DI for young dual-doc household

Zeppcoustic · Post by **Zeppcoustic** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:13 pm

Virtual advisors,

I've just started researching disability insurance policies. We are 27/28, healthy with no preexisting conditions, getting married in October. We have 4 years left of residency/fellowship. Specialties are otolaryngology and radiology. My questions:

- Is there any reason not to purchase DI now/soon if we can afford it? We have some kind of employer coverage through our hospitals now, not sure of the specifics.

- Is it crazy to have only one of us insured, i.e. can one of us effectively self-insure the other? Worse case scenario we are both totally disabled and unable to work outside of medicine

, with only one policy paying us.

Good policies for people like us seem to be about $100/month. Our current cashflow is limited due to saving for wedding, and because we are moving in May. I'm considering buying a policy after the wedding after I get some quotes outside of Guardian.

Thank you.

NoVa Lurker · Post by **NoVa Lurker** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:59 pm

What expenses are you buying the insurance to cover? What percentage of income would you expect the insurance to cover? How did you arrive at that number? Do you have kids? A mortgage? Do you tend to engage in any particular activities that might increase the risk of disability? What employer-provided coverage do you have now?

I am not a doctor, but my tendency was to wait until I had actual obligations (wife, kid, home) before paying attention to insurance on myself.

You can "afford" to pay $100/month on something you don't need -- but why would you?

In your case, you can self-insure not just by only buying one policy (as you mention), but by buying no policies, simply because you both can produce income. Of course, that only works if your expected expenses can be met by one salary.

That's not to say, necessarily, that you should not buy disability insurance. But I don't think you provided enough information for meaningful advice at this point.

NoVa Lurker · Post by **NoVa Lurker** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:07 pm

Also, if you haven't seen it already, you may find this thread helpful:

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... =2&t=68489

Zeppcoustic · Post by **Zeppcoustic** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:13 pm

NoVa Lurker wrote:What expenses are you buying the insurance to cover? What percentage of income would you expect the insurance to cover? How did you arrive at that number? Do you have kids? A mortgage? Do you tend to engage in any particular activities that might increase the risk of disability? What employer-provided coverage do you have now?

I am not a doctor, but my tendency was to wait until I had actual obligations (wife, kid, home) before paying attention to insurance on myself.

You can "afford" to pay $100/month on something you don't need -- but why would you?

In your case, you can self-insure not just by only buying one policy (as you mention), but by buying no policies, simply because you both can produce income. Of course, that only works if your expected expenses can be met by one salary.

That's not to say, necessarily, that you should not buy disability insurance. But I don't think you provided enough information for meaningful advice at this point.

Appreciate reply. No kids or mortgage.

We will be purchasing a policy at some point. The premiums supposedly go up 3-4% each year, as you get older/riskier to insure. Also I heard there is some kind of resident discount. Thought it might be best to lock something in now, and increase coverage as we go

BruDude · Post by **BruDude** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:21 pm

Let's simplify the questions into one: If you were unable to work, do you want to be paid?

Buying DI in residency is more about protecting your future income than the current one, though that is also important. You can get $4k/mo benefit in residency regardless of income and guarantee future insurability of an additional $12k/mo, which you would be able to max out pretty quickly with the expected incomes for those specialties. The younger you are, the lower your rates will be since the policy (with Guardian at least) has a guaranteed premium. It's unlikely that any company with a top-tier policy will have rates significantly lower than Guardian's and your school may already have a discount for buying a Guardian policy. You probably already know that you won't find better contractual wording than what they offer.

If you took out student loans, you may also want to look at their student loan DI protection policy which will pay additional benefits that pay off your loans in the event that you become totally disabled. The benefits reduce over time as your loans are paid off and the coverage is pretty cheap...about $200-300/year to cover ~$200k in student loans for 20 years.

Zeppcoustic · Post by **Zeppcoustic** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:00 pm

Thanks Bru.

beareconomy · Post by **beareconomy** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:07 pm

Rather than buying one policy, how about one of you buy from one company like guardial and the other buys from metlife just in case on company becomes insolvent. Just a thought.

BruDude · Post by **BruDude** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:25 pm

beareconomy wrote:Rather than buying one policy, how about one of you buy from one company like guardial and the other buys from metlife just in case on company becomes insolvent. Just a thought.

