Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

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zaboomafoozarg
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by zaboomafoozarg »

bottlecap wrote:Has anyone figured out that the OP is a troll, yet?

Although he asked to discuss this, he doesnt want to. Let him alone.

JT
LOL yeah, I checked all his other posts after responding to this one. Trollin' down the river, like a boss.
cacophony
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by cacophony »

nwrolla wrote:I find it pretty interesting to blow a Honda motor, I owned one for years, worked on it and many others and I have seen some Honda's beat to death and they still ran like a top What type of check engine lights was it throwing? O2 sensors commonly go out; Easy fix generally if you know how it could be less than 100$
autozone will pull codes for any car if you have a check engine light, with some research and a manual it can save thousands in the long run.
Good advice. You could also take it a step further and buy your own OBDII code reader for $30.

Plug reader in to pull code.
Type code into google.
Find out that your gas cap needs to be tightened.
Invest the $500 you saved in an low cost index fund. :D
Dandy
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by Dandy »

I'm a buy new and hold type guy - sometimes buy used and hold. I usually keep cars for 10 years or 100k miles. My current "fleet" is a 2001 Altima (65k), 2004 Civic (87k) and 2005 Camry (52k). I have had no major repairs.

I think that leasing will almost always cost more over a lifetime of driving ,but there is also a quality of life factor.

If you have had bad experiences with holding onto cars and repair bills get you angry and you get lots of satisfaction and peace of mind from driving a new car every couple of years -- you may be better off leasing. It somewhat smooths out the costs and the costs maybe more predictable. and, even if it costs more -- you will be happier (and so will your car dealer).

When Consumer's Reports explains that leasing costs less than buying I'll have to give it more thought. When people base it on some bad experiences I have some doubts. But, quality of life factors are important just make sure you can afford it.
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jeffyscott
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by jeffyscott »

cacophony wrote:
jeffyscott wrote:Looking at that edmunds true cost to own again, they have a 2006 Civic, 4 door LX auto, valued at $8900. They have depreciation at $4187 over the next 5 years, 75,000 miles. Add the repair and maintenance costs of $6952 and the total is $185 per month
Those numbers are rather absurd.

There's no reason a five year old Honda should require more than $2500 in maintenance and repairs over 5 years. I spent less than $2500 over 5 years on a 15 year old Corolla, and that included timing belt replacement and a full brake job.
Okay, edmunds numbers are absurd and should be rejected, based on your anecdote.

I'm not a handyman and don't have special connections to a "guy", so I am paying normal parts prices and normal labor rates ($70-100 per hour). My experience has been that older cars cost about 8 cents per mile for repairs and maintenance. My experience and edmunds figures seems to be in line with a lot of other sources of average costs.

Here is another reference that suggests $1200 per year, which would be about 10 cents per mile based on 12,000 miles per year: http://www.fivecentnickel.com/2009/11/0 ... intenance/

I have an old copy of the cartalk guys (whose website you have recommended) "how to buy a used car", they also estimate $1200 per year for maintenance and repair costs on an older car. They used 13,000 miles per year and a labor rate of only $50 per hour (the copyright on the brochure is 1996).
The two greatest enemies of the equity fund investor are expenses and emotions. ― John C. Bogle
cacophony
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by cacophony »

jeffyscott wrote:
cacophony wrote:
jeffyscott wrote:Looking at that edmunds true cost to own again, they have a 2006 Civic, 4 door LX auto, valued at $8900. They have depreciation at $4187 over the next 5 years, 75,000 miles. Add the repair and maintenance costs of $6952 and the total is $185 per month
Those numbers are rather absurd.

There's no reason a five year old Honda should require more than $2500 in maintenance and repairs over 5 years. I spent less than $2500 over 5 years on a 15 year old Corolla, and that included timing belt replacement and a full brake job.
Okay, edmunds numbers are absurd and should be rejected, based on your anecdote.

