Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

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gnr
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Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 11:55 pm

Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by gnr »

Hello,

My mother, who was living in an assisted living/memory care facility for the past three years, passed away in mid Dec 2024. I am in charge of handling her estate. I am hoping to get some advice on my approach and also to answer some questions that I am unsure about at this point. If any of you are knowledgeable on the subject, I would appreciate any input you have.

Here are the facts of the situation:

* DPOA – I was appointed as DPOA for her but that obviously ends at death.

* Will - Her will appoints me as her personal representative to pay her final bills which would include selling any property she has in which to pay those bills. The will doesn’t specifically state that I am to be the executor, although the definition of executor and personal representative seem to overlap in my mind. I’m a bit foggy if the title personal representative entitles me to actually distribute her remaining assets as spelled out in the will. The will states that my sister and I are to divide her assets equally other than we each are to receive one specific heirloom item. This will was created in 1994 and has never had any changes.

* House & Personal Assets – I sold my mother’s house and donated/discarded/sold most of her belongings three years ago when she moved into the facility. She only had a studio apartment with minimal possessions for the past few years so there isn’t much value on anything she had left. Most of it will be donated.

* Financial Assets –
- She had one small checking account at a local bank with around 1K balance used to pay for personal needs. This account lists her, my sister and myself as joint owners.

- She also had 1 money market account and a few CDs at an online bank. These accounts have my mother and I as joint owners and my sister as a beneficiary. About a week after her death (but before the end of 2024), one of the CDs matured and I had the funds deposited into her money market account. The total balance for all of these accounts is around 200K.

* Outstanding Liabilities – I should have a few medical bills arriving soon that will total in the 2-3K range for two hospital visits just prior to her death. Everything else that I am aware of has been taken care of. (finalize rent, Social Security, credit card)

* Actions I have taken so far – I took the death certificate to the local bank in mid Jan 2025 and they flagged her as deceased but left her name on the account. They said I became the primary at the time the death certificate was presented to them. I also sent the death certificate to her online bank along with a letter requesting that they remove her name from the money market account. I also requested that they close the remaining CDs and credit the money market account including all accrued interest. There should be no penalty on the CDs since the primary account holder died. (This request is still pending.) Once they do that, I will move the money to the local bank and close the money market account at the online bank. At that point, I plan to distribute the bulk of the funds to my sister and I as an initial disbursement leaving enough to pay the final bills along with some padding just in case. Once I am satisfied all bills have been taken care of, I will make the final disbursement to both of us and then close the checking account.

* Concerns/Questions/Comments

- The reasoning for moving the funds to the local bank and then disbursing the bulk of it fairly quickly to my sister and I are as follows: 1) I thought that it might eliminate any question on the “executor” concern noted above since she would be an account owner on the checking account at the local bank. Also, I wouldn’t want it to look like I was gifting the funds to her from the online account since I would be the primary account holder and she was only a beneficiary. I am not sure if all that is necessary, but this seems like a logical solution given the circumstances. 2) I don’t want to magnify the issue of me getting taxed on the interest that both my sister and I will be splitting. If the funds sit in the online bank account, I am getting taxed and then I would have to adjust her disbursement accordingly which I would prefer not to have to do. Also, the local bank has low rates so as soon as the money is there, I want to disburse it so that we both can move it elsewhere and get better rates.

- The banks are telling me they cannot back-date the interest to the date of her death (mid Dec 2024). The local bank says they can only use the date in which I submitted the death certificate which was mid-Jan 2025. The online bank says they can only go back to 1/2/2025 but in my letter of instruction, I have asked if they can at least date it to the end of 2024 so that she won’t have a 1099 for 2025. I am concerned about filing her final tax return for 2024 and then having to go back and do an amended return for 2024 and/or file a 2025 return for any interest that gets reported to her in 2025. (I’m also not sure how the IRS views income reported in the year after death.) I had thought that if this happens, I could just add the 2025 interest to my return with an explanation note attached (if possible since I file federal electronically). I am not as concerned with me paying the extra tax, but I’d just rather do it in a way that makes the IRS happy.

- Since all of her financial assets are on accounts as joint owners, does the will need to be filed with the county probate office? (Missouri) There will not be any issues with regards to my sister questioning the disbursement amount. I have been transparent with everything and there will be no arguments as we both have 100% trust in each other. (Yes, I know money changes people but this is not an issue with us.) Technically, since my sister is not an owner of the accounts at the online bank, I am not sure legally if the will verbiage would even apply to those funds. Regardless, I know my mother’s intent of a 50/50 disbursement to us both and that is what I will do. (By the way, I have called the county probate office a few times seeking info on the process and what they feel I need to do, but I have only received voice mail thus far with no call backs. Even if I speak to them, I am expecting them to just tell me to go see an attorney.)

- Even though my mother noted in the will that everything is to be divided equally with my sister and I, it is possible that I might want to leave some of my half to my daughter and 2 grandchildren. My assumption is that would be classified as gifting even though the funds were technically coming from her grandmother. Is that correct or is there a way that can be classified as just a disbursement of the estate?


My apologies for such a lengthy email and I appreciate you taking the time to read it. If you can share any knowledge you have, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you!
DIFAR31
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by DIFAR31 »

A Personal Representative is the same thing as an Executor. The terminology can vary by state.

Condolences on your loss.
Geologist
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Re: Seeking assistance on handling an estate

Post by Geologist »

Many states have a small estate process and I think you would do well to go to the county courthouse of the county where your mother resided to inquire about it. There are some actions you can't legally take without being officially appointed as the estate's representative and almost surely a clerk at the courthouse can explain how it is done. (For example, I'm not sure you can legally donate those personal items that you mention without legal authority.)
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CAsage
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by CAsage »

No one on this planet is tracking your mother's personal possessions - unless you think some relative will emerge to claim anything, which seems unlikely since you and Sis are sole heirs. Everything else appears to be joint tenant, so the money is legally yours. IMO close the accounts, pay the bills, have a lovely dinner with your sister to commemorate your mother's memory, split the balance and move on. You can also file her final 2024 tax return and sign it as "personal representative" without going to court. That's what I did with my Mom; kept the will in my pocket but never needed it.
Also, you won't need to file a tax return if there is any small income in 2025 for your Mom because it would be below the minimum, but I would recommend you claim it on your tax return (with a note). Good reason to liquidate ASAP or put it in a non-interest checking account.
If you choose to gift some to your daughter/grandchildren, just give it to them. It isn't different because it comes from an estate (in terms of any tax benefits, or what were you thinking?). Gift limit is $19K per person in 2025.
Salvia Clevelandii "Winifred Gilman" my favorite. YMMV; not a professional advisor.
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gnr
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by gnr »

DIFAR31 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 5:46 pm A Personal Representative is the same thing as an Executor. The terminology can vary by state.

