Preserving wealth in case of cryonic preservation after death

[Bishop69]

I want to discuss the financial aspects of cryonic preservation of the body after death. Has anyone considering this procedure developed a plan for preservation of assets so that they may be continued to be used upon revival and potential achievement of immortality? Have you identified any other financial issues?

[beyou]

What is your time horizon ?

If you are revived in 100 years, many companies in your index may no longer exist.
Think Eastern Airlines, TWA, JC Penneys, Sears and many others.
Bonds mature usually within 30 years, so they will sit uninvested unless you hire an investment advisor to manage your account when incapacitated.

From a legal perspective might be easier if frozen before death so your accounts are not locked and put into probate.
Or move them to a trust where you can possibly have assets held in limbo for a period of time.
You may have to register your trust in a place where longer term trusts are legal.
Seems a lot of cost to plan for something that is so remote and unlikely.

Interesting thought topic but are you serious ?

[MoonOrb]

When I become immortal I'm planning on just working--maybe doing the talk show circuit, selling books telling other people how to become immortal, stuff like that. The time horizon for funding my lifestyle for eternity is really too long to do any meaningful planning.

[beyou]

When I become immortal I'm planning on just working--maybe doing the talk show circuit, selling books telling other people how to become immortal, stuff like that. The time horizon for funding my lifestyle for eternity is really too long to do any meaningful planning.

Well if scientifically feasible then more perpetual bonds and annuities could be sold.
Of course nobody would want to sell them to you.

[MoonOrb]

Right, this is why immortals should plan on just getting jobs and not retiring--one of the hidden downsides of immortality.

[rob]

What is your time horizon ?

If you are revived in 100 years, many companies in your index may no longer exist.
Think Eastern Airlines, TWA, JC Penneys, Sears and many others.
Bonds mature usually within 30 years, so they will sit uninvested unless you hire an investment advisor to manage your account when incapacitated.

From a legal perspective might be easier if frozen before death so your accounts are not locked and put into probate.
Or move them to a trust where you can possibly have assets held in limbo for a period of time.
You may have to register your trust in a place where longer term trusts are legal.
Seems a lot of cost to plan for something that is so remote and unlikely.

Interesting thought topic but are you serious ?

The index will probably still exist (certainly in as few as 100 years), so a world wide index makes the most sense. I don't think there are immortal trusts so maybe a private company makes more sense.

[smitcat]

I want to discuss the financial aspects of cryonic preservation of the body after death. Has anyone considering this procedure developed a plan for preservation of assets so that they may be continued to be used upon revival and potential achievement of immortality? Have you identified any other financial issues?

Here is a start....
"Estate attorneys are creating trusts aimed at extending wealth until people who get cryonically preserved can be revived, even if it’s hundreds of years later."
Link:
https://www.advisorhub.com/can-money-li ... e-revival/

[Harmanic]

Just follow the Struldbrugg Plan.

[Northern Flicker]

I want to discuss the financial aspects of cryonic preservation of the body after death. Has anyone considering this procedure developed a plan for preservation of assets so that they may be continued to be used upon revival and potential achievement of immortality? Have you identified any other financial issues?

While you're at it, why not also try to figure out how to use retirement income if an alien spaceship lands on earth, and you have an opportunity to go live on another planet? It's always good to be prepared for the unexpected.

[nisiprius]

Wikipedia, Cryonics:

Early attempts at cryonic preservation were made in the 1960s and early 1970s; most relied on family members to pay for the preservation and ended in failure, with all but one of the corpses cryopreserved before 1973 thawed and disposed of.[Source]....

It seems extremely unlikely that any cryonics company could exist long enough to take advantage of the supposed benefits offered; historically, even the most robust corporations have only a one-in-a-thousand chance of lasting 100 years.Source Many cryonics companies have failed; as of 2018, all but one of the pre-1973 batch had gone out of business, and their stored corpses have been defrosted and disposed of.[Source]

[beyou]

I want to discuss the financial aspects of cryonic preservation of the body after death. Has anyone considering this procedure developed a plan for preservation of assets so that they may be continued to be used upon revival and potential achievement of immortality? Have you identified any other financial issues?

While you're at it, why not also try to figure out how to use retirement income if an alien spaceship lands on earth, and you have an opportunity to go live on another planet? It's always good to be prepared for the unexpected.

Good topic for the one stop shop threads, interstellar transfers with or without a fee ?

[123]

If there are assets set aside for your return you will have to arrange for management of those assets, likely using a corporate trustee. Of course your plans would have to support the filing of enduring estate income tax returns. In terms of investment options likely index funds in some form will endure and governmental debt instruments (like treasuries) are not likely to go away.