I'm not a handyman and don't have special connections to a "guy", so I am paying normal parts prices and normal labor rates ($70-100 per hour). My experience has been that older cars cost about 8 cents per mile for repairs and maintenance. My experience and edmunds figures seems to be in line with a lot of other sources of average costs.
It's less of an anecdote and more of common sense based on knowledge of what needs to be done and what it costs. BTW, the shop I go to charges an hourly rate of $125. But they're also competent and honest. If you're paying 8 cents per mile to maintain a 5 year old Honda or Toyota you need to find a new mechanic and stop going to the dealership for their recommended $400 engine flush.
jeffyscott wrote:I have an old copy of the cartalk guys (whose website you have recommended) "how to buy a used car", they also estimate $1200 per year for maintenance and repair costs on an older car. They used 13,000 miles per year and a labor rate of only $50 per hour (the copyright on the brochure is 1996).
How old of a used car? What type of used car? If they're talking about a mid 80's 12 cylinder Ferrari it's going to be a lot more than that. I fully expect that a 10 year old BMW or Porsche or Mercedes or Audi would cost that much. But a Honda or Toyota that's 5 years old? :roll:
Besides, reliability has increased over the last 20 years so numbers from 1996 (that are based on cars from the late 80's/early 90's) probably aren't that useful.
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by jeffyscott »

cacophony wrote:It's less of an anecdote and more of common sense based on knowledge of what needs to be done and what it costs.
It is an anecdote because you are relying on your experience with a single old car to generalize. You assume your experience equals the average, rather than assuming that you have merely been lucky.
If you're paying 8 cents per mile to maintain a 5 year old Honda or Toyota you need to find a new mechanic and stop going to the dealership for their recommended $400 engine flush.
Yes, of course anyone whose experience differs from yours must be a complete idiot.

The figures were for a 6 year old car, so years 7-12 and probably going from about 90K miles to 165K in edmunds case, since they assume 15K mi per year. I never identified the makes and models that I have owned. I only noted that my experience, based on 25 years of records, with various vehicles has been in line with the costs estimated by several other sources (edmunds, car talk, fivecentnickel). I too have had some old cars that have cost very little, that does not make that the norm or the average, it means I got lucky once or twice.

One of my kids got lucky with his first used car and has only had oil changes, tires, and brakes over the 5 years he has owned it. Another kid had a very bad experience with his first used car, spending well above that $1200 per year average for 3 years. Another kid took over my old car, which I had bought used and had been about average for me, she drove it for 5 years and 50-60K mi with only normal maintenance and one ~$500 repair.
How old of a used car? What type of used car?
Car talk figure was for a generic car for years 7-10, and since they assume 13K mi/yr, it would be for about 80-130K mi.
Besides, reliability has increased over the last 20 years so numbers from 1996 (that are based on cars from the late 80's/early 90's) probably aren't that useful.
Except that was also based on a $50 per hour labor rate, so it probably comes out about right, anyway. In addition, it is in line with the two other sources.
The two greatest enemies of the equity fund investor are expenses and emotions. ― John C. Bogle
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by cacophony »

Jeffyscott, we're not talking about random cars here, we're talking about a 5 year old Civic. Do you have experience with a 2006 Civic? Either way the majority of your post is purely anecdotal as well. What real evidence either of us have? Just because Edmunds is a big site doesn't make the numbers accurate.
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by cacophony »

jeffyscott wrote: The figures were for a 6 year old car, so years 7-12 and probably going from about 90K miles to 165K in edmunds case, since they assume 15K mi per year.
So year 9 would be 120k - 135k? On the Edmunds True Cost to Own site they list that year (which they call year 3 for the 2006 Civic) as requiring $1,172 in maintenance. Yet if you use their own maintenance calculator over that period you get

120k service - $383
130k service - $105
135k service - $80

For a total of $568

http://www.edmunds.com/car-maintenance/ ... age=105000

So their two tools report wildly different numbers. These lower numbers seem about accurate for taking your car to the dealership for service.
Last edited by cacophony on Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by jeffyscott »

I think the difference is the lower figures are for scheduled maintenance only, the "true cost to own" maintenance cost includes unscheduled maintenance as well:

http://www.edmunds.com/about/more-about-tco.html

Maintenance

This is the estimated expense of the two types of maintenance: scheduled and unscheduled. Scheduled maintenance is the performance of factory-recommended items at periodic mileage and/or calendar intervals. Unscheduled maintenance includes wheel alignment and the replacement of items such as the battery, brakes, headlamps, hoses, exhaust system parts, taillight/turn signal bulbs, tires and wiper blades/inserts. Estimated tire replacement costs are supplied to Edmunds.com by The Tire Rack, Inc.
The two greatest enemies of the equity fund investor are expenses and emotions. ― John C. Bogle
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by cacophony »

Ok, that makes sense. The numbers still seem awfully high to me, but I guess if you go to the dealership for everything it really adds up (especially with all OEM parts).
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by HomerJ »

InsideTheCult wrote:Actually, my experience is pretty par for the course.
At least half these cars sustain major damage before 150k miles.

All my life, I just assumed "new car = TOTAL waste of money"
I was a fool to just ASSUME leasing is reckless and wasteful, without ever researching into it myself.
Because spending $8000 driving a beater for 4 years is even dumber.