Condolences on your loss.
I had initially read/heard some things where the two titles were slightly different. After your response and some additional digging, I am finding more things that confirm they are the same as you indicated. Thank you for your help and for the condolences.

Geologist wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 5:47 pm Many states have a small estate process and I think you would do well to go to the county courthouse of the county where your mother resided to inquire about it. There are some actions you can't legally take without being officially appointed as the estate's representative and almost surely a clerk at the courthouse can explain how it is done. (For example, I'm not sure you can legally donate those personal items that you mention without legal authority.)
I know Missouri does have a small estate affidavit form/process. In my case, I didn't see how it would really be necessary. I have been managing her finances for the past 3-4 years and she does hot have any outstanding debts. As I mentioned, she will have a few hospital bills coming that will be less than 3K total. Since all of her money was in a joint account that I have control of and as long as I pay those bills, I don't see any other issues. I wouldn't think the medical billing folks really care who pays the bills as long as they are paid.

I will keep trying to speak with the County probate office to get further clarification as you mentioned. I'm just skeptical on what info they will provide because their voice mail message even indicates they can't offer legal advice or something along those lines. (CYA) As far as donating the items, there just isn't anything of value. The will says my sister and I will split her property so I don't see the difference if we receive it as ours and then donate it or donate it prior to our transfer of ownership. Hopefully the probate office can shed some light on what other limitations I might have as you mentioned in case there is something I hadn't thought of that needs to happen. (I'm 99% sure there isn't anything.)

Anyway, thank you so much for your reply!

CAsage wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 6:06 pm No one on this planet is tracking your mother's personal possessions - unless you think some relative will emerge to claim anything, which seems unlikely since you and Sis are sole heirs. Everything else appears to be joint tenant, so the money is legally yours. IMO close the accounts, pay the bills, have a lovely dinner with your sister to commemorate your mother's memory, split the balance and move on. You can also file her final 2024 tax return and sign it as "personal representative" without going to court. That's what I did with my Mom; kept the will in my pocket but never needed it.
Also, you won't need to file a tax return if there is any small income in 2025 for your Mom because it would be below the minimum, but I would recommend you claim it on your tax return (with a note). Good reason to liquidate ASAP or put it in a non-interest checking account.
If you choose to gift some to your daughter/grandchildren, just give it to them. It isn't different because it comes from an estate (in terms of any tax benefits, or what were you thinking?). Gift limit is $19K per person in 2025.
There really is no other family that will emerge. She was 95 and the last of her siblings. I like your suggestion to keep it simple which is basically what my plan was until my brain started over-thinking things.

That is good to know about filing the tax return without needing a court document. As far as income reported under her social security number, she does have accrued interest on the CDs that won't pay until 2025 so I am still waiting on the online bank to determine how they are going to handle that. As of right now, there's around 2k total in accrued interest. They have already produced the 2024 1099 and they acted like they couldn't do a "corrected" 1099 as it wasn't actually a mistake. I guess if they report under her social for 2025, I will add it to mine (with note) as discussed to be safe. Either way, I could then treat that extra tax as an expense before the final split on the money with my sister. (I may not even mess with that as the amount won't be huge.)

As far as the gifting, I just didn't want to have to research the process, fill out more tax forms, set of any IRS flags, etc. The amount I would gift per person would be less than 19K each so I don't think there would be any tax implications. (I am not really familiar with gifting as you can tell.)

Anyway, I appreciate all of your help and information!
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Having been involved in several estates in the last few years, I'm going to jump in.

Personal Representative in my state, Massachusetts is what other states call Executor. Here, there is no Executor. That person is called Personal Representative.

The will appointing you as Personal Representative is a good start. Here, the probate court appoints the Personal Representative. I could go and ask to become your mom's personal representative and get it. You should consult an estate attorney.

You should have already applied for an EIN for your mom's estate.

With the EIN and Personal Representative appointment letter from the court, you can then open an estate account.

Take the above documents along with your ID to each bank with an account. Have each write a check to the estate account.

Keep track of every payment for your mother's estate. This will be submitted to the court to close probate. This includes distributions to you and your sister.

A tax return will need to be filed for 2024 and 2025.

Check with your estate attorney. In my state, claims can be made against the estate up to 1 year from public announcement of your mom's death. We're in that now with a relative who passed last May. The money is all in the estate account and will stay there until the 1 year point to be safe. We made small distributions as an heir was given the deceased car so other heirs were given fair market value of the car in cash.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
Topic Author
gnr
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by gnr »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 9:05 pm Having been involved in several estates in the last few years, I'm going to jump in.

Personal Representative in my state, Massachusetts is what other states call Executor. Here, there is no Executor. That person is called Personal Representative.

The will appointing you as Personal Representative is a good start. Here, the probate court appoints the Personal Representative. I could go and ask to become your mom's personal representative and get it. You should consult an estate attorney.

You should have already applied for an EIN for your mom's estate.

With the EIN and Personal Representative appointment letter from the court, you can then open an estate account.

Take the above documents along with your ID to each bank with an account. Have each write a check to the estate account.

Keep track of every payment for your mother's estate. This will be submitted to the court to close probate. This includes distributions to you and your sister.

A tax return will need to be filed for 2024 and 2025.

Check with your estate attorney. In my state, claims can be made against the estate up to 1 year from public announcement of your mom's death. We're in that now with a relative who passed last May. The money is all in the estate account and will stay there until the 1 year point to be safe. We made small distributions as an heir was given the deceased car so other heirs were given fair market value of the car in cash.
Thanks for your reply.