The biggest risk is likely theft/embezzlement of your assets which may not be discovered until the statutes of limitations have expired and the culprits deceased.

So maybe the plan should be index funds, treasury rollovers, and chill, chill, chill...

[Bishop69]

Interesting thought topic but are you serious ?

Yes, I'm 100 percent serious. There's legit science behind brain preservation movement. Not without its controversies of course. But like any other scientific endeavour in its infancy, it attracts a lot of criticism. I am personally fully on board with this idea

[Bishop69]

Wikipedia, Cryonics:

Early attempts at cryonic preservation were made in the 1960s and early 1970s; most relied on family members to pay for the preservation and ended in failure, with all but one of the corpses cryopreserved before 1973 thawed and disposed of.[Source]....

It seems extremely unlikely that any cryonics company could exist long enough to take advantage of the supposed benefits offered; historically, even the most robust corporations have only a one-in-a-thousand chance of lasting 100 years.Source Many cryonics companies have failed; as of 2018, all but one of the pre-1973 batch had gone out of business, and their stored corpses have been defrosted and disposed of.[Source]

Don't you feel the FOMO though? You've only got one shot at this. If you don't arrange for this before death, you just die and have zero chance for revival in the future. If you do, the chances may be still zero but may be more than zero. If it doesn't work out, who cares. You are already dead. How can it get any worse. I see no negative side of this.

[Valuethinker]

I want to discuss the financial aspects of cryonic preservation of the body after death. Has anyone considering this procedure developed a plan for preservation of assets so that they may be continued to be used upon revival and potential achievement of immortality? Have you identified any other financial issues?

I am afraid I instantly thought of this

https://www.fantasticfiction.com/b/lois ... yoburn.htm

Cryoburn by Lois McMaster Bujold

I am sure there is a better novel than this one on this subject, but, this novel, coming the week of my father's death, hit me rather hard.

[FireAway]

I would invest 100% in cryonic preservation stocks.
If cryonic preservation turns out to work, you will be billionaire (trillionaire? quadrillionaire?) when they thaw you out.
If cryonic preservation turns out to be a hoax, you'll be broke, but you won't care.

Win-win.

[livesoft]

Don't forget to read Ramakrishnan's "Why We Die"
Get past the Bro Science into molecular biology.

[devillif311]

You are assuming these companies would actually last for decades based on a sort of ponzi scheme to need new clients to fund existing clients that are in these chambers. Realize that once money dries up you are pretty much SOL.

[bsteiner]

I want to discuss the financial aspects of cryonic preservation of the body after death. Has anyone considering this procedure developed a plan for preservation of assets so that they may be continued to be used upon revival and potential achievement of immortality? Have you identified any other financial issues?

Yes, we thought about this a good deal a while back for a client. It's complicated.

[FeralCat]

Wikipedia, Cryonics:

Don't you feel the FOMO though? You've only got one shot at this. If you don't arrange for this before death, you just die and have zero chance for revival in the future. If you do, the chances may be still zero but may be more than zero. If it doesn't work out, who cares. You are already dead. How can it get any worse. I see no negative side of this.

I will be reincarnated with a new life, and you will be stuck in a freezer.

[Onlineid3089]

They did a smashing job of preserving Ted Williams brain.

[MadHungarian]

Trust Administrator says to themself, "Hmm, i can thaw them out and lose my gravytrain, or else i can keep them frozen and continue to suck in the admin fees forever." Which option are they likely to choose?

[ScubaHogg]

Don't you feel the FOMO though? You've only got one shot at this. If you don't arrange for this before death, you just die and have zero chance for revival in the future. If you do, the chances may be still zero but may be more than zero. If it doesn't work out, who cares. You are already dead. How can it get any worse. I see no negative side of this.

You care because you will have wasted your one life chasing immortality.

Why not just pay for the freezing and assume you can get a job if you magically wake up (which you won’t, but who cares)?

[Beensabu]

Have you identified any other financial issues?

It's entirely possible that you end up revived to find yourself in indentured servitude, as your initial cost is now considered a deposit that did not account for ongoing maintenance fees and you've racked up quite the debt.

[LilyFleur]

Have you identified any other financial issues?

It's entirely possible that you end up revived to find yourself in indentured servitude, as your initial cost is now considered a deposit that did not account for ongoing maintenance fees and you've racked up quite the debt.

I'd read the fine print on the freezer company contract. If ongoing costs aren't paid, do they continue to provide services to a frozen human being without financial resources? It's not a viable business model.

