Windows Vista.....whaddaya think?

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LynnC
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Windows Vista.....whaddaya think?

Post by LynnC » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:33 pm

Let's say you knew of someone who "might" be getting a new Dell laptop for Christmas. Let's assume that new Dell has Windows Vista as an OS. What would you have to say to me, errr......, her, about Vista? She apparently has no other choice right now about how this surprise might be loaded.

Right now, my "friend" is using Xandros by Linux and she likes it better than her Windows XP.

What's the good, bad or ugly on Windows Vista? Anyone?

LynnC

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CyberBob
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Re: Windows Vista.....whaddaya think?

Post by CyberBob » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:07 pm

LynnC wrote:...getting a new Dell laptop for Christmas.
Right now, my "friend" is using Xandros by Linux and she likes it better than her Windows XP.
If your "friend" prefers Linux over Windows, Dell also sells computers preloaded with Ubuntu Linux.

Bob

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Post by maximus » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:52 pm

On new hardware, with at least 2GB of RAM and a 7200 rpm hard disk, Vista is very good. There's no way I can go back to using XP. I also prefer its UI to Ubuntu's GNOME desktop.


Overall, I think you will like Vista. If it's not too late, order the PC without all Dell pre-installed trialware. Otherwise, make sure you run the PC Decrapifier: http://www.yorkspace.com/pc-de-crapifier/

And I would suggest loading Firefox. I prefer it over IE 7.

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Post by at » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:15 pm

I like Vista. It has lots of enhancements all over the place. I also have the impression that it's faster. However, there're some compatibility problems with some of the games on the market. My PDFCreator also seems to have stopped working.

Remember to ask your friend to Google the web regarding the applications your friend is going to use on the new machine. Vista's great as long as it's compatible. Its feature lists are unbeatable.

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Re: Windows Vista.....whaddaya think?

Post by Valuethinker » Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:57 am

LynnC wrote:Let's say you knew of someone who "might" be getting a new Dell laptop for Christmas. Let's assume that new Dell has Windows Vista as an OS. What would you have to say to me, errr......, her, about Vista? She apparently has no other choice right now about how this surprise might be loaded.

Right now, my "friend" is using Xandros by Linux and she likes it better than her Windows XP.

What's the good, bad or ugly on Windows Vista? Anyone?

LynnC
I am not an expert, but when we bought my wife a new laptop (Lenovo thinkpad) we specifically made sure we got it with XP not Vista. In fact we were advised to buy the XP reload, if we did get it with Vista.

Until Service Pack 2 (or 3) comes out, Vista seems like a real kludge. I've lost track of the problems I have heard about it.

If your friend is already a Linux user though, why switch to Vista? Unless there is some specific application software she needs, Linux is a more secure, more robust, operating system, which runs on much leaner hardware configurations.

Vista is typical MS bloatware, with loads of features 90% of us will never use.

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Re: Windows Vista.....whaddaya think?

Post by Valuethinker » Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:59 am

LynnC wrote:Let's say you knew of someone who "might" be getting a new Dell laptop for Christmas. Let's assume that new Dell has Windows Vista as an OS. What would you have to say to me, errr......, her, about Vista? She apparently has no other choice right now about how this surprise might be loaded.

Right now, my "friend" is using Xandros by Linux and she likes it better than her Windows XP.

What's the good, bad or ugly on Windows Vista? Anyone?

LynnC
I should add I know of people who bought Vista machines, then returned them and bought Intel-based Macs.

I see more and more Macs around: they are definitely picking up market share.

However if your friend is using Linux, then in a sense she has already grabbed one of the chief attractions of a Mac (Unix-based operating system).

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Post by ataloss » Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:52 am

I have been thinking about getting another XP computer while they are still available. Too many bad stories about Vista and I am depending on a dying 3 year old Dell XP notebook for some peripherals and programs. Mac is great but my scanner only partially works in OSX (front panel buttons)

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Post by Valuethinker » Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:20 am

ataloss wrote:I have been thinking about getting another XP computer while they are still available. Too many bad stories about Vista and I am depending on a dying 3 year old Dell XP notebook for some peripherals and programs. Mac is great but my scanner only partially works in OSX (front panel buttons)
My understanding is that MS will cease shipping Windows XP on OEM (new) machines from 1st January. This is worth checking though-- I could be wrong.