I have not applied for an EIN at this time. The online bank hasn't finished making the account changes so I am not sure how they are going to treat the accrued interest with regards to when they apply the interest to my social security number. If they apply all of it to my social for 2025, then my mother wouldn't have any 2025 interest at all. They told me verbally, that they can only go back to 01/02/2025 so I guess she could have a minimal amount of interest for 2025. If that happens, I wouldn't file a 2025 return for her and instead just add it to my return with a note of explanation. As mentioned, I am a joint owner on all of her bank accounts and she doesn't have much of value in personal assets, so I don't think any of it needs to go through probate. I'm still trying to learn what I can without going to an attorney if possible. Can you elaborate why you think I might need an EIN even though I am a joint owner on all of her bank accounts?

I am 99.9% sure that there won't be any other bills besides the few medical bills that I am expecting. I have been handling her bills for the past 4 years and there should not be any surprises.

Thank you again for your insight.
bsteiner
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by bsteiner »

gnr wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2025 11:12 am ...
I have not applied for an EIN at this time. The online bank hasn't finished making the account changes so I am not sure how they are going to treat the accrued interest with regards to when they apply the interest to my social security number. If they apply all of it to my social for 2025, then my mother wouldn't have any 2025 interest at all. They told me verbally, that they can only go back to 01/02/2025 so I guess she could have a minimal amount of interest for 2025. If that happens, I wouldn't file a 2025 return for her and instead just add it to my return with a note of explanation. As mentioned, I am a joint owner on all of her bank accounts and she doesn't have much of value in personal assets, so I don't think any of it needs to go through probate. I'm still trying to learn what I can without going to an attorney if possible. Can you elaborate why you think I might need an EIN even though I am a joint owner on all of her bank accounts?
...
The Forms 1099 for the year of death (2024), and in this case probably also for 2025. It's not possible to get the Will probated and open an estate account on the same day that someone dies.

Your mother's final tax year ended when she died. You should report her income from January 1 through her date of death on her 2024 return. Any income received after her date of death would go on the estate's fiduciary income tax return (or in this case since her accounts were joint with you, on your income tax returns). Since she was not alive for any portion of 2025, you can't file a 2025 return for her.
twh
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by twh »

gnr wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2025 11:12 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 9:05 pm Having been involved in several estates in the last few years, I'm going to jump in.

Personal Representative in my state, Massachusetts is what other states call Executor. Here, there is no Executor. That person is called Personal Representative.

The will appointing you as Personal Representative is a good start. Here, the probate court appoints the Personal Representative. I could go and ask to become your mom's personal representative and get it. You should consult an estate attorney.

You should have already applied for an EIN for your mom's estate.

With the EIN and Personal Representative appointment letter from the court, you can then open an estate account.

Take the above documents along with your ID to each bank with an account. Have each write a check to the estate account.

Keep track of every payment for your mother's estate. This will be submitted to the court to close probate. This includes distributions to you and your sister.

A tax return will need to be filed for 2024 and 2025.

Check with your estate attorney. In my state, claims can be made against the estate up to 1 year from public announcement of your mom's death. We're in that now with a relative who passed last May. The money is all in the estate account and will stay there until the 1 year point to be safe. We made small distributions as an heir was given the deceased car so other heirs were given fair market value of the car in cash.
Thanks for your reply.

I have not applied for an EIN at this time. The online bank hasn't finished making the account changes so I am not sure how they are going to treat the accrued interest with regards to when they apply the interest to my social security number. If they apply all of it to my social for 2025, then my mother wouldn't have any 2025 interest at all. They told me verbally, that they can only go back to 01/02/2025 so I guess she could have a minimal amount of interest for 2025. If that happens, I wouldn't file a 2025 return for her and instead just add it to my return with a note of explanation. As mentioned, I am a joint owner on all of her bank accounts and she doesn't have much of value in personal assets, so I don't think any of it needs to go through probate. I'm still trying to learn what I can without going to an attorney if possible. Can you elaborate why you think I might need an EIN even though I am a joint owner on all of her bank accounts?

I am 99.9% sure that there won't be any other bills besides the few medical bills that I am expecting. I have been handling her bills for the past 4 years and there should not be any surprises.

Thank you again for your insight.
From what you have written, I don't see why you would need an EIN or an estate or probate or any of those things. I also think the interest and 1099's you worry about aren't going to amount to much at all, so let them just come when they come. If you want to reserve some money from you sister to even it all out when those do come you can do that and distribute the last portion in a year.

You were the co-owner of the account that had the bulk of the money and you are now the sole owner. Give your sister her cut when all the final expenses and bills are paid. If your state has a tax on small inheritances, like some do, you need to make sure this is followed, PA for example.

I would not remove your mother's name from the checking account. You could get some small money refund check made out to her and it's a lot easier to just photo deposit that rather than open an estate and have the check made out to the estate. Now, if you get a check for $200K, by all means do it by the book. This was recommenced to me by a bank employee at a small branch at my MIL's assisted living place.

Make this easy on yourself.
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JazzTime
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by JazzTime »

Bear in mind that the deceased can receive funds - e.g., a refund - several years after death.

I handled my elderly neighbor's small estate. I learned two years after her death that the state had funds owed her. After going through some rigmarole, I learned the small amount was a refund of her co-payment for an ER visit several years prior to her death. How they couldn't find her and send a check while alive is a mystery to me. She lived in the same place for over 60 years before moving to assisted living.
The difficulty with jazz is there are too many notes. (Borrowed from Emperor's critique in Amadeus)
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quantAndHold
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by quantAndHold »

The Nolo Press book is an easy read and is really helpful. https://store.nolo.com/products/the-exe ... -exec.html

As far as the interest accrued after her death, you file a 2024 tax return listing her as deceased, which covers everything up to the date of her death. For anything after her death that the bank has paid to her instead of to the estate, you send a 1099 from her to the estate. This is where the EIN comes in. If the estate has more than $600 in income, you’ll file taxes (form 1041) for the estate. It’s been a decade since I had to do this, so my memory of the tax part is kinda fuzzy, and the $600 amount may be wrong, but that’s the gist of it. None of it is very hard, once you understand that any money she makes after death belongs to the estate instead of belonging to her.

You’d need to open probate if there are assets that can’t be dealt with without opening probate. It doesn’t sound like this is the case, but we ended up having to open probate for my mom because a car was in her name, and when my brother inherited it, he couldn’t get it registered without the probate letter. So, if you need to, you can do it then.

