting exposure via an ETF sort of defeats the very purpose of them entirely.

Most people buy them to gamble/speculate so it doesn’t defeat the purpose.

I am shocked... shocked ... to hear allegations of gambling in this establishment.

Yes Sir, your winnings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

https://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdf/10.1257/aer.104.6.1486 Robert Shiller on speculative bubbles

https://qz.com/1067557/robert-shiller-w ... s-bitcoin/

One of these interviews someone mentioned ICOs (Initial Coin Offerings) which Shiller had never heard of - but are a key part of the crypto story (or were). After they were mentioned he was visibly disconcerted and said he was unaware of such obviously bubble-like behaviour (investment trusts, as in up to the Crash of 1929 or the South Sea Bubble, that raised money to invest in cryptos).

[permport]

Most people buy them to gamble/speculate so it doesn’t defeat the purpose.

Sure, that's one of the reasons.

But one of the main features of cryptocurrencies generally is to "escape" the traditional financial system and achieve personal sovereignty and privacy. Buying coins directly can allow you to do that, but an ETF would not.

[000]

I would not invest in Bitcoin, but I were, I certainly wouldn't pay 2% for a fund company to do it for me.

[Ubersetzer]

ETF provider HanETF launched an "innovative ETC for a modern portfolio" in June 2020:

ISIN: DE000A27Z304
Ticker: BTCE
Exchange: Xetra
Name: BTCetc Bitcoin Exchange Traded Crypto (BTCE)
AUM: $ 4.344 M
TER: 2.00%

Is there an investment case (diversification)?
Would anyone here invest? (Some people seem to have invested already.)
Should I recommend it to my brother who wants to invest in bitcoin. (He is bad at computers and does not know how to handle a wallet)
Do I need a modern portfolio myself? Do I have an outdated portfolio with 34% Real Estate, 40% Global Stocks, 17% Global Bonds, 6% Gold, 3% Cash made up of components that nobody of the Bitcoin Generation will pay for in the future? (I am 50+ years old.)
How should a modern portfolio look today. Just curious.
What do you think?

Why not buy bitcoin directly? I am actually trading it based on momentum, only a small fraction of my portfolio I must say, more for fun than anything else. Don't see the point of an ETC. Just buy it from a place with a narrow bid ask spread and either hold it or trade it based on your thoughts of what works best (and your temperament).

Where do you buy Bitcoin from?

My personal accounts are at Kraken. Many people have Coinbase.

Do you have any thoughts on Binance?

[softwaregeek]

ETF provider HanETF launched an "innovative ETC for a modern portfolio" in June 2020:

ISIN: DE000A27Z304
Ticker: BTCE
Exchange: Xetra
Name: BTCetc Bitcoin Exchange Traded Crypto (BTCE)
AUM: $ 4.344 M
TER: 2.00%

Is there an investment case (diversification)?
Would anyone here invest? (Some people seem to have invested already.)
Should I recommend it to my brother who wants to invest in bitcoin. (He is bad at computers and does not know how to handle a wallet)
Do I need a modern portfolio myself? Do I have an outdated portfolio with 34% Real Estate, 40% Global Stocks, 17% Global Bonds, 6% Gold, 3% Cash made up of components that nobody of the Bitcoin Generation will pay for in the future? (I am 50+ years old.)
How should a modern portfolio look today. Just curious.
What do you think?

Why not buy bitcoin directly? I am actually trading it based on momentum, only a small fraction of my portfolio I must say, more for fun than anything else. Don't see the point of an ETC. Just buy it from a place with a narrow bid ask spread and either hold it or trade it based on your thoughts of what works best (and your temperament).

Where do you buy Bitcoin from?

My personal accounts are at Kraken. Many people have Coinbase.

Do you have any thoughts on Binance?

Binance.com is fine for non-US. They have started cracking down on US investors and booting them from the platform. Binance.US is a forgotten pale shadow. They are legit but I don't see the benefits.

My personal recommendation list:

1. Kraken
2. Coinbase
3. Gemini

Kraken has low commissions but considers itself an investment platform. Coinbase has higher commissions but a wallet so you can transact business through it. I haven't tried Gemini personally but they are ultra respected as well .

[softwaregeek]

I should also add - Kraken and Gemini are primarily institutional, but also do individuals. Coinbase has a huge individual business as well.

Gemini has a bitlicense, which means it is regulated by the state of NY.

Kraken does not do business in NY, they have refused to get their bitlicense on ideological grounds. They are hardcore privacy activists but do have some incredibly sophisticated auditing, that is open source. I haven't seen anything else like it publicly, although I assume others have it privately.

Coinbase is the biggest and will be a massive IPO next year.

