Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

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visualguy
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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by visualguy » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:22 am

Truly depressing to think about this, and very easy to be in denial. If I remember correctly, about 15% of people never have children in the US, so this is a fairly common problem.

Cruise
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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by Cruise » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:33 pm

Dave bricoleur wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:52 pm
and re: suicide when feeble

It might be possible to set up an email deadman switch so that after some number of unanswered emails it funds "Dial-a-Hitman" and a professional comes out to finish me off when I'm face down in the mashed potatoes.

Hopefully the hitman looks first to make sure it's not an unplugged modem or overly active spam filter...

-dave
LOL. Thanks! :happy

j0nnyg1984
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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by j0nnyg1984 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:42 pm

As I'm only 36, I've only given this a small amount of thought. I have a parent with Alzheimer's, so my #1 thing is that I will not let that happen to me. I just hope I can do something about it before it's too late.

I'm saving tons of money for "retirement," no wife, no kids, no real desire for either. I just plan to move to south america or somewhere similar at around 50, 55, 60 years old. Enjoy life as much as possible, and when it's time to go, I'll figure out a way.

Death and old age isn't something I waste much of my time thinking about.

InMyDreams
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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by InMyDreams » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:12 am

6miths wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:58 pm
...the secret to happiness in old age was to have at least two daughters...
The Blue Zones, a book on longevity, reported that, on average, men with daughters live longer. Seems to be true for my father :)

fourwheelcycle
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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by fourwheelcycle » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:08 pm

I have been on vacation and just saw this thread. Two alternatives for this concern are residential and in-home continuing care retirement communities (CCRCs). As an example, here are two links to an organization that offers both services:

In-Home Support

https://www.kendalathome.org/kendal-at-home-living

Residential Community Support

https://kao.kendal.org

You have to shop carefully, but there are many high quality, reputable, usually not-for-profit residential CCRCs across the US.

The in-home CCRC model is much more difficult to develop and there are very few of them in the US. The link I have provided is for a program located in northeastern Ohio, but they may be a good source for information about similar programs elsewhere in the country.

Either model provides a caring organization that will look after you, advocate for you, and coordinate 100% of your life care needs for the rest of your life. Many people who have adult children choose these models to maintain their independence and minimize impacts on their children's lives as they age. For people who do not have adult children or other living relatives these models can provide possible choices for the question posed by this thread.

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CULater
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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by CULater » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:08 pm

I recently found out that there are many new senior coop apartment residences springing up around the Midwest. The model seems to be about 50-60 apartments. You purchase your own apartment and pay a monthly fee that covers utilities, maintenance, property taxes, etc. Generally residents must be 55+, 65+ or so. The residents govern their own community, and there seems to be a shared community mentality, frequent social interaction, and so forth. You are living independently in your own apartment, but as you age in place you would be able to hire home care to remain in your apartment. If the time comes to move to an assisted living facility or nursing home, the coop takes care of selling your apartment with a minimum of fuss and cost. My guess is that the community of residents will likely provide mutual support for each other, so you'll have people around. Also, it seems to me that the community of residents may be a good resource for developing plans, resources, and professional contacts to help with aging. I'm looking into this alternative right now.
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minskbelarus47
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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by minskbelarus47 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:56 pm

We are looking at a CCRC in Lancaster PA and discover an added benefit. We are both Feds retired, get SS, and moving to PA will increase our monthly cash flow by about $2K a month. Here is how. We will no longer pay VA income taxes (500/month), local real estate taxes (900/month) and will no longer belong to a golf club (600/month). I will play golf but the fees are considerably less. Of course the monthly fees at a CCRC are high $5k+, but the services and facilities available are stunning. My wife has already said we will eat out more. I can't wait to be part of this community, which is financially sound, and very caring with excellent medical and memory care.

ftm68_99jay
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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by ftm68_99jay » Fri May 10, 2019 8:45 pm

Hi. Could you tell us the name of the CCRC you were thinking of (In PA?) And if you've had a chance to visit it, your impressions? Thanks.