To Vista proof your next laptop you will need a pretty chunky spec: 2 Gig of RAM and a decently fast processor.

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Post by Ruprecht » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:37 am

Vista may be better than XP, but it has severe compatibility problems. My father-in-law's new Vista computer would not:

- recognize his existing Wireless G home network without high-level customization (by me, which took hours to figure out)
- recognize his existing 1-year-old printer; this despite downloading Vista-specific drivers for that exact model. No amount of reinstallation, reprogramming, etc. was successful. It won't recognize the printer through USB, nor will it recognize it through the wireless network as a network printer.
- recognize any of our USB flash drives, and I'm not just talking about the kind with "U3" software. It won't recognize any USB jump drive that we currently have. I expect it probably would have no trouble with a newly purchased "compatible with Vista" drive.
- I have verified that the computer is in fact fully functional. There is no hardware problem. The problem is Vista.

I've never been one to resist upgrades. But in its current state, Vista is NOT reliably backward-compatible. If you don't have any existing hardware (scanner, printer, external HDD, important USB accessories), then feel free to get Vista. If you do, then you may be in for a rude surprise.

I plan to get a Dell Vostro laptop soon, which is still offered with XP as an option.

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Post by FloridaOldie » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:56 am

I just bought a new Dell desktop. Because of the compatible problems and other negative issues, I requested one with XP installed.

It's an XPS 410 with 4 GB RAM and runs perfectly with all my programs. Am sure it will do the job until I am ready for another new one.

I find many of my computer students are eager to "keep up with the Joneses" when too often the latest versions need time to have the bugs worked out. And that pertains to any software.

Just an opinion based on experience.

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Re: Windows Vista.....whaddaya think?

Post by Target2019 » Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:13 am

LynnC wrote:Let's say you knew of someone who "might" be getting a new Dell laptop for Christmas. Let's assume that new Dell has Windows Vista as an OS. What would you have to say to me, errr......, her, about Vista? She apparently has no other choice right now about how this surprise might be loaded.

Right now, my "friend" is using Xandros by Linux and she likes it better than her Windows XP.

What's the good, bad or ugly on Windows Vista? Anyone?

LynnC
The negatives you are reading are non-existent when you buy a new machine with more than enough horsepower and ram to carry you through the next few years. A year ago I would have said buy XP notebook. Today, the tide has shifted considerably, and I would only recommend XP in special circumstances. You're not an XP person, and you sound like someone who is willing to accept a new computing platform.

I'm ok with Linux, Windows, Mac and whatever else comes along. I learned a long time ago that the need must drive the purchase.

What does your friend need? Does she need to go forward and be a technology leader in the office? Does she need to guarantee that a significant investment in peripherals and old software is compatible?

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Post by LynnC » Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:40 am

Thanks for all of your great replies regarding Vista.

I believe the Dell it is already ordered. (The 7200) My husbsand is a computer guy and my needs (or should I say, my friend's needs) are simple. :D

I am running Firefox as a browser.

LynnC

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To order a Dell without Vista...

Post by nisiprius » Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:58 pm

Tip: If you want to buy a Dell with XP instead of Vista, the trick is to visit the "small business" part of their website rather than the "home" part... or to call the corresponding phone numbers. You can mostly get the same machines, but it's much, much easier to get them with XP through the small business division than through the home division.

Some people think it is a bonus that the systems ordered that way come with a reasonably clean version of Windows instead of one preloaded with vast quantities of third-party bloatware. It saves you hours of time trying to figure out which of the bloatware is demos, which are crippled to the point of uselessness, which are actually sorta-OK entry-level versions, and which are actually useful. And the frustration of trying to deal with the ones which won't uninstall properly.

I don't know if it's still true, but at one point Dell lost a sale because they flat outright lied to me. I was dealing with their "home" systems people and they said that Dell simply would not sell any OS but Vista... which I knew was untrue (the company I work for continues to OEM and sell Dells preloaded with XP and has no intention of moving to Vista). What I didn't know was that it was even untrue of the exact model I wanted to buy. The "home" salespeople had said flatly that you couldn't get it with XP. So we bought a computer from HP instead.

A week later someone at work mentioned he'd bought the exact Dell system I wanted... preloaded with XP... from their "small business" division.

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nisiprius
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Post by nisiprius » Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:07 pm

P. S. If you do go for Vista, at least make sure you get the version of Vista which actually has the stuff that Vista is supposed to have that is supposed to make Vista worth having.

