Coveting a Prius. Trade my 2007 Camry for new Prius?

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maximus
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Coveting a Prius. Trade my 2007 Camry for new Prius?

Post by maximus » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:13 pm

I have a 2007 Camry XLE with 30K miles. I was planning to keep this car for at least 10 years. But I've always wanted to get a Prius and that desire has only gotten stronger. I drive about 15K miles/year so that may not be much to justify the price of the Prius. But I love everything about the Prius. But I'm also rather frugal and don't want to make a poor financial decision.

How do I analyze whether trading in my Camry for the Prius makes sense financially? How should I think about this? What would a Boglehead do?

Startled Cat
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Post by Startled Cat » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:24 pm

Your Camry should have a pretty high resale value. You could sell it to a private party (say, by listing it on Craigslist), and buy a used Prius of a similar age. Excluding transaction costs like sales tax and DMV fees, I'd think it would be pretty close to a wash. You wouldn't get a shiny brand-new car out of it, but I think buying used is worth considering. The 2010 model doesn't improve much on the 2004-2009 2nd generation, and the Prius has received very high marks for reliability.

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Post by dwb8p » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:24 pm

There's no way trading in for the Prius would put you in a better financial situation. The gained savings in MPG with the Prius would not be enough to offset the purchase cost of the Prius and depreciation of the Camry. It comes down to how much you value owning and driving the Prius. If you can afford it and if it would bring you enjoyment, I see no reason not to make the switch.

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Post by JasonR » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:30 pm

A Boglehead would keep the Camry and drive it into the ground. Get a hold of yourself, man! (slap, slap)

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Post by avalpert » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:34 pm

I agree that it is unlikely to be justified as a financial move but I strongly disagree with Jason's characterization of what a boglehead would do.

If the utility value of the prius is worth it then do it (as long as it doesn't put you in a precarious financial position). I've owned three priuse s(two currently) and love the car. The reason to be a frugal, smart saver and ivestor isn't to deprive yourself but to enable yourself to make these types of purchases.

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Post by bottlecap » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:56 pm

The move would probably not be justifiable, financially. However, if you can afford it and would get great enjoyment out of it, perhaps it would be worth it for you.

penumbra
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Post by penumbra » Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:52 pm

Have a 2005 Prius which my wife drives and loves. We get 44 mpg and in CA we can drive in the car pool lane with only one person in the car.

Agree w poster above the most financially neutral way to handle this would be to buy a used Prius; the differential cost would be negligible, and you would accomplish what you want. If you want a new one, it'll cost more, but a new anything would probably cost more; that's what's involved in trading up to a new car. People do it all the time, it's not a sin. Sometimes this Boglehead thing can squeeze all the fun out of life.

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Re: Coveting a Prius. Trade my 2007 Camry for new Prius?

Post by TJAJ9 » Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:24 pm

maximus wrote:I have a 2007 Camry XLE with 30K miles. I was planning to keep this car for at least 10 years. But I've always wanted to get a Prius and that desire has only gotten stronger. I drive about 15K miles/year so that may not be much to justify the price of the Prius. But I love everything about the Prius. But I'm also rather frugal and don't want to make a poor financial decision.

How do I analyze whether trading in my Camry for the Prius makes sense financially? How should I think about this? What would a Boglehead do?
If you're going to sell your Camry, let me know. I might be interested. I see that you're from NJ (not far from me). :wink:

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Post by jegallup » Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:28 pm

Had a Prius as a rental car a while back and enjoyed it immensely, even though it took me 10 minutes with the owner's manual in the parking garage to figure out how to start it. The feeling of rolling away from stop signs without a gas engine running is quite amazing. This was in Alabama, and part of the fun was that nobody I was visiting had any idea what a "Prius" was or why anyone would want one.