Tay

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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by CULater » Sat May 11, 2019 3:31 pm

Then there's this. Pick an age you don't want to live beyond and just then just quit doing all the stuff we are automatically conditioned to do to keep ourselves living as long as possible. At some point, the more we strive for quantity of life the more we will be compromising our quality of life. There's an inverse relationship between the two. I'm moving toward implementing this view. Anything primarily intended to facilitate living longer, I will stop doing; anything primarily intended to promote the quality of my remaining life, I will do.
My Osler-inspired philosophy is this: At 75 and beyond, I will need a good reason to even visit the doctor and take any medical test or treatment, no matter how routine and painless. And that good reason is not “It will prolong your life.” I will stop getting any regular preventive tests, screenings, or interventions. I will accept only palliative—not curative—treatments if I am suffering pain or other disability.

This means colonoscopies and other cancer-screening tests are out—and before 75. If I were diagnosed with cancer now, at 57, I would probably be treated, unless the prognosis was very poor. But 65 will be my last colonoscopy. No screening for prostate cancer at any age. (When a urologist gave me a PSA test even after I said I wasn’t interested and called me with the results, I hung up before he could tell me. He ordered the test for himself, I told him, not for me.) After 75, if I develop cancer, I will refuse treatment. Similarly, no cardiac stress test. No pacemaker and certainly no implantable defibrillator. No heart-valve replacement or bypass surgery. If I develop emphysema or some similar disease that involves frequent exacerbations that would, normally, land me in the hospital, I will accept treatment to ameliorate the discomfort caused by the feeling of suffocation, but will refuse to be hauled off.

What about simple stuff? Flu shots are out. Certainly if there were to be a flu pandemic, a younger person who has yet to live a complete life ought to get the vaccine or any antiviral drugs. A big challenge is antibiotics for pneumonia or skin and urinary infections. Antibiotics are cheap and largely effective in curing infections. It is really hard for us to say no. Indeed, even people who are sure they don’t want life-extending treatments find it hard to refuse antibiotics. But, as Osler reminds us, unlike the decays associated with chronic conditions, death from these infections is quick and relatively painless. So, no to antibiotics.

Obviously, a do-not-resuscitate order and a complete advance directive indicating no ventilators, dialysis, surgery, antibiotics, or any other medication—nothing except palliative care even if I am conscious but not mentally competent—have been written and recorded. In short, no life-sustaining interventions. I will die when whatever comes first takes me
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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by JPM » Sat May 11, 2019 4:52 pm

In our area there is an excellent luxe continuing care community for a few hundred of the relatively rich. Independent to assisted to nursing home. Some end up going back and forth between nursing home and asslsted living when they need to rehab from some medical adventure. The independent and assisted living apartments are very nice, the dining room very good as well. Many on campus activities and local excursions as well. Everyone there probably chose it. First time I visited a friend there it reminded me of a college dorm for old people. Few residents there are less than mid eighties.

There are three continuing care communities for the nearly or frugal rich which are not as luxe. One for those of modest means as well that is subsidized as part of a fraternal order's charitable apostolate. Most people with means choose assisted living or continuing care communities with a bank or other trustee or guardian as backup in case of mental incapacity.

Most people in our area who become disabled without arranging for a responsible guardian end up as wards of the county guardian's office as the default option. The county guardian assumes control of the person and property of the disabled individual. The county guardian's office is self-supporting on fees from its wards. People with guardians who do not submit the state-required guardianship reports become wards of the county guardian's office. Some very well-to-do local people have ended as wards of the county guardian for lack of advance planning. The office has been well run for the 40 years I have dealt with it and the personnel have been honest and knowledgeable and do their best to see that their wards have appropriate living arrangements and good medical. But the service is costly.

One friend had a very nice pastor at his Episcopal church serve as his guardian and she did an excellent job for him as his mind body failed him over his last two years in his early 90s. She is an exceptionally smart and generous person and this is probably not a realistic solution for very many.

retire2022
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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by retire2022 » Sat May 11, 2019 5:23 pm

auntie wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:47 pm
The older I get the more I worry.

My parents are in their 90s and still in good health but I see the time coming soon when my brother and I will have to spend a lot of effort caring for them. Not financially, but looking out for their interests when they can't. We don't want them abused or taken advantage of.

