Key Document Preservation and Access
Key Document Preservation and Access
I'm sure that this topic has come up before, but I would like to revisit it with the group in the era of 2FA.
Where do you keep your will, and other key documents ? How do you protect against rare adverse events like fire or theft ? I think I read that my county will let me file the original will with them. Any experiences to share ?
As a second question,
I have a master document that is not the will itself, saved to my Google account. It is not legally binding in any way, but it does hold a lot of information meant to aid my heirs, in particular it has a list of assets with designated beneficiaries. I wrote my Google password on the Will, but when my wife and I stress-tested it yesterday we found that 2FA is a major (though perhaps not insurmountable) barrier to accessing the account if my phone is not accessible. I went through the different second factor methods Google has implemented, and I found each one to be less than ideal. What have forum regulars chosen ?
My latest thought is to add a second password as an additional second factor method, and then to send the first factor (my usual password) to one of my two children, and to send the second factor password to my other child. That way if one child's account is compromised, mine is not. The system obviously breaks if a child cannot furnish their half of the 2FA pair but that would be a known event I could respond to if needed. The 2FA pair is written on the Will, but I'll think about changing that if I file the Will with the county. Opinions ?
Where do you keep your will, and other key documents ? How do you protect against rare adverse events like fire or theft ? I think I read that my county will let me file the original will with them. Any experiences to share ?
As a second question,
I have a master document that is not the will itself, saved to my Google account. It is not legally binding in any way, but it does hold a lot of information meant to aid my heirs, in particular it has a list of assets with designated beneficiaries. I wrote my Google password on the Will, but when my wife and I stress-tested it yesterday we found that 2FA is a major (though perhaps not insurmountable) barrier to accessing the account if my phone is not accessible. I went through the different second factor methods Google has implemented, and I found each one to be less than ideal. What have forum regulars chosen ?
My latest thought is to add a second password as an additional second factor method, and then to send the first factor (my usual password) to one of my two children, and to send the second factor password to my other child. That way if one child's account is compromised, mine is not. The system obviously breaks if a child cannot furnish their half of the 2FA pair but that would be a known event I could respond to if needed. The 2FA pair is written on the Will, but I'll think about changing that if I file the Will with the county. Opinions ?
Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
Yes, this has come up multiple times over the years. In the upper righthand corner is a google box for this forum. google storing documents and you'll get many posts on this subject.EricGold wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:01 am I'm sure that this topic has come up before, but I would like to revisit it with the group in the era of 2FA.
Where do you keep your will, and other key documents ? How do you protect against rare adverse events like fire or theft ? I think I read that my county will let me file the original will with them. Any experiences to share ?
As a second question,
I have a master document that is not the will itself, saved to my Google account. It is not legally binding in any way, but it does hold a lot of information meant to aid my heirs, in particular it has a list of assets with designated beneficiaries. I wrote my Google password on the Will, but when my wife and I stress-tested it yesterday we found that 2FA is a major (though perhaps not insurmountable) barrier to accessing the account if my phone is not accessible. I went through the different second factor methods Google has implemented, and I found each one to be less than ideal. What have forum regulars chosen ?
My latest thought is to add a second password as an additional second factor method, and then to send the first factor (my usual password) to one of my two children, and to send the second factor password to my other child. That way if one child's account is compromised, mine is not. The system obviously breaks if a child cannot furnish their half of the 2FA pair but that would be a known event I could respond to if needed. The 2FA pair is written on the Will, but I'll think about changing that if I file the Will with the county. Opinions ?
- My planning document for heirs is located in a shared (with them only) area of dropbox.
- Per our attorney's suggestion, original estate, POA, HIPAA, etc documents are kept at my house in a firebox with each document in a sealed baggy to help prevent water damage. Attorney suggested keeping them at home for faster access when needed.
- An electronic copy of all estate documents is kept on a USB drive in our safety deposit box, also inside a baggy.
