Parent passed away -- help with next steps

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GratuitousScrubs
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Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by GratuitousScrubs »

I know there are many posts in this forum on managing affairs when a parent passes. I've done some searching, and have read through many of them when they were fresh in the past. In the end, situations always end up being so personal and I can't avoid asking for me-specific advice just by mining those resources. I am hopeful that some members of this wonderful community can give us some good advice.

My mother in law passed away 2 weeks ago. She was a widow (x30 years). She lived with us for the last 10 years and entrusted her financial matters to our management, though never technically handed over the keys, so to speak. My wife is formally listed as the executor of her will and her first successor trustee. I am listed as the second successor trustee and am the "paperwork person" in the family, and hence will be playing QB on this.

Her estate is quite lean, and so I am hoping to streamline the process of closing it out without paying $3k+ to an estate attorney. Her estate consists of the following:

1. One piece of real property, located in the state we reside in (a few counties over). No debt. The property is held in trust. My wife is the successor trustee and sole beneficiary of the trust. The property is currently rented out. Our intention is to maintain this arrangement indefinitely.

2. A life insurance policy that her other child is the sole beneficiary of. She had previously given details about this policy to the other child. I have mailed a certified copy of the death certificate to that child, which to my understandin is all that she requires in order to collect.

3. A joint bank account that she held with me, that collected the rents from her property. I'm not transacting on this, but I believe there's no reason I shouldn't. It was never dual signature needed for doing anything.

4. A single owner bank account that she held with another bank in town, which collected her social security and pension checks and paid out premiums on the life insurance policy, and didn't do anything else. Negligible amounts of money in this account.

That's it. Some personal belongings of modest value were all give to her children at various times throughout life.

My initial read of things is that the only complicated job here is notifying the county recorder and registering the change in ownership of the house. I guess the Trust still owns the house either way, so until/unless my wife transfers to the property to a different trust then it's not much an event from a paperwork standpoint. The only hiccups are that the property taxes that were held at a sub market rate for so long due to Prop 13 will reappraise up to market, which will also form the basis of the inherited estate. This is all below any estate tax exemption limit.

I know I'll need to notify SSA, Medicare, her pension provider, her banks, Experian (or other), DMV.

I don't think I'll need to notify probate court, as the assets were way below the $160kish threshold.

I'll need to pay her 2024 taxes. I paid her taxes every year so that's fine. We are gathering her 1099s at home.

Has anyone been through something similar and come away with experience they can offer? We are in Southern California btw.
gotoparks
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by gotoparks »

Seems you got a handle on everything. Not sure what you are looking for. With not many assets you don't need probate. The funeral home will contact Social Security so check with them. Avoid email and call. You can get much more done that way. People are not good at understanding email in my experience. Sorry for your loss.
Marq1
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by Marq1 »

My mom passed away in 2023. A lot of similar circumstances other than we (my sister and I) sold her house.

She had a trust so all those accounts eventually were moved to me, I sent out monies to the grandkids per her wishes. Once the house was sold we simply divided up the value of the sale and securities and I wrote a check to my sister. Accounts, bills, possessions took a little time to sort out but one by one they were resolved.

SS already knows, SS feeds information to Medicare, nothing to do there. DMV has no interest.

Its been close to 2 years and down to just a few pieces of art that was in my moms collection. Buyers are out there it just takes a little time to resolve without conducting a fire sale!
clip651
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by clip651 »

Since there is a trust with the house in it, you may need to get a trust EIN and do a trust tax return. While the house is in the trust I think the rent may become trust income. You may need legal advice on handling the trust properly, how and when to have it deeded to the beniciary, etc.

Just speaking from my limited experience as a trustee, I’m not a lawyer, and I’m not in California. Obviously no one here has read the trust, and the details of the trust may matter.

Also as far as I understand it, the house is not part of the estate since it is in the trust.
Last edited by clip651 on Sat Feb 01, 2025 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tubes
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by Tubes »

Yes, we had to get an EIN for the trust. The trust had small income from interest and cap gains. Agree that trust is going to see income event for rent. If I were OP, I'd get solid advice from a professional in their state and not just Bogleheads. This is pretty simple as far as estates go, but there's always something, like proposition 13 that OP mentioned, and so on.