Contractual wording is more important than financial rating when both companies have strong financials....and Guardian has an A++ AM Best rating and 99/100 comdex rating. The odds of an A++ rated mutual company becoming insolvent are slim to none. MetLife's policy is good, but has a few limitations that Guardian doesn't. Recovery benefits limited to max 36 months instead of to age 67, COLA is not guaranteed 3% compounded, etc

Zeppcoustic · Post by **Zeppcoustic** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:48 pm

Anyone of the opinion that one policy between us may be sufficient?

Just realized in the unfortunate event of divorce, one policy is clearly suboptimal.

Any ideas if discounts are possible if we both purchase a policy at same time from same company?

THanks!

White Coat Investor · Post by **White Coat Investor** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:58 pm

It is reasonable to either buy a policy on both of you or to buy no policy on either of you. I don't quite get the logic of only covering one of you though, unless one of you makes much more than the other.

It is possible to have quite a good life on a single doctor's salary, so it's quite possible that no policy is needed. But most docs do buy a policy, and you might as well get it now. Guardian isn't necessarily the only company to look at though.

http://whitecoatinvestor.com/personal-f ... rotection/

dhodson · Post by **dhodson** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:01 pm

If the agent isn't working to get you a 10% discount then dump him or her. Never use guardian for anything but DI. Never allow the agent to put your info into either living balance or leap software. I'd still look at principal and standard to see if you want the bells and whistles you are paying for. If you both plan to save aggressively, I'd purchase a graded policy with the intent of getting rid of them in your mid 50s.

BruDude · Post by **BruDude** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:37 am

Zeppcoustic wrote:Anyone of the opinion that one policy between us may be sufficient?

Just realized in the unfortunate event of divorce, one policy is clearly suboptimal.

Any ideas if discounts are possible if we both purchase a policy at same time from same company?

THanks!

I don't know of anyone that offers a discount for buying two policies at the same time for two separate people. You can get a 10% discount with Guardian pretty easily if one isn't already available through your residency program. Principal has a 24-month limit on mental/nervous disorders if you choose the "true own occupation" definition of disability (Principal calls it a "regular occupation" definition). Their guaranteed insurability options are not as good as Guardian and Standard's. In all likelihood, Guardian will have the best benefits at a comparable price to the others when all is said and done.

letsgobobby · Post by **letsgobobby** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:59 am

I don't think the cost will be $100 per month for a good policy. I pay that for a poor policy with only a $4500 monthly benefit. For two $15k monthly benefits, I think you'll be looking at hundreds of dollars per month - maybe up to a thousand dollars?

Zeppcoustic · Post by **Zeppcoustic** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:09 am

letsgobobby wrote:I don't think the cost will be $100 per month for a good policy. I pay that for a poor policy with only a $4500 monthly benefit. For two $15k monthly benefits, I think you'll be looking at hundreds of dollars per month - maybe up to a thousand dollars?

We don't need two $15k monthly benefits; we're residents. That would be almost 500% of our current income.

BruDude · Post by **BruDude** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:00 pm

Just picking a random state (NC), $4k/mo with $12k/mo FIO, $1k/mo retirement protection, residual, and 3% COLA for a 28 year old with 4M radiologist occupation class, preferred health, and 10% discount would be around $150/month for male, $240/mo for female.

3M occupation class for otolaryngologist, premium for same coverage would be around $180/mo for male, $280/mo for female. Standard is almost exactly the same price, but doesn't offer the retirement protection so Guardian is actually about $20/mo less. If your wife can get unisex rates they will be a lot lower than gender-distinct rates.

lightheir · Post by **lightheir** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:12 pm

It's a good idea. I was skeptical at first, but I did look at the numbers.

Off the top of my head as I can recall, the stats for actually using your DI was over 33% from age 25-50. The dollar payout per dollar collected ratio is just under 50% for both Standard and Guardian, I think, which also shows that it's not just a cash cow for them.

Yes, it's pricey, but can be worth it, given the real likelihood you may need it.