I would assume that the gift to your daughter and grandkids is simply a gift from you. There’s no gift tax for this level of gifting, but depending on the amount, you might have to file an extra form when you file your taxes next year.
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quantAndHold
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by quantAndHold »

gnr wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2025 11:12 am I am 99.9% sure that there won't be any other bills besides the few medical bills that I am expecting. I have been handling her bills for the past 4 years and there should not be any surprises.
Dad died in Colorado, so I followed the Colorado probate procedures. One of the things I had to do was put an ad in the local paper looking for people with claims on the estate. Another thing I had to do was send a letter to all known claimants, which in his case were all medical providers, telling them where to send bills. This gave them a deadline, and I could legally refuse to pay any bills that came in after the (I thought pretty generous) deadline. I had been paying his bills for a couple of years and had been keeping a spreadsheet, and thought I know about everything, but medical bills kept trickling in for months. Sending the letters turned out to be useful, because once the deadline passed, I could distribute the remainder without worrying about clawing back money to pay more bills. And yes, I did get more bills after the deadline. I had my wife call them to tell them they weren’t getting their money, because she’s better at being snarky than I am.
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gnr
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by gnr »

bsteiner wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2025 11:27 am
gnr wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2025 11:12 am ...
I have not applied for an EIN at this time. The online bank hasn't finished making the account changes so I am not sure how they are going to treat the accrued interest with regards to when they apply the interest to my social security number. If they apply all of it to my social for 2025, then my mother wouldn't have any 2025 interest at all. They told me verbally, that they can only go back to 01/02/2025 so I guess she could have a minimal amount of interest for 2025. If that happens, I wouldn't file a 2025 return for her and instead just add it to my return with a note of explanation. As mentioned, I am a joint owner on all of her bank accounts and she doesn't have much of value in personal assets, so I don't think any of it needs to go through probate. I'm still trying to learn what I can without going to an attorney if possible. Can you elaborate why you think I might need an EIN even though I am a joint owner on all of her bank accounts?
...
The Forms 1099 for the year of death (2024), and in this case probably also for 2025. It's not possible to get the Will probated and open an estate account on the same day that someone dies.

Your mother's final tax year ended when she died. You should report her income from January 1 through her date of death on her 2024 return. Any income received after her date of death would go on the estate's fiduciary income tax return (or in this case since her accounts were joint with you, on your income tax returns). Since she was not alive for any portion of 2025, you can't file a 2025 return for her.
Thank you for your input. In my particular situation with me being joint on all of my mother's accounts and without any family conflict or likelihood of any unexpected bills popping up, I think I will be ok without opening an estate account. Just as an extra precaution, I will probably just have the bank issue cashiers checks for the distributions rather than me writing them as personal checks. That may not be necessary, but it feels like a better way to do it since it would not be coming from an actual estate account.

Yes, I will either report her 2025 income on my return or perhaps not do anything at all with the 1099 depending upon how the bank handles the interest and how much it ends up being.
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gnr
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by gnr »

twh wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 12:06 pm
gnr wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2025 11:12 am

Thanks for your reply.

I have not applied for an EIN at this time. The online bank hasn't finished making the account changes so I am not sure how they are going to treat the accrued interest with regards to when they apply the interest to my social security number. If they apply all of it to my social for 2025, then my mother wouldn't have any 2025 interest at all. They told me verbally, that they can only go back to 01/02/2025 so I guess she could have a minimal amount of interest for 2025. If that happens, I wouldn't file a 2025 return for her and instead just add it to my return with a note of explanation. As mentioned, I am a joint owner on all of her bank accounts and she doesn't have much of value in personal assets, so I don't think any of it needs to go through probate. I'm still trying to learn what I can without going to an attorney if possible. Can you elaborate why you think I might need an EIN even though I am a joint owner on all of her bank accounts?

I am 99.9% sure that there won't be any other bills besides the few medical bills that I am expecting. I have been handling her bills for the past 4 years and there should not be any surprises.

Thank you again for your insight.
From what you have written, I don't see why you would need an EIN or an estate or probate or any of those things. I also think the interest and 1099's you worry about aren't going to amount to much at all, so let them just come when they come. If you want to reserve some money from you sister to even it all out when those do come you can do that and distribute the last portion in a year.

You were the co-owner of the account that had the bulk of the money and you are now the sole owner. Give your sister her cut when all the final expenses and bills are paid. If your state has a tax on small inheritances, like some do, you need to make sure this is followed, PA for example.

I would not remove your mother's name from the checking account. You could get some small money refund check made out to her and it's a lot easier to just photo deposit that rather than open an estate and have the check made out to the estate. Now, if you get a check for $200K, by all means do it by the book. This was recommenced to me by a bank employee at a small branch at my MIL's assisted living place.

Make this easy on yourself.
Thank you for your reply. The more I look into this, the more I am leaning towards doing it the simplest way as you mentioned, especially given my particular circumstances. I have a tendency to over-think things and make them harder than they need to be.

There isn't an inheritance tax in my state or the one where my sister lives so we are good there.

I agree, I will not be removing my mother's name from the small checking account at the local bank for the reasons you mentioned. The local bank gave me the same advice when I presented the death certificate. (They flagged her as deceased but her name remains on the account.) The only small possibility of any money coming it at a later time that I can think of would be any life insurance policies that she had that I didn't know about. I have submitted a policy search request using the NAIC policy locator tool, but I am pretty confident there won't be anything. My mother was pretty detailed and there wasn't anything in any of her records to indicate she had policy.

Thanks again for your help!
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gnr
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by gnr »

JazzTime wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 1:32 pm Bear in mind that the deceased can receive funds - e.g., a refund - several years after death.

I handled my elderly neighbor's small estate. I learned two years after her death that the state had funds owed her. After going through some rigmarole, I learned the small amount was a refund of her co-payment for an ER visit several years prior to her death. How they couldn't find her and send a check while alive is a mystery to me. She lived in the same place for over 60 years before moving to assisted living.
Yes, I am aware that there could potentially be funds showing up. Having said that, I have managed my mother's funds for the past several years and am pretty confident there won't be anything other than a possible life insurance policy (likely something very small) that she could have taken out a long time ago and forgot about. I have submitted a search request with the NAIC to see if it finds anything, but I am doubtful.

I have used the state unclaimed property web site many times (mostly for an employer) and it always amazes me the things that pop up. It does look like these companies don't always try very hard to find the owners.

