Suze Orman or Dave Ramsey?

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills

Which on-air financial guru would you choose?

Poll ended at Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:37 pm

Suze Orman
32
17%
Dave Ramsey
76
41%
Dave Ramsey
76
41%
 
Total votes: 184

stephanie
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Post by stephanie » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:35 pm

bcboy57 wrote:I also believe Ms. Orman has a truly good heart and to characterize her as "shameless" is a grossly unfair misrepresentation of the good she has done for people like myself and thousands of others.
I also got into finance through her, but I then moved to Rick Ferri's books and the Bogleheads forum. Orman goes out of her way to appeal to women. Since our culture often associates machismo with the stock market, I think it is good that she draws more women into long-term investing. Her advice isn't perfect, but she gets people that are not investing to start a low cost, buy-and-hold portfolio. That's nothing to sneeze at.

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Adrian Nenu
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Post by Adrian Nenu » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:53 pm

She (Suze Orman) was an undergraduate at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign from which she holds a B.A. in social work (1976).[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suze_Orman


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Post by pochax » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:12 pm

bluemarlin08 wrote:Dave is a strong advocate for index funds and has mentioned Vanguard.
interesting...this is not the impression i get when listening to DR. he seems to suggest consulting one of his Endorsed Local Providers (ELPs) for investing and then doing a 25/25/25/25 split between growth, intl,agg growth, and growth&income funds which do not sound like index funds to me. i have never heard him recommend Vanguard on his tv show/podcasts. he has mentioned load funds like American funds before. he does not believe in investing in ANY bonds - just stock mutual funds and real estate. At least that is how i have understood over the recent years.

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Post by bluemarlin08 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:38 pm

Just recently heard him remark how he owns and has owned for many years index funds?

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Post by snodog » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:15 pm

While I agree that both have good hearts and are a net positive they should stop giving investment/retirement advice. Dave will have you saving half of what you need and Suzy will have you saving 3X what you need. I prefer Clark Howard.

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Post by Random Musings » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:30 pm

I'll pass on both.

RM

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Post by 3CT_Paddler » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:34 pm

snodog wrote:While I agree that both have good hearts and are a net positive they should stop giving investment/retirement advice. Dave will have you saving half of what you need and Suzy will have you saving 3X what you need. I prefer Clark Howard.
I agree that Clark Howard takes a much more Boglehead approach, but I don't know where you get the Dave will have you saving half of what you need. Once you pay off every debt but the house he recommends putting 15% of your salary into retirement funds. Then when you have your house paid off and college for kids funded he recommends going above and beyond that. I don't see how that will leave you with half of what you need. I would bet for most people if they consistently saved 10% of their earnings from the time they start working until retirement at 65, they would be in good shape for retirement.

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Post by snodog » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:37 pm

3CT_Paddler wrote:
snodog wrote:While I agree that both have good hearts and are a net positive they should stop giving investment/retirement advice. Dave will have you saving half of what you need and Suzy will have you saving 3X what you need. I prefer Clark Howard.
I agree that Clark Howard takes a much more Boglehead approach, but I don't know where you get the Dave will have you saving half of what you need. Once you pay off every debt but the house he recommends putting 15% of your salary into retirement funds. Then when you have your house paid off and college for kids funded he recommends going above and beyond that. I don't see how that will leave you with half of what you need. I would bet for most people if they consistently saved 10% of their earnings from the time they start working until retirement at 65, they would be in good shape for retirement.
I agree with what you wrote and I should have been more clear. I was referring to Dave's advice that you can withdraw 8% from your portfolio in retirement instead of the often recommended (safe?) 4%. Even with an 100% stock allocation as Dave recommends Firecalc still only calculates a 30% success rate withdrawing 8% over a 30 year period.

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Post by 3CT_Paddler » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:49 pm

snodog wrote:
3CT_Paddler wrote:
snodog wrote:While I agree that both have good hearts and are a net positive they should stop giving investment/retirement advice. Dave will have you saving half of what you need and Suzy will have you saving 3X what you need. I prefer Clark Howard.
I agree that Clark Howard takes a much more Boglehead approach, but I don't know where you get the Dave will have you saving half of what you need. Once you pay off every debt but the house he recommends putting 15% of your salary into retirement funds. Then when you have your house paid off and college for kids funded he recommends going above and beyond that. I don't see how that will leave you with half of what you need. I would bet for most people if they consistently saved 10% of their earnings from the time they start working until retirement at 65, they would be in good shape for retirement.
I agree with what you wrote and I should have been more clear. I was referring to Dave's advice that you can withdraw 8% from your portfolio in retirement instead of the often recommended (safe?) 4%. Even with an 100% stock allocation as Dave recommends Firecalc still only calculates a 30% success rate withdrawing 8% over a 30 year period.
Thanks for the clarification... I agree that assuming 8% withdrawal rates and being 100% stocks at retirement is not a wise course and Dave is way off in that area.