Speaking of specific states, in CA perhaps no will needs to be filed. Well, for my parent, we had to still file a will in IL even though everything was in trust. It was a very simple process and very simple pour over will, but I guess the world needs to know via an official notice, at least in that state.

That's another area you can get tripped up with on the internet: advice is not general in these matters, each state has their own laws.
neilpilot
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by neilpilot »

Sounds like you have most things covered. A few comments:

Item 3 - it's likely the account is joint , with ownership going to the survivor. Some banks don't use this format, and then the estate remains joint owner of the account (this isn't likely but possible).

Item 4 - does the single bank account specify a beneficiary on death? If not, it technically falls into the estate probate unless it was owned by her trust.

There will be 2 IRS returns to do for this years taxes (TY2025), one in her name prior to her death, and a 2nd for the estate.

Can't speak toward your state's requirement. In TN it's fairly simple (no state income tax).
clip651
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by clip651 »

Also home insurance may need to be updated to reflect current ownership, by the trust now and then later when your wife owns it outright. If something happens to the house you’ll want to be sure insurance is in order.
LikeNumbers
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by LikeNumbers »

Sorry about your loss. I was in a similar situation in 2024 when my mother passed away.
At a high level, you seem to have the large steps covers.
Below are a couple recommendations as you work through the process.

1. DO NOT shut down her banking for at least six months.
Down load a years worth of bank statements for potential future reference.
While some vendors bill relatively quickly, the govt and healthcare providers take much longer.
2. Don't trust the Funeral Home to notify the govt, sending a redundant USMAIL notice will not hurt,
send a copy of the death certificate - it will likely be scanned and sent back.
3. Try your best to notify all relevant people. Accept that you will likely miss someone.
Be prepared for someone in the future complaining they were not notified and their feelings were hurt.
4. If your mother had digital accounts, my mom did not, be sure to shut those down.
5. Allow continued USMAIL to continue delivery for at 6-12 months, after that point notify the US Postal Service to
stop delivery.
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Watty
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by Watty »

gotoparks wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 3:16 am Seems you got a handle on everything. Not sure what you are looking for. With not many assets you don't need probate. The funeral home will contact Social Security so check with them. Avoid email and call. You can get much more done that way. People are not good at understanding email in my experience. Sorry for your loss.
There was a thread recently where it came out that the funeral home will usually contact Social Security but that does not happen 100% of the time unless you ask them to so be sure to verify that Social Security has been notified. If she received any SS payments after her death that she should not have the automatic deposit may be reversed so leave that money in the account.

Have the funeral home order a few more official death certificates than you think you will need since that will be a lot easier than ordering more later.

You did not mention a car but if she did have a car do not let anyone drive it until the title has been changed. When we were settling my mom's estate the lawyer told us that. The problem was that her car insurance would not cover you driving the car since you did not have permission to drive it and your car insurance would not cover you either because you did not have permission to drive it.

If the property is something like an old family home which has sentimental value then keep an open mind about selling it when the current lease ends. There was a post a few years ago where someone had inherited their family home and it worked out well for them financially and while they had plenty of maintenance issues because it was an older home they never had a "tenant from hell". They still said that they regretted keeping the house as a rental because all their fond memories of having been raised in the house were replaced by the memories of the normal hassles of dealing with it as a rental property and even good renters are hard on property.

One of the reasons that I do not own rental property is that I do not want to be dealing with a rental property when I am older and possibly in assisted living. Even with a property management company you will still need to keep an eye on them and occasionally hire a different company. You likely helped her out with managing the rental property so it seemed to work OK for her but you may not have a kid who will be able to do that when you are as old as she was.
Last edited by Watty on Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
SuzBanyan
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by SuzBanyan »

Sorry for your loss.

You might find the following information from the LA County Assessor to be helpful(even if the property is in a different County, it is likely to be generally applicable): https://assessor.lacounty.gov/homeowner ... f-an-owner

Note that there is a 150 day deadline for filing the Change of Ownership Statement. There will be property tax reassessment, unless it qualifies for exclusion because it becomes the primary residence of a child of the deceased.