These cars need regular maintenance once they reach 80k miles.
People only focus on the $700+ timing belt/water pump job at 100k.
But, these days, ANY repair is $400 to $600 in NY.

I've been a frugal used car driver my entire life, but owning is really not worth it anymore.
I'm joining the "idiots" who drive MUCH nicer cars for just a few bucks more.

Sometimes, you need to know when to spend a little more for a LOT more value
There's a difference between being a miser and being frugal / responsible. The miser doesn't know value.
If you can live in a studio apt in the ghetto for $700, or live in a gated luxury condo for $750, only the miser/idiot chooses the former.
Owing a jalopy for $166/mo vs. a brand new car for a few bucks more is a no brainer.

And yes, my experience is par for the course.
I am the only idiot in my peer group still driving shitboxes like it's the 1970s.
Everyone else figured this out years ago, but I was the smug idiot who thought I was "saving".
Screw that, a new car for an extra $500 year is the best $500 you'll ever spend.
Hi Welcome. Joining a Internet community as a new member and immediately going off an insane rant is pretty strange. Imagine walking into a party with a bunch of strangers, and immediately launching into a tirade like the one above.

I'm not going to bother trying to correct your misperceptions. Feel free to lease a car for the rest of your life, making payments every month for the next 50 years. If that makes you happy, so be it.
Last edited by HomerJ on Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by HomerJ »

bottlecap wrote:Has anyone figured out that the OP is a troll, yet?

Although he asked to discuss this, he doesnt want to. Let him alone.

JT
Exactly. He has no interest in discussing the matter.
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jeffyscott
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by jeffyscott »

cacophony wrote:Ok, that makes sense. The numbers still seem awfully high to me, but I guess if you go to the dealership for everything it really adds up (especially with all OEM parts).
Hey, I was looking back and I noticed that you indicated you had spent about $500 per year, somehow I had gotten the idea that you were had indicated $250 per year. So I was under the impression that you were defending $250 per year as being typical :oops: . I also noticed you did not mention tires, if you had had to replace tires that may have bumped you up to more like $600 per year.

I will also note that I don't drive a lot of miles, about 7500 per year...so my 8 cents per mile would be about $600 per year. I did have some experience with a couple of older cars that got very little use, like 3000 miles per year and it did not seem that the lower miles resulted in much less in annual maintenance and repair costs. I would guess that going the other way and driving more miles would increase costs somewhat, but not at an equal per mile cost...some things do wear more on decay over time rather than miles.

Maybe Edmunds is a bit high. I would tend to believe the $1000-1200 average from the other sources for an older car. Then, for a more reliable model the average would be somewhat less.

Here's another site that indicates that the average over all cars of all ages is about $800 ($787): http://www.bikesatwork.com/carfree/cost ... rship.html
Obviously the average older cars would be higher.
The two greatest enemies of the equity fund investor are expenses and emotions. ― John C. Bogle
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by mgullo »

InsideTheCult wrote:
dbltrbl wrote:. I'll stick to $150/mo (or hell, $250/mo) and drive a kick ass brand new car... FOR LIFE.

[/b]

What type of 'kick ass brand new car' can you get for $150-$250 a month? I'm not saying my research is correct, but it seems that with no down payment, you're limiting yourself to a car of less than $13,000 value to reach $250 per month for 60 months. If you're putting down a $5,000 down payment, are you excluding the $83.50 per month that would be?

MTG
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by GregLee »

cacophony wrote:Ok, that makes sense. The numbers still seem awfully high to me, but I guess if you go to the dealership for everything it really adds up (especially with all OEM parts).
Maybe that's it -- this "dealership" and parts-not-from-the-junkyard thing. I've paid very little maintenance over the last 30 years for 5 jalopies I've had, but maybe my standards for keeping a car in repair are just lower than for some of you. We don't have a dealership -- just a close-by garage that will tackle all sorts of minor repair work on most any motor vehicle. For instance, our last repair bill was to fix our horn, and I recall that the garage guy called, after looking it over, to tell us that a replacement horn that worked in the regular way from the steering column would be pretty expensive, but he had some parts lying around that he could use to fix the horn up enough to pass a safety inspection. Except we'd have to lean down and hit a switch under the dashboard to beep the horn. We told him to do it the cheap way. That's what we always tell him.
Greg, retired 8/10.
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by cacophony »