- Finally, we're considering placing the same electronic copies onto Fidsafe for access by heirs and executors, not all of whom live nearby. That's just one of several cloud based options we're considering.
Estate documents aren't filed with the county where I live, so can't help you there.
Cheers.
Last edited by dcabler on Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Refusing or failing to fully understand an idea does not invalidate the idea itself, but it does undermine the opinions of those who are unwilling or unable to grasp it.
Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
Will is kept at home in our file cabinet. However, estates lawyer has a copy (original signed version) as well.
As for passwords, I use a password manager. My wife has access to that should something happen to me.
I have prepared a word document which sets forth - in considerable detail - the steps my DW needs to take should I predecease her and how to manage her financial affairs going forward. It also includes a list of all of our financial accounts. She has read it a number of times.
As for passwords, I use a password manager. My wife has access to that should something happen to me.
I have prepared a word document which sets forth - in considerable detail - the steps my DW needs to take should I predecease her and how to manage her financial affairs going forward. It also includes a list of all of our financial accounts. She has read it a number of times.
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Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
I haven’t done it yet, but I plan to upload copies of everything to Fidelity.
For now, I have an Aegis Apricorn thumb drive with numbered buttons on it and my wife knows the PIN.
I wish I had a solution for Google and 2FA. That’s tricky. Switch to Yubikey?
For now, I have an Aegis Apricorn thumb drive with numbered buttons on it and my wife knows the PIN.
I wish I had a solution for Google and 2FA. That’s tricky. Switch to Yubikey?
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Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
I keep the original will in the center drawer of my desk. My wife knows it is there as do selected siblings who might be the ones to access in extreme situations.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
I like the idea of a hardware key but I soured on the the ones I found when I read that a proprietary companion app is required.Bagels wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:10 am I wish I had a solution for Google and 2FA. That’s tricky. Switch to Yubikey?
Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
Is this different than the Google cloud ? I'd like to preserve the documents in a 2FA way, which brings me back to my original concern that 2FA may turn into an undesirable barrier to heirs, or an elderly wife with poor computer skills.dcabler wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:10 am - My planning document for heirs is located in a shared (with them only) area of dropbox.
I had discounted safes, but you cause me to revisit my conclusions. Thanks- Per our attorney's suggestion, original estate, POA, HIPAA, etc documents are kept at my house in a firebox with each document in a sealed baggy to help prevent water damage. Attorney suggested keeping them at home for faster access when needed.
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Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
I'm not sure which ones you looked at but that's certainly not true if you just want FIDO2/U2F capability. The apps are generally only required for additional functionality beyond the standardized hardware functionality or setting PINs on some platforms. If you want the key to act more like a password manager then the apps are required. In the case of yubico their app is open source
Personally I like the Yubikey Security Key series. Relatively inexpensive but can only be used for FIDO2 standardized 2FA which google supports. A couple of those should get you going.
Also, look into setting up Google Account Inactivity Contacts for someone authorized to get your data upon your death.
Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
That is interesting. Thanks !PersonalFinanceJam wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 8:18 am Also, look into setting up Google Account Inactivity Contacts for someone authorized to get your data upon your death.
Hmm, sounds like I may not understand the method. I read on vendor's sites things like this (example from Yubico, my red bolding):I'm not sure which ones you looked at but that's certainly not true if you just want FIDO2/U2F capability.
Yubico Authenticator App - Manage passkeys, FIDO2 PIN on desktop version
Last edited by EricGold on Mon Feb 03, 2025 8:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
Or (if you don't like Yubico): the Solo Key? Nitrokey?PersonalFinanceJam wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 8:18 amI'm not sure which ones you looked at but that's certainly not true if you just want FIDO2/U2F capability. The apps are generally only required for additional functionality beyond the standardized hardware functionality or setting PINs on some platforms. If you want the key to act more like a password manager then the apps are required. In the case of yubico their app is open sourceEricGold wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:30 am I like the idea of a hardware key but I soured on the the ones I found when I read that a proprietary companion app is required.