The actual ownership change is made using an Affidavit of Death of Trustee. The Sacramento Public Law library has a form: https://saclaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2 ... rustee.pdf. You may want to consult with a lawyer to make sure it is completed correctly. I am not your lawyer.
ee_guy
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by ee_guy »

GratuitousScrubs wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 1:26 am 1. One piece of real property, located in the state we reside in (a few counties over). No debt. The property is held in trust. My wife is the successor trustee and sole beneficiary of the trust. The property is currently rented out. Our intention is to maintain this arrangement indefinitely.
Since you are planning to hold on to the property indefinitely, it may be useful to have an appraisal to establish the value at time of death. If the property cost basis was stepped up, the appraisal would be the new cost basis when the property is sold in the far future.
clip651
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by clip651 »

clip651 wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 7:50 am Since there is a trust with the house in it, you may need to get a trust EIN and do a trust tax return. While the house is in the trust I think the rent may become trust income. You may need legal advice on handling the trust properly, how and when to have it deeded to the beniciary, etc.

Just speaking from my limited experience as a trustee, I’m not a lawyer, and I’m not in California. Obviously no one here has read the trust, and the details of the trust may matter.

Also as far as I understand it, the house is not part of the estate since it is in the trust.
I meant to add - you probably need to get proper advice on the rental income from the house that is in the trust soon. Depending on details of the trust tax return, I suspect this may impact you and your wife's 2024 and/or 2025 personal income taxes. Seriously consider getting some professional advice (lawyer and CPA) sooner than later, and holding off on filing taxes for you and your wife until you have some answers.
crre
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by crre »

if the house is owned by the trust, then is there a change in ownership to register? i thought that was the whole point of a trust.
clip651
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by clip651 »

crre wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 11:51 pm if the house is owned by the trust, then is there a change in ownership to register? i thought that was the whole point of a trust.
Point is, with the parent having passed away, OP needs legal and tax advice on whether to leave the house in the trust or not. And how to deal with it in the meanwhile.

Other point is, no one here, aside from OP has read the trust. We don't know what sort of trust it is, or anything about the terms.
SuzBanyan
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by SuzBanyan »

crre wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 11:51 pm if the house is owned by the trust, then is there a change in ownership to register? i thought that was the whole point of a trust.
Whenever there is a change of Trustee, due to death, disability or resignation, notice is likely to be required. Depending on the nature of the change in Trustee, there may be no financial or tax impact. That was the case when my grandmother resigned as Trustee of her Grantor Revocable Trust and my mother became the successor Trustee. When my grandmother later passed, her Trust became irrevocable under the terms of the Trust, and further notices and actions were required even though the Trustee did not change.

As Clip has already noted, no one knows what the Trust here says and legal and tax advice may be needed.
stockholm28
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by stockholm28 »

Regarding item 1, contact the real estate dept of your local government to find out what you need to do to report a change of Trustee. In my county (different state), there was a simple form that needed to be submitted to change the trustee in the property records. I recall having to provide a notorized form, copy of the trust page naming the successor trustee, and death certificate to the county. I also think there was an administrative fee for this update.

The funeral home is required by law to notify social security. I’d monitor her bank statement this month to confirm that there is no social security deposit in the month of February. Social security will also reclaim any payments made after the date of death.
snic
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by snic »

SuzBanyan wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:17 am Sorry for your loss.

You might find the following information from the LA County Assessor to be helpful(even if the property is in a different County, it is likely to be generally applicable): https://assessor.lacounty.gov/homeowner ... f-an-owner

Note that there is a 150 day deadline for filing the Change of Ownership Statement. There will be property tax reassessment, unless it qualifies for exclusion because it becomes the primary residence of a child of the deceased.

The actual ownership change is made using an Affidavit of Death of Trustee. The Sacramento Public Law library has a form: https://saclaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2 ... rustee.pdf. You may want to consult with a lawyer to make sure it is completed correctly. I am not your lawyer.
As I understand it, the OP (well, technically his wife, who is the child of the deceased) will likely not qualify for the property tax increase exclusion if they move into the house. That's because the house is being used as a rental property. If the mom had been living in the house when she died, then one of her children would qualify for the exclusion if they moved in within 1 year:

"Under Proposition 19, a child or children may keep the lower property tax base of the parent(s) ONLY if the property is the principal residence of the parent(s) and the child or children make it their principal residence within one year." https://assessor.lacounty.gov/homeowners/proposition-19
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jackholloway
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by jackholloway »

Sorry for your loss.