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Prius Fan

Post by bc3x » Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:18 am

My silver green Prius gets 71 mpg when the temperature is about 60 to 65 degree, on the highway. Travel to New Jersey often, so fill up there, where gas is about $.30 to $.40 cheaper; essentially avoiding the higher prices in New York. In the dead of winter, going up hills, it drops down to 45 mpg. Drove though a snow storm down to Virginia for the purchase and saved about $2K. Very foolhardy at the time and in retrospect. There was a $1575 tax credit (not deduction) at the time and Toyota offered 0% financing for 2 years, when the yield on the savings account was 5%. Got the Prius, not for gas savings, but for the lower emissions and to do my part to decrease global warming.

For a compact, it is quite roomy and comparable to my old Integra sedan. Only complaints: it shaped like a turtle and the spoiler cuts the rear view in half. The camera does help, but that required the second add-on package. Had the second package not included Vehicle Stability Control, it would have been poor value.

Even though the hybrid tax credit is no longer available, because of the negative press Toyota has been receiving, there is supposed to be some very attractive incentives to new buyers. Consumer Reports will, for a fee, give a good analysis as to the dealer costs if you provide them with the specifications. Try to get an "out the door" price online before showing up at the dealership unless you don't mind the hard sales tactics.
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Re: Prius Fan

Post by KCJayhawker » Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:50 am

bc3x wrote:
For a compact, it is quite roomy and comparable to my old Integra sedan. Only complaints: it shaped like a turtle and the spoiler cuts the rear view in half. The camera does help, but that required the second add-on package. Had the second package not included Vehicle Stability Control, it would have been poor value.
Just an FYI...the shape of the Prius has more to do with it's increased gas MPG then you think. Funny seeing it as a complaint since it's the #1 design feature allowing you to get that kind of gain on mileage.

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Post by chrisjul » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:39 am

In my humble opinion, financially its an obvious loser.

I believe the Prius to be more of an ecological/political statement than an actual wise purchase due to gas savings. Do the math on buying a Corolla vs a Prius; compare initial cost, gas savings and long term expense.

Good luck,
Chris

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Post by Ziggy75 » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:54 am

If trade in, then:

In three years you will want to go back to the Camry, Camry Hybrid, or another car.

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Post by englishgirl » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:46 am

If you want it, and can afford it, do it. :twisted:

I'm on my second Prius, and I love it. I had a 2001 and then bought a 2010 late last year. I still feel lucky to have such a great car.
Sarah

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Post by kermit » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:33 am

Consider the new Honda Insight. It is cheaper than the Prius with similar design/mileage; the Prius wins when it comes to mileage but the Insight is no gas-guzzler.

You might be able to make it closer to a wash if you opt for the Insight.

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Post by jegallup » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:35 am

englishgirl wrote:If you want it, and can afford it, do it.
Indeed. No one would ever accuse you of being extravagant or a spendthrift for buying a Prius. :)

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rustymutt
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Post by rustymutt » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:39 am

JasonR wrote:A Boglehead would keep the Camry and drive it into the ground. Get a hold of yourself, man! (slap, slap)
I second that! You don't really need it, you want it. Self control man, slap, slap.

The Wizard
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Post by The Wizard » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:15 am

Sadly, the Prius does not have a CONVERTIBLE model...

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Re: Coveting a Prius. Trade my 2007 Camry for new Prius?

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:23 am

maximus wrote:I have a 2007 Camry XLE with 30K miles. I was planning to keep this car for at least 10 years. But I've always wanted to get a Prius and that desire has only gotten stronger. I drive about 15K miles/year so that may not be much to justify the price of the Prius. But I love everything about the Prius. But I'm also rather frugal and don't want to make a poor financial decision.