Thanks for the reply!
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by gnr »

quantAndHold wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 2:11 pm The Nolo Press book is an easy read and is really helpful. https://store.nolo.com/products/the-exe ... -exec.html

As far as the interest accrued after her death, you file a 2024 tax return listing her as deceased, which covers everything up to the date of her death. For anything after her death that the bank has paid to her instead of to the estate, you send a 1099 from her to the estate. This is where the EIN comes in. If the estate has more than $600 in income, you’ll file taxes (form 1041) for the estate. It’s been a decade since I had to do this, so my memory of the tax part is kinda fuzzy, and the $600 amount may be wrong, but that’s the gist of it. None of it is very hard, once you understand that any money she makes after death belongs to the estate instead of belonging to her.

You’d need to open probate if there are assets that can’t be dealt with without opening probate. It doesn’t sound like this is the case, but we ended up having to open probate for my mom because a car was in her name, and when my brother inherited it, he couldn’t get it registered without the probate letter. So, if you need to, you can do it then.

I would assume that the gift to your daughter and grandkids is simply a gift from you. There’s no gift tax for this level of gifting, but depending on the amount, you might have to file an extra form when you file your taxes next year.
In my particular situation with me being joint on all of her accounts, I don't think I will be needing an EIN or estate account. Since I became primary account holder on her accounts after her death, I believe I will either just report any 2025 income on my return (as others in this post have mentioned) or possibly not do anything with it if the amount is small. I hope to hear back from the online bank soon as to what they can do with the interest.

There really are no assets that need to go through the probate process and my sister and I both agree on everything so we should be good. It's a shame that everything in this life (and even after death) have to be so complicated.

I have not yet decided on the gift yet for my daughter and grandkids. The amount would likely be under the max per person anyway so I shouldn't need to worry about the form.

I appreciate your feedback!
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by gnr »

quantAndHold wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 2:29 pm
gnr wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2025 11:12 am I am 99.9% sure that there won't be any other bills besides the few medical bills that I am expecting. I have been handling her bills for the past 4 years and there should not be any surprises.
Dad died in Colorado, so I followed the Colorado probate procedures. One of the things I had to do was put an ad in the local paper looking for people with claims on the estate. Another thing I had to do was send a letter to all known claimants, which in his case were all medical providers, telling them where to send bills. This gave them a deadline, and I could legally refuse to pay any bills that came in after the (I thought pretty generous) deadline. I had been paying his bills for a couple of years and had been keeping a spreadsheet, and thought I know about everything, but medical bills kept trickling in for months. Sending the letters turned out to be useful, because once the deadline passed, I could distribute the remainder without worrying about clawing back money to pay more bills. And yes, I did get more bills after the deadline. I had my wife call them to tell them they weren’t getting their money, because she’s better at being snarky than I am.
I was involved with similar situation with another family member 12-15 years ago where I had the help of an attorney. A small-estate affidavit was filed and we also had to place the ad in the local paper. (I'm not sure how many readers they still have these days...probably not too many.) We never heard from anyone and the whole process seemed like a waste of time.

That is interesting that your medical bills kept trickling in for a while. I am only expecting 2 hospital bills and 1 ambulance bill. Her insurance should cover everything except the co-pays, so I really shouldn't have any other bills. If I do get into a situation where I have to argue about late bills, maybe I will ask for your wife's help. Ha!

Thank you for your reply!
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by tadamsmar »

Does not seem so simple to me.

Here's what I think:

The will covers the estate. Go to the clerk of court in your mother's county or residence to find out what to do about the estate, or look on the county website. (The estate is smaller than you think it is).

The money in the joint account is not part of the estate. You already owned half of it before your mother died and now you own it all. You inherited half and none of it is of the estate.

But it looks like you want to give half the money market joint account to your sister. That will be a gift covered by the IRS gift regulations. The conform to the regulations, you will need to file an IRS form 709 but there will be no gift tax. I am assuming that the gift is big enough to trigger the requirement of a Form 709.

But I am not a lawyer. Consider consulting a lawyer. Or maybe an accountant can advise you on these matters, not sure.
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by tadamsmar »

Does not seem so simple to me.

Here's what I think:

The will covers the estate. Go to the clerk of court in your mother's county of residence to find out what to do about the estate, or look on the county website. (The estate is smaller than you think it is).

The money in the money market joint account is not part of the estate. You already owned half of it before your mother died and now you own it all. You inherited the other half and none of it is in the estate.

But it looks like you want to give half the money market joint account to your sister. That will be a gift (from you to your sister) covered by the IRS gift regulations. The conform to the regulations, you will need to file an IRS form 709 but there will be no gift tax. I am assuming that the gift is big enough to trigger the requirement of a Form 709.

But I am not a lawyer. Consider consulting a lawyer. Or maybe an accountant can advise you on these matters, not sure.
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by gnr »

tadamsmar wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 2:18 pm Does not seem so simple to me.

Here's what I think:

The will covers the estate. Go to the clerk of court in your mother's county of residence to find out what to do about the estate, or look on the county website. (The estate is smaller than you think it is).

The money in the money market joint account is not part of the estate. You already owned half of it before your mother died and now you own it all. You inherited the other half and none of it is in the estate.

But it looks like you want to give half the money market joint account to your sister. That will be a gift (from you to your sister) covered by the IRS gift regulations. The conform to the regulations, you will need to file an IRS form 709 but there will be no gift tax. I am assuming that the gift is big enough to trigger the requirement of a Form 709.

But I am not a lawyer. Consider consulting a lawyer. Or maybe an accountant can advise you on these matters, not sure.
Thank you for your reply. As I have thought about this in multiple ways, your thought process is one of them. I do realize that technically, her estate is mostly nothing. The reason I am on her money market account is just for convenience. I have never put any of my money into that account nor have I taken anything out of it for anything other than for her use (which can be proven with receipts and statements). So, my counter argument is that in this situation where I am taking care of a 95 year old, the intent was never to actually share the account. Her checking account also does have my sister on it as a joint owner for the same reason which is why I likely will have the bank write cashiers checks from that account to each of us for disbursements. Since the money would be coming from an account she is on, I didn't see that as gifting necessarily. I know this may be a gray area, but that seemed to be the easiest solution I could come up with to avoid any unnecessary steps to comply with my mother's wishes.

