Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

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Topic Author
HenryH
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Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by HenryH »

Bogleheads,

I am in my mid 20's living in CA currently employed with savings. I am looking to go into medical school starting Fall 2012 and stop working for the next 4 years. I will draw money out of my savings to pay for school.

Does anyone have a calculator for me to play around with to see 1) what salary and 2) number of years needed at this salary it would take as a physician to bypass my current and projected net worth?

Current salary: 135k + 3% yearly raise
Savings: 215k (assume 5% return)
Medical school: Year 1 (withdraw 60k), Year 2 (withdraw 60k), Year 3 (withdraw 60k), Year 4 (withdraw 35k + go 25k in debt at 6.8%)
Resident salary: 55k + 3% raise for 6 years while paying off debt above ASAP


Projected salary at new career needed to overcome current net worth: ?
Years needed to work at new career to overcome current net worth: ?

Thanks!

PS - My decision to enter medical school is not based exclusively on finances. I understand that those who wish to make big money choose other careers. I have sound humanistic reasons for this career change. I would just like to see how the numbers factor into an already made decision. Simply, I am looking for some calculations.
Last edited by HenryH on Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
tphp99
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Re: Back to School - Financially Worth It?

Post by tphp99 »

Congrats on acceptance to med school. Congrats on doing so well so in your 20s (what are you doing if I may ask?). I can tell you it was worth it for me, but I wasn't doing as well as you in my late 20s when I went back to school.

It will be virtually impossible to calculate if the move would be financially worth it as there is no way for you to predict your future income if you switch or stay in your current career. You would have to make some assumptions/guesses and go with your instinct.

Sounds like you'll do well regardless based on your record thus far. Good luck with your decision.
milestogo
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Re: Back to School - Financially Worth It?

Post by milestogo »

Consider changing post title to go back to MED school--you will get lots of replies!
You are making good money so if you go back you really need to be able to endure being a student/resident with a restricted budget for 10 years. I am ok with the way it all worked out for me but it is a long haul so only do it for good reasons not just the money. It is amazing taking care of people but you sacrifice a lot to get there when you are already doing quite well financially.
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sweep the leg
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Re: Back to School - Financially Worth It?

Post by sweep the leg »

HenryH wrote:Bogleheads,

I am in my mid 20's living in CA currently employed with savings. I am looking to go into medical school starting Fall 2012 and stop working for the next 4 years. I will draw money out of my savings to pay for school.

Does anyone have a calculator for me to play around with to see 1) what salary and 2) number of years needed at this salary it would take as a physician to bypass my current and projected net worth?

Current salary: 135k + 3% yearly raise
Savings: 215k (assume 5% return)
Medical school: Year 1 (withdraw 60k), Year 2 (withdraw 60k), Year 3 (withdraw 60k), Year 4 (withdraw 35k + go 25k in debt at 6.8%)
Resident salary: 55k + 3% raise for 6 years while paying off debt above ASAP


Projected salary at new career needed to overcome current net worth: ?
Years needed to work at new career to overcome current net worth: ?

Thanks!

PS - My decision to enter medical school is not based exclusively on finances. I understand that those who wish to make big money choose other careers. I have sound humanistic reasons for this career change. I would just like to see how the numbers factor into an already made decision. Simply, I am looking for some calculations.
There's a good chance that after medical school & residency, you will lose all "humanistic reasons" or motivations. And the landscape is too unpredictable to determine a salary for a single specialty when you graduate. A "physician salary" does not mean anything. Do you have a family? Planning on starting one? Ready for a change in lifestyle of at least 7 years? Those are more important questions.
SGM
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Re: Back to School - Financially Worth It?

Post by SGM »

I left a good job and make about 5.5 x what I made in prior career. As I left my job for med school later in life there is less time to make up for the 4 years of tuition and no income, and the puny residency salary. I went more or less solo and kept practice expenses down very low or my income would be very much smaller. I also worked many weekends, sometimes 2 or 3 in a row for a while.

Some financial downers included lack of 401k and IRAs for 4 years and low salary for 3 years of residency. Also my pension with my former company is very small, because of fewer years of employment. The financial plusses include being my own boss and being able to employ my wife and to put more aside for retirement than I would have as an employee.

I might have been scrambling for a new career anyway if my former company forced me out as they did for so many of my coworkers in 2000.

However, the major motivating factor for me was the chance to make a difference to my patients. I have enjoyed many aspects of primary care. My low overhead has allowed me to spend more time with patients and families and make more than the typical PMD. I might have made more with physician extenders, but I did not want to be a businessman and I did not want the risk of employees and depending on others.