How do I analyze whether trading in my Camry for the Prius makes sense financially? How should I think about this? What would a Boglehead do?
There is the energy and environmental cost of building that Prius. c. 15-20% of its total lifecycle energy cost. Delay in replacing a car is good for the environment, generally.

here's my view:

- if you want to do something for the environment, really, give the saved money to Greenpeace and/or rainforest charities. If you want to be green rather than feel green, that is. Greenpeace because they are hard nosed activists (some would say extremists)-- I am sure you could find other groups

- if you really want to own a hybrid car, you are better off for the environment driving your current vehicle for a lot longer (maybe into the ground) and then buying one of the far better plug in hybrid vehicles which will be widely available in 3-7 years. The technology is NOT stationary, and will be far better in the future

- if you drive heavy mileage in low speed and stop-go traffic, then a hybrid sooner might be justified. Say if you lived in Southern California or Atlanta, with a daily commute

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Post by Valuethinker » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:25 am

chrisjul wrote:In my humble opinion, financially its an obvious loser.

I believe the Prius to be more of an ecological/political statement than an actual wise purchase due to gas savings. Do the math on buying a Corolla vs a Prius; compare initial cost, gas savings and long term expense.

Good luck,
Chris
It does depend on your gas mileage.

I pay $6.50ish USD/ gal so my calculation is somewhat different from yours.

However we have lots of very economical diesel engined cars around, which aren't nice for the local atmosphere, but get mpg comparable to Prius.

I generally agree it is better to NOT buy the new car, and use the saved money to support environmental groups.

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wjo
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Post by wjo » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:51 am

Two thoughts:

1) if you are trying to be green, keep the current (used) car rather than cause the environmental cost of a new car to be created

2) if you must, consider also the Fusion/Milan hybrid -- remarkably good with less compromises than the Prius. These seem to be the new green car with much of the in crowd, at least here in Austin....I keep seeing them everywhere.

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Post by Perpetual » Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:25 am

avalpert wrote:I agree that it is unlikely to be justified as a financial move but I strongly disagree with Jason's characterization of what a boglehead would do.

If the utility value of the prius is worth it then do it (as long as it doesn't put you in a precarious financial position). I've owned three priuse s(two currently) and love the car. The reason to be a frugal, smart saver and ivestor isn't to deprive yourself but to enable yourself to make these types of purchases.
Isn't the entire point of financial wisdom the ability to resist these sorts of temptations? Driving a Prius has no financially-justifiable practical benefit over driving a Camry. I see what you're saying with regards utility value, but we aren't talking about a small expense here. We're talking about a depreciating asset that is fairly expensive even after trading in the existing Camry.

I personally wouldn't make the purchase. Then again, I drive a 2004 Civic that doesn't even have electronic door locks and windows and I plan on driving it for another 5-10 years at least.

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Post by avalpert » Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:50 pm

Perpetual wrote:
avalpert wrote:I agree that it is unlikely to be justified as a financial move but I strongly disagree with Jason's characterization of what a boglehead would do.

If the utility value of the prius is worth it then do it (as long as it doesn't put you in a precarious financial position). I've owned three priuse s(two currently) and love the car. The reason to be a frugal, smart saver and ivestor isn't to deprive yourself but to enable yourself to make these types of purchases.
Isn't the entire point of financial wisdom the ability to resist these sorts of temptations?
I don't think it is - I think it is to separate which temptations should be resisted and which should be indulged. Financial wisdom should serve the goal of providing utility, not be an end in itself.
Driving a Prius has no financially-justifiable practical benefit over driving a Camry. I see what you're saying with regards utility value, but we aren't talking about a small expense here.
That's relative. If you are talking about a 5-10k upgrade over the trade-in value of the Camry for someone who is earning $250k a year, it really is a small expense. If you are talking about 15-20k upgrade for someone making 50k a year it is a different story.

Of course we all value different luxuries in life - but I fear that if we allow frugality to drive all luxury from life we have lost sight of the reasons to be frugal in the first place.

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Post by The Wizard » Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:56 pm

Perpetual wrote:......Then again, I drive a 2004 Civic that doesn't even have electronic door locks and windows and I plan on driving it for another 5-10 years at least.
Are you telling us you have to reach up and turn a HAND CRANK thingie to open or close a window in that car???
*shaking head unbelievably...*

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Post by The Wizard » Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:59 pm

avalpert wrote:....Of course we all value different luxuries in life - but I fear that if we allow frugality to drive all luxury from life we have lost sight of the reasons to be frugal in the first place.
This is an excellent statement and deserves to be framed.