GregLee wrote:
cacophony wrote:Ok, that makes sense. The numbers still seem awfully high to me, but I guess if you go to the dealership for everything it really adds up (especially with all OEM parts).
Maybe that's it -- this "dealership" and parts-not-from-the-junkyard thing. I've paid very little maintenance over the last 30 years for 5 jalopies I've had, but maybe my standards for keeping a car in repair are just lower than for some of you. We don't have a dealership -- just a close-by garage that will tackle all sorts of minor repair work on most any motor vehicle. For instance, our last repair bill was to fix our horn, and I recall that the garage guy called, after looking it over, to tell us that a replacement horn that worked in the regular way from the steering column would be pretty expensive, but he had some parts lying around that he could use to fix the horn up enough to pass a safety inspection. Except we'd have to lean down and hit a switch under the dashboard to beep the horn. We told him to do it the cheap way. That's what we always tell him.
Just going with brand new parts that aren't OEM can you save you lots of money. To use the 2006 Civic example, the OEM Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 in 215/45R17 are $896 for a set of four according to tirerack, and they have a poor user score of 5.9. For less than half the price you can find much higher rated tires on tirerack (eg. General Altimax HP in the same size have a score of 8.1, are rated to last significantly longer, and are only $416). OEM parts are often more expensive, and they're not always better. A good mechanic recognizes this, but a dealership will always use OEM.
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by jeffyscott »

cacophony wrote:a dealership will always use OEM.
Oh, not always. I had brakes done on a Windstar at the Ford dealer, they were just as cheap as anyone else and replacement pads had a lifetime warranty (worthless as it turned out). But they used "motorcraft" parts, I assumed these being made by Ford were the same as the OEM but they were not. Apparently the OEM pad were ceramic but these were not, the brakes were much weaker while we had those.

I only really realized this when I had the next brake job done by an independent. The independent guy did the job with new rotors and ceramic pads for not much more than the dealer had charged for resurfaced rotors with crap pads.
The two greatest enemies of the equity fund investor are expenses and emotions. ― John C. Bogle
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by InsideTheCult »

jeffyscott wrote:
cacophony wrote:[quote="jeffyscott" They used 13,000 miles per year and a labor rate of only $50 per hour (the copyright on the brochure is 1996).
Labor rates in NY are $100 hr.
And they pad their hours.
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by InsideTheCult »

rrosenkoetter wrote:Feel free to lease a car for the rest of your life, making payments every month for the next 50 years. If that makes you happy, so be it.
Feel free to pay $600 a pop every time the check engine light goes on.
Oh, and you're driving a beater the entire time.
I'd rather drive a brand new car, rather than look like a eccentric miser.
I'm frugal, but I'm done with used cars. They're for suckers.
I'll pay the extra $5 to drive a brand new car for life.
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by HomerJ »

InsideTheCult wrote:
rrosenkoetter wrote:Feel free to lease a car for the rest of your life, making payments every month for the next 50 years. If that makes you happy, so be it.
Feel free to pay $600 a pop every time the check engine light goes on.
Oh, and you're driving a beater the entire time.
I'd rather drive a brand new car, rather than look like a eccentric miser.
I'm frugal, but I'm done with used cars. They're for suckers.
I'll pay the extra $5 to drive a brand new car for life.
My 2001 Honda Civic had 15,000 miles on it when I bought it in 2003 for $10k... I never had a single problem with it... Just replaced the brakes, and the tires. I do need to replace the timing belt next summer. It currently has 110k miles on it, and my daughter is driving it in college... She's a sophomore; it should easily last her the next 2.5 years and beyond until she can get her own car. I guess I've spent $125 a month on it, and again, it will last a few more years no problem.

My 2009 Honda Civic had 10,000 miles on it when I bought it last year for $14k... No problems yet; I'll drive it for another 7 years, until my son turns 16, then I'll give it to him, and he'll drive it for 6 years (or wreck it after 1 year... you never know). Guess we'll have to wait and see how many repairs it needs. Even if I spend $6k on it over the next 13 years, I'll still be in the $120/month range.

Anyway, I'm driving a 2009 Honda Civic... Not really what I'd call a "beater". I'm curious what awesome car you can lease for $125 or $150 a month with $0 down payment... I'm sure it's a MUCH sweeter ride... :roll: :roll: (Also you pay taxes every 3 years - I pay taxes every 10+ years).