It has been a privilege to be able to study medicine and then to practice it the way I wanted. The independence of my practice may be taken away by corporate medicine, but that is okay as I have accomplished everything I wanted and have had a very satisfying practice. Good luck to you. I think you will find med school exciting. A lot of docs seem bitter, but it has not been my experience at all.
"Let us endeavor, so to live, that when we die, even the undertaker will be sorry." Mark Twain
awval999
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Re: Back to School - Financially Worth It?

Post by awval999 »

Just did some quick math. You have to realize these are all assumptions. Obviously this choice isn't about money, how could it be? You seem to be living a pretty nice life as it is.....

I assumed 3% inflation. So I changed your expected return to a real return of 2% on your $215K savings over 18 years = $300K
I assumed $135K current salary with no real raise and a $200K current salary for an "average" MD with no real raise.
After your hellacious California taxes (I used an online net pay calculator) I get:
Current $135K job is after-tax, post max $17K 401K net pay of $78000
"Average MD" $200K job is after-tax, post max $17K 401K net pay of $117000
Net pay difference = $39K/year

Just to break even to get to your 2% real-adjusted savings after 10 years (med school + residency) will take 8 years post graduation. Or 18 years from today.

Of course you will be taking a huge standard of living cut in the next 10 years, and then adjust back to normal for the next 8 years, and then, after 18 years from today you will be at greater earning/savings net worth than today. Of course this is all based on assumptions of a real salary of $135K in perpetuity and an "average MD" real salary of $200K in perpetuity. I know some MD's make more and some less. Of course we don't know the future, Medicare, Obamacare, etc.

To answer your question: No, it's not financially worth it. It will take 18 years, immense struggles, long hours, and unbearable stress. But I hope you already knew that.
TheEternalVortex
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Re: Back to School - Financially Worth It?

Post by TheEternalVortex »

Does your $60k for med school include your other expenses? Or is that just extra expenses? I'm assuming the latter.
TheEternalVortex
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Re: Back to School - Financially Worth It?

Post by TheEternalVortex »

Here is a Google Doc I made:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0ZKcGxneFE

You can customize the assumptions. With the ones I am using you basically never break even on NW. But a big part of it is what your expenses are and how you expect your salaries to grow in your two careers.
awval999
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Re: Back to School - Financially Worth It?

Post by awval999 »

TheEternalVortex wrote:Here is a Google Doc I made:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0ZKcGxneFE

You can customize the assumptions. With the ones I am using you basically never break even on NW. But a big part of it is what your expenses are and how you expect your salaries to grow in your two careers.
Mathematics. Brutal but honest. Excellent spreadsheet by the way, maybe it will make the OP reconsider.
p14175
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Re: Back to School - Financially Worth It?

Post by p14175 »

Does the med school guarantee that your tuition will not increase? Just asking. I recently completed my MS. I was in grad school for less than 2 years and over that time the cost of the program (tuition and fees) increased by almost 40%. I wanted to stay the full 2 years, but had to fast-track the program in order to stay within my budget.
Topic Author
HenryH
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by HenryH »

@ tphp99
Thanks for the congratulations. I am actually in a somewhat related field already because I am a pharmacist. Since you are in the medical field the salary of a pharmacist might not surprise you. However, for many non-health care people, I've found that they are quite unaware of this fact.

Good point regarding the assumptions. I assume that physician salaries will be above those of pharmacists. I assume that I would not be able to be a pharmacist for another 40 years due to lack of interest. As with all assumptions, I could be wrong. But I feel comfortable making this seemingly logical bet. In addition, it would be an even more egregious error to not take a chance to pursue my passion and satisfy my intellectual curiosity.
Topic Author
HenryH
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Re: Back to School - Financially Worth It?

Post by HenryH »

milestogo wrote:Consider changing post title to go back to MED school--you will get lots of replies!
You are making good money so if you go back you really need to be able to endure being a student/resident with a restricted budget for 10 years. I am ok with the way it all worked out for me but it is a long haul so only do it for good reasons not just the money. It is amazing taking care of people but you sacrifice a lot to get there when you are already doing quite well financially.
Changes made. Thanks.

Thanks for reminding me of the long haul and the sacrifice it requires. By no means am I trying to say I've endured something as arduous as medical school, I do have some experience in pharmacy school. I gladly chose to spend my 18-24 life studying mechanism of actions, chemical structures and doses while others spent more time traveling, drinking, spending more time with significant others etc. Perhaps I won't want to do this all again - and on a much longer and harder road - but I want to try.