Selective frugality enables us to throw money at those hobbies and pursuits where nothing else will do...

Perpetual
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Post by Perpetual » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:07 pm

The Wizard wrote:
Perpetual wrote:......Then again, I drive a 2004 Civic that doesn't even have electronic door locks and windows and I plan on driving it for another 5-10 years at least.
Are you telling us you have to reach up and turn a HAND CRANK thingie to open or close a window in that car???
*shaking head unbelievably...*
Hey, when I was shopping for this car, it said "value package" on it so I assumed it actually contained, you know, value.

I was wrong about that - I should probably have dished out 500 bucks more to get electronic locks and windows. But then I wouldn't have air conditioning, and would have to pay another 1000 to get that. So yeah.

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Post by bc3x » Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:25 pm

The turtle shape of the Prius reduces drag but aesthetically it's downright frumpy. Yes, Louis Sullivan was correct that "form ever follows function", but the Prius doesn't need to look like a turtle shell. Since decreasing carbon dioxide emissions was toward the top of the priority list, aesthetics was not a major consideration. Nonetheless, I'm quite fond of my Prius.
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Re: Coveting a Prius. Trade my 2007 Camry for new Prius?

Post by Dagwood » Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:58 pm

maximus wrote:I have a 2007 Camry XLE with 30K miles. I was planning to keep this car for at least 10 years. But I've always wanted to get a Prius and that desire has only gotten stronger. I drive about 15K miles/year so that may not be much to justify the price of the Prius. But I love everything about the Prius. But I'm also rather frugal and don't want to make a poor financial decision.

How do I analyze whether trading in my Camry for the Prius makes sense financially? How should I think about this? What would a Boglehead do?
Have you driven a Prius? Not that your Camry is a race car, but while the Prius is efficient, it's certainly nothing to write home about in terms of the driving experience.

It's not possible to justify the situation based on the financial aspects, as VT said, but at the same time you only go around once in this life so if you really want the car and the difference in cost between your trade-in / private party sale Camry and the Prius isn't a huge amount of money relative to your income, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

But to my original point, I would try to drive a Prius for a substantial period before committing. I've had a few as rentals and I was never really sad to give back the keys. IMHO, fwiw, the Civic EX is a much nicer car to drive -- quicker, more responsive, more comfortable, and usable.

HTH and good luck.

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Re: Coveting a Prius. Trade my 2007 Camry for new Prius?

Post by wander » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:45 pm

maximus wrote:I have a 2007 Camry XLE with 30K miles. I was planning to keep this car for at least 10 years. But I've always wanted to get a Prius and that desire has only gotten stronger. I drive about 15K miles/year so that may not be much to justify the price of the Prius. But I love everything about the Prius. But I'm also rather frugal and don't want to make a poor financial decision.

How do I analyze whether trading in my Camry for the Prius makes sense financially? How should I think about this? What would a Boglehead do?
I thought you planned to keep it until 2017. We may want to discuss this topic in 2017.
My car is 1997 and I still drive it. Even Prius runs with water which it does not, there is no way for me to spend $20k+ with interest while I pay nothing with an old car. 15k miles a year will cost me about $2000 worth of gas. Not a saving mathematically.

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maximus
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Post by maximus » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:21 pm

Thank you all for the feedback. I think I'll keep my Camry.

Interestingly, I found this article in the WSJ: "Comparative Fuel Economies and Costs"
http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/docum ... 00407.html

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Post by rec7 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:42 am

JasonR wrote:A Boglehead would keep the Camry and drive it into the ground. Get a hold of yourself, man! (slap, slap)
So true!
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Post by NYnative » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:13 am

[quote="Perpetual"][
I was wrong about that - I should probably have dished out 500 bucks more to get electronic locks and windows. But then I wouldn't have air conditioning, and would have to pay another 1000 to get that. So yeah.[/quote]

Air conditioning??? We don't need no steenkin' air conditioning :lol: I like 4/40 A/C - 4 open windows at 40 mph. :twisted: And a roll of paper towels.