(Sorry everyone else for feeding the troll...)
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by nwrolla »

rrosenkoetter wrote:
InsideTheCult wrote:
rrosenkoetter wrote:Feel free to lease a car for the rest of your life, making payments every month for the next 50 years. If that makes you happy, so be it.
Feel free to pay $600 a pop every time the check engine light goes on.
Oh, and you're driving a beater the entire time.
I'd rather drive a brand new car, rather than look like a eccentric miser.
I'm frugal, but I'm done with used cars. They're for suckers.
I'll pay the extra $5 to drive a brand new car for life.
My 2001 Honda Civic had 15,000 miles on it when I bought it in 2003 for $10k... I never had a single problem with it... Just replaced the brakes, and the tires. I do need to replace the timing belt next summer. It currently has 110k miles on it, and my daughter is driving it in college... She's a sophomore; it should easily last her the next 2.5 years and beyond until she can get her own car. I guess I've spent $125 a month on it, and again, it will last a few more years no problem.

My 2009 Honda Civic had 10,000 miles on it when I bought it last year for $14k... No problems yet; I'll drive it for another 7 years, until my son turns 16, then I'll give it to him, and he'll drive it for 6 years (or wreck it after 1 year... you never know). Guess we'll have to wait and see how many repairs it needs. Even if I spend $6k on it over the next 13 years, I'll still be in the $120/month range.

Anyway, I'm driving a 2009 Honda Civic... Not really what I'd call a "beater". I'm curious what awesome car you can lease for $125 or $150 a month with $0 down payment... I'm sure it's a MUCH sweeter ride... :roll: :roll: (Also you pay taxes every 3 years - I pay taxes every 10+ years).

(Sorry everyone else for feeding the troll...)
it has to be at least a 911 Gt3 RS or a Ferrari, anything less would be ridiculous :beer
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LH
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by LH »

cacophony wrote:
nwrolla wrote:I find it pretty interesting to blow a Honda motor, I owned one for years, worked on it and many others and I have seen some Honda's beat to death and they still ran like a top What type of check engine lights was it throwing? O2 sensors commonly go out; Easy fix generally if you know how it could be less than 100$
autozone will pull codes for any car if you have a check engine light, with some research and a manual it can save thousands in the long run.
Good advice. You could also take it a step further and buy your own OBDII code reader for $30.

Plug reader in to pull code.
Type code into google.
Find out that your gas cap needs to be tightened.
Invest the $500 you saved in an low cost index fund. :D
some auto parts stores will read your codes for free, and by some, I mean the one that I personally know of, and assume its not unique : )
PreserveCapital
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by PreserveCapital »

I think there are life-cycle issues with a somewhat older car.

If you're buying a car that's several years old and say 70 or 80k miles, you might be hitting a point in its life cycle where over the next few years, you hit a bump-up in your repair cycle because various parts are aging all at the same time and are going to need to be replaced to keep the car running.

Then after getting through that "repair cycle bump" you might see your annual repair bill go down for a few years again.

It's not clear why the OP's car failed though--sometimes you just get unlucky.

The best approach when buying a used car is to make the purchase contingent upon your ability to have the car inspected by your own trusted independent mechanic. This obviously won't catch everything but a thorough pre-purchase inspection should turn up anything obvious/immediate which you can then use as a price negotiation point or perhaps walk away from the purchase.

Right now I'm driving a 1992 Honda Civic which has been pretty reliable as a second car for our family. At some point I'm sure a replacement will be needed but for now it's pretty cheap to keep as a second vehicle.
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by PreserveCapital »

InsideTheCult wrote:
rrosenkoetter wrote:Feel free to lease a car for the rest of your life, making payments every month for the next 50 years. If that makes you happy, so be it.
Feel free to pay $600 a pop every time the check engine light goes on.
Oh, and you're driving a beater the entire time.
I'd rather drive a brand new car, rather than look like a eccentric miser.
I'm frugal, but I'm done with used cars. They're for suckers.
I'll pay the extra $5 to drive a brand new car for life.
My problem is that even in a new car I'd look like an eccentric miser (see my avatar), so what's the point?
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by jeffyscott »

InsideTheCult wrote:
jeffyscott wrote:
cacophony wrote:[quote="jeffyscott" They used 13,000 miles per year and a labor rate of only $50 per hour (the copyright on the brochure is 1996).
Labor rates in NY are $100 hr.
And they pad their hours.
The $50 was from 1996, as noted. Labor rates here are $75-$100+
The two greatest enemies of the equity fund investor are expenses and emotions. ― John C. Bogle
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by bb »

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]

From wikipedia
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by InsideTheCult »

Since it can cost thousands of dollars a year to keep a BMW on the road, a used BMW sells for about the same cost as a Accord or Camry. For a 2002 with about 110k miles, expect to pay $6000 vs $8000 for a Camry/Accord vs. 5-series.
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by InsideTheCult »

bb wrote:In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]
Troll. Please.
Do you understand basic math?
I paid $8000 to own a car for 4 years.
Maybe you don't understand that that is comparable to lease costs.
Yet, I drove a low-class clunker the entire time.
It warrants a debate on whether owning is even worth it.
For me, it's not. I'm not paying $8000 to drive a piece of shit ever again.
I'll spend a little more, and unlock massive incremental value in a new car for a few cents more.
What part of that is too complicated for you?
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jeffyscott
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by jeffyscott »

Unless the assumption is that leases are mispriced, it's not necessarily a question of lease vs. own but new vs. old...whether you own or lease should not affect the cost much.