The main catch though - they are VERY aggressive about health exclusions for the noncancelable (that's the one you want) contracts. I had a colleague in his early 30s who had borderline hypertension not on drug therapy, and they denied him coverage completely. Similarly for a female colleague with a history of brief depression (estimates are that over 30% of medical students utilize psychopharmaceuticals, and a large percentage of that group experiences depression at some point, so they're excluding a lot just based on two specific diagnoses.) You pretty much need to be in perfect health to lock in the coverage, which is why you should do it ASAP if you're healthy.

Zeppcoustic · Post by **Zeppcoustic** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:22 pm

Interesting. Thank you for replies.

A friend forwarded me his Guardian ProVider Plus Proposal. He is a gen surg resident in NJ, categorized 3M. Here it is:

Initial Graded Premium – ProVider Plus
Monthly Quarterly SemiAnnual Annual
Base Policy $4,000/mo. $39.33 $123.97 $243.08 $472.00
Optional Benefits
Future Increase Option $12,000/mo. $16.00 $50.43 $98.88 $192.00
Residual Disability $7.63 $24.06 $47.17 $91.60
Cost of Living Adj. 3% $9.10 $28.68 $56.24 $109.20
Total Premium* $72.07 $227.14 $445.37 $864.80
Discounts Applied
Employer-sponsored Discount 10% $-7.21 $-22.71 $-44.54 $-86.48
Total Discounted Premium $64.86 $204.43 $400.83 $778.32

Bru, what is "retirement protection" that you mentioned?

letsgobobby · Post by **letsgobobby** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:16 pm

It's strange to me to only insure your resident salary, and not your eventual non-resident salary. It's the latter which your lifestyle will be based upon.

dhodson · Post by **dhodson** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:22 pm

you can only insure what you are making with an option to purchase more once your income goes up.

just to clarify something written above, the risk is about 1% of having a disability that you can get benefits from. your policy will cost you around 3% of what you are protecting. Since insurance companies cant print money, if there were zero costs, the risk would be around 3%. Given the fees/commissions etc its about half that.

BruDude · Post by **BruDude** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:42 pm

Zeppcoustic wrote:Interesting. Thank you for replies.

A friend forwarded me his Guardian ProVider Plus Proposal. He is a gen surg resident in NJ, categorized 3M. Here it is:

Initial Graded Premium – ProVider Plus
Monthly Quarterly SemiAnnual Annual
Base Policy $4,000/mo. $39.33 $123.97 $243.08 $472.00
Optional Benefits
Future Increase Option $12,000/mo. $16.00 $50.43 $98.88 $192.00
Residual Disability $7.63 $24.06 $47.17 $91.60
Cost of Living Adj. 3% $9.10 $28.68 $56.24 $109.20
Total Premium* $72.07 $227.14 $445.37 $864.80
Discounts Applied
Employer-sponsored Discount 10% $-7.21 $-22.71 $-44.54 $-86.48
Total Discounted Premium $64.86 $204.43 $400.83 $778.32

Bru, what is "retirement protection" that you mentioned?

That quote is for a graded premium that increases every year. If he has the same quote run as a level premium it will be around $150-180/month. If money is a concern, the graded premium can be a good idea to start off with, but it will cost you more over the life of the policy because when you "level out" the premium later on, it will be at a higher level for the rest of your life than if you had kept it level to begin with.

The retirement protection sets up a trust account in your name in the event of a total disability in which retirement contributions are put into the account to be invested at your discretion. At age 65, the account is turned over to you to cash out or continue investing with. The minimum elimination period for this rider is 180 days and it has a modified own-occ definition of disability (cannot be working in another job) even if your base policy has a true own-occ definition. Residents can get $1,000/mo in retirement protection even if they have not started contributing to retirement accounts yet. The max benefits for retirement protection is around $4k/mo. The idea is that if you are totally disabled and can't work in any job, you are likely not going to be making any retirement contributions, so the rider fills that hole.

lightheir · Post by **lightheir** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:45 pm

I believe the payouts for these DI insurances are tax-free as long as you aren't deducting the premium payments on your income taxes. That makes it worth a lot more than the stsated amounts, especially for physicians who are usually paying upward of 37.5% overall in taxes and 45+% marginal.