I've realized and accept two unique character traits that might serve me well in med school: I am able to work for a very long period of time and I enjoy being challenged and tested. This isn't like I can study for 3 straight hours! It is more like working 18 straight days and then hiking Half Dome in Yosemite on 3 hours of sleep and a can of Red Bull. In terms of being challenged I'm not talking about doing Sudoku puzzles. I'm talking about learning (and eventually becoming relatively fluent) in Spanish while feeling like a total infant at first. Or moving 2000 miles away from home to learn about new cultures and differing values. I'm not bragging, I'm just commenting on how I have come to recognize and develop these personality traits.
Topic Author
HenryH
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by HenryH »

@ sweep the leg

You are certainly right in thinking I might lose all the pure reasons to enter into medical school. I guess we'll have to see how it all ends up.

When I looked at salaries I just took the average for the ones today and then added 3% interest per year to them. This might not be true in the future. Heck, it might be a mistake to do that to a pharmacist salary as well. Such are predictions, right?

Right now I am single and do not have a family. I would entertain the idea of starting one later on. I feel comfortable making this switch since the consequences only affect me.

I believe I am ready for a change in lifestyle for the next 10 years. Am I asking to be happy for that decade? No. Do I hope it will be worth it? As nebulous as that sounds, yes. I don't engage in activities for purely hedonistic reasons. I am willing to delay a bit of enjoyment for something greater and longer lasting. And besides, I took 2 years away from school to l-i-v-e. It has been enjoyable. And after the respite, I am re-engergized to start again. Besides, I can still take enjoyment in the smaller joys of my day as well as take pleasure in knowing I will be able to become proficient in something pretty special.
robocop
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by robocop »

I just wanted to suggest something. I'm not sure how your FAFSA will look, but wanted to suggest that instead of waiting until your 3rd/4th year to take out a 6.8% loan, to instead look every year to see if you can find lower rate loans. For example, you may be able to refinance your car and take out a loan at 1.99% (as I just did to pay off a student loan). I have heard of some crazy fixed-rate private loans these days, so just keep your eyes out and of course be mindful of all the risks (i.e. car loan payments will be higher because loan will be shorter term, private loans may not have same deferment protections, etc.).

I would also echo the comment about assuming tuition will rise. The same thing happened to me in law school- tuition was raised about 10k a year in the 3 years I was there.

You may want to look into opening a 529 plan for yourself. I think you might be able to squirrel away at least some of your savings to get a state tax deduction, and there may be other advantages as well (on how it is treated on FAFSA, which may affect your ability to get subsidized loans, etc). I don't know much about 529s though, so please do some careful research on the pros and cons.

Congrats and good luck!
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Frobie
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by Frobie »

I'm a pharmacist too. Faculty, actually. And I've worked pretty extensively with pharmacy, medical, and nursing students over the years.

I think in the end it comes down to whether you want to be a pharmacist or a physician. If you really want to be a physician, you should go to medical school. The calculations that folks have done on this thread show that, while it probably won't be a great move financially, it also is unlikely to be disastrous.

But since you've already spent the time and effort to get as far as you have, are you sure that you've adequately explored the different options within your own profession? If the answer is yes and you're pretty sure you're not up for 25-40 more years of doing what you're doing, then you should go to medical school IMHO. But there might be something else out there in the pharmacy world you would find satisfying that would require minimal additional training, at least in comparison to med school + residency.
I have learned that success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as by the obstacles which he has had to overcome while trying to succeed. --Booker T. Washington
dhodson
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by dhodson »

this is an impossible calculation. nobody knows what medicine will be like from a reimbursement standpoint after you finish residency which will be at least 7 years from when starting school. Even if one used current salaries, one can not predict which specialty you will be in. some of the higher paid specialties are very hard to get into and even the very best dont always get a shot at them. I wouldnt assume making more than 200k per year (in todays dollars) with any financial calculation.
DTSC
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by DTSC »

This is a tough call. It really depends on what you want to do with your medical degree and what humanistic things you want to do. You're planning on 6 year of residency, so I assume you want to do a surgical specialty or internal medicine subspecialty.

As someone with a PhD who then went into medicine, I just don't see how the finances would work in your favor, even if we assume that future doctor salaries will be similar to what they are now.

You are in your mid 20's but already managed to save up $200K, so you are probably saving $40 or even 50K per year. So just the opportunity cost of not working as a pharmacist during 4 years of medical school will be anywhere from $160-200K of savings. That is before you spend another $200K on tuition. Then there is more opportunity cost of lower salaries while in residency.

There is no guarantee you'll get the residency/specialty that you want or practice In a location where you want, for the pay that you want. There are pharmacy jobs in any state.