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Post by strafe » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:25 am

Ford Fusion Hybrid pays off the quickest (5 years) compared to the standard Fusion.

Prius takes 20 yrs. Article commenters criticized the comparison of the hybrid Prius against its non-hybrid-equivalent Yaris. Having driven both, I think the comparison is fair.

Of course the Fusion Hybrid lacks that more-money-than-sense cachet.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... a43617.DTL

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Post by HomerJ » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:43 am

restonham wrote:
Perpetual wrote: I was wrong about that - I should probably have dished out 500 bucks more to get electronic locks and windows. But then I wouldn't have air conditioning, and would have to pay another 1000 to get that. So yeah.
Air conditioning??? We don't need no steenkin' air conditioning :lol: I like 4/40 A/C - 4 open windows at 40 mph. :twisted: And a roll of paper towels.
My first new car had hand-cranked windows and no A/C... I even told them to leave out the dashboard cloak (saved me another $75)... This was back in 1994, and I drove that car to 2001.. I would have kept it longer, but we needed a mini-van, not a hatchback...

No AC was a mistake though... :) I bought the car in New Hampshire where summer lasts about 2 weeks in August...

Unfortunately I moved to Missouri about a year later...

Interesting side-note: Whenever I drive my car with the windows down on the highway (which my wife hates, so I usually only do it alone), it makes me feel like I'm in my 20s again...

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Post by avalpert » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:02 pm

strafe wrote:Ford Fusion Hybrid pays off the quickest (5 years) compared to the standard Fusion.

Prius takes 20 yrs. Article commenters criticized the comparison of the hybrid Prius against its non-hybrid-equivalent Yaris. Having driven both, I think the comparison is fair.

Of course the Fusion Hybrid lacks that more-money-than-sense cachet.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... a43617.DTL
Yaris to Prius is an absurd comparison. The Yaris is smaller, much smaller storage space, and the standard features aren't anywhere near comparable (like standard cruise control/cd player not to mention the prius' smart entry and other technology not available on a yaris at all). If you want to say it is a better value car, fine but there are better values out there. If you are trying to isolate the cost of hybrid the comparison and payback analysis makes no sense - it assumes no value to the customer on any of the additional features of the prius.

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Post by maxinout » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:10 pm

We actually just got a 2010 Prius II. Base model. No frills, but it's getting 57mpg combined, which is pretty cool.

We leased it. 36 month, 12k miles per year, and didn't put a penny down. With all taxes/fees rolled into the payment, it's $260 per month. This is in Northern NJ. I know leasing is frowned upon in many bogl'ish circles, but it works for us as my wife is paranoid about having a new car for "safety" reasons.

Plus they're offering 2 years of free service on most Toyota models right now.

Prior to this we had a Lexus IS250 for $484 a month, so that coupled with higher insurance and fuel costs, I'm very happy with the "savings" of the Prius.

It's a neat little car. No IS250, but still pretty novel.
Last edited by maxinout on Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by maxinout » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:16 pm

avalpert wrote:
strafe wrote:Ford Fusion Hybrid pays off the quickest (5 years) compared to the standard Fusion.

Prius takes 20 yrs. Article commenters criticized the comparison of the hybrid Prius against its non-hybrid-equivalent Yaris. Having driven both, I think the comparison is fair.