BruDude · Post by **BruDude** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:48 pm

dhodson wrote:you can only insure what you are making with an option to purchase more once your income goes up.

just to clarify something written above, the risk is about 1% of having a disability that you can get benefits from. your policy will cost you around 3% of what you are protecting. Since insurance companies cant print money, if there were zero costs, the risk would be around 3%. Given the fees/commissions etc its about half that.

The risk is not 1%. If you want to consider that the risk of having a disability on an annual basis may be 1% I could accept a figure around that number....but a career is longer than one year. Over the course of a career the risk is certainly a lot higher than 1%, especially for those classified in a 3M or 4M occ class instead of 5M or 6M.

Zeppcoustic · Post by **Zeppcoustic** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:54 pm

lightheir wrote:I believe the payouts for these DI insurances are tax-free as long as you aren't deducting the premium payments on your income taxes. That makes it worth a lot more than the stsated amounts, especially for physicians who are usually paying upward of 37.5% overall in taxes and 45+% marginal.

Would it be reasonable to deduct the premiums for these years we're in residency (when we're relatively younger/healthier/more strapped for cash) and then cease deductions once we're attendings?

dhodson · Post by **dhodson** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:25 pm

BruDude wrote:
dhodson wrote:you can only insure what you are making with an option to purchase more once your income goes up.

just to clarify something written above, the risk is about 1% of having a disability that you can get benefits from. your policy will cost you around 3% of what you are protecting. Since insurance companies cant print money, if there were zero costs, the risk would be around 3%. Given the fees/commissions etc its about half that.
The risk is not 1%. If you want to consider that the risk of having a disability on an annual basis may be 1% I could accept a figure around that number....but a career is longer than one year. Over the course of a career the risk is certainly a lot higher than 1%, especially for those classified in a 3M or 4M occ class instead of 5M or 6M.

the figure to be concerned about isnt what the risk of being disabled but the chance that the insurance company will pay a claim since it doesnt matter if you are disabled but they dont pay. You wont find any insurance company telling you what percent of physician clients are long term disabled and receiving payments.

BruDude · Post by **BruDude** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:47 pm

dhodson wrote:
BruDude wrote:
dhodson wrote:you can only insure what you are making with an option to purchase more once your income goes up.

just to clarify something written above, the risk is about 1% of having a disability that you can get benefits from. your policy will cost you around 3% of what you are protecting. Since insurance companies cant print money, if there were zero costs, the risk would be around 3%. Given the fees/commissions etc its about half that.
The risk is not 1%. If you want to consider that the risk of having a disability on an annual basis may be 1% I could accept a figure around that number....but a career is longer than one year. Over the course of a career the risk is certainly a lot higher than 1%, especially for those classified in a 3M or 4M occ class instead of 5M or 6M.
the figure to be concerned about isnt what the risk of being disabled but the chance that the insurance company will pay a claim since it doesnt matter if you are disabled but they dont pay. You wont find any insurance company telling you what percent of physician clients are long term disabled and receiving payments.

I would bet the number is higher than you think it is, especially factoring in residual disability payments for loss of income. Never had a client with a legitimate disability claim denied benefits....most of the denials you hear about are on group policies and often because people have no idea how crappy the coverage was that they bought and/or don't understand the policy.

White Coat Investor · Post by **White Coat Investor** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:02 pm

Zeppcoustic wrote:
lightheir wrote:I believe the payouts for these DI insurances are tax-free as long as you aren't deducting the premium payments on your income taxes. That makes it worth a lot more than the stsated amounts, especially for physicians who are usually paying upward of 37.5% overall in taxes and 45+% marginal.
Would it be reasonable to deduct the premiums for these years we're in residency (when we're relatively younger/healthier/more strapped for cash) and then cease deductions once we're attendings?

It's a little more complicated than that. Generally, group policies are pre-tax (both premiums and payouts) and individual policies are post-tax (both premiums and payouts.) My main policy is post-tax, but I am considering adding to coverage and having my corporation buy it as a business expense (making payouts pre-tax as well.) My theory is that if I were totally disabled, I could still fill up the lower tax brackets with the pre-tax payouts from the second policy.

I don't know if you can start a policy as post-tax and later have it become pre-tax. I suspect you can't.