[Hebell]

I'm holding out for pearly gates, or joining the river of consciousness, or getting wrapped up into a small higher dimension. From dust I came and to dust I'll return. The thought of immortality holds absolutely no appeal whatsoever.

[icrf]

Literature is rife with examples of other things than money to think about.

Take Tomorrow and Tomorrow by Charles Sheffield[1] which covers, among other things, the attempt to live your life in a way to make someone want to unfreeze you in the future.

Or how about the Bobiverse series by Dennis Taylor[2], where he is woken up by the religious fundamentalist government that then occupies America to have his consciousness shoved into a space probe.

Both are excellent reads, too, especially if you're into hard sci-fi. Get some perspective before spending money on your potential second life legacy.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZC6SJY
[2] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LWAESYQ

[CRC_Volunteer]

Reminds me of the Star Trek TNG episode, "The Neutral Zone".

[dcabler]

I want to discuss the financial aspects of cryonic preservation of the body after death. Has anyone considering this procedure developed a plan for preservation of assets so that they may be continued to be used upon revival and potential achievement of immortality? Have you identified any other financial issues?

Assets that might not even make any sense upon revival?

No, because cryonic preservation is not something we'd ever consider. We prefer to spend what we have while we are for sure alive and leave whatever is left for those who also for sure are alive. Not for a maybe we'll be alive again someday situation.

Cheers.

[nisiprius]

Wikipedia, Cryonics:

Don't you feel the FOMO though? You've only got one shot at this. If you don't arrange for this before death, you just die and have zero chance for revival in the future. If you do, the chances may be still zero but may be more than zero. If it doesn't work out, who cares. You are already dead. How can it get any worse. I see no negative side of this.

First of all, some quick web searches indicate that at least one cryonics company will promise indefinite maintenance for a one-time lump-sum fee of 120,000€. I prefer not to give an actual link to the source because I don't want to promote them.

The short answer is indefinitely. This is because the funds are managed in a way to ensure that you can remain in suspension until it is possible to be revived.

[We work] with a non-profit partner organization called the [XYZ] Foundation (XYZF) to maintain your funds. 120.000€ of the funds from the term life insurance are allocated to the XYZF. The XYZF puts these funds into very low risk investments that have an annual yield of 1-2% above inflation. This is more than enough to pay for the running costs of keeping patients cryopreserved (e.g. liquid nitrogen refills).

So if you are willing to trust these corporations with the preservation, why not trust them with the finances?

With regard to FOMO, $200,000 for freezing plus $120,000 for perpetual care is a lot to pay to assuage FOMO. And there's more than one entity that says there's an afterlife and can guarantee to smooth the way to a good one for that kind of money. The same argument applies to all of them; it might be true, how can you afford to pass it up just in case it is?

As far as I know, the largest organism ever to be revived after long-term freezing are tardigrades, after thirty years. They're about a millimeter long, so not quite microscopic. In a science demo, I once saw a guy drop a goldfish in a bucket of liquid air, and seemingly freeze it; then, after a few seconds, drop it in water, and seemingly revive it. But fish can't survive being frozen over a winter.

I think cryonics as practiced today is not worth paying attention to until someone successfully freezes and revives a mammal--one with a brain large enough to make some assessment of whether it has retained any memories or personality, and can demonstrate reasonable health and a reasonable life span after revival.

If cryonics as fantasized becomes a reality, I don't believe the processes being used today will be anywhere close to the methods that actually work.

I see no negative side of this.

The negative side is that you're trading $320,000 that could make your life nicer now in exchange for pie in the sky when you die.

Plus, of course, think of all the misery that Ted Williams has put his family through. The false hopes, the doubts, the lawsuits...

[Northern Flicker]

You are already dead. How can it get any worse? I see no negative side of this.

You could be revived to severe pain. Once frozen/dead, you cannot advocate for yourself to avoid being a biology experiment (in the unlikely that there actually is any life left for experimentation).

[PVW]

Not to hijack this thread, but I believe that science is much closer to transferring my consciousness into digital form than it is to reviving a cryogenic head.

In this case, my consciousness won't be cryogenically suspended and it will always be able to make decisions. So can I transfer my assets to the digital me? Or is there any need to transfer assets - i.e., is the digital me the same entity as the physical me? What happens if there is more than one copy of my consciousness?

[J295]

Use a flux capacitor upon revival to purchase appropriate assets in past time, then return to future time.

[Northern Flicker]

The negative side is that you're trading $320,000 that could make your life nicer now in exchange for pie in the sky when you die.

Or missing the opportunity for the assets to be used to make some other people's lives better after your own death.

[humblecoder]

This reminds me of a joke. DISCLAIMER: I am terrible at telling jokes, so apologies in advance.