I can't keep track of all the flavors of Vista, but the one that is sold with low-end systems is condemned even by Microsoft fans, and is currently the subject of a lawsuit by people who bought systems billed as "Vista capable" that were only capable of running Vista Home Basic, the argument being that it is deceptive to call Vista Home Basic "Vista."

Be sure you take the advice of people who have used and like Vista as to what a realistic set of system requirements is, and be sure your laptop meets them.

I know... pretty hard if you're not buying it yourself...

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Post by JMacDonald » Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:25 pm

Hi,
I found a link on Dell for XP: http://tinyurl.com/yuvr4y
Best Wishes,
Joe

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Post by LynnC » Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:04 pm

Thanks for the links and the comments.

I think my husband has figured out by now, that I'd be much happier with a different OS rather than Vista.

I actually love my Xandros as there is none of the balooney delivered to me anymore via Microsoft!

I am not a gamer and rarely even want to be bothered with speakers on. I do want a 17 inch monitor so the 1720 Dell will fit the bill, but we'll just have to see what he comes up with. If you are building your own computer, you ought to be able to get what you want! We currently have three Dells in the house. although all three are getting "long in the tooth" (old).

Thanks to everyone for your helpful replies.

LynnC

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Post by tc101 » Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:45 pm

I am so much happier since I switched to linux, ubuntu.

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Post by ataloss » Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:23 pm

I liked Xandros for the internet but I haven't been able to beat XP for trouble free functionality with peripherals- printers, scanners, cameras. I have more $ invested in these than the pc. Also when you buy a camera you get the nice free editing software optimized for windows. I had no idea that you could have a vista compatibility problem with a simple usb drive!

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Post by nisiprius » Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:31 pm

LynnC wrote:I think my husband has figured out by now, that I'd be much happier with a different OS rather than Vista.
I do think that "you can recognize the pioneers by the arrows in their backs" applies here. If it's not personally important to you to be the first on the block to experience Aero Glass, XP has gotten to the point of being pretty well-liked.

See also:Vista in danger of being bypassed by businesses.

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Windows Vista

Post by baldeagle » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:29 pm

My experience:

1. I bought a decent uniprocessor Compaq with AMD Athlon 64 3800+ processor, 512MB RAM, and standard 7200rpm SATA hard drive.
  • a. Came with Vista Basic. Ran so slow it was unusably frustrating by anyone with moderate PC experience.
    b. I rebuilt it from scratch with WinXP home as part of a dual boot config. It ran wonderfully on XP, but was a slug on Vista.
    c. Upgraded RAM to 1GB. Vista ran only moderately better. Still was completely unsatisfactory compared to XP.
2. "Playing" with Vista PCs at Costco. Typical PCs are dual core with 1GB to 3GB RAM. Operating system responsiveness to most input commands is noticeably slower than similar XP systems I have run.

3. Surfing the gamers forums, I have read that Vista runs 20-30% slower than XP on the most demanding PC games.

MY TAKE - Vista may run comparable to XP if the PC has mid to high end dual core processor and 2GB or more RAM. Not so spendy these days. Was nice to have with XP. But now a requirement for Vista, IMO.

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I haven't used Vista yet, BUT

Post by dm200 » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:48 pm

I am planning on purchasing some very specialized business software to run on a Windows system. That company told me that they have not done all the testing to recommend that Vista be used, so they recommend purchasing XP Professional on any computers we buy that are intended to run the specialized software.

I may buy a Dell Notebook to run this software, and as of last week, XP seems to be still available from Dell.

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Post by Keep It Simple » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:59 pm

I have been very happy with my new laptop running vista. I would however also recommend 2 GB RAM and the fastest processor that you can afford.

Having said that, I have found XP to be very reliable overall. I have heard of compatibility issues with vista such as with the zone alarm program, but I imagine that as time goes on, these will be worked out.

I think either would work fine for you. Enjoy!

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Post by BobE » Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:59 pm

I actually love my Xandros as there is none of the balooney delivered to me anymore via Microsoft!
Boy do I understand this!

Chk this page at Dell:
Dell Ubuntu

One could install their favorite linux along with ubuntu as a dual boot..

Image

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Post by Valuethinker » Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:27 am

LynnC wrote:Thanks for the links and the comments.

I think my husband has figured out by now, that I'd be much happier with a different OS rather than Vista.