White Coat Investor · Post by **White Coat Investor** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:04 pm

BruDude wrote:
The retirement protection sets up a trust account in your name in the event of a total disability in which retirement contributions are put into the account to be invested at your discretion. At age 65, the account is turned over to you to cash out or continue investing with. The minimum elimination period for this rider is 180 days and it has a modified own-occ definition of disability (cannot be working in another job) even if your base policy has a true own-occ definition. Residents can get $1,000/mo in retirement protection even if they have not started contributing to retirement accounts yet. The max benefits for retirement protection is around $4k/mo. The idea is that if you are totally disabled and can't work in any job, you are likely not going to be making any retirement contributions, so the rider fills that hole.

Great explanation. I didn't realize it was modified own-occ. What are the investing and maintenance expenses on the trust account?

Mind if I steal your explanation and post it on my website (with appropriate attribution including a link if you like?)

letsgobobby · Post by **letsgobobby** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:17 pm

Can you remind me what all the classifications (5M, etc) mean and what their significance is?

BruDude · Post by **BruDude** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:13 pm

EmergDoc wrote:
BruDude wrote:
The retirement protection sets up a trust account in your name in the event of a total disability in which retirement contributions are put into the account to be invested at your discretion. At age 65, the account is turned over to you to cash out or continue investing with. The minimum elimination period for this rider is 180 days and it has a modified own-occ definition of disability (cannot be working in another job) even if your base policy has a true own-occ definition. Residents can get $1,000/mo in retirement protection even if they have not started contributing to retirement accounts yet. The max benefits for retirement protection is around $4k/mo. The idea is that if you are totally disabled and can't work in any job, you are likely not going to be making any retirement contributions, so the rider fills that hole.
Great explanation. I didn't realize it was modified own-occ. What are the investing and maintenance expenses on the trust account?

Mind if I steal your explanation and post it on my website (with appropriate attribution including a link if you like?)

I am not sure what the expenses are for the trust account, would need to get that info from Guardian. There are no expenses or fees listed in any brochure or policy, so they may be waived because you have to be disabled to get the benefit in the first place. As far as I know you can invest in anything you want without restriction. I will send you a PM.

letsgobobby wrote:Can you remind me what all the classifications (5M, etc) mean and what their significance is?

The occupation classes determine the required premiums. Higher occupation classes pay lower rates than lower occupation classes - the lower classes generally have more manual duties and/or are at higher risk of disability based on their occupational duties. Regular occupations are usually listed as classes 1-6, medical occupations have an M on the end. Some companies like Principal list regular occupations as 1A-5A and medical as 1A-M to 5A-M

Zeppcoustic · Post by **Zeppcoustic** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:01 am

BruDude wrote: If your wife can get unisex rates they will be a lot lower than gender-distinct rates.

BruDude (and others):

I'm still not clear if we need two separate policies, one policy covering both of us, or just one policy covering one of us. Also, it is my impression that unisex rates favor females significantly, and may not be beneficial for men if not combined with an employee-discount. Is this logical? Is it possible to choose a joint policy with unisex rates vs. two policies with unisex rate for her?

Thanks for insightful posts thus far.

CMartel2 · Post by **CMartel2** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:34 am

lightheir wrote: The main catch though - they are VERY aggressive about health exclusions for the noncancelable (that's the one you want) contracts. I had a colleague in his early 30s who had borderline hypertension not on drug therapy, and they denied him coverage completely. Similarly for a female colleague with a history of brief depression (estimates are that over 30% of medical students utilize psychopharmaceuticals, and a large percentage of that group experiences depression at some point, so they're excluding a lot just based on two specific diagnoses.) You pretty much need to be in perfect health to lock in the coverage, which is why you should do it ASAP if you're healthy.

Does that include previous medical records? If, for instance, you had borderline hypertension and corrected this without medications?

BruDude · Post by **BruDude** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:17 am

Zeppcoustic wrote:
BruDude wrote: If your wife can get unisex rates they will be a lot lower than gender-distinct rates.
BruDude (and others):

I'm still not clear if we need two separate policies, one policy covering both of us, or just one policy covering one of us. Also, it is my impression that unisex rates favor females significantly, and may not be beneficial for men if not combined with an employee-discount. Is this logical? Is it possible to choose a joint policy with unisex rates vs. two policies with unisex rate for her?