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Post by spell » Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:43 am

Suze is good at understanding psychology.
Don't listen to any of her specific advice.
But she's good to talk about how you FEEL.

If forced to choose, I'd say Dave Ramsy.
But only after installing a gear shift to turn him off after you are out of credit card debt.

Spell

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Post by airahcaz » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:19 pm

spell wrote:Suze is good at understanding psychology.
Don't listen to any of her specific advice.
But she's good to talk about how you FEEL.

If forced to choose, I'd say Dave Ramsy.
But only after installing a gear shift to turn him off after you are out of credit card debt.

Spell
Ramsey is only via radio and podcast though?
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course. (Plagiarized, but worth stealing)

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Post by Go Blue 99 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:48 pm

I discovered Dave Ramsey about a month ago and stream his show at work almost daily. I don't listen for advice though- it's much more of an entertainment value for me (and free!). It's interesting to see what kind of financial pickles people get themselves into.

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Post by xystici » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:17 pm

DaveH wrote: Imagine someone with 50k of high interest credit card debt, 40k of family income, an underwater mortgage on a too-big house, and at risk of losing their health insurance. They lack some basic financial skills and experience. If they asked, 'where can I find help?' I would send them to Dave Ramsey.

Imagine someone who has a decent income and the ability to do some savings, but doesn't have the attention span or interest in learning anything about investing. They want investment advice, but it better be simple because they also need tips of dealing with simple consumer financial issues. I might tell them to watch Orman.

Imagine someone who has the ability to save/accumulate wealth and has the motivation and interest to learn more about investing so that they could personally devise an approach for their financial well-being. I'd point them to the boglehead recommended reading list.

Seems simple enough. I think if you went to a Ramsey discussion forum and asked them 'boglehead or Orman' a lot of the users would scratch their heads and say that the bogleheads mentality doesn't offer much to them.
Very well said. I agree with your analysis.

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Post by PaddyMac » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:37 am

I like how Dave Ramsey helps folks that are in obvious need to help get out of debt. But his audience seems limited to basket cases of debtors from what I saw, and the advice was the same. I got a bit bored. I don't like the religious references either.

Suze is more of an entertainer. Her callers can be all over the place, but very few people are in debt (although recently some of her callers have parents in debt who could use Ramsey!). I can get beyond her personality to listen to the content itself. Sometimes I learn something and it's a fun show.

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Post by airahcaz » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:34 pm

I just read all of Ramsey's steps in his book, and didn't learn much new -more so reinforced what we BogleH's already knew.

I'd be looking for more advanced books, but maybe they aren't really necessary, cause that would deviate from the KISS strategy.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course. (Plagiarized, but worth stealing)

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Post by FlyboyZR1 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:50 pm

Clark Howard in my opinion trumps them both. I used to listen to Dave Ramsey's podcasts every single day, until I discovered Clark Howard had podcasts as well.

I don't care for Dave's religious remarks, nor his attitude towards some of the callers. Clark is always very mature and sincere, and talks about many things aside from just money. Between the three of them, I have definitely learned the most from Clark.

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Post by Skiffy » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:26 pm

about 15 years ago I started recording Suze and thus began to become financially literate. That road led to this Bogleheads board. . . At least now I know where different folks are coming from--Ramsey, Orman etc. I don't agree with everything either one of them says, but by the same token some of the discussions by Ferri & Swedore are beyond my comprehension. Yet I continue to educate myself, and hopefully my kids.

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Post by foxfirev5 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:40 pm

DouglasDoug wrote:who is Dave Ramsay ? If he is anything like the bulldozer salesperson who is Suze Orman---ugh ! Plus a heartless shark, who smiles constantly. And boasts, and is hubristic. Perfect lampooning material.
As a bulldozer salesman I take offense with being compared to Suzy Orman :wink:

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Post by airahcaz » Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:59 pm

FlyboyZR1 wrote:Clark Howard in my opinion trumps them both. I used to listen to Dave Ramsey's podcasts every single day, until I discovered Clark Howard had podcasts as well.