So in 20 or 30 years I'll be old and in need of someone who really cares about me to look after my interests. My brother is older than I am, and probably won't be available for me. I don't have any cousins that are younger and care about me.

You can't hire someone to care about you.

Anybody have a solution?
auntie

I'm 58 year soon to be retiree, living in an urban city, NYC. My advice to you, without knowing when you live, one must tell us about yourself, are you in a rural community, suburban or urban?

What are your social skills or lack of? I'm male and introvert, but I go out of my way to make new friends, today I went downstairs to our private park to get to know my neighbors. I did not really want to meet them but I fight that thought.

You should be making new friends everyday, it is all about being connected to your community. Start meet-up on your favorite hobby, join a local social club, friends care about friends.

Don't think you are being independent by not socializing that is overrated. Culturally my parent generation, was the breeder mind, that the kid was going to take care of them, not the case, my mother is 88, and culturally very different from the "dazed and confused generation".

One needs to plan ahead not only financially but socially. One is in trouble if they are island in their own mind.

good luck

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auntie
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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by auntie » Sat May 11, 2019 7:03 pm

It's ten years later. As predicted both my parents needed help as they aged. I was there for them. I realized even more that friends are nice but they won't do all the caring that family will do. I have many friends, so that isn't the problem.

I have put my name on the waiting list at the place my dad spent his last 3 years. When I'm ready to go there they will be available.

Meanwhile, I'm getting to know some younger cousins. It can't hurt.
High risk does not equal high reward. It equals high risk of no reward.

staythecourse
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Re: Re:

Post by staythecourse » Sat May 11, 2019 7:24 pm

Dottie57 wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:20 pm
auntie wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:21 am
I was hoping someone would have already set up something like what I've been thinking about so I wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel, but no one has mentioned it yet, so it probably hasn't happened.

I'm thinking about starting a group of local people in similar situations, having it primarily a social group but with the understanding that we are to act as family when one of us needs help.

I don't know how hard it would be to set up. It would have to be a small enough group that everyone would know everyone else, yet large enough that there would be enough people with the correct time and talents.

I'm not thinking about long-term care, just watching over the people hired to do the jobs needed, and someone to deal with the sudden emergencies that may come up.

I'll probably be moving to a senior community in the next 5-10 years and there should be enough prospects there. If anyone had already done something like that I'd sure like to hear about it and learn from their experiences.

*edit*
While I was typing tetractys mentioned what I was thinking about. Any idea how to find out about such a thing?

I have friends whoare in same situation (as am I). And we have half jokingly talked f living together. Or buying in the condo communityso we can keep track of each other.
I think this is an excellent idea. Kills multiple birds with one stone (social/ helping take care of each other/ etc...). My parent's set of friends have already done that. They all have kids and grandkids so the issue is not about needing someone to help out, but for social. They all bought from a builder in a community in an Orlando suburb. They all live within 1 mile of each other. Sounds great. I didn't want my parents to go though as the healthcare in Florida is suboptimal in quality (in my opinion), but think otherwise it is a fantastic idea.

Heck, we have kids and am already starting the recruiting process of getting all our friends to move to the same place for ER. Trying to sell Charleston!!

Good luck.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle

retire2022
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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by retire2022 » Sat May 11, 2019 7:49 pm

auntie wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 7:03 pm
It's ten years later. As predicted both my parents needed help as they aged. I was there for them. I realized even more that friends are nice but they won't do all the caring that family will do. I have many friends, so that isn't the problem.

I have put my name on the waiting list at the place my dad spent his last 3 years. When I'm ready to go there they will be available.

Meanwhile, I'm getting to know some younger cousins. It can't hurt.
My family is from China, they have the same thinking, you have to break out of that I tell you, my cousin lives in NJ with two autistic teen children, if she didn't have her husband who forced her to move to the suburbs in an open community, she would not have her neighbors care about her kids.