I actually love my Xandros as there is none of the balooney delivered to me anymore via Microsoft!

I am not a gamer and rarely even want to be bothered with speakers on. I do want a 17 inch monitor so the 1720 Dell will fit the bill, but we'll just have to see what he comes up with. If you are building your own computer, you ought to be able to get what you want! We currently have three Dells in the house. although all three are getting "long in the tooth" (old).

Thanks to everyone for your helpful replies.

LynnC
Moving to a 21" screen (desktop) was a great revelation.

You are not going to make this choice now, but don't ignore the Mac.

I don't have an axe to grind here (I haven't used a Mac regularly since 1988 or so) but I have noted a surprising number of people switching to Macs. Now that OS Leopard has been released, and the Intel-based Macs are well entrenched, they seem to offer a reasonable alternative to the PC.

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Post by Gekko » Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:24 am

i would recommend getting a laptop over a regular computer. the portability of the laptop is a beautiful thing.

my sister just got the Dell Inspiron 1520 with the Intel chip and built-in wireless networking - and loves it.

i'd also get Vista - it's the most advanced OS and will be supported for a long time.

good luck.

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Post by Valuethinker » Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:02 am

Gekko wrote:i would recommend getting a laptop over a regular computer. the portability of the laptop is a beautiful thing.

my sister just got the Dell Inspiron 1520 with the Intel chip and built-in wireless networking - and loves it.

i'd also get Vista - it's the most advanced OS and will be supported for a long time.

good luck.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Vista might turn out to be another Windows ME. By the time everyone is forced to upgrade, the next Windows will be out, and we will upgrade to that.

I once made the mistake of upgrading Win95 to Win98-- a disastrous move from the point of view of reliability, performance and everything else.

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Post by ElJay » Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:20 am

Vista is a very pretty looking operating system. I have a few friends that have it and I've tinkered with it to help them out, but I've been avoiding it on my own PCs.

I have to administer a small workgroup of PCs as part of my job and I'm rather annoyed that all of the settings seem to have been obfuscated by another layer of interface. You need more clicks to get the same things done, and then there's the annoying time spent trying to find out where things have been hidden. Of course the latter part will disappear with experience, but it still strikes me as change for the sake of change.

The Vista team did pretty much the opposite of the Office 2007 team in regards to their UI designs. The Office guys completely revamped their UI so that everything was easier to get to with those awesome ribbon menus. There's a lot less clicking involved and everything is presented much more directly to the user. There's a learning curve, but after that I think the productivity potential of the software is higher. On the other hand, Vista kept the same basic UI but then added on an extra layer of menus to go through, like displaying summaries of summaries. Now I know most users don't sit around all day adjusting network or display settings, but I simply don't understand the philosophy that guided these changes.

I think right now the primary draw Vista has is the DirectX 10 capability for hardcore gamers. It's also good for novice users since the operating system is in a nanny mode by default, making it a bit harder for them to infect themselves with spyware and other nasty things. (Assuming the users actually read the prompts...)

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Post by Target2019 » Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:15 am

Valuethinker wrote:
Gekko wrote:i would recommend getting a laptop over a regular computer. the portability of the laptop is a beautiful thing.

my sister just got the Dell Inspiron 1520 with the Intel chip and built-in wireless networking - and loves it.

i'd also get Vista - it's the most advanced OS and will be supported for a long time.

good luck.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Vista might turn out to be another Windows ME. By the time everyone is forced to upgrade, the next Windows will be out, and we will upgrade to that.

I once made the mistake of upgrading Win95 to Win98-- a disastrous move from the point of view of reliability, performance and everything else.
Vista is not Windows ME.

It's well known that upgrades on any platform have their gotchas. So it's worth repeating.

This is the same experience we had when XP first came out. The difference now is that MS is more entrenched than ever. Vista is the future O/S for a majority of users, and it will continue to be top dog on business desktops.

Doesn't mean I like, but that is how things have played out. What has always worked for my consulting business is to stay in the middle, and not go out on the fringes, unless it makes sense to learn a new technology. That is why I have been slowly branching out into linux/unix, and not into Mac. Desktop linux has a vast potential. Desktop Mac is niche market.

I've set up 2 Dell Vostro 1500's in the last two weeks. These were picked because the customer wants to stay with XP.

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Post by Valuethinker » Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:10 pm

Target2019 wrote: Vista is not Windows ME.