Most of the crypto industry people I know go with Kraken or Coinbase.

[Anon9001]

Do not buy this. Insane fees. Does it at least give you tax advantage over Coinbase?

[Ubersetzer]

Fees for Binance are lower than or comparable to Coinbase - aren't they?

I assumed this board was for non-US investors so I'm not concerned with US policies.

[softwaregeek]

Fees for Binance are lower than or comparable to Coinbase - aren't they?

I assumed this board was for non-US investors so I'm not concerned with US policies.

Ah, missed that I was on the non-US board. Yes, Binance is good if you can access the *Main* binance site. OUtside US:

Coinbase
Kraken
Bitfinex
Binance

Exchanges I personally would Avoid, although I have no personal experience with:

BitMex - https://coingeek.com/bitmex-founders-in ... regulator/

OKEx - https://beincrypto.com/okex-ceo-address ... uspension/

Huobi - https://cryptoticker.io/en/huobi-rumors-bizarre/

Also, consider banking products that do crypto like Revolut. Their product looks interesting and I hear the team behind it is legit, but haven't tried it personally.

[Ubersetzer]

Fees for Binance are lower than or comparable to Coinbase - aren't they?

I assumed this board was for non-US investors so I'm not concerned with US policies.

Ah, missed that I was on the non-US board. Yes, Binance is good if you can access the *Main* binance site. OUtside US:

Coinbase
Kraken
Bitfinex
Binance

Exchanges I personally would Avoid, although I have no personal experience with:

BitMex - https://coingeek.com/bitmex-founders-in ... regulator/

OKEx - https://beincrypto.com/okex-ceo-address ... uspension/

Huobi - https://cryptoticker.io/en/huobi-rumors-bizarre/

Also, consider banking products that do crypto like Revolut. Their product looks interesting and I hear the team behind it is legit, but haven't tried it personally.

Thanks! : )

I find it difficult to understand fees of Kraken vs Binance. In what I see, Kraken has a 0.16% / 0.26% (Maker/Taker Fee) while Binance has a 0.1% / 0.1% fee. Is that correct? If so, any particular reason to prefer Kraken over Binance?

[followtheflo]

I bought some bitcoin for the first time yesterday as a way to diversify and I will keep buying until I get to 2% or 3% of my portfolio. Whether or not you like it (I actually don't) Bitcoin is here to stay. I used Coinbase Pro and I just ordered a Ledger Nano S.

Some interesting reading: https://www.nber.org/system/files/worki ... w24877.pdf

[finrod_2002]

Where do you live? I don't think it is even available in the United States. Morningstar is showing it as a "foreign security." That probably means it couldn't get past US regulators. If that's true, that ought to be a red flag even if you don't live in the US.

Hoo hah:

"BTCE delivers physical Bitcoin exposure with the safety and liquidity of an exchange traded product” Bradley Duke, ETC Group...

The ETC is 100% physically backed by Bitcoin.

What does that even mean? That just sounds like complete nonsense to me. How can something be "physically backed" by something that has no physical existence? Perhaps they have an explanation but I would be reluctant from a vendor whose basic description seems to rely on private definitions of ordinary words.

I guess they use hardware wallets to store the addresses of the tokens with some redundancy, which keeps them quite save. Like putting cash in a vault.

[softwaregeek]

Fees for Binance are lower than or comparable to Coinbase - aren't they?

I assumed this board was for non-US investors so I'm not concerned with US policies.

Ah, missed that I was on the non-US board. Yes, Binance is good if you can access the *Main* binance site. OUtside US:

Coinbase
Kraken
Bitfinex
Binance

Exchanges I personally would Avoid, although I have no personal experience with:

BitMex - https://coingeek.com/bitmex-founders-in ... regulator/

OKEx - https://beincrypto.com/okex-ceo-address ... uspension/

Huobi - https://cryptoticker.io/en/huobi-rumors-bizarre/

Also, consider banking products that do crypto like Revolut. Their product looks interesting and I hear the team behind it is legit, but haven't tried it personally.

Thanks! : )

I find it difficult to understand fees of Kraken vs Binance. In what I see, Kraken has a 0.16% / 0.26% (Maker/Taker Fee) while Binance has a 0.1% / 0.1% fee. Is that correct? If so, any particular reason to prefer Kraken over Binance?

This is a trust thing. In two ways. First, is my crypto safe, and second, is someone gonna front run my trade or give me a bad spread. Fees are the least of it. This is not an ETF and normal Boglehead rules do not apply because to some degree this is the Wild West. Kraken and Coinbase I Trust. There is a lot of unethical stuff in this industry. Not that I would say anything against Binance. They are very big and very technically sophisticated. but I still prefer to have money in US exchanges where the regulators inspire fear.