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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by Wildebeest » Sat May 11, 2019 8:12 pm

6miths wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:58 pm
A copy of Atul Gawande's 'Being Mortal' is sitting on my bedside table and I have read and listened to it a few times. Also give it to students I teach. An wise old psychiatrist told me years ago when I was his student that the secret to happiness in old age was to have at least two daughters. Times have probably changed but it seemed like good advice at the time and I am lucky enough to have four children two of whom are of the fairer sex. His advice isn't particularly helpful for those with no children or with no children who are close of course. A large social circle and a caring community would likely be helpful. Some people find this in their local church and some in their community. I recently signed up for community odd jobs programme which does tasks for those who can't and presumably can't afford to hire professionals. Obviously things like legal decision making are more difficult to deal with.
Even if you have children and better still a loving spouse, which hopefully will outlive you, a lot can go wrong.

Another vote that "Being Mortal" by Atul Awande is a great read in preparation for life in our seventies, eighties and nineties.

It is a must read for children with parents, who are in declining health.
The Golden Rule: One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.

retire2022
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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by retire2022 » Sun May 12, 2019 11:16 am

Op and all check out this thread

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=241274

texasdiver
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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by texasdiver » Sun May 12, 2019 12:36 pm

Haven't read this entire thread.

But it seems to me that portfolio design becomes pretty important in this situation. If you have heirs then maintaining a traditional retirement nest-egg that can be inherited is what most people seem to do.

On the other hand, if you have no heirs, or no immediate heirs that you care about then putting most of your retirement nest egg into annuities is going to greatly decrease the chances of being taken advantage of. I think it would be easier for an unscrupulous caretaker to steal a $1 million IRA compared to a monthly annuity check.

There must be a lot of fairly easy steps that elderly can take to bullet-proof or fraud-proof their portfolio in advance of this situation. I haven't researched this area because it hasn't come up in our family. But I suspect a lot has been written on the topic.

retire2022
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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by retire2022 » Sun May 12, 2019 12:44 pm

texasdiver wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 12:36 pm
Haven't read this entire thread.

But it seems to me that portfolio design becomes pretty important in this situation. If you have heirs then maintaining a traditional retirement nest-egg that can be inherited is what most people seem to do.

On the other hand, if you have no heirs, or no immediate heirs that you care about then putting most of your retirement nest egg into annuities is going to greatly decrease the chances of being taken advantage of. I think it would be easier for an unscrupulous caretaker to steal a $1 million IRA compared to a monthly annuity check.

There must be a lot of fairly easy steps that elderly can take to bullet-proof or fraud-proof their portfolio in advance of this situation. I haven't researched this area because it hasn't come up in our family. But I suspect a lot has been written on the topic.
Texasdiver, in some states if you require home care or nursing home the cost will consume your retirement savings, and a lien could be put on your assets, esp if Medicare is being billed for it, I know of one which happened to a grand nephew from estate of grand Aunt.

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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by texasdiver » Sun May 12, 2019 1:55 pm

retire2022 wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 12:44 pm
texasdiver wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 12:36 pm
Haven't read this entire thread.

But it seems to me that portfolio design becomes pretty important in this situation. If you have heirs then maintaining a traditional retirement nest-egg that can be inherited is what most people seem to do.

On the other hand, if you have no heirs, or no immediate heirs that you care about then putting most of your retirement nest egg into annuities is going to greatly decrease the chances of being taken advantage of. I think it would be easier for an unscrupulous caretaker to steal a $1 million IRA compared to a monthly annuity check.

There must be a lot of fairly easy steps that elderly can take to bullet-proof or fraud-proof their portfolio in advance of this situation. I haven't researched this area because it hasn't come up in our family. But I suspect a lot has been written on the topic.
Texasdiver, in some states if you require home care or nursing home the cost will consume your retirement savings, and a lien could be put on your assets, esp if Medicare is being billed for it, I know of one which happened to a grand nephew from estate of grand Aunt.
So is that an argument in favor of converting lump sum savings into annuities?

retire2022
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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by retire2022 » Sun May 12, 2019 2:05 pm

texasdiver wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 1:55 pm

So is that an argument in favor of converting lump sum savings into annuities?
No it means the senior citizen and their beneficiaries should seek estate planning attorney and consider setting up a trust before the owner gets too far gone not to know what happening, in NYS the claw back for Medicare/Medicaid is six years earlier.