It's well known that upgrades on any platform have their gotchas. So it's worth repeating.

This is the same experience we had when XP first came out.
I think the Vista gripes are worse, in particular re what it has done to performance of even top of the line hardware.
The difference now is that MS is more entrenched than ever. Vista is the future O/S for a majority of users, and it will continue to be top dog on business desktops.
I agree, but more because of the office Suite than any merits of Vista. Actually right now Vista is *not* top dog of the desktop, XP is.
Doesn't mean I like, but that is how things have played out. What has always worked for my consulting business is to stay in the middle, and not go out on the fringes, unless it makes sense to learn a new technology. That is why I have been slowly branching out into linux/unix, and not into Mac. Desktop linux has a vast potential. Desktop Mac is niche market.
I think I was a bit blind on this one. Outside the graphics/communications industry you don't see Macs. Therefore they don't exist. *but* they are popping up in the home user environment all over the place- -Windows is really losing market share in that market. I don't imagine this will change the business desktop situation, but who knows.

It's a bit the old Clay Christensen thing 'the Innovator's Dilemma'-- it's never the industry leader who leads in the next wave of innovation. Whilst we were all watching the mini-mainframe DEC/ IBM wars, we completely missed what the client-server-PC architecture would do to the computer industry.
I've set up 2 Dell Vostro 1500's in the last two weeks. These were picked because the customer wants to stay with XP.
Precisely. The fight to upgrade everyone to Vista will be long and slow. Who wants the hassle?

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Post by maximus » Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:14 pm

All operating systems have their plus/minuses. Vista is new so it will have compatibility problems. OSX and XP went through the same issues when they appeared.

Some people have recommended a Mac. Remember that the Mac is not exactly trouble free, despite what Apple wants you to believe.

http://scobleizer.com/2007/11/17/the-br ... -of-apple/

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Post by Target2019 » Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:42 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Target2019 wrote: Vista is not Windows ME.

It's well known that upgrades on any platform have their gotchas. So it's worth repeating.

This is the same experience we had when XP first came out.
I think the Vista gripes are worse, in particular re what it has done to performance of even top of the line hardware.
The difference now is that MS is more entrenched than ever. Vista is the future O/S for a majority of users, and it will continue to be top dog on business desktops.
I agree, but more because of the office Suite than any merits of Vista. Actually right now Vista is *not* top dog of the desktop, XP is.
Doesn't mean I like, but that is how things have played out. What has always worked for my consulting business is to stay in the middle, and not go out on the fringes, unless it makes sense to learn a new technology. That is why I have been slowly branching out into linux/unix, and not into Mac. Desktop linux has a vast potential. Desktop Mac is niche market.
I think I was a bit blind on this one. Outside the graphics/communications industry you don't see Macs. Therefore they don't exist. *but* they are popping up in the home user environment all over the place- -Windows is really losing market share in that market. I don't imagine this will change the business desktop situation, but who knows.

It's a bit the old Clay Christensen thing 'the Innovator's Dilemma'-- it's never the industry leader who leads in the next wave of innovation. Whilst we were all watching the mini-mainframe DEC/ IBM wars, we completely missed what the client-server-PC architecture would do to the computer industry.
I've set up 2 Dell Vostro 1500's in the last two weeks. These were picked because the customer wants to stay with XP.
Precisely. The fight to upgrade everyone to Vista will be long and slow. Who wants the hassle?
The upgrade process will take as long as it takes. The funny thing about upgrades is that critical mass happens even if you say it won't. For instance, in 2008 my employer has plans for Vista upgrades within its base of more than 100K machines. However, if two small clients of mine want to stick with XP to preserve their investment in software and years of training, so be it. The world is moving on without them, and that is fine.

I don't see Macs popping up all over the place, and I am all over the place in my area. There are three professionals (lawyer, teachers) who have Macs, but they also have new PC notebooks.

I know that real sales figures are hard to come by, but you must have access to stats that can show us how Macs have proliferated over the past few years.