I just did some calculations on our two cars that we bought new, a 2007 with 40K mi and a 2005 with 50K mi. If KBB/Edmunds trade in values are to be believed, the cost for depreciation and maintenance/repairs to date has been about $175 per month or 22 cents per mile for the 2005 and $135 per month for the 2007.

I don't know that I see the next, say, 6 years for the 2005 costing much less, I would think I could see 800-1000 per year in depreciation and 1000-1200 per year in repairs/maintenance, which would be about the same total cost per month. But maybe not, since the mileage is so low perhaps we will continue to have mostly just maintenance costs or $200-300 per year.

Perhaps the economics have changed somewhat with the inflation in auto service costs greatly exceeding the inflation in new car prices?

I do know that, in retrospect, I felt like I kept a previous vehicle too long (14 years) and spent nearly $3000 on repairs during the last 3 years we had it when it was being driven very few miles, then sold it for $1800. I could have sold it for probably $3000-4000 if I had done so 3 years earlier.

I'm not trading in our cars, but I may see if my wife will like to do so at about 10 years or 80,000 miles this time.
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BuckyBadger
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by BuckyBadger »

InsideTheCult wrote:Do you understand basic math?
I paid $8000 to own a car for 4 years.
Do you understand that you are the outlier?

The majority of the people who buy quality used cars would find it cheaper to buy than to lease. In your case of n=1, you didn't. I'll still go with the law of averages over your one example.

But I don't care. Go lease a new Kia every 3 years for $250 a month.
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by greg24 »

InsideTheCult wrote:
bb wrote:In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]
Troll. Please.
Do you understand basic math?
I paid $8000 to own a car for 4 years.
Maybe you don't understand that that is comparable to lease costs.
Yet, I drove a low-class clunker the entire time.
It warrants a debate on whether owning is even worth it.
For me, it's not. I'm not paying $8000 to drive a piece of shit ever again.
I'll spend a little more, and unlock massive incremental value in a new car for a few cents more.
What part of that is too complicated for you?
Since you are unable to properly take care of a car, I agree that you should lease from now on.
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InsideTheCult
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by InsideTheCult »

Does anyone know if there is a significant difference between Honda's and Toyotas, in terns of the engine dying in the 125k to 150k mark?
My research indicates that it is actually very common for Toyotas (oil seals, etc). Can anyone corroborate this?
jridger2011
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by jridger2011 »

InsideTheCult wrote:
jeffyscott wrote:
cacophony wrote:[quote="jeffyscott" They used 13,000 miles per year and a labor rate of only $50 per hour (the copyright on the brochure is 1996).
Labor rates in NY are $100 hr.
And they pad their hours.
NY is notoriously bad with padding hours and not keeping appointments, car repairs in NY are not for the weak I think. About your analysis, I think maybe you have a bad experience with that specific car. I don't know about leasing in NYC, maybe other parts of NY, but I can't imagine returning a lease after having it in NYC with all the dings, vandalism, etc, and having to drag myself into the dealership every 3 years to try to match the same deal. I am anti-jalopy myself so I get where you are coming from, but leasing lower end cars or really high end cars is where the big savings are.
slickwillie
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by slickwillie »

I didn't see this article mentioned in the thread. I think it would have made more sense to compare the cost of a car 1-3 years old versus buying or leasing a new vehicle as opposed to one half the price.

http://www.edmunds.com/car-leasing/comp ... d-car.html
markpa
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by markpa »

as others have said,sometimes leasing is a good deal, but remember that leasing companies are making money or they wouldn't be offering them.

The original poster has a dataset of 1, maintenance costs that included possible big mechanic profits (and potentially substandard repairs if they overlooked something that could have saved the engine). hondas usually last 2-3 times as many miles so that means they will be that much more likely to succeed with another used purchase.