Of course the Fusion Hybrid lacks that more-money-than-sense cachet.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... a43617.DTL
Yaris to Prius is an absurd comparison. The Yaris is smaller, much smaller storage space, and the standard features aren't anywhere near comparable (like standard cruise control/cd player not to mention the prius' smart entry and other technology not available on a yaris at all). If you want to say it is a better value car, fine but there are better values out there. If you are trying to isolate the cost of hybrid the comparison and payback analysis makes no sense - it assumes no value to the customer on any of the additional features of the prius.
I second that notion. The Yaris feels like a wagon to me -- loud as heck bumps, wind and road noise, etc. It feels so flimsy. The Corolla even feels cheap compared to the Prius to me. It seems to fit between the Corolla and Camry in terms of comfort.

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Post by KyleAAA » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:21 pm

Before making the decision, you should know the pollution stemming from manufacturing the Prius's battery system is probably greater than the pollution from your gas-burning Camry over its lifetime. From an environmental perspective, most hybrids don't make sense.

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Post by ryuns » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:57 pm

KyleAAA wrote:Before making the decision, you should know the pollution stemming from manufacturing the Prius's battery system is probably greater than the pollution from your gas-burning Camry over its lifetime. From an environmental perspective, most hybrids don't make sense.
Not sure why this myth persists, but it's certainly not true from a thermodynamic or greenhouse gas perspective.

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Post by KyleAAA » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:22 pm

ryuns wrote: Not sure why this myth persists, but it's certainly not true from a thermodynamic or greenhouse gas perspective.
It's not a myth.
Modern hybrids did not exist in 1998.
Also a grossly outdated study. The electric components in modern hybrids are significantly more wasteful than those of 10 years ago simply because they are more powerful. Additionally, the above study doesn't take other forms of pollution into account. Carbon emissions aren't the only form of pollution. They aren't even the most serious. Battery acid is nasty stuff.

Additionally, modern gas cars are far more fuel-efficient than they were 10 years ago, on average, and hybrids are less fuel-efficient than they once were, again on average. There are tons of hybrids that barely top 20mpg.

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Post by bc3x » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:16 pm

EPA's 2010 ranking has Prius as the most fuel efficient. My own Prius ranges from 71 mpg to 45 mpg depending on terrain and temperature. I know of no one who gets 71 mpg.

In regards to battery toxicity, hybridcars.com notes:

"The hybrid battery packs are designed to last for the lifetime of the vehicle, somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles, probably a whole lot longer. The warranty covers the batteries for between eight and ten years, depending on the carmaker.

Battery toxicity is a concern, although today's hybrids use NiMH batteries, not the environmentally problematic rechargeable nickel cadmium. "Nickel metal hydride batteries are benign. They can be fully recycled," says Ron Cogan, editor of the Green Car Journal. Toyota and Honda say that they will recycle dead batteries and that disposal will pose no toxic hazards. Toyota puts a phone number on each battery, and they pay a $200 "bounty" for each battery to help ensure that it will be properly recycled.

There's no definitive word on replacement costs because they are almost never replaced. According to Toyota, since the Prius first went on sale in 2000, they have not replaced a single battery for wear and tear."

More on battery toxicity.

In the life of a conventional vehicle the lead acid battery is replaced 2 or more times. When done improperly by owners, acidic burns can occur. The Prius battery is completely enclosed. If replacement is necessary, most owners would take it to the dealership because they lack the expertise. In these two regards, the Prius battery would be safer than the lead acid battery.

If the lead acid battery is intrinsically more toxic than the nickel metal hydride battery, why would the manufacture of the former be less polluting than the latter?

From Wikipedia, "The EPA and California Air Resources Board (CARB) also rate the Prius as among the cleanest vehicles sold in the United States based on smog forming and toxic emissions."
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Post by dkdoy » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:00 pm

We bought a Camry Hybrid and love it. If you do choose hybrid I think you will be happy.

strafe
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Post by strafe » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:16 pm

avalpert wrote:
strafe wrote:Ford Fusion Hybrid pays off the quickest (5 years) compared to the standard Fusion.

Prius takes 20 yrs. Article commenters criticized the comparison of the hybrid Prius against its non-hybrid-equivalent Yaris. Having driven both, I think the comparison is fair.