Thanks for insightful posts thus far.

Unisex rates make a huge difference in the cost for females, but are more expensive for males and even with a discount can still be more expensive than buying a policy with gender-distinct rates, just depends on the specifics.

Where are you finding joint DI policies? I have never seen that before. You would definitely need two separate policies...whether she can even get unisex rates depends if her residency program has an offer set up that includes them, otherwise she will be subject to gender-distinct rates applying for a policy individually.

semperlux · Post by **semperlux** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:07 am

I bought my DI coverage in my last year of residency at 29 years old to get the 10% discount, and to make sure I am in the younger age bracket. I believe most companies have different prices for different age brackets (eg <30, 30-34, 35-39, etc...) so it's to your advantage, especially if you know you're income will increase several fold to purchase the policy earlier while the rates are lower & while you are healthier. Make sure you get the rider to be able to increase it without doing additional medical exams.

I looked into Guardian, Standard, Principal, Metlife, Mass Mutual, & Northwestern Mutual at the time when I was still living in New York.

To emphasize what some have already said, if you pay with post tax money & don't deduct it from income calculations, the monthly benefit is tax free should you ever need it.

My wife's DI policy includes a maternity leave coverage which pays a percentage of her usual income while she's off from maternity leave. That's pretty sweet.

My first policy out of residency was $4k monthly benefit for about $180 monthly premium. Since then I have increased coverage to $10k monthly benefit for just under $500 monthly premium. Some numbers for thought when you're making your decision.

QUESTIONS for the others:

1. Emergency physician is occupation class 3M right?

2. Always wanted to know if the rates I'm getting are fair or not. Does the $500 monthly premium for $10k monthly coverage sound about right, or have I been taken for a ride?

pharmTOX · Post by **pharmTOX** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:43 am

I've got a di policy that pays 2k/mo from ohio national life. The premium is a135/mo. Ive never done any comparative shopping so am not aware if this is a good deal or not. Im also not a doc which increaes the premium.

BruDude · Post by **BruDude** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:51 pm

pharmTOX wrote:I've got a di policy that pays 2k/mo from ohio national life. The premium is a135/mo. Ive never done any comparative shopping so am not aware if this is a good deal or not. Im also not a doc which increaes the premium.

No way to answer that without knowing your age/gender/occupation. Ohio National's DI policy is not in what I would consider the top tier of coverage with Guardian, Principal, Standard, MetLife, Union Central, and Mass Mutual. They recently introduced a new DI policy with some better features, but unless you're in one of the top occupation classes it still has some "holes" in it. If you're in a lower occupation class, Standard's Protector Platinum policy has a good niche as it still offers policy language relatively comparable to Guardian, but for occupations that Guardian won't even consider insuring.

semperlux wrote:QUESTIONS for the others:

1. Emergency physician is occupation class 3M right?

2. Always wanted to know if the rates I'm getting are fair or not. Does the $500 monthly premium for $10k monthly coverage sound about right, or have I been taken for a ride?

1. With Guardian, yes. ER docs are 4A-M with Principal. However, the specialty definition of disability is very important for ER docs and Principal does not have any such specialty language.

2. Sounds about right for an ER doc with $10k/mo depending on the policy's riders, gender, and what state you're in. Hopefully you have FIO's left that max out to $16k/mo.

semperlux · Post by **semperlux** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:39 pm

BruDude wrote:
semperlux wrote:QUESTIONS for the others:

1. Emergency physician is occupation class 3M right?

2. Always wanted to know if the rates I'm getting are fair or not. Does the $500 monthly premium for $10k monthly coverage sound about right, or have I been taken for a ride?
1. With Guardian, yes. ER docs are 4A-M with Principal. However, the specialty definition of disability is very important for ER docs and Principal does not have any such specialty language.

2. Sounds about right for an ER doc with $10k/mo depending on the policy's riders, gender, and what state you're in. Hopefully you have FIO's left that max out to $16k/mo.

Thank-you BruDude. I figured if rads & hospitalists are 4M, EM & other surgical based specialties likely belong in 3M, though EM is more in the middle of the two. I agree Guardian has better specialty definition language than many others. Northwestern Mutual's is not bad either.