I will look into the requirements of the 709 form to see if I think that may be necessary. I was trying to avoid the expense of an attorney or accountant if possible. In my mind, this is a simple task of paying all of my mother's bills and distributing the rest as stated in her will which was her intent.

I appreciate your input!
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by tadamsmar »

gnr wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 3:14 pm
tadamsmar wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 2:18 pm Does not seem so simple to me.

Here's what I think:

The will covers the estate. Go to the clerk of court in your mother's county of residence to find out what to do about the estate, or look on the county website. (The estate is smaller than you think it is).

The money in the money market joint account is not part of the estate. You already owned half of it before your mother died and now you own it all. You inherited the other half and none of it is in the estate.

But it looks like you want to give half the money market joint account to your sister. That will be a gift (from you to your sister) covered by the IRS gift regulations. The conform to the regulations, you will need to file an IRS form 709 but there will be no gift tax. I am assuming that the gift is big enough to trigger the requirement of a Form 709.

But I am not a lawyer. Consider consulting a lawyer. Or maybe an accountant can advise you on these matters, not sure.
Thank you for your reply. As I have thought about this in multiple ways, your thought process is one of them. I do realize that technically, her estate is mostly nothing. The reason I am on her money market account is just for convenience. I have never put any of my money into that account nor have I taken anything out of it for anything other than for her use (which can be proven with receipts and statements). So, my counter argument is that in this situation where I am taking care of a 95 year old, the intent was never to actually share the account. Her checking account also does have my sister on it as a joint owner for the same reason which is why I likely will have the bank write cashiers checks from that account to each of us for disbursements. Since the money would be coming from an account she is on, I didn't see that as gifting necessarily. I know this may be a gray area, but that seemed to be the easiest solution I could come up with to avoid any unnecessary steps to comply with my mother's wishes.

I will look into the requirements of the 709 form to see if I think that may be necessary. I was trying to avoid the expense of an attorney or accountant if possible. In my mind, this is a simple task of paying all of my mother's bills and distributing the rest as stated in her will which was her intent.

I appreciate your input!
Remove “technically” from your brain and think about “legally”.

I have no idea what will happen if you do all that. Maybe nothing. Maybe something mostly harmless.

The last time I did it, it costs about 200 bucks to get a 1 hour consultation with a lawyer.
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by tadamsmar »

I just noticed something that might be helpful if you decide to do a 709.

I am working on my 2024 taxes and I noticed that I could upgrade my HR Block software to support the 709. I don't need it, but this might be possible if you use tax prep software.

I found the 709 confusing, but I did manage to do it without software. I did not know that I could do it with a modestly priced upgrade to the software I was already using.

Earlier I said that the money market fund was not in "the" estate. I meant that it was not in your mother's estate. Since you own it and you plan to gift half of it, The IRS treats the gift as if it were a bequest from your estate that needs to be tracked via a 709. If you make enough total bequests then there will be an actual estate/gift tax but you will be very rich if that ever happens! (This paragraph is my non-lawyer interpretation and assumes that the gift is large enough in a given year to require a 709).
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by tadamsmar »

gnr wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 3:14 pm Her checking account also does have my sister on it as a joint owner for the same reason which is why I likely will have the bank write cashiers checks from that account to each of us for disbursements.
If your sister is a joint owner, then she can write her own check, right?

But I see that you are using a cashier's check because someone on the internet told you that it feels better to them.
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by gnr »

tadamsmar wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 4:29 pm
gnr wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 3:14 pm

Thank you for your reply. As I have thought about this in multiple ways, your thought process is one of them. I do realize that technically, her estate is mostly nothing. The reason I am on her money market account is just for convenience. I have never put any of my money into that account nor have I taken anything out of it for anything other than for her use (which can be proven with receipts and statements). So, my counter argument is that in this situation where I am taking care of a 95 year old, the intent was never to actually share the account. Her checking account also does have my sister on it as a joint owner for the same reason which is why I likely will have the bank write cashiers checks from that account to each of us for disbursements. Since the money would be coming from an account she is on, I didn't see that as gifting necessarily. I know this may be a gray area, but that seemed to be the easiest solution I could come up with to avoid any unnecessary steps to comply with my mother's wishes.

I will look into the requirements of the 709 form to see if I think that may be necessary. I was trying to avoid the expense of an attorney or accountant if possible. In my mind, this is a simple task of paying all of my mother's bills and distributing the rest as stated in her will which was her intent.

I appreciate your input!
Remove “technically” from your brain and think about “legally”.

I have no idea what will happen if you do all that. Maybe nothing. Maybe something mostly harmless.

The last time I did it, it costs about 200 bucks to get a 1 hour consultation with a lawyer.
I get what you are saying and "technically" I guess isn't the right word. I have no intent of doing anything illegal. I am simply just trying to do the right thing without any more hassle than is necessary. It doesn't feel right that I should be penalized by having to report the distribution of funds to my sister using the 709 form. (I know the lifetime max is about 14M but I have also read that that figure may get drastically reduced soon.) Anyway, if her funds went through probate, I would not have to be penalized this way. As I said, the only reason I was on her account was for convenience to handle her bills.

As you can see, the comments on this thread have varying opinions. I suspect if I went to multiple attorneys, I would get multiple answers as well. It really makes it difficult for a simple minded person like myself to the right thing without getting punished for it.
Last edited by gnr on Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by gnr »

tadamsmar wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:48 am I just noticed something that might be helpful if you decide to do a 709.

I am working on my 2024 taxes and I noticed that I could upgrade my HR Block software to support the 709. I don't need it, but this might be possible if you use tax prep software.

I found the 709 confusing, but I did manage to do it without software. I did not know that I could do it with a modestly priced upgrade to the software I was already using.

Earlier I said that the money market fund was not in "the" estate. I meant that it was not in your mother's estate. Since you own it and you plan to gift half of it, The IRS treats the gift as if it were a bequest from your estate that needs to be tracked via a 709. If you make enough total bequests then there will be an actual estate/gift tax but you will be very rich if that ever happens! (This paragraph is my non-lawyer interpretation and assumes that the gift is large enough in a given year to require a 709).
I also have been using H&R Block tax software (Deluxe + State) for about the last 10 years or so. I have not purchased it yet for 2024. I will keep that in mind about the 709. I have not done too much research yet, but I have read that it is a bit confusing to fill out by hand.