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Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
Wills are easily replaceable so I don't worry about fire or water damage. I have a signed original in my filing cabinet and another copy at the lawyers office. If the original one got destroyed, I could have a new one drafted and signed by day's end through my lawyer using the surviving version as a template.
As a rule, I keep anything sensitive off of my computer just to eliminate the stress of being hacked or stolen. All our accounts have a file folder in our filing cabinet with account numbers and phone numbers. Survivor only needs my death certificate to start the ball rolling to obtain the funds. Passwords are unnecessary though my spouse knows our master password used with our password manager.
As a rule, I keep anything sensitive off of my computer just to eliminate the stress of being hacked or stolen. All our accounts have a file folder in our filing cabinet with account numbers and phone numbers. Survivor only needs my death certificate to start the ball rolling to obtain the funds. Passwords are unnecessary though my spouse knows our master password used with our password manager.
Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
same; my criteria is to keep access simple. The harder you make it for the survivors, the more likely they will ignore it and curse you to eternity.lthenderson wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 8:39 am Wills are easily replaceable so I don't worry about fire or water damage. I have a signed original in my filing cabinet and another copy at the lawyers office.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
In California, at least, internet says a copy of the trust is likely sufficient if the original is destroyed, and apparently especially if the beneficiaries agree. So I have mine digitally copied, and my 2 adult sons would have no issue with that. I don’t want to cram it into fire box, but it is in my list of grab this in case of wildfire.
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Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
I have documents still in a safe deposit box, although it seems likely to go away (along with all other safe deposit boxes, I guess) any day now.
About the other document you mentioned listing your personal requests etc., I don't see the issue with that since there's no legal "original" issue and there's no confidential information in it.
About the other document you mentioned listing your personal requests etc., I don't see the issue with that since there's no legal "original" issue and there's no confidential information in it.
Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
We recently updated all of our estate planning documents.
After discussing with our attorney, we decided to keep all originals in a fire safe at home.
Attorney has copies of all documents and indicated they could be used with appropriate affidavits in the event of catastrophic loss of fire safe
We also uploaded all documents to Fidsafe and shared them with our children.
The nice thing about Fidsafe, is that you can also upload and share Excel spreadsheets and Word documents as well as PDF's.
After discussing with our attorney, we decided to keep all originals in a fire safe at home.
Attorney has copies of all documents and indicated they could be used with appropriate affidavits in the event of catastrophic loss of fire safe
We also uploaded all documents to Fidsafe and shared them with our children.
The nice thing about Fidsafe, is that you can also upload and share Excel spreadsheets and Word documents as well as PDF's.
Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
I'm of the strong opinion that for security critical accounts (e.g. Google -- if you use Gmail, Voice, Drive -- and banks, brokerages) there should never be a need for survivors to login with your account credentials. Everybody who needs access should have their own account and credentials, and methods of sharing or joint ownership should be employed. For stuff in Google Drive or Docs, it's very simple. I own a folder in Google Drive that has all of our financial documents, and the folder is shared with my wife's Google account (with full read and write privileges). Later in life, if our kids will need access because we've designated them as executors or whatever, I'd just share it (or at least part of it) with them too (probably read-only in that case).EricGold wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:01 am...saved to my Google account... I wrote my Google password on the Will, but when my wife and I stress-tested it yesterday we found that 2FA is a major (though perhaps not insurmountable) barrier to accessing the account... What have forum regulars chosen ?
Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
My perspective is, these documents are not very useful for ME to hold on to, but my loved ones that are involved/potentially involved after my passing will care, so they get copies.
As they update(rarely) I send them new copies. This also, hopefully, helps lower drama when I'm dead as everyone already knows my plans, they have copies already.
If you aren't willing to share the information ahead of time, Fidsafe: https://www.fidsafe.com/ Does what you want. Totally free from Fidelity, so the chances of them being around tomorrow is very high.