My policy is for male nonsmoker without pre-existing conditions in the 30-35 year old bracket in Ca with Cola & FIO riders maxing out at $15K at age 55 with no medical necessary.

BruDude · Post by **BruDude** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:42 pm

semperlux wrote:Thank-you BruDude. I figured if rads & hospitalists are 4M, EM & other surgical based specialties likely belong in 3M, though EM is more in the middle of the two. I agree Guardian has better specialty definition language than many others. Northwestern Mutual's is not bad either.

My policy is for male nonsmoker without pre-existing conditions in the 30-35 year old bracket in Ca with Cola & FIO riders maxing out at $15K at age 55 with no medical necessary.

NWM's policy isn't in the same league as the other top policies. Any medical occupation with surgical duties is going to be a 3M with Guardian. Hopefully you have the residual rider (called Partial Disabilty Rider in CA), otherwise you really need to review your coverage...that is by far the most important rider and nobody should buy a DI policy without it, especially with a medical/high income occupation.

Zeppcoustic · Post by **Zeppcoustic** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:14 am

semperlux wrote:My wife's DI policy includes a maternity leave coverage which pays a percentage of her usual income while she's off from maternity leave. That's pretty sweet.

Bru - can you expound on this? Is this a worthwhile and/or standard policy addition? I did not consider this. Are elimination periods variable for such a rider?

BruDude · Post by **BruDude** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:10 am

Zeppcoustic wrote:
semperlux wrote:My wife's DI policy includes a maternity leave coverage which pays a percentage of her usual income while she's off from maternity leave. That's pretty sweet.
Bru - can you expound on this? Is this a worthwhile and/or standard policy addition? I did not consider this. Are elimination periods variable for such a rider?

That's probably on a group DI policy or some type of AFLAC supplemental thing. An individual DI policy will generally consider maternity to be the same as any other illness and the minimum elimination period for maternity is usually 90 days, even if the policy's elimination period is shorter. The same definition of disability would still apply to be considered a valid claim. Directly from Guardian's policy:

"Exclusions
We will not pay benefits for any Disability: during the first three months of Disability or the Elimination Period, if longer, that is caused by, contributed to, or which results from normal pregnancy or childbirth;"

MrMiyagi · Post by **MrMiyagi** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:43 pm

tag for later reading for myself.

semperlux · Post by **semperlux** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:47 am

BruDude wrote:Hopefully you have the residual rider (called Partial Disabilty Rider in CA), otherwise you really need to review your coverage...that is by far the most important rider and nobody should buy a DI policy without it, especially with a medical/high income occupation.

Definitely. It kicks in no matter what while temporarily disabled, and continues if income drops 15% for more than 1 year, then converts to total disability when income drops either 70% or 80% (I forget the exact number). It was a nice chunk of change adding the rider, but totally worth it & most important for the procedure oriented MD.

The only thing I don't like about my policy is the psych coverage limitation to 2 years, but I haven't seen any other policy that covers more than that without additional riders. Hopefully, our jobs won't come to that point. Hope to retire at 55 before I go insane hehe.

semperlux · Post by **semperlux** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:53 am

BruDude wrote:
Zeppcoustic wrote:
semperlux wrote:My wife's DI policy includes a maternity leave coverage which pays a percentage of her usual income while she's off from maternity leave. That's pretty sweet.
Bru - can you expound on this? Is this a worthwhile and/or standard policy addition? I did not consider this. Are elimination periods variable for such a rider?
That's probably on a group DI policy or some type of AFLAC supplemental thing. An individual DI policy will generally consider maternity to be the same as any other illness and the minimum elimination period for maternity is usually 90 days, even if the policy's elimination period is shorter. The same definition of disability would still apply to be considered a valid claim. Directly from Guardian's policy:

"Exclusions
We will not pay benefits for any Disability: during the first three months of Disability or the Elimination Period, if longer, that is caused by, contributed to, or which results from normal pregnancy or childbirth;"

That's a rider on my wife's policy. She works for a huge medical group (>100 partners) and the rider kicks in without any elimination period as long as you cannot work and are pregnant (eg OB's note putting one on strict bed rest due to high risk pregnancy or complcation). I personally think it was a discount the group negotiated for the women in the group.