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Post by Gekko » Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:05 pm

Ballmer: While Apple And Google Get The Glitz, We Get The Customers - By Aaron Ricadela, InformationWeek - Jun 6 2005 (14:58 PM) - The sense of excitement in the computer industry may be accruing more to Apple Computer and Google Inc. than Microsoft these days, but Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer downplays the buzz those companies are generating. Microsoft still outsells Apple 50-to-1, and it's in a better position inside companies than its search-engine rival, Ballmer said during an interview at Microsoft's TechEd conference in Orlando, Fla., on Monday. The world's largest software company also is trying to redefine its jobs to appeal to a younger demographic. Ballmer's comments, after a conference-opening speech here, came hours before Apple CEO Steve Jobs was preparing to disclose at a technology conference in San Francisco Apple's decision to use chips from Intel in its computers, switching away from those of IBM. "We've been competing with Apple every day for the last 20 years and we have about 50 times as many users," says Ballmer. Every year, 50 times as many people buy a PC as a Mac, he added. "I don't think this changes anything in the basic competitive dynamic." - http://www.eeproductcenter.com/showArti ... =164300720

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Post by Valuethinker » Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:07 pm

Target2019 wrote: The upgrade process will take as long as it takes. The funny thing about upgrades is that critical mass happens even if you say it won't. For instance, in 2008 my employer has plans for Vista upgrades within its base of more than 100K machines. However, if two small clients of mine want to stick with XP to preserve their investment in software and years of training, so be it. The world is moving on without them, and that is fine.

I don't see Macs popping up all over the place, and I am all over the place in my area. There are three professionals (lawyer, teachers) who have Macs, but they also have new PC notebooks.

I know that real sales figures are hard to come by, but you must have access to stats that can show us how Macs have proliferated over the past few years.
Hi

I didn't say they proliferated over the last few years. What I said was that I keep running into them in home situations, where I would never have expected to see them before.

Mac sold 2.2m PCs last quarter.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7057367.stm

http://www.itpro.co.uk/news/121057/appl ... sales.html

http://www.itweek.co.uk/personal-comput ... rush-vista

looks like world PC sales are c. 255m. So take Apple at 9m on 255m and you would get 3.5% market share.

But note I said home PCs, which I am guessing are about 35% of the market. So there, Apple is relatively stronger (since 90% of Apples are sold for home use).

I agree with you Linux seems the bigger threat on the office desktop, however the MS lock in that market is not about windows, it is about MS Office.

On Vista, I just wonder if this will be the one that we 'leapfrog' to whatever comes after Vista, much in the way we vaulted over Windows ME.

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VictoriaF
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If it is Vista, when to buy it?

Post by VictoriaF » Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:16 pm

Valuethinker wrote:Until Service Pack 2 (or 3) comes out, Vista seems like a real kludge. I've lost track of the problems I have heard about it.
I need a new computer but probably won't get to buying it for a few months. Is it fair to assume that a large number of people will get laptops with Vista for Christmas and Service Pack-2 will become available, e.g., by February?

Thanks,

Victoria

Target2019
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Post by Target2019 » Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:05 am

Valuethinker wrote:On Vista, I just wonder if this will be the one that we 'leapfrog' to whatever comes after Vista, much in the way we vaulted over Windows ME.
Windows ME must have caused you a lot of pain. It was introduced as an upgrade to Win 98, and not intended as an alternative to XP. Windows 2000 was the business solution at the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Me

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Post by Valuethinker » Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:44 am

Target2019 wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:On Vista, I just wonder if this will be the one that we 'leapfrog' to whatever comes after Vista, much in the way we vaulted over Windows ME.
Windows ME must have caused you a lot of pain. It was introduced as an upgrade to Win 98, and not intended as an alternative to XP. Windows 2000 was the business solution at the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Me
Actually it was Win98 that caused me the grief: for some reason, a MS upgrade is never quite as good as a newly installed version.

I went straight to Windows 2000P, and was quite happy with that for 5 years.

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Re: If it is Vista, when to buy it?

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:46 am

VictoriaF wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:Until Service Pack 2 (or 3) comes out, Vista seems like a real kludge. I've lost track of the problems I have heard about it.
I need a new computer but probably won't get to buying it for a few months. Is it fair to assume that a large number of people will get laptops with Vista for Christmas and Service Pack-2 will become available, e.g., by February?

Thanks,

Victoria
Yes I believe MS is migrating all new PCs to Vista, that XP will not be available on new machines as of 1st January (believe, not know).

I don't know the planned release date for SP1 [EDITED: I had written SP2 that is incorrect]. If history is anything to go by, they will fix a lot of the problems. If you are buying a laptop in particular though, it is noticeably slower than XP. You will need to have a pretty good hardware spec (2GB RAM, decently fast processor).
Last edited by Valuethinker on Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Valuethinker » Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:50 am

Gekko wrote:[reference to post deleted for political content - admin Alex]
That's an odd characterisation of Apple users.