As anti-lease as I sound, I have to admit that I do have one that I'm sure I am costing the leasing company money on. I have a leased vehicle that I got during a big sale. $78.00 plus taxes, totalling $86.xx per month. 2010 Corolla LE, zero down for 36 months. I am anxious to see if Toyota will offer to lose more money by sending me the customary notices to 'extend my lease for 6 more months' at the end. We've also hurt their resale value by getting into a major accident which nearly totalled it (not at fault), and ignoring their prepaid dealer maintenance by opting to do it all ourself (meaning not even the oil changes are recorded in carfax for potential buyers once turned in).
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by Leesbro63 »

Markpa, I have a 2010 Corolla "S" on a 3 year lease for $215 plus tax. How did you lease an LE for under $100. I put no money down. I suspect you put down close over $2000???
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by markpa »

Leesbro-- nothing down. crazy august 2010 deal in a couple northern virginia and MD dealerships only (something like 5 of the top 9 dealerships are within a 50 mile radius of DC). all other areas wanted $50-100 more per month. not too long after their media hit on the camry brakes failing. even the pre calculated end of lease buyout is pretty low--in the $10k range.

msrp 18060 base cap cost 14094 add on fees 1136 cap cost reduction $1136, net cap cost 14094, residual 58% = 10,547, lease factor .00002, term 36 months = 99.02
then they applied the $1000 college grad rebate which made it ~$79, then the PA lease tax added a few bucks back on totalling ~$86.00

In hindsight I should have leased one of each color, for my business, since I have two other cars that average the same $80-100 a month to keep maintaned and inspected.
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by travellight »

I just bought a used car. By my calculations, I will likely end up paying 25 cents per mile for it. It is a luxurious Cadillac STS v8 with every add on available. My last car was also a used car puchase, a Jaguar xj8, which worked out to 28 cents per mile. I think I am heading in the right direction financially.
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by White Coat Investor »

I like this thread.

The OP has a point, but I think he also had bad luck.

It sounds as though he can afford a lot more car than he is driving. Perhaps he should drive a nicer car, whether he buys it or leases it. Not everyone is cut out to be a jalopy driver. It takes someone who is not only frugal, but willing to do repairs on his own (no self-respecting beater-owner pays someone else to do brake pads) and most importantly, willing to forgo doing repairs on a lot of stuff.

I'm confident that a lot of money, perhaps as much as $5000 a year (enough to fully fund a Roth IRA), can be saved by driving cheap cars into the ground. I'm not talking $2K a year. I'm taking $100 a year. Start with a $2K car. Repair nothing you don't have to. Sell it in 2-4 years for $2K and move on.

But like the OP, I don't like driving $2K cars. I much prefer $20K cars, or even $40K cars if I can ever afford one. When I can, you better believe I won't be driving a $2K car.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
Leesbro63
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by Leesbro63 »

In addition to being frugal and able to do repairs, someone driving a jalopy must be willing to live with cosemtic and some mechanical stuff. Torn seats are not worth fixing in a jalopy and neither is a stolen hood ornament. That nasty scratch caused by a careless granny with a grocery cart isn't worth repainting. That cigarette burn in the leather is best fixed with duct tape. Etc. I'm too OCD to live with stuff like that!
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by Leesbro63 »

markpa wrote:Leesbro-- nothing down. crazy august 2010 deal in a couple northern virginia and MD dealerships only (something like 5 of the top 9 dealerships are within a 50 mile radius of DC). all other areas wanted $50-100 more per month. not too long after their media hit on the camry brakes failing. even the pre calculated end of lease buyout is pretty low--in the $10k range.

msrp 18060 base cap cost 14094 add on fees 1136 cap cost reduction $1136, net cap cost 14094, residual 58% = 10,547, lease factor .00002, term 36 months = 99.02
then they applied the $1000 college grad rebate which made it ~$79, then the PA lease tax added a few bucks back on totalling ~$86.00

In hindsight I should have leased one of each color, for my business, since I have two other cars that average the same $80-100 a month to keep maintaned and inspected.
I'm impressed! Too bad those deals couldn't be locked in for future leasing after that one expires!
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by TN_INVEST »

dbltrbl wrote:I guess we are in new math. Absolutely no way lease is better than owning a car unless you are the dealer.
Never say never. I'm sure there are instances where it can make sense (probably because of some "interesting" circumstances and/or habits).