With some exceptions, the specialists who are paid a lot, also tend to have to work a lot, so it might not leave you much time to do much else. And then you'll be in your mid-30's trying to rebuild your retirement savings from scratch, so your finances might limit your time and ability to do humanistic things. No offense against pharmacists, but few pharmacists get called to go to the hospital in the middle of the night. Few pharmacists get sue. Both of these tend to decrease one's humanism.

Or you can be a 30 year old pharmacist sitting on $400K of savings. You can retire quite early on that sum and then go do a bunch of humanistic (albeit not necessarily medical) things.

To each his own; but IMHO, the money just doesn't work out.
AP/CP
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by AP/CP »

DTSC wrote:There is no guarantee you'll get the residency/specialty that you want or practice In a location where you want, for the pay that you want. There are pharmacy jobs in any state.

......

Or you can be a 30 year old pharmacist sitting on $400K of savings. You can retire quite early on that sum and then go do a bunch of humanistic (albeit not necessarily medical) things.

To each his own; but IMHO, the money just doesn't work out.
I agree with much of what has been said by others above. If you must do this, great, go for it, but really be sure you have to. Do you hate pharmacy so much? I went straight through college...med. school...4 year residency and so was 30 when I first got a real job. I had a negative net worth at that point. As pointed out above, you could probably retire in your 40's if you just keep going. But that might not interest you, so do what will make you happy.

Others have said that we don't have any idea what will happen to physician reimbursement down the road. I don't know either, but I think the odds of it falling are far, far greater than the reverse. Reimbursement for the "bread and butter" fee code in my field has been cut in half since the mid 90's (way before I was practicing). I don't think it's safe to assume that you will make more as a physician in 10 years than you otherwise would have had you stayed in pharmacy. That's not to say you won't, but it's not guaranteed.

The location point made above is also important. I don't know what the pharmacy job market is like, but some fields in medicine require you to spread a pretty wide geographic net in order to find the job you want.
beareconomy
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by beareconomy »

Since you are in California, I looked up the starting salary for an anesthesiologist and found the rate for kaiser to be 125 dollars per hour. What is your rate as a pharmacist. I would bet it is at least half. With decrease reinforcements, I dont think med school would be the best financial decision. The cost to borrow money is terribly high at 6.8 percent. If I were you I would stick to pharmacy unless you really love medicine.
am
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by am »

Sounds like grass is greener. Pharmacy sounds like a good gig compared to most doctors. What an expensive, difficult painful road only to find out you will be in the same boat as before. Every dollar you earn as an MD over your career will be purely as a result of blood, sweat and tears. Those dollars you earn as an MD will not be the same type of dollars as others earn. So doing this for financial reasons is stupid. Doing this for prestige reasons is even worse.
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goggles
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by goggles »

As several people have pointed out, the finances will never be worth it. That's ok if it's what you want.

I wanted to suggest that in med school and possibly even residency that you work one day a week as a pharmacist. You could make $25k a year, which would substantially offset your expenses and cushion your savings. Lots of residents moonlight; why not do the same, but as a pharmacist?
DTSC
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by DTSC »

goggles wrote:As several people have pointed out, the finances will never be worth it. That's ok if it's what you want.

I wanted to suggest that in med school and possibly even residency that you work one day a week as a pharmacist. You could make $25k a year, which would substantially offset your expenses and cushion your savings. Lots of residents moonlight; why not do the same, but as a pharmacist?

Fewer and fewer residents can moonlight now. They want Board certification for everything. Definitely keep your pharmacist license active in case medicine doesn't pan out.
Deepsea
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by Deepsea »

Well I don't have to worry about getting into Med School.

Too stupid. I guess everything can be considered a plus or minus depending on how you look at it.
DTSC
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by DTSC »

Deepsea wrote:Well I don't have to worry about getting into Med School.

Too stupid. I guess everything can be considered a plus or minus depending on how you look at it.
Actually, people who don't go to medical school are too stupid, or too smart. There are certainly easier ways to make better money.
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fandango
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by fandango »

Most of the physicians whom I know would not go back through the rigors of medical school.

They cite:

Lost earnings
No life
High stress
Poor future prospects
am
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by am »

Most of the physicians whom I know would not go back through the rigors of medical school.

They cite:

Lost earnings
No life
High stress
Poor future prospects


I am sure that most prospective doctors will think it will be different for them and will not listen.

Medicine in most cases is a financial loser. The pay does not justify the sacrifices and living under constant stress, pressure and risk of being sued.
letsgobobby
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by letsgobobby »

two true stories.