Man goes into a coma for 100 years. Wakes up. Doctor tells him the bad news is that it is 100 years in the future, so everyone he knows is dead. Good news is that, thanks to compound interest, his nest egg has grown to $10 Billion!!!

While the man is disappointed that he has to start over, he is elated by his newfound wealth. He goes to a pay phone* to call his brokerage firm. He pus in a dime and dials the number. A recording message comes on, "Please deposit an additional $1 Billion in order to complete your call"

* - For those under 50, a pay phone is a kind of like a cell phone. Except it is usually heavy and attached to a wall so you can't carry it with you. And you can only use it to make phone calls. And in order to make said phone calls, you need to deposit coins** into it.

** - For those under 30, coins are a form of legal currency. Usually, they are round, flat, and made from metal. And they are in very small denominations (1 cent, 5 cents, 10 cents, 25 cents). There is a myth that one dollar coins exist, but very few people have seen them in the wild.

[anoop]

I want to discuss the financial aspects of cryonic preservation of the body after death. Has anyone considering this procedure developed a plan for preservation of assets so that they may be continued to be used upon revival and potential achievement of immortality? Have you identified any other financial issues?

Buy gold bars and have them preserved with your body.

[Doctor Rhythm]

OP, Cryogenics is a pretty fringy topic and an even rarer goal.* Which is to say you might get more traction researching options on a more specific forum (? IceHeads) and bringing ideas back to here for vetting. Here's another couple thread on this topic (seems like a way to convince a susceptible group to buy permanent life insurance):

viewtopic.php?t=341732
viewtopic.php?p=5725401

*Does anyone remember this being a bigger thing in 1970's along with ESP and sensory deprivation tanks?

[BolderBoy]

I want to discuss the financial aspects of cryonic preservation of the body after death. Has anyone considering this procedure developed a plan for preservation of assets so that they may be continued to be used upon revival and potential achievement of immortality? Have you identified any other financial issues?

This question has been asked of the cryonic preservation organization(s) many times. Why not call them up and ask how it is typically handled?

[LadyGeek]

This thread was temporarily removed for moderator review. Please stay focused on the financial aspects of cryonic preservation.

[teen persuasion]

Not to hijack this thread, but I believe that science is much closer to transferring my consciousness into digital form than it is to reviving a cryogenic head.

In this case, my consciousness won't be cryogenically suspended and it will always be able to make decisions. So can I transfer my assets to the digital me? Or is there any need to transfer assets - i.e., is the digital me the same entity as the physical me? What happens if there is more than one copy of my consciousness?

Have you seen the series Upload? It explores the issues with the wealth belonging to those who uploaded their consciousness, and the digital afterlife they live in, and what happens when your wealth runs out - a virtual nursing home/throttled phone plan model.

There was a whole industry of living virtual assistants to cater to the uploaded individuals - everything was an upcharge. The AI staff in the upload world was always glitchy. It was hilarious, but covered the issues well.

[ScubaHogg]

Not to hijack this thread, but I believe that science is much closer to transferring my consciousness into digital form than it is to reviving a cryogenic head.

The idea that the same people who can't make the autocorrect on my phone not terrible (i.e., turning words into non-words) could somehow upload my brain (which they have zero idea how it truly works) and successfully store it (i.e., no beach balls of death) is hilarious

[hoofaman]

One of the Cyberpunk 2077 endings involved backing up your mind/consciousness to a computer, but before you could choose to do that you were presented with forms to consider and sign, the main character was made aware that after legal death you have no more rights/laws protecting you and the corporation hosting your mind/consciousness could do whatever they wanted with it

[quantAndHold]

You are already dead. How can it get any worse? I see no negative side of this.

There absolutely are things that are worse than death, ranging from the personal problems of pain and suffering, to what a billion Lazaruses wandering around would do to the planet.

But since this is a financial forum and that’s what we’re talking about, my plan is to be a burden on my great grandchildren.

[barnaclebob]

Not to hijack this thread, but I believe that science is much closer to transferring my consciousness into digital form than it is to reviving a cryogenic head.

The idea that the same people who can't make the autocorrect on my phone not terrible (i.e., turning words into non-words) could somehow upload my brain (which they have zero idea how it truly works) and successfully store it (i.e., no beach balls of death) is hilarious

Closer doesn't mean close.

[Valuethinker]

Literature is rife with examples of other things than money to think about.

Take Tomorrow and Tomorrow by Charles Sheffield[1] which covers, among other things, the attempt to live your life in a way to make someone want to unfreeze you in the future.

Or how about the Bobiverse series by Dennis Taylor[2], where he is woken up by the religious fundamentalist government that then occupies America to have his consciousness shoved into a space probe.