I don't care for Dave's religious remarks, nor his attitude towards some of the callers. Clark is always very mature and sincere, and talks about many things aside from just money. Between the three of them, I have definitely learned the most from Clark.
seems like Clark is the only one worth watching
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course. (Plagiarized, but worth stealing)

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Post by redlbj01 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:25 pm

I don't have any experience with Roman, but from what I heard, I'd rather work with Dave Ramsey. My wife and I were (are) a young couple fresh out of school who had ZERO idea how to handle the new income we were getting from our first real jobs. While we had minimal debt (thankfully) we still had no idea where our money was going every month. Enter Dave Ramsey, I read his books, liked his simple and common sense approach, and even coerced DW to enter his FPU program with me. And yes, we have budget meetings every month to decide how the money is going to be spent this month.

Skip ahead a few years, and we are debt free (at 29 yrs. old!), live very frugally, and are saving like maniacs for the things that are important to us (baby, retirement, etc.). Is Dave's investing advice perfect, NO, BUT for the everyday consumer who is drowning in debt, he does a world of good!

And while many of this board will criticize his investing advice, just getting people to invest 15% of their income would resolve a lot of the issues the US is facing right now. In fact, my interest in investing sparked by Dave's teachings lead me to this board, so he must be doing something right...

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Re: Suze Orman or Dave Ramsey?

Post by laughlinlvr » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:42 am

Alvin Hall, by a mile. Today's his birthday.

(He's currently doing a radio documentary on those at the edges of the financial life. Who're in the closet if you like: those who look modest but are sitting on a large nest egg [millionaire next door types] to be followed by those who use bling while sitting on a large debt. Bogleheads might have much in common with the first broadcast, available until Tuesday at:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0213cj1 )
Investing - The hardest way to make an easy living.

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Re: Ric Edelman ?

Post by rleonardh » Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:39 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote:
Ric Edelman isn't too bad either.
10 Great Reasons to Carry a Big, Long Mortgage by Ric Edelman

If money is not used to pay-off your mortgage it is available for your advisor to invest for you. Always beware of conflict-of-interest.
Yah the tax dedutible thing, drives me crazy when people want to keep mortgages.

For example, If you have a house payment of $900 and the interest portion is $830 per month, so altogether around 10K in interest per year. Know lets see if I can do math here. No $10k tax deduaction and I am in a 30 percent tax bracket, I would have to pay the irs $3000. I do not know about most people but I would like to keep 7k per year and invest it.

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Re:

Post by mollymillions » Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:57 pm

pochax wrote:
bluemarlin08 wrote:Dave is a strong advocate for index funds and has mentioned Vanguard.
interesting...this is not the impression i get when listening to DR. he seems to suggest consulting one of his Endorsed Local Providers (ELPs) for investing and then doing a 25/25/25/25 split between growth, intl,agg growth, and growth&income funds which do not sound like index funds to me. i have never heard him recommend Vanguard on his tv show/podcasts. he has mentioned load funds like American funds before. he does not believe in investing in ANY bonds - just stock mutual funds and real estate. At least that is how i have understood over the recent years.
I have been listening to Dave Ramsey's show for a couple of years now pretty regularly. I listened to the show literally every day for 6 months and he never mentioned index funds. However, he recently slipped in a mention of "index funds", as a "dummy proof" method of investing that is "fine if you want to go that route". He has mentioned them several other times since, even referring to Vanguard index fund investing as a method that one could use to invest without going through a broker. Dave has seemed more positive toward the idea (based on my interpretation of his tone and word choice) in each ensuing mention. Based on his demeanor when he brings up index funds, I suspect this is a relatively new concept for him, that he is slowly accepting and working into his advice.

Over the last year or so, Dave seems to have come under increasing fire for recommending high load funds through his ELP's, and for the silly "12% yearly return" estimate from his "good, growth stock mutual funds". This might have inspired him to take a peek at index investing, who knows. It seems like a good play, and might help with his image. Funneling people ONLY to his ELP's is negatively impacting his image a bit, from my viewpoint.

The situation reminds me a bit of someone recently who essentially said, "I offer [product], but if you want to do it yourself you can get a kit and send it off with a little slower turnaround. I'm not trying to sell it to you but I recommend you have this done either way." This was a home inspector selling me a radon test. It's a classic technique, giving the impression (accurately or not) that the salesman is a good person just trying to help the customer out, whether they get a sale out of the deal or not. I think Dave Ramsey is a good guy at heart, though he's certainly a salesman.

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Re: Suze Orman or Dave Ramsey?

Post by placeholder » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:10 pm

Hard to believe so many pick Ramsey over Suze because I think her general advice for getting out of debt and budgeting and such is at least as good as his and her investment advice is miles better.