First, a woman in her early 30s leaves a music career and goes back to med school. Takes out $200k in loans and some credit card debt. Goes into psychiatry (median salary $200k). Has a child as a single mom, marries child's father who is unsupportive. Between school loans and a mortgage she lives paycheck to paycheck. She is tired a lot, and life is very stressful. She has no savings and is underwater $100k on her house. She is now in her ~mid 40s.

Second, a man in his late 30s leaves a career as a PhD chemist and goes back to med school. Takes out minimal loans. Goes into anesthesiology (circuitious route) (median salary $350k). Married to a very supportive, stay at home wife. Frugal and works hard. Now in his 70s he is wealthy and loves his work.

Very different outcomes. Only you know which case you'll most resemble. Beware that declining reimbursements are a very real issue. Beware that pay-for-quality is here to stay.

In your case, if you think you are interested in, hard working enough, and smart enough to get into a high-paying specialty, it's proably worthwhile (financially). If you are interested in peds or primary care, probably not.
Ted Kan
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by Ted Kan »

Like you I was in my mid 20s, but married with two small children, when I decided to go to medical school. And like you I was making a very good income, in my case as a sales/marketing director. I needed to get the necessary undergrad courses, take the MCAT's, etc. and that took almost two years during which time we saved every penny and I mean every penny. Started med at age 28 completed my family practice residency at age 35 and went into academic medicine. I have never regretted that decision.

For me the only economic question was would I make enough income as a physician to justify the sacrifice I was asking my family to make. I knew I would not make as much as I was in sales but I also knew I wouldn't be able to maintain that high level of income as I grew older. It took about twelve years, maybe more, before my income as a physician equalled my final income in sales, adjusted for inflation. I did not worry about lost retirement savings and in my opinion neither should you as someone in your 20s. As I told my kids the best investment you can make is to invest in yourself.

If your dream is to be a physician I feel you should go for it. No one knows what the future will bring and focusing your decision on financial analysis is in my opinion not the best approach. You should want to be a physician so bad you can taste it! Otherwise stay in pharmacy and consoider getting a PharmD. I've worked with them and have been impressed with their knowledge and what they bring to patient care.

Medicine is a wonderful career but you should be prepared for years of hard work, long hours and sleepless nights. I can't predict how you'll feel after that but for me and the other married, older students I went to school with it's a decision none of us ever regretted.
DTSC
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by DTSC »

letsgobobby wrote:two true stories.

First, a woman in her early 30s leaves a music career and goes back to med school. Takes out $200k in loans and some credit card debt. Goes into psychiatry (median salary $200k). Has a child as a single mom, marries child's father who is unsupportive. Between school loans and a mortgage she lives paycheck to paycheck. She is tired a lot, and life is very stressful. She has no savings and is underwater $100k on her house. She is now in her ~mid 40s.

Second, a man in his late 30s leaves a career as a PhD chemist and goes back to med school. Takes out minimal loans. Goes into anesthesiology (circuitious route) (median salary $350k). Married to a very supportive, stay at home wife. Frugal and works hard. Now in his 70s he is wealthy and loves his work.

Very different outcomes. Only you know which case you'll most resemble. Beware that declining reimbursements are a very real issue. Beware that pay-for-quality is here to stay.

In your case, if you think you are interested in, hard working enough, and smart enough to get into a high-paying specialty, it's proably worthwhile (financially). If you are interested in peds or primary care, probably not.

What is key is the level of support you get from your spouse. IMO, it is very hard to maintain a 2 career family with one being a doctor, especially if you want to have kids and raise them yourself. Most doctor jobs are time-and-a-half. Of course, if you don't have a supportive spouse, you're screwed regardless of your line of work.
am
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by am »

if you think you are interested in, hard working enough, and smart enough to get into a high-paying specialty, it's proably worthwhile (financially)

There is risk here also since high paying specialties are being cut hard, especially radiology. Inflation is running what 2-3% yearly, but there are certainly no pay increases. When these students are out in the workforce, the salaries may be very different, certainly not higher than they are now except for primary care. Student loans will certainly not be any lower and likely higher. A big loser from a financial standpoint alone for the great majority of people with some exceptions. And for those idealists who think that humanistic concerns will trump everything else, this will certainly fade also and this will just be a job like anything else- guaranteed.
awval999
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by awval999 »

Henry, I am a pharmacist.