Both are excellent reads, too, especially if you're into hard sci-fi. Get some perspective before spending money on your potential second life legacy.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZC6SJY
[2] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LWAESYQ

(repeating my post)

Cryoburn by Lois McMaster Bujold

https://www.fantasticfiction.com/b/lois ... yoburn.htm

Kibou-daini is a planet obsessed with cheating death. Barrayaran Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan can hardly disapprove--he's been cheating death his whole life, on the theory that turnabout is fair play. But when a Kibou-daini cryocorp--an immortal company whose job it is to shepherd its all-too-mortal frozen patrons into an unknown future--attempts to expand its franchise into the Barrayaran Empire, Emperor Gregor dispatches his top troubleshooter Miles to check it out.

On Kibou-daini, Miles discovers generational conflict over money and resources is heating up, even as refugees displaced in time skew the meaning of generation past repair. Here he finds a young boy with a passion for pets and a dangerous secret, a Snow White trapped in an icy coffin who burns to re-write her own tale, and a mysterious crone who is the very embodiment of the warning Don't mess with the secretary. Bribery, corruption, conspiracy, kidnapping--something is rotten on Kibou-daini, and it isn't due to power outages in the Cryocombs. And Miles is in the middle--of trouble!

Reading it the week of my father's funeral (which was also the week of his death) this book had quite an impact. I don't know if it is actually any good, but it sure as heck hit me hard.

[one_speed]

I want to discuss the financial aspects of cryonic preservation of the body after death. Has anyone considering this procedure developed a plan for preservation of assets so that they may be continued to be used upon revival and potential achievement of immortality? Have you identified any other financial issues?

Star Trek: the Next Generation season 1, Episode 26

[Hot Sauce]

If one doesn’t like the time period they are living in, can they have themselves cryogenically frozen until some future time period, thaw out to see if they like it at that time, and if not re-freeze, and so on? Like a pause button on life until times are better?

[Valuethinker]

This reminds me of a joke. DISCLAIMER: I am terrible at telling jokes, so apologies in advance.

Man goes into a coma for 100 years. Wakes up. Doctor tells him the bad news is that it is 100 years in the future, so everyone he knows is dead. Good news is that, thanks to compound interest, his nest egg has grown to $10 Billion!!!

While the man is disappointed that he has to start over, he is elated by his newfound wealth. He goes to a pay phone* to call his brokerage firm. He pus in a dime and dials the number. A recording message comes on, "Please deposit an additional $1 Billion in order to complete your call"

* - For those under 50, a pay phone is a kind of like a cell phone. Except it is usually heavy and attached to a wall so you can't carry it with you. And you can only use it to make phone calls. And in order to make said phone calls, you need to deposit coins** into it.

Dr Evil (revivified after 50 years in cryogenic sleep, to be pursued by Austin Powers): "We are going to hold the world to ransom, for ONE MILLION DOLLARS!"

** - For those under 30, coins are a form of legal currency. Usually, they are round, flat, and made from metal. And they are in very small denominations (1 cent, 5 cents, 10 cents, 25 cents). There is a myth that one dollar coins exist, but very few people have seen them in the wild.

This is a historical error and should be corrected.

After the republic in the southern half of the North American continent** fell to the combined Canadian/ Greenlander alliance in 2070, the official currency became "the dollar" whose $1 coins were known as "Looneys" and $2 coins were known as "Tooneys". Still found in archaeological excavations, these coins are quite valuable (see Solidus: Roman for comparison).

** from memory it was called the United Confederate states of Amerigo (Vespucci) but I don't remember exactly. Consult the Wiki-Consciousness for further information.

[Dusn]

Not to hijack this thread, but I believe that science is much closer to transferring my consciousness into digital form than it is to reviving a cryogenic head.

In this case, my consciousness won't be cryogenically suspended and it will always be able to make decisions. So can I transfer my assets to the digital me? Or is there any need to transfer assets - i.e., is the digital me the same entity as the physical me? What happens if there is more than one copy of my consciousness?

But would digital you really be you?

I’d argue that if you can still be alive and talk to a digital version of yourself, then it’s clearly not you anymore - no matter how much it might act like you or share your memories. It’s a copy of you but it’s not you.

If I were the judge I would characterize the transfer of assets as being transferred to a separate entity.

[Hot Sauce]

* - For those under 50, a pay phone is a kind of like a cell phone. Except it is usually heavy and attached to a wall so you can't carry it with you. And you can only use it to make phone calls. And in order to make said phone calls, you need to deposit coins** into it.

I would just make a collect call.