Otherwise, a password manager like 1Password or Bitwarden will also do what you want.
Personally, I just hand the data out to loved ones and make them keep track of the paperwork.
As they update(rarely) I send them new copies. This also, hopefully, helps lower drama when I'm dead as everyone already knows my plans, they have copies already.
If you aren't willing to share the information ahead of time, Fidsafe: https://www.fidsafe.com/ Does what you want. Totally free from Fidelity, so the chances of them being around tomorrow is very high.
Otherwise, a password manager like 1Password or Bitwarden will also do what you want.
Personally, I just hand the data out to loved ones and make them keep track of the paperwork.
Whether rich or poor, a young woman should know how a bank account works, understand the composition of mortgages and bonds, and know the value of interest and how it accumulates. -Hetty Green
Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
My father gave us (myself and my brother) an envelope with copies of his will and other documents/info. That would be my recommendation unless for some reason you don't want anyone to see it until after you passed away. It didn't include passwords/account numbers. He actually kept much of that in his retirement apartment in a spiral notebook which was handy to have.EricGold wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:01 am I'm sure that this topic has come up before, but I would like to revisit it with the group in the era of 2FA.
Where do you keep your will, and other key documents ? How do you protect against rare adverse events like fire or theft ? I think I read that my county will let me file the original will with them. Any experiences to share ?
As a second question,
I have a master document that is not the will itself, saved to my Google account. It is not legally binding in any way, but it does hold a lot of information meant to aid my heirs, in particular it has a list of assets with designated beneficiaries. I wrote my Google password on the Will, but when my wife and I stress-tested it yesterday we found that 2FA is a major (though perhaps not insurmountable) barrier to accessing the account if my phone is not accessible. I went through the different second factor methods Google has implemented, and I found each one to be less than ideal. What have forum regulars chosen ?
My latest thought is to add a second password as an additional second factor method, and then to send the first factor (my usual password) to one of my two children, and to send the second factor password to my other child. That way if one child's account is compromised, mine is not. The system obviously breaks if a child cannot furnish their half of the 2FA pair but that would be a known event I could respond to if needed. The 2FA pair is written on the Will, but I'll think about changing that if I file the Will with the county. Opinions ?
My attorney also has a copy of my legal documents.
And yeah, 2FA can be a pain at times. We had access to my father's apartment for a month or more after we proved to the retirement place that we were executors of the estate. My father used his home phone (landline) as 2FA for stuff so when I logged into his accounts and got the phone call I could answer it.
Some things like his Amazon account was handled questionably IMO. When I contacted them they told me it would be easiest to cancel/close the account via logging into his account and doing it from there. That is what I did but I'm thinking legally once someone passes you really shouldn't access their accounts, especially if your name isn't on it.
Greatly depends on how many assets/accounts you have. My father had a couple of brokerage accounts, a life insurance policy, bank account, cell phone, amazon, cable tv/internet, one car and the apartment. Most of that wasn't too hard to deal with. Vanguard gave me a hard time and the apartment had a rather long process to get the deposit back.
Actually I still check my father's accounts for anything we have missed but I really need to shut them down since its been a few years. Most of his emails are all medicare insurance items.
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Re: Key Document Preservation and Access
I think the best place for the original will (and the original signed list of tangible personal property) is with the executor. Probably good for all beneficiaries to get a copy, along with the list of tangible personal property.
Otherwise, lots of bad scenarios can happen. Whoever finds the will first after you die may choose to destroy it. You could die in a disaster that destroys the will. Any valuables could go missing with no accountability.
Your ex-attorney isn't going to proactively go to court with a Word document or paper copy of the will on your behalf.
Otherwise, lots of bad scenarios can happen. Whoever finds the will first after you die may choose to destroy it. You could die in a disaster that destroys the will. Any valuables could go missing with no accountability.
Your ex-attorney isn't going to proactively go to court with a Word document or paper copy of the will on your behalf.