I assume you are in retail and you hate your job. If you have a PharmD why don't you apply for a residency? There are many pharmacy careers that are very clinical and you won't have to hang yourself with medical school. I work for a hospital. I don't mind going to work. Would I rather be sipping a Mai Tai on the beaches of Hawaii, sure, but I don't mind going to work. If you solely have just retail background you won't be able to get a "top-tier" residency but you will be able to get one, at least during the scramble, and you will be able to get a PGY-2 if you did a good job during PGY-1. If you have a PharmD you still have a doctorate degree, you still can put Dr. on your hotel reservations :)

Feel free to PM me. Obviously I have strong feelings on this. But if you are just burned out don't feel like you have to jump professions and financially stifle yourself for a decade.
travellight
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by travellight »

Here is a recent post discussing this topic: http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... =2&t=91188

I wonder if your humanism will hold up after all that sacrifice when you read the "anti-medicine rant" and perspective that others may have of those in medicine as illustrated in that thread.

btw, the analysis done earlier in this thread concluding that it was not worth it financially wasn't even taking into consideration the lost opportunity cost of not making your annual salary during the years of med school and training and the lost opportunity cost of investing your 60K per year that you will be depleting. (over 500K of salary you would have earned in 4 years of med school plus giving up 60k/year of savings or going into debt = 240K+; extrapolate the cumulative compounding effect of this).

It is a reasonable question to ask as you analyze all perspectives of this life changing decision. You may very well choose to still do it and I think it would be commendable either way but you will go in with eyes wide open that you are doing this for self-fulfillment and humanitarian reasons even if it is financially ill advised.
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yb
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by yb »

I'm currently in an MD/PhD program and whenever one of my classmates ask me about my tuition being covered, I tell them to live like a graduate student for four years after they graduate and they'll come out ahead. So to you, I say just live on a medical student's budget for 4 years, and then upgrade to a resident's salary for another four. Save the difference. Read Robbins in your spare time for fun if you're so inclined.

In my medical school, there were a lot of students who had left previous careers (including a pharmacist) and it seemed to be a good fit for many of them, but it was very individual. Many of them had left corporate jobs to become family doctors and loved primary care. I'm sure they took a substantial cut to do what they loved. Others, including the pharmacist, went for a high paying specialties and viewed it as purely career development. It can certainly work both ways, but unless you really want to be physician, I would not recommend it.

As awval999 has suggested, there are many opportunities within pharmacy that may offer you the clinical side that you are looking for or just offer another aspect to your career (hospital, industry, research) and all of them will be cheaper than going to medical school in terms of both time and money.

Good luck in your decision!

y
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by DTSC »

travellight wrote:Here is a recent post discussing this topic: http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... =2&t=91188

I wonder if your humanism will hold up after all that sacrifice when you read the "anti-medicine rant" and perspective that others may have of those in medicine as illustrated in that thread.

btw, the analysis done earlier in this thread concluding that it was not worth it financially wasn't even taking into consideration the lost opportunity cost of not making your annual salary during the years of med school and training and the lost opportunity cost of investing your 60K per year that you will be depleting. (over 500K of salary you would have earned in 4 years of med school plus giving up 60k/year of savings or going into debt = 240K+; extrapolate the cumulative compounding effect of this).

It is a reasonable question to ask as you analyze all perspectives of this life changing decision. You may very well choose to still do it and I think it would be commendable either way but you will go in with eyes wide open that you are doing this for self-fulfillment and humanitarian reasons even if it is financially ill advised.

A recent survey in the AMA Newsletter, I believe, showed that 46% of doctors would retire if they could. I don't know how this compares to other professions, but I suspect it is higher.
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by Nathan Drake »

Mid 20s, 135k salary, and 215k in savings? Doesn't add up.

Did your parents pay for Pharmacy school AND you graduated from pharmacy school at the age of 20?
Last edited by Nathan Drake on Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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sweep the leg
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by sweep the leg »

HenryH wrote:@ sweep the leg

You are certainly right in thinking I might lose all the pure reasons to enter into medical school. I guess we'll have to see how it all ends up.

When I looked at salaries I just took the average for the ones today and then added 3% interest per year to them. This might not be true in the future. Heck, it might be a mistake to do that to a pharmacist salary as well. Such are predictions, right?

Right now I am single and do not have a family. I would entertain the idea of starting one later on. I feel comfortable making this switch since the consequences only affect me.

I believe I am ready for a change in lifestyle for the next 10 years. Am I asking to be happy for that decade? No. Do I hope it will be worth it? As nebulous as that sounds, yes. I don't engage in activities for purely hedonistic reasons. I am willing to delay a bit of enjoyment for something greater and longer lasting. And besides, I took 2 years away from school to l-i-v-e. It has been enjoyable. And after the respite, I am re-engergized to start again. Besides, I can still take enjoyment in the smaller joys of my day as well as take pleasure in knowing I will be able to become proficient in something pretty special.
HenryH,
Re: reasons/motivations, I was probably having a particularly bad day when I said that, but the basic sentiment is true. Your starting this thread tells me that you are thinking about the money -- good for you; I wish I would've done the same. I don't fall into the "you have to be 100% dedicated to medicine to be a doctor" camp (is that a camp?) Importantly, you have to know what to expect from both a lifestyle and economics standpoint. After you understand, choose your specialty accordingly.