As I said in my last post, it seems a bit unfair that I may need to file a 709 and have that count against my lifetime gifting amount when I wouldn't if I hadn't been joint on the account and her funds went to her estate. If that were the case, nothing would have been different with regards to how I managed her finances. I have found online where there are cases that use that argument to contest wills when an executor/personal representative didn't honor the will because they were a joint account holder. I'm doing the opposite (the right thing to do) and feel I am getting the shaft. (Yes, I do realize I may or may not ever reach the lifetime earnings limit before taxes are billed, but it is more about the principle.)
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by gnr »

tadamsmar wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:57 am
gnr wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 3:14 pm Her checking account also does have my sister on it as a joint owner for the same reason which is why I likely will have the bank write cashiers checks from that account to each of us for disbursements.
If your sister is a joint owner, then she can write her own check, right?

But I see that you are using a cashier's check because someone on the internet told you that it feels better to them.
My sister is a joint account holder at the local bank with the checking account but not the money market account at the online bank with the larger balance. I just thought using a cashier's check might look a little more official as a disbursement than me or her just signing a personal check. (No, I didn't see this suggested on the internet.)
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by bsteiner »

tadamsmar wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 4:29 pm ...

The last time I did it, it costs about 200 bucks to get a 1 hour consultation with a lawyer.
That's about as attractive to a trusts and estates lawyer as a $20 consultation with a dentist whom you're not going to use to fill your cavities.
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by rbd789 »

gnr wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:48 pm
tadamsmar wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:48 am I just noticed something that might be helpful if you decide to do a 709.

I am working on my 2024 taxes and I noticed that I could upgrade my HR Block software to support the 709. I don't need it, but this might be possible if you use tax prep software.

I found the 709 confusing, but I did manage to do it without software. I did not know that I could do it with a modestly priced upgrade to the software I was already using.

Earlier I said that the money market fund was not in "the" estate. I meant that it was not in your mother's estate. Since you own it and you plan to gift half of it, The IRS treats the gift as if it were a bequest from your estate that needs to be tracked via a 709. If you make enough total bequests then there will be an actual estate/gift tax but you will be very rich if that ever happens! (This paragraph is my non-lawyer interpretation and assumes that the gift is large enough in a given year to require a 709).
I also have been using H&R Block tax software (Deluxe + State) for about the last 10 years or so. I have not purchased it yet for 2024. I will keep that in mind about the 709. I have not done too much research yet, but I have read that it is a bit confusing to fill out by hand.

As I said in my last post, it seems a bit unfair that I may need to file a 709 and have that count against my lifetime gifting amount when I wouldn't if I hadn't been joint on the account and her funds went to her estate. If that were the case, nothing would have been different with regards to how I managed her finances. I have found online where there are cases that use that argument to contest wills when an executor/personal representative didn't honor the will because they were a joint account holder. I'm doing the opposite (the right thing to do) and feel I am getting the shaft. (Yes, I do realize I may or may not ever reach the lifetime earnings limit before taxes are billed, but it is more about the principle.)
I am definitely not a lawyer. It's my understanding that if the joint account was joint solely for convenience, and you contributed nothing to it, it's possible to disclaim the account, effectively putting it in the estate. I may eventually have this same situation and have been interested in this possibility for a while...
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by twh »

I've handled 3 parent's deaths and estates. Here is something that happened. Similar to the OP, my wife and I were on her parents checking account since I handled all the accounts for years. It was for convenience. When the last one passed, part of the Will was to give their long time housekeeper $10K. The state they lived in taxes inheritances and that state wanted to tax the $10K I sent to the housekeeper from the joint account that was mine and wife's after they both passed. So, in this case the state viewed it as part of the estate. Now, the lawyer that had handled the trust sent the state a letter saying it was not part of the estate since wife and I owned it outright after they passed. The state relented. My point is you can make a case for either way. Since these are small sums, take the path of least resistance. There is no fraud and it all comes out the same, just with less paperwork and hassle.
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by tadamsmar »

bsteiner wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 2:49 pm
tadamsmar wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 4:29 pm ...

The last time I did it, it costs about 200 bucks to get a 1 hour consultation with a lawyer.
That's about as attractive to a trusts and estates lawyer as a $20 consultation with a dentist whom you're not going to use to fill your cavities.
That's probably true if they are very booked up. But I and my family members have done it numerous times. I did have an experience where I could not get a consultation to review my liability for volunteering to set up a website (using my credit card) for a scholarship fund, but this was a law firm that specialized in cyber liability. Never a problem getting a consultation from lawyers, accountants, or tax experts for eldercare or estate issues. And in one case I got a short consult on a potential 1031 exchange and did a follow-up to get more services from the lawyer. I have had lawyers give me free consultations on 3 occasions after I had given them a modest amount of previous business.

The advantage for the lawyer (other than the small fee) is that they make a client contact and the client might come to them for other services later.

Heck, my stepdaughter even got useful free services from an opposing lawyer in an inheritance dispute.
Last edited by tadamsmar on Tue Feb 04, 2025 9:10 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by tadamsmar »

twh wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 3:18 pm Since these are small sums, take the path of least resistance. There is no fraud and it all comes out the same, just with less paperwork and hassle.
What is your definition of a small sum? I read the OP to say that the account had at least $200K. Money transfers of more that $10,000 get flagged by virtue of banking and IRS regulations so they need to be properly documented. The IRS 709 filing limit is currently 18,000 per recipient per year.

But, it could be that IRS would deem the OP's actions as proper even if they were flagged and investigated.
Last edited by tadamsmar on Tue Feb 04, 2025 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by tadamsmar »

rbd789 wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 2:55 pm
gnr wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:48 pm

I also have been using H&R Block tax software (Deluxe + State) for about the last 10 years or so. I have not purchased it yet for 2024. I will keep that in mind about the 709. I have not done too much research yet, but I have read that it is a bit confusing to fill out by hand.