Of course the Fusion Hybrid lacks that more-money-than-sense cachet.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... a43617.DTL
Yaris to Prius is an absurd comparison. The Yaris is smaller, much smaller storage space, and the standard features aren't anywhere near comparable (like standard cruise control/cd player not to mention the prius' smart entry and other technology not available on a yaris at all). If you want to say it is a better value car, fine but there are better values out there. If you are trying to isolate the cost of hybrid the comparison and payback analysis makes no sense - it assumes no value to the customer on any of the additional features of the prius.
I agree that the yaris is smaller and has fewer cubbyholes to shove in big macs. But having driven both, they both land on the same part of the feels-like-a-tin-can and handles-like-a-pig spectrum, although I acknowledge that the corolla is probably reasonable comparison.

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ryuns
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Post by ryuns » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:20 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
ryuns wrote: Not sure why this myth persists, but it's certainly not true from a thermodynamic or greenhouse gas perspective.
It's not a myth.
Modern hybrids did not exist in 1998.
Also a grossly outdated study. The electric components in modern hybrids are significantly more wasteful than those of 10 years ago simply because they are more powerful. Additionally, the above study doesn't take other forms of pollution into account. Carbon emissions aren't the only form of pollution. They aren't even the most serious. Battery acid is nasty stuff.

Additionally, modern gas cars are far more fuel-efficient than they were 10 years ago, on average, and hybrids are less fuel-efficient than they once were, again on average. There are tons of hybrids that barely top 20mpg.
[citation needed]

bc3x did a good job debunking. But, quickly:

You were comparing a Prius to a Camry. So the fact that there are "tons of hybrids that barely top 20mpg" is a total non-sequitur.

Prius IS MORE efficient than it was when it was first introduced, not less.

Hybrid batteries (NiMH) do not contain acid like Pb-acid batteries do.

Carbon emissions, IMO, are a serious threat while toxics in vehicles are pretty well handled in this country. (Again, that's an opinion, but in many locations, air pollution is also undeniably a big deal, and most hybrids are far cleaner from the tailpipe than other cars, particularly older ones.)

Fuel economy, on average, has not increased appreciably over the last 10 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_ ... _standards

Just my two cents.
An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered; an adventure is an inconvenience rightly considered. -- GK Chesterton

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tadamsmar
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Post by tadamsmar » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:16 pm

maxinout wrote:We actually just got a 2010 Prius II. Base model. No frills, but it's getting 57mpg combined, which is pretty cool.

We leased it. 36 month, 12k miles per year, and didn't put a penny down. With all taxes/fees rolled into the payment, it's $260 per month. This is in Northern NJ. I know leasing is frowned upon in many bogl'ish circles, but it works for us as my wife is paranoid about having a new car for "safety" reasons.
Plese explain about having new cars being viewed a safety hazard.

And, isn't a 2010 Prius a new car?

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Post by KyleAAA » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:16 pm

ryuns wrote:
[citation needed]
Funny how when somebody makes a completely irrelevant citation, the inevitable refutation is met with "well why don't you cite your sources?" It happens every time. I don't need a counter-source to refute an erroneous source.
ryuns wrote:
You were comparing a Prius to a Camry. So the fact that there are "tons of hybrids that barely top 20mpg" is a total non-sequitur.
At absolutely no point in time did I compare a camry to a prius.

ryuns wrote: Hybrid batteries (NiMH) do not contain acid like Pb-acid batteries do.
NiMH batteries are only slightly less bad than traditional nickel cadmium

ryuns wrote: Fuel economy, on average, has not increased appreciably over the last 10 years. http://en.wikipedia.org
Perhaps not average fuel economy, but fuel economy of likely substitutes certainly have. I average about 42mpg in my Corolla.

The Wizard
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Post by The Wizard » Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:46 am

tadamsmar wrote:
maxinout wrote:We actually just got a 2010 Prius II. Base model. No frills, but it's getting 57mpg combined, which is pretty cool.