Re: salaries, there is too much volatility from specialty to specialty to make a prediction about your projected salary unless you choose the average family practice or pediatrics salary and assume everything else is a bonus. Of course, if you use those values, this conversation will be over soon. Much will also depending on upcoming legislation and how quickly or slowly the new laws roll out.

Your outlook is good, and you're asking all the right questions... good luck.
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by stoptothink »

Nathan Drake wrote:Mid 20s, 135k salary, and 215k in savings? Doesn't add up.

Did your parents pay for Pharmacy school AND you graduated from pharmacy school at the age of 20?
Seems to be a lot of those on this board doesn't it? But then again it is like comparing bench press numbers on a weightlifting forum.

From a financial standpoint, doesn't sound likely to pay off unless the OP went into a very high-paying specialty or worked well past retirement age. With that level of savings and salary, at such a young age in a stable field, unless I was slitting my wrists at work I wouldn't ever consider a profession change.
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by 6miths »

Definitely not going to pay off financially with the numbers you are pulling down now. But then there is more to life than finances aren't there. Good advice above. You shouldn't be making this decision based on the dollars and cents. If you do, you will be making it for the very worst reason and will wind up potentially very unhappy no matter what your financial statements say. Good luck on your chosen path.
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by White Coat Investor »

I think it would have been very hard to be a med student or a resident knowing there was something else I could do immediately and make a 6 figure salary. Are you prepared to make less than $10 an hour again? For years?
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by andrewj »

At the end of the day, becoming a physician isn't totally about financial worth, since the satisfaction of caring for patients, etc., as hokey as it may sound, makes up the difference.
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by Dave76 »

I'd look into a Physician Assistant program.
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by drspaz »

What it all comes down to . . . is you must LOVE medicine. I am a pediatrican (we make the lowest salary). After all the schooling, 80-100 hour weeks in residency, you must love what you do. I think there are easier ways to make money, but this is my calling. I still get called out of bed 2 am for a crash c-section or a code, and I go in not because I might get paid, but because I am needed and their is a child in danger. But that aside, there are other ways to use an MD degree. You mentioned the pharmcy degree. Pharmaceutical companies employ physicians to carry out studies, to talk to other physicans, to hold conferences, to educate the reps. You can do hospital adminstration (though Chief of Staff is not fun when we fight over the call schedule). Also, working in rural area provides loan repayment. Some employers have programs to help repay your loans or you can ask for that in your contract. In the end, I think medical school pays for itself, if it is your calling. Most physicans will consolidate the loans over 30 yrs to cut the payment, and now have something left over to invest. If you specialize, your salary will easily cover the payment. But if you go into medicine, for the financial security alone, you may survive medical school, but residency will eat you alive. I've seen it.
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by czeckers »

To answer your question, from the position of an anesthesiologist, it is definitely not worth it financially. During med school and residency you will lose 7-10 years of your current salary. You will also wipe out your substantial savings and lose a decade of compounding. In addition, medical school and residency take their toll physically and emotionally. Finally, you will end up in a career where hospital or practice administrators, nurse managers, insurance companies, attorneys and the government dictate to you how you should practice and what you should earn.

The problem with medicine is that you have to try to help patients in spite of all these things. You really have to love what you do to put up with a significant loss of autonomy and still be happy.

Financially you will sacrifice over 1 million dollars between income not earned and the cost of medical school. Add to that the loss of compounding on your savings and additional contributions that you won't get to make and you will likely lose another million or more in your savings at retirement.

Financially it is a huge loss for someone in your position. However, more concerning is that apart from an altruistinc want to help people, I don't really get a sense that you know what it is like to be a physician. I suggest you spend time with some physicians and really get to see what they do. Not just the patient care, but also the record keeping, billing, phone calls, etc. See how much time, production, administrative, and medicilegal pressures there are. See how many hours, nights, weekends, holidays you spend at work and cannot spend with family. You need to be absolutely certain that you will be happy as a physician.

I love what I do, and am luckily quite removed from the billing side of things. However, for me, the beaurocratic stresses are far greater than the fact that what I do day in and day out is extremely lethal. I don't want to discourage you, but you need to see that medicine is not what it is perceived to be by the public.