As I said in my last post, it seems a bit unfair that I may need to file a 709 and have that count against my lifetime gifting amount when I wouldn't if I hadn't been joint on the account and her funds went to her estate. If that were the case, nothing would have been different with regards to how I managed her finances. I have found online where there are cases that use that argument to contest wills when an executor/personal representative didn't honor the will because they were a joint account holder. I'm doing the opposite (the right thing to do) and feel I am getting the shaft. (Yes, I do realize I may or may not ever reach the lifetime earnings limit before taxes are billed, but it is more about the principle.)
I am definitely not a lawyer. It's my understanding that if the joint account was joint solely for convenience, and you contributed nothing to it, it's possible to disclaim the account, effectively putting it in the estate. I may eventually have this same situation and have been interested in this possibility for a while...
The situation is that the OP had a POA. He could just sign checks on her account without being a joint owner on a $200,000 account when there was no intention of him being the sole beneficiary.

Maybe he can still disclaim and get it into the estate if you a right.

(I know some want joint accounts to allow access to funds immediately after a death. I personally would avoid that and just loan the estate money if necessary, but that would not work if I were too cash-strapped.)
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by gnr »

rbd789 wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 2:55 pm
gnr wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:48 pm

I also have been using H&R Block tax software (Deluxe + State) for about the last 10 years or so. I have not purchased it yet for 2024. I will keep that in mind about the 709. I have not done too much research yet, but I have read that it is a bit confusing to fill out by hand.

As I said in my last post, it seems a bit unfair that I may need to file a 709 and have that count against my lifetime gifting amount when I wouldn't if I hadn't been joint on the account and her funds went to her estate. If that were the case, nothing would have been different with regards to how I managed her finances. I have found online where there are cases that use that argument to contest wills when an executor/personal representative didn't honor the will because they were a joint account holder. I'm doing the opposite (the right thing to do) and feel I am getting the shaft. (Yes, I do realize I may or may not ever reach the lifetime earnings limit before taxes are billed, but it is more about the principle.)
I am definitely not a lawyer. It's my understanding that if the joint account was joint solely for convenience, and you contributed nothing to it, it's possible to disclaim the account, effectively putting it in the estate. I may eventually have this same situation and have been interested in this possibility for a while...
Yes, I have seen this as an option but I would rather just do the 709 form to avoid the legal fees and hoop jumping for no real gain.

If I had it to do over again, I would probably just have her account set up by herself with me and my sister as POD 50/50. The reason we didn't go this route before was just convenience. Sometimes people have issues with POA forms and/or it causes extra hassle. It seems when taking care of elderly parents, there really isn't a simple way to handle it... especially for honest folks with good intentions. That is the world we live in.
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by gnr »

twh wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 3:18 pm I've handled 3 parent's deaths and estates. Here is something that happened. Similar to the OP, my wife and I were on her parents checking account since I handled all the accounts for years. It was for convenience. When the last one passed, part of the Will was to give their long time housekeeper $10K. The state they lived in taxes inheritances and that state wanted to tax the $10K I sent to the housekeeper from the joint account that was mine and wife's after they both passed. So, in this case the state viewed it as part of the estate. Now, the lawyer that had handled the trust sent the state a letter saying it was not part of the estate since wife and I owned it outright after they passed. The state relented. My point is you can make a case for either way. Since these are small sums, take the path of least resistance. There is no fraud and it all comes out the same, just with less paperwork and hassle.
I can certainly see both sides in different situations. In my case, I just didn't realize I might have to deal with reporting disbursements from my mother's accounts as gifting from me which counts against my lifetime limit. (This may or may not ever come in to play, but it's still the principle of the matter that irritates me.) It's my fault for not doing further research up front, but I honestly I thought it was just going to be simple because my mother had no debts and it was only my sister and I who would never argue about her money.
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Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by gnr »

tadamsmar wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 8:32 am
twh wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 3:18 pm Since these are small sums, take the path of least resistance. There is no fraud and it all comes out the same, just with less paperwork and hassle.
What is your definition of a small sum? I read the OP to say that the account had at least $200K. Money transfers of more that $10,000 get flagged by virtue of banking and IRS regulations so they need to be properly documented. The IRS 709 filing limit is currently 18,000 per recipient per year.

But, it could be that IRS would deem the OP's actions as proper even if they were flagged and investigated.
Yes, you are correct that the amount in question would be over the gifting limit (18K for 2024, 19K 2025) which then requires a 709 form as you have mentioned. If I didn't file it, I do think I could try and explain the situation if I were ever questioned, but I really would rather just avoid any confrontation and file the form taking the hit against my lifetime limit. It would really be nice if there were some provision for not having to file the 709 form when dealing with this type of situation.
Topic Author
gnr
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 11:55 pm

Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by gnr »

tadamsmar wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 8:45 am
rbd789 wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 2:55 pm

I am definitely not a lawyer. It's my understanding that if the joint account was joint solely for convenience, and you contributed nothing to it, it's possible to disclaim the account, effectively putting it in the estate. I may eventually have this same situation and have been interested in this possibility for a while...
The situation is that the OP had a POA. He could just sign checks on her account without being a joint owner on a $200,000 account when there was no intention of him being the sole beneficiary.

Maybe he can still disclaim and get it into the estate if you a right.

(I know some want joint accounts to allow access to funds immediately after a death. I personally would avoid that and just loan the estate money if necessary, but that would not work if I were too cash-strapped.)
You are correct that I had a POA. However, we thought it was easier to just be joint on the account since sometimes dealing with POAs can be more of a hassle, cause delays, and perhaps the POA even questioned or not allowed at all. Looking back on the simple life my mom had, we likely would not have encountered too many issues but at the time, we really didn't know what we might have to deal with. Anyway, it looks like I will be taking the easiest (and cheapest) way out and just filling out the 709 form. In my mind, it will never feel right but I don't see any better options.

Thanks again for all of your assistance.
Topic Author
gnr
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 11:55 pm

Re: Seeking assistance on settling a simple estate

Post by gnr »

tadamsmar wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:48 am I just noticed something that might be helpful if you decide to do a 709.

I am working on my 2024 taxes and I noticed that I could upgrade my HR Block software to support the 709. I don't need it, but this might be possible if you use tax prep software.

I found the 709 confusing, but I did manage to do it without software. I did not know that I could do it with a modestly priced upgrade to the software I was already using.
Can you elaborate on where you found the 709 form available as an upgrade on your H&R Block software? Also, what version are you using? (I have always used desktop Deluxe + State.) I looked at the 4 desktop options on their website and didn't see the 709 listed in the available forms section. I won't need it for 2024 taxes but would just like to aware of my options when I do need to file it.

Thank you
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