I'm not a fan of leasing, but I'm not the type that going to buy a new vehicle. Simply not my way of doing things.
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InsideTheCult
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by InsideTheCult »

markpa nailed it.
$90 a month, $0 down...to drive a brand new car, in perpetuity.
Owning a jalopy is for suckers.
It's frugal to drive a brand new car. Orwellian.
Only reckless spendthrifts own cars and plow tons of money into repairs.
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by cacophony »

InsideTheCult wrote:markpa nailed it.
$90 a month, $0 down...to drive a brand new car, in perpetuity.
To quote markpa, "In hindsight I should have leased one of each color".
In other words, you can't find a deal like that anymore.
So much for in perpetuity.
mortal
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by mortal »

Another point,

Honda and Toyota seem to be fighting it out for 'most boring car company' in recent years. These 'excellent deals' all seem to be on camry, accords, civics, and corollas. I would *much* rather drive something more exciting, interesting, with more character.
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by Leesbro63 »

I'll take boring over unreliable any day
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by yosef »

Leesbro63 wrote:I'll take boring over unreliable any day
I get where you're coming from, and I've owned several Toyotas (and still own one). But I'll agree that Toyota and Honda have just become almost intolerably boring. The new Camry is a complete and total yawn. I'm going to need a new car in the next year or 2 and there is nothing either of them are putting out that I am even remotely interested in spending my hard earned money on. Mazda and NIssan, and even Hyundai more recently seem to get it, and are nearly as reliable. I will likely look to one of them for my next car.
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by hicabob »

yosef wrote:
Leesbro63 wrote:I'll take boring over unreliable any day
I get where you're coming from, and I've owned several Toyotas (and still own one). But I'll agree that Toyota and Honda have just become almost intolerably boring. The new Camry is a complete and total yawn. I'm going to need a new car in the next year or 2 and there is nothing either of them are putting out that I am even remotely interested in spending my hard earned money on. Mazda and NIssan, and even Hyundai more recently seem to get it, and are nearly as reliable. I will likely look to one of them for my next car.
I rented a Fiat 500 the other day in San Diego - (Enterprise sub-compact class) for a regular biz trip I do. I was impressed - small on outside - nice size on inside - sporty feel - great mileage - perhaps too cute but I predict they will do ok in the US. Now we need Peugeot and Renault back!
Leesbro63
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by Leesbro63 »

I can only imagine what kind of headache the Fiat will be at 50,000 miles.... :roll:

But I agree that Hyundai, Nissan and Mazda are close enough to Honda and Toyota.
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Re: Owning a used jalopy: Same cost as leasing brand car.

Post by lightheir »

I see the point of the OP, and while I still don't agree with him/her, I do agree with some of the understated costs of running an old car, having driven 3 of them for the past 18 years myself to the ground.

I've had only Honda Civics and Toyota Corollas, and even with regular manufacturer scheduled maintenance and extra care thrown on top, after it rolled over 100k miles, there were about $500-$800 of averaged annual repairs. Some years would be zero, but then something like an "AC Compressor failure" would cost $2500 in one year, or a measly little thing like the auto driver window would servo would fail to work and cost $450 to fix. Then the shocks went even though I don't drive roughly at all - $1800. Etc. I could see all my car costs on my MS Money spreadsheet (now Mint.com) so I could be honest about it, and it truly was about $500-$800 per year, depending on whether you counted routine maintenance in the figures just to maintain a well used car for me. (I don't do any of my own car work.) It also really, really sucks to sink $2k into an old car, but when the car doesn't run without it, you have a problem.

Being faced with these numbers, I get very irritated when you constantly hear folks on car forums and elsewhere saying "I drove my Honda 240,000 miles and it costed zero for maintenance." They're almost definitely lying through their teeth. The alternative is that they're very knowlegable about cars and do all their own maintenance, but that's a far cry from costing zero in maintenance. I do my own maintenance on my bicycles (much simpler), and the tools/space and time alone equal and exceed the cost of having an expert do it in the store since I'm clearly not an expert, and also would not be with my own car. Almost all online estimates for car maintenance are in the range of what I experienced, and that's for a budget well used car, not a 'nice' car.

I suspect the ever-increasing cost of car maintenance is tilting the equation in favor of leases, especially given the lower interest and finance rates in the market today which underlie most of these leases. Still, I would exercise caution about going and signing a lease - as with anything, auto dealers aren't giving free money away, and leases have traditionally been known to be one of the most expensive ways to own a car, so while it may sound good in theory, there are a lot of caveats that can dramatically change the equation. (My friend had a quarter sized paint ding from a pebble on his leased car and he had to pay $1000 to repair it before the lease was up. Mileage concerns are a whole different matter that have ensnared a few of my friends on their leases, who ended up buying a whole new separate beater car like mine just to avoid the usurious overmileage charge.)
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