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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by Dave76 »

czeckers wrote:
The problem with medicine is that you have to try to help patients in spite of all these things. You really have to love what you do to put up with a significant loss of autonomy and still be happy.
And many patients don't listen to their doctors.
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by grap0013 »

Why don't you get a hospital decentral pharmacist position where you can attend daily bedside rounds? You get to work closely with physicians and still have a large impact on patient care through making drug therapy recommendations (afterall, you are the drug specialist), therapeutic drug monitoring, teaching students (both pharmacy and medical), etc... Great pay, feels like you are doing something good, AND you have much less liability than a physician. I think it would be wiser to explore other avenues in pharmacy. By your high salary, my money says you are in retail pharmacy. I'd go crazy too. Do a 1 year hospital pharmacy residency make about 40K, then get a clinical hospital job making 120K. Scratch the, "something more stimulating and meaningful" itch this way rather than med school. Also, go shadow some physicians and see what it is really like.
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Re: Back to School - Financially Worth It?

Post by DVMResident »

awval999 wrote:To answer your question: No, it's not financially worth it. It will take 18 years, immense struggles, long hours, and unbearable stress. But I hope you already knew that.[/b]
^ This plus I'd like to stress the fact it isn't just 10 years of 60-80 hours/week work, it's 10 years of living in random cities. Med school in Los Angeles for 4 years, internship in Boston for 1 year, and maybe 5 year residency in New York. You're only social circle are medical people.

It's all consuming and disruptive to any life you've built so far. Make sure you love medicine before you start.

Personally, I'd recommend finding another outlet your compassion and humanitarian drive. My guess is you have a great set of skills if you're doing so well working now and those skills can help people in need, even if it's not medicine.
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by iceman99 »

I love medicine. I could live without the call, though.
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by oski99 »

Of course...

You could go all crazy and apply for military sponsorship at some level, even try to get into USUHS. There the school is fiscally free (for the price of your service) plus you draw an active duty salary. Check the base pay for an O-1 plus Bethesda BAH, and it's a lot better than (-)$240K over four years.

The HPSP folks don't seem to have it too bad: school is paid for, you get a stipend, then active duty resident pay generally beats civilian residency pay, and the payback is minimal compared with the USUHS or poor souls who are paying both undergraduate and medical undergraduate payback.

Yes, there's a war on, and lots of doctors have been deployed, even repeatedly, but if you're looking to make a strictly financial argument for attending medical school, you won't find another school or scholarship that comes out ahead in the argument.
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by bertie wooster »

stoptothink wrote:
Nathan Drake wrote:Mid 20s, 135k salary, and 215k in savings? Doesn't add up.

Did your parents pay for Pharmacy school AND you graduated from pharmacy school at the age of 20?
Seems to be a lot of those on this board doesn't it? But then again it is like comparing bench press numbers on a weightlifting forum.

From a financial standpoint, doesn't sound likely to pay off unless the OP went into a very high-paying specialty or worked well past retirement age. With that level of savings and salary, at such a young age in a stable field, unless I was slitting my wrists at work I wouldn't ever consider a profession change.
I think that's a bit snarky. So what if he/she comes from money. There's nothing wrong with that and certainly nothing to be ashamed of.
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Re: Back to Med School - Financially Worth It?

Post by bertie wooster »

letsgobobby wrote:two true stories.

First, a woman in her early 30s leaves a music career and goes back to med school. Takes out $200k in loans and some credit card debt. Goes into psychiatry (median salary $200k). Has a child as a single mom, marries child's father who is unsupportive. Between school loans and a mortgage she lives paycheck to paycheck. She is tired a lot, and life is very stressful. She has no savings and is underwater $100k on her house. She is now in her ~mid 40s.

Second, a man in his late 30s leaves a career as a PhD chemist and goes back to med school. Takes out minimal loans. Goes into anesthesiology (circuitious route) (median salary $350k). Married to a very supportive, stay at home wife. Frugal and works hard. Now in his 70s he is wealthy and loves his work.

Very different outcomes. Only you know which case you'll most resemble. Beware that declining reimbursements are a very real issue. Beware that pay-for-quality is here to stay.

In your case, if you think you are interested in, hard working enough, and smart enough to get into a high-paying specialty, it's proably worthwhile (financially). If you are interested in peds or primary care, probably not.
I think the main takeaway here is that the partner one chooses in life has a profound impact on quality of life and financial security. Also in the first example it seems like she chose the wrong person and the wrong time to get pregnant (and it seems to be unplanned). That will also have a profound impact on quality of life and financial security.
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