Do check her state's notification requirements. When my sister probated my mother's estate, she thought she had the whole thing landed within a year, then found out that she had to publish a notice in a local newspaper to give creditors a chance to file. This extended the estate lifetime for something like six more months. It was not a big deal, but she had really wanted to land it early.
donall
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by donall »

As others have mentioned, get an appraisal and a good CPA for the rental property. In our case, we sold the inherited rental building and the CPA did an excellent job preparing two years of returns. Numerous deductions lowered our income. With an adjusted basis at current market levels, you may want to explore selling the building and pay no capital gains.
SuzBanyan
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by SuzBanyan »

snic wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 3:28 pm
SuzBanyan wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:17 am Sorry for your loss.

You might find the following information from the LA County Assessor to be helpful(even if the property is in a different County, it is likely to be generally applicable): https://assessor.lacounty.gov/homeowner ... f-an-owner

Note that there is a 150 day deadline for filing the Change of Ownership Statement. There will be property tax reassessment, unless it qualifies for exclusion because it becomes the primary residence of a child of the deceased.

The actual ownership change is made using an Affidavit of Death of Trustee. The Sacramento Public Law library has a form: https://saclaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2 ... rustee.pdf. You may want to consult with a lawyer to make sure it is completed correctly. I am not your lawyer.
As I understand it, the OP (well, technically his wife, who is the child of the deceased) will likely not qualify for the property tax increase exclusion if they move into the house. That's because the house is being used as a rental property. If the mom had been living in the house when she died, then one of her children would qualify for the exclusion if they moved in within 1 year:

"Under Proposition 19, a child or children may keep the lower property tax base of the parent(s) ONLY if the property is the principal residence of the parent(s) and the child or children make it their principal residence within one year." https://assessor.lacounty.gov/homeowners/proposition-19
You are correct. In the OPs case, it will be reassessed. I was trying to add more generic info to my prior post (for some children who inherit their parent’s personal residence, it may not be reassessed), which just ended up making it incorrect for the OP.
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zincTwo
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by zincTwo »

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GratuitousScrubs
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by GratuitousScrubs »

Thank you everyone, lots of excellent advice here. I'll read the Mike Piper book and continue gathering information from reliable sources and triangulating/verifying. I contacted the local estate attorney who drafted her trust. They want a $3k flat fee just to do anything, which seems to consist of:
1. explain the trust to my wife (I think ChatGPT could do as good a job converting it to layman's english and answering questions...)
2. prepare an affidavit of death
3. Obtain an EIN
4. Prepare a certification of trust.

Everything else costs more.

That seems like a lot to pay for receiving very little. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like to just get my teeth into this a little on my own before I decide that something needs attorney's eyes, and then hopefully retain those services at a reasonable fee for doing what's needed. It's not even about the money tbh, it's more like I know that if I go back to this attorney it is going to require engaging with their entire "process", which I am certain is going to be a stressor for my wife during this stage of her grieving. It's a lot better if I can just say to her, "we have to run over to the UPS store and get this form notarized, and then we'll get lunch next door."

Re: taxes, she passed in the year 2025, so I feel like we'll have some time to get organized with respect to attributing income to the trust, etc. without having to worry about our 2024 taxes (which we file closer to October anyway....).
clip651
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by clip651 »

GratuitousScrubs wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 2:21 am Thank you everyone, lots of excellent advice here. I'll read the Mike Piper book and continue gathering information from reliable sources and triangulating/verifying. I contacted the local estate attorney who drafted her trust. They want a $3k flat fee just to do anything, which seems to consist of:
1. explain the trust to my wife (I think ChatGPT could do as good a job converting it to layman's english and answering questions...)
2. prepare an affidavit of death
3. Obtain an EIN
4. Prepare a certification of trust.

Everything else costs more.

That seems like a lot to pay for receiving very little. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like to just get my teeth into this a little on my own before I decide that something needs attorney's eyes, and then hopefully retain those services at a reasonable fee for doing what's needed. It's not even about the money tbh, it's more like I know that if I go back to this attorney it is going to require engaging with their entire "process", which I am certain is going to be a stressor for my wife during this stage of her grieving. It's a lot better if I can just say to her, "we have to run over to the UPS store and get this form notarized, and then we'll get lunch next door."

Re: taxes, she passed in the year 2025, so I feel like we'll have some time to get organized with respect to attributing income to the trust, etc. without having to worry about our 2024 taxes (which we file closer to October anyway....).
Presumably there is some advice (that you may need) wrapped into that fee and those services. Regarding the taxes, you'll need to figure out how to handle the incoming rental income - I don't think it can just continue going into her account (the one with no beneficiary that you'll need to deal with), and it probably doesn't belong in any of your and your wife's personal accounts either. But I'm not an expert.