So my friend the grand nephew should had advised his grand aunt to set up a trust, six years earlier before she had gotten sick and admitted to nursing home, I hope that clarifies.

One is forced to spend down assets if not put in a trust, that is my point.

I am not an attorney, so I recommend someone chime in this regards, perhaps bsteiner?

Post by bsteiner » Tue May 07, 2019 4:41 pm

Almost all of our clients create trusts in their Wills. That keeps the beneficiaries' inheritances out of their estates, and protects the beneficiaries' inheritances against their creditors and spouses, and Medicaid.


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=280592#p4533357

Swimmer
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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by Swimmer » Sun May 12, 2019 2:29 pm

minskbelarus47 wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:56 pm
We are looking at a CCRC in Lancaster PA and discover an added benefit. We are both Feds retired, get SS, and moving to PA will increase our monthly cash flow by about $2K a month. Here is how. We will no longer pay VA income taxes (500/month), local real estate taxes (900/month) and will no longer belong to a golf club (600/month). I will play golf but the fees are considerably less. Of course the monthly fees at a CCRC are high $5k+, but the services and facilities available are stunning. My wife has already said we will eat out more. I can't wait to be part of this community, which is financially sound, and very caring with excellent medical and memory care.
PA taxes are fine while retired. If you’re hoping to leave an inheritance, you’re probably aware of PA’s antiquated inheritance tax (paid by anyone other than spouse). It may well be one of the worst in the US. For example, children pay 4.5%. No exclusion.

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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by mpnret » Sun May 12, 2019 3:59 pm

Swimmer wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 2:29 pm
minskbelarus47 wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:56 pm
We are looking at a CCRC in Lancaster PA and discover an added benefit. We are both Feds retired, get SS, and moving to PA will increase our monthly cash flow by about $2K a month. Here is how. We will no longer pay VA income taxes (500/month), local real estate taxes (900/month) and will no longer belong to a golf club (600/month). I will play golf but the fees are considerably less. Of course the monthly fees at a CCRC are high $5k+, but the services and facilities available are stunning. My wife has already said we will eat out more. I can't wait to be part of this community, which is financially sound, and very caring with excellent medical and memory care.
PA taxes are fine while retired. If you’re hoping to leave an inheritance, you’re probably aware of PA’s antiquated inheritance tax (paid by anyone other than spouse). It may well be one of the worst in the US. For example, children pay 4.5%. No exclusion.
Yes that PA inheritance tax is a killer. We are contemplating a short move to PA from a adjacent high tax state. With large tax defered accounts we could save a sizable amount of money on RMD's and more by stepping up Roth conversions. Without any additional planning that savings is almost wiped out by the PA inheritance tax. We may still make the move with the thought that once one of us is gone the remaining one will move back or maybe just doing a lot of lifetime giving while in PA. We are still in the planning stages.

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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by beyou » Sun May 12, 2019 4:05 pm

j0nnyg1984 wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:42 pm
As I'm only 36, I've only given this a small amount of thought. I have a parent with Alzheimer's, so my #1 thing is that I will not let that happen to me. I just hope I can do something about it before it's too late.

I'm saving tons of money for "retirement," no wife, no kids, no real desire for either. I just plan to move to south america or somewhere similar at around 50, 55, 60 years old. Enjoy life as much as possible, and when it's time to go, I'll figure out a way.

Death and old age isn't something I waste much of my time thinking about.
Nobody thinks about it at your age, I would worry about them if they were thinking about these topics.
But I don't believe you will think the same at 60.

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Re: Growing old without kids or younger caring relatives

Post by bayview » Mon May 13, 2019 1:05 pm

ftm68_99jay wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:45 pm
Hi. Could you tell us the name of the CCRC you were thinking of (In PA?) And if you've had a chance to visit it, your impressions? Thanks.

Tay
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The post you responded to was from a thread inactive for a year and a half, and the poster hasn’t been active on the forums since February. He/she might see your question, or might not. It’s always a good idea to check dates on posts. This thread actually started in 2009, although the OP has recently updated.
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