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Re: Suze Orman or Dave Ramsey?

Post by tony44 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:32 pm

Ramsey is Personal Finance 101. Orman is the "chick-flick" of finance. I'll take Dave any day but then move on to Boglehead land.

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Re: Suze Orman or Dave Ramsey?

Post by placeholder » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:20 pm

^^ Could you give some examples of how Ramsey's financial advice is superior?

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Re: Suze Orman or Dave Ramsey?

Post by mhalley » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:23 pm

I wouldn't say Dave is an advocate of Index funds. I was listening the other day when he went on a rant about people who dis his recommendation of using loaded funds, talking about how in the long run you would be much better off finding a loaded mutual fund with a good track record instead of buying one of hose cheap no load funds. He has mentioned that he sometimes parks some money he hasn't quite decided what to do with in the S&P 500, I guess he does this because he doesn't believe in bonds and doesn't want to pay the load on a fund and then cash it out shortly thereafter.
I haven't actually read either of their books, so I don't know every detail of their investing advice. Suze doesn't like bond funds, but does like bonds, whereas Dave doesn't like either. She does recommend decreasing the stock allocation as you age. Suze likes Dividend paying stocks, but that seems to be relatively recent, her investing advice seems to change with market conditions. Dave recommends an all stock portfolio throughout life, using the dreaded "mutual fund with a strong track record of 12% returns". He recommends growth, growth and income, aggresssive growth and international. He even recommends an all stock portfolio for kids 529 plans. He does say that if you have a low tolerance for risk you can use a balanced fund. For those that don't know Dave's investing advice, here is a link:

http://www.daveramsey.com/articles/arti ... investing/

I can't seem to find a link that gives Suze's full investing advice.

Mike

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Re: Suze Orman or Dave Ramsey?

Post by jginseattle » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:57 pm

Gurus? Really?

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Re: Suze Orman or Dave Ramsey?

Post by Tycoon » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:10 pm

The good news is once one has discovered this site there is no reason to listen to either of them ever again. Suze insults my intelligence, and I've never had a need for Mr. Ramsey; but, like another poster said, I've heard from colleagues who have turned their finances around listening to Mr. Ramsey.
Emotionless, prognostication free investing. Ignoring the noise and economists since 1979. How consistantly wrong do predictions have to be before the faithful learn?

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Re: Suze Orman or Dave Ramsey?

Post by placeholder » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:46 pm

Suze got me on the path to Vanguard and ultimately here which I don't think listening to Ramsey would ever do.

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Re: Suze Orman or Dave Ramsey?

Post by dmlauffer » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:18 am

Dave Ramsey is more of a debt counselor and life coach. The focus is about freeing people from debt and living meaningful lives instead of maximizing wealth. People who take his advice do just fine. He encourages paying off a mortgage early and loaded mutual funds. His advice does help a lot of people but some of his investing advice is off in my opinion. Of all the celeb advisors, Ric Edelman is probably the closest to a boglehead himself. He does recommend hiring an advisor but will say it is mostly for the accountability, behavioral, and education component. I listen to his weekly show and have learned a lot.

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Re: Suze Orman or Dave Ramsey?

Post by HardKnocker » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:27 pm

I'd go with Elvis.

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Re: Suze Orman or Dave Ramsey?

Post by Zabar » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:01 pm

Both are appropriately simplistic and moralistic, given their target audiences. What's really impressive about Ramsey, at least to me, is that he figured out how, instead of working with leveraged real estate, he could leverage his relationship with churches to promote his courses and differentiate them from other educational programs out there. For a share in the revenue, he became their "endorsed local provider." That's brilliant!

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Re: Suze Orman or Dave Ramsey?

Post by mickeyd » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:18 pm

I prefer Boomers Braintrusthttp://www.moneybizlife.com/shows/boome ... 68UFpMo4c8 to either of those two TV offerings. It's on cable (TWC) under Youtoo TV. Those guys often give good insight and advice tho I don't agree with all of their ideas.
Part-Owner of Texas | | “The CMH-the Cost Matters Hypothesis -is all that is needed to explain why indexing must and will work… Yes, it is that simple.” John C. Bogle

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Re: Suze Orman or Dave Ramsey?

Post by shokwaverider » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:34 pm

Dave Ramsey annoys me because of hi religious innuendos, implications and such. Being religious has naught to do with financial sensibility. I do not want to be Blessed, or do I ever want a Blessed day. That being said, Dave Ramsey does talk sense, most of it common. I used to like Suzy Orman till she got real commercial.

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Re: Suze Orman or Dave Ramsey?

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