Since there is a house and rental income here, and from the sounds of it people that have no previous experience as trustees, I still think professional advice (lawyer and likely CPA) would be a good. Of course, that's up to you. Bogleheads site does not provide legal advice (aside from the advice that hey, this really looks like a situation where professional advice may be needed).

FWIW, in my own limited experience as trustee, the legal help mostly relieves stress. Some of it adds stress (expenses, meetings, emails), but I find having someone to guide me, someone to answer my questions, etc, a lot less stressful than trying to research everything on my own and then wondering if I'm missing or misinterpreting something about the process.

best wishes and sorry for your loss,
cj
bsteiner
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by bsteiner »

GratuitousScrubs wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 2:21 am Thank you everyone, lots of excellent advice here. I'll read the Mike Piper book and continue gathering information from reliable sources and triangulating/verifying. I contacted the local estate attorney who drafted her trust. They want a $3k flat fee just to do anything, which seems to consist of:
1. explain the trust to my wife (I think ChatGPT could do as good a job converting it to layman's english and answering questions...)
2. prepare an affidavit of death
3. Obtain an EIN
4. Prepare a certification of trust.

Everything else costs more.

That seems like a lot to pay for receiving very little. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like to just get my teeth into this a little on my own before I decide that something needs attorney's eyes, and then hopefully retain those services at a reasonable fee for doing what's needed. It's not even about the money tbh, it's more like I know that if I go back to this attorney it is going to require engaging with their entire "process", which I am certain is going to be a stressor for my wife during this stage of her grieving. It's a lot better if I can just say to her, "we have to run over to the UPS store and get this form notarized, and then we'll get lunch next door."

Re: taxes, she passed in the year 2025, so I feel like we'll have some time to get organized with respect to attributing income to the trust, etc. without having to worry about our 2024 taxes (which we file closer to October anyway....).
Everyone says that the estate they're administering is simple. Most estate are simple except for the things that aren't.

The additional fees make sense. When you go to the dentist, you pay $x for the dentist to check your mouth and for an assistant to clean your teeth. But if there are any cavities, there will be an additional fee to fill them. In this case, $3,000 may cover the initial meeting and a review of the trust and the issues to determine what needs to be done.

The lawyer will have to determine whether the real estate is included in her estate for estate tax purposes. If so, there will be a new basis. The lawyer will then have to recommend how best to value it.

You may want to have the law firm obtain or assign an EIN to the trust.

If the trust was revocable, the executor and the trustee (or the trustee alone if there's no executor) may elect under Section 645 to treat the trust as part of the estate (or as the estate if there's otherwise no estate) for income tax purposes. Depending on the situation, such an election may be beneficial or detrimental. The lawyer will have to recommend whether to make that election, and if so, tell the accountant.

If you make a Section 645 election, you may want the lawyer to coordinate with the accountant as to the choice of a taxable year.

Item 3 --- was the joint account intended to pass to you upon her death, or was it intended to be a convenience account so that it would be an asset of her estate? If your wife claims that it's hers, will that be acceptable to her sibling?

This isn't a $3,000 project.
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GratuitousScrubs
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by GratuitousScrubs »

The house is really the only asset in the estate. Everything else can literally go unclaimed and no one would care. She intended for the joint account to just become mine. She was in a negative cash flow situation for the last decade, with some rents coming in, my wife and I covering all of her expenses (she lived with us), and her inflowing money just being given right back to us “to reimburse expenses,” but really just to not have piles of money sitting around in an account for an elderly person highly susceptible to a phishing scheme.

I’ll definitely engage professional help at a certain point. Right now, I’m trying to develop an understanding of what needs to be done so that I can use the help properly. It’s been my experience in life that lots of professionals say they can do this or that, and some do it well while others do it badly. This is true across all walks of life. I’m a doctor, and I see a lot of doctoring going on that makes me wince with anguish on behalf of the patient…
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Re: Parent passed away -- help with next steps

Post by LadyGeek »

Sediment6800 has a question which I've moved to a new thread. See: Irrevocable living trust - Have house, does it need an EIN?

(Thanks to the member who reported the post and explained what's wrong.)
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