We leased it. 36 month, 12k miles per year, and didn't put a penny down. With all taxes/fees rolled into the payment, it's $260 per month. This is in Northern NJ. I know leasing is frowned upon in many bogl'ish circles, but it works for us as my wife is paranoid about having a new car for "safety" reasons.
Plese explain about having new cars being viewed a safety hazard.

And, isn't a 2010 Prius a new car?
I think you have this point backwards...

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Post by Valuethinker » Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:07 am

KyleAAA wrote:
ryuns wrote: Not sure why this myth persists, but it's certainly not true from a thermodynamic or greenhouse gas perspective.
It's not a myth.
Actually it is.

The most authoritative studies are referenced in the IPCC stuff on transportation.

The data we have suggests that (from memory) about 15% of the lifecycle emissions of a car are from its manufacture and about 2-3% from its scrappage. That's on a 200k km life.

The battery pack and other gizmos on a Prius could conceivably add 5% to that.

Offset against that you have the considerably higher fuel economy of a Prius against a conventional car in the same class. That, to be fair, really plays out well in urban stop and go driving-- it's a smaller margin on highway driving.

On UK numbers that's CO2g/km of about 104 for a Prius, vs. say an average of 160-165 for sedans of similar size.

Confusing the issue you don't have the diesel cars and some of the small engined gasoline cars we have in Europe (which get good fuel economy but do put out a lot of tailpipe emissions).

To argue your point, you'd have to come up with an estimate that the emissions in building the battery are *more than* 1/3rd of the emissions of building the whole car. Quite frankly, I would suggest that the real number is more like 2-3% Ie 20% of all the emissions in building a car.

Nobody has come up with better or more authoritative estimates than the ones the IPCC used, AFAIK.

If you google around, Argonne Labs (US DOE) also has some models and data.

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Post by Valuethinker » Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:10 am

restonham wrote:
Perpetual wrote:[
I was wrong about that - I should probably have dished out 500 bucks more to get electronic locks and windows. But then I wouldn't have air conditioning, and would have to pay another 1000 to get that. So yeah.
Air conditioning??? We don't need no steenkin' air conditioning :lol: I like 4/40 A/C - 4 open windows at 40 mph. :twisted: And a roll of paper towels.
You know, I am pretty sure the weather has changed making car air conditioning more of a necessity. Either the weather or the traffic, or both.

Here in the UK 25 years ago I never would have considered car AC. Now I think it pretty essential. We have a lot more long hot spells. Not every summer to be sure, but enough really scorching heatwaves.

Similarly in southern Ontario, I don't remember the kinds of heatwaves that seem to throw up every 2-3 years now, where the temperature shoots to over 90 and stays there not for a couple of days, but for weeks on end.

Also I suppose the traffic is worse. There is an urban heat island effect, to be sure. But still, even stripping those out.

JasonR
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Post by JasonR » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:27 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
restonham wrote:
Perpetual wrote:[
I was wrong about that - I should probably have dished out 500 bucks more to get electronic locks and windows. But then I wouldn't have air conditioning, and would have to pay another 1000 to get that. So yeah.
Air conditioning??? We don't need no steenkin' air conditioning :lol: I like 4/40 A/C - 4 open windows at 40 mph. :twisted: And a roll of paper towels.
You know, I am pretty sure the weather has changed making car air conditioning more of a necessity. Either the weather or the traffic, or both.

Here in the UK 25 years ago I never would have considered car AC. Now I think it pretty essential. We have a lot more long hot spells. Not every summer to be sure, but enough really scorching heatwaves.

Similarly in southern Ontario, I don't remember the kinds of heatwaves that seem to throw up every 2-3 years now, where the temperature shoots to over 90 and stays there not for a couple of days, but for weeks on end.

Also I suppose the traffic is worse. There is an urban heat island effect, to be sure. But still, even stripping those out.
You're just getting old. Music was better then, too.

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