What they are, often, is early adopters/ innovative users. People who like innovation and change might be seen to be more 'liberal'.

When you get to fully specced machines, there's not much in it in difference in cost PC v. Mac. I haven't used a Mac in 20 years, but I have been surprised by who I have seen buying them.

It's interesting. I have no patience with the 'Apple is God' crowd that pervades the internet (Linux is God is a different matter, as Linus Torvald is very clearly his prophet ;-) ;-) ). But what I am getting here, perhaps, is the flipside of that, people who hate Apple, and therefore love Microsoft? (serious logical disconnect, if true).

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Post by Valuethinker » Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:53 am

Gekko wrote:Ballmer: While Apple And Google Get The Glitz, We Get The Customers - By Aaron Ricadela, InformationWeek - Jun 6 2005 (14:58 PM) - The sense of excitement in the computer industry may be accruing more to Apple Computer and Google Inc. than Microsoft these days, but Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer downplays the buzz those companies are generating. Microsoft still outsells Apple 50-to-1, and it's in a better position inside companies than its search-engine rival, Ballmer said during an interview at Microsoft's TechEd conference in Orlando, Fla., on Monday. The world's largest software company also is trying to redefine its jobs to appeal to a younger demographic. Ballmer's comments, after a conference-opening speech here, came hours before Apple CEO Steve Jobs was preparing to disclose at a technology conference in San Francisco Apple's decision to use chips from Intel in its computers, switching away from those of IBM. "We've been competing with Apple every day for the last 20 years and we have about 50 times as many users," says Ballmer. Every year, 50 times as many people buy a PC as a Mac, he added. "I don't think this changes anything in the basic competitive dynamic." - http://www.eeproductcenter.com/showArti ... =164300720

Note the date on that article: 2 years ago. Pre Vista, and pre the Intel Apples.

That switch to the Intel architecture really seems to have propelled Apple forward.

And of course Vista was fired with a big bang, and landed with something of a damp squib. Given the time taken to produce it, and the delays and slippage in the schedule, it underlines the challenges MS is facing in software development.

Roll on SP2....

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at
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Post by at » Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:09 am

Valuethinker wrote:
Target2019 wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:On Vista, I just wonder if this will be the one that we 'leapfrog' to whatever comes after Vista, much in the way we vaulted over Windows ME.
Windows ME must have caused you a lot of pain. It was introduced as an upgrade to Win 98, and not intended as an alternative to XP. Windows 2000 was the business solution at the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Me
Actually it was Win98 that caused me the grief: for some reason, a MS upgrade is never quite as good as a newly installed version.

I went straight to Windows 2000P, and was quite happy with that for 5 years.
Maybe the problem is you installed it over Win95. You should backup your data, format your hard disk and re-install everything again.

I remember my installation of Win98 is pretty solid.

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Post by chaz » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:18 pm

I am VERY happy with Windows Vista. I bought a new computer with it already installed, so the hardware was adequate.
Chaz | | “Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons." Woody Allen | | http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

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modal
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Re: Windows Vista.....whaddaya think?

Post by modal » Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:47 pm

LynnC wrote:Let's say you knew of someone who "might" be getting a new Dell laptop for Christmas. Let's assume that new Dell has Windows Vista as an OS. What would you have to say to me, errr......, her, about Vista? She apparently has no other choice right now about how this surprise might be loaded.

Right now, my "friend" is using Xandros by Linux and she likes it better than her Windows XP.

What's the good, bad or ugly on Windows Vista? Anyone?

LynnC
At this point, I am sticking with Windows XP. It works.

I always here WinME horrors stories, but I ran WinME and never ran into any problems. It was just like WIN98SE2 with some extra eye candy.

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jkcarlson
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Post by jkcarlson » Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:16 pm

The only problem I have had with Vista had to do with some Oracle software I had to use at school. I guess there are some interface problems between Vista and Oracle.

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BobE
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Post by BobE » Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:06 pm

With such rapport between Bill G & Larry Ellison U'd think all would be well.

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maximus
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SP2?

Post by maximus » Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:56 pm

I've seen some references to Service Pack 2 (SP2). Note that Vista SP1 (not SP2) is currently under testing and should be available sometime early 2008. XP SP3 is also under development/testing and will possibly be available at the same time or so as Vista SP1. There are no plans for Vista SP2 yet. Just an FYI.

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Re: SP2?

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:36 am

maximus wrote:I've seen some references to Service Pack 2 (SP2). Note that Vista SP1 (not SP2) is currently under testing and should be available sometime early 2008. XP SP3 is also under development/testing and will possibly be available at the same time or so as Vista SP1. There are no plans for Vista SP2 yet. Just an FYI.
Thanks. I should have checked. In my mind I had SP2 but that's obviously incorrect.

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TravisMorien
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In my experience...

Post by TravisMorien » Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:21 am

In my experience, Vista runs really well, on my new quad core beast with 8 gigs of ram and a suitably overpowered graphics card. ;)

With suitable hardware its a really good OS. It finally fixes up some really annoying stuff like the old problem when you start copying a few gigs of files over to a new folder or something and then go off to do something more interesting, only to find on your return that it got stuck on a file 1 minute into the copy (i.e. file already exists, overwrite or not?) and has been sitting there waiting for a key press ever since. With Vista it doesn't hang while waiting for the key press, it will go ahead with the rest while waiting for your answer on the first file.

Vista fixes a whole lot of irritations of that sort and once you figure out where everything is there are a lot of "how did I ever make do without this?" sort of minor improvements, in addition to the eye candy which we all know about.

My machine is pretty powerful by today's standards, as it ought to be being brand new and all, but naturally as time goes on such specs will become increasingly ho-hum and more people will be able to run Vista with acceptable performance.

In the mean time, if you're trying to creak along with only a gigabyte or two of RAM it might be worth investing a few bucks in a nice quick 4G USB drive for running ReadyBoost. ReadyBoost is a caching technology which puts a bunch of small but commonly used system files onto your USB drive. USB drives are slower than good hard disks for downloading large files, but their seek time is much quicker than a hard disk (especially a slow laptop hard disk) so they're actually much faster at retrieving lots of small files than a hard disk is.

ReadyBoost seems to have no performance impact on a computer with lots of RAM, but if you have two gigs or less it's worth spending a few dollars on a nice fast 4G USB drive. That would certainly be a cheaper upgrade than getting extra RAM for your laptop for example, and most motherboards older than a year aren't able to take much more than 3G of RAM even when you are running the 64 bit versions of Windows where the operating system is able to address several terabytes of RAM.

Travis

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I avoided VISTA

Post by sailor234 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:12 am

Early this year I bought a MacBook pro, my first step in migrating from microsoft products and avoiding VISTA.

It is a great, even fabulous computer and OS. I now have everything except my financial tools on the MacBook; financials I left on my old Windows XP laptop, which remains upstairs in the office and off-line unless needed. I will keep that machine on XP Home until it dies.

The tools available on the Mac, and the ease of finding and using them, is most appreciated. I have not yet needed to do something on the Mac and not had the tools available to do it. Most MS software became bloated with options on options. It was clear years ago that MS was not selling software, they were selling software UPGRADES, which means they have to add something (or make the new incompatible with the old) to entice or force customers to upgrade.

Cost is another perspective. With XP, MS began securing each copy of the OS to a specific machine. I had three Windows computers for my personal use but still would have to buy three copies of VISTA.

And version proliferation is another consideration: there is one version of Mac OS X. No basic, enhanced, professional... just one version for everyone.

Apple has just released the latest OS for my MacBook. Trained by MS to be gun shy of initial releases, I am waiting for the first round of updates but will soon move to Leopard, the new OS X. It's only $129 and I believe a single purchase can be used on up to five Macs.

If you aren't locked into Windows due to work, I encourage everyone to consider a Mac for your next computer.

Ray

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TravisMorien
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Re: I avoided VISTA

Post by TravisMorien » Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:13 am

sailor234 wrote:
It is a great, even fabulous computer and OS.
Cripes! Macs have enough image problems among tech geeks without some guy called "Sailor" describing them as "fabulous"! Those are what geeks would call "reserved words". :lol:

sailor234 wrote: Cost is another perspective. With XP, MS began securing each copy of the OS to a specific machine.
Only for the OEM version, which costs just a fraction of what the retail version costs. The reason why OEM costs a quarter of retail price is because they tie it to one machine. If you want to be able to reuse it on a new machine you just buy the retail version.

Travis

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