I don’t need a will, right? Unmarried, accounts with beneficiaries

[muffins14]

Trying to learn whether I need a will or not.

I have partner to whom I am not married.

We own a home as joint tenants with right of survivorship.

My brokerage, Roth IRA, HSA, 401k all have her set as beneficiary. There are no other investments outside of the above.

No children, and I intend for her to inherit the money if something were to happen to me.

Do I need a will? Or, is the fact that the house is jointly-owned and the liquid investments have her as beneficiary enough to prevent any delay or legal issue upon my passing?

[Twinsfan10]

If you die without a will your state will decide who gets the money. It may or may not be who you want so it is best to have a will. The only people who don't need a will is people who have no assets.

[bsteiner]

Do you want to provide for the possibly that she dies first?

[Flobes]

And the possibility that you both die at the same time?

[2022_FIRE]

Vehicles? Review how they are titled.

Furniture and other personal effects? If you have artwork, nice furniture, or other personal property with sentimental value, a will would handle these things.

Control of accounts (social media)? A will can assist your partner with handling those after your death.

If you die in an accident where another person is at fault, I assume you’d want your partner to get the settlement/judgment. Need a will for that.

And a will can name your partner as a personal rep/executor. There are administrative matters, such as tax returns, that you’ll likely want your partner to control.

[muffins14]

If you die without a will your state will decide who gets the money. It may or may not be who you want so it is best to have a will. The only people who don't need a will is people who have no assets.

How is that possible, when there is a beneficiary on the account? I thought a beneficiary superseded a will.

[muffins14]

Do you want to provide for the possibly that she dies first?

In that case she has me as her beneficiary.

I suppose the case to consider is the one where we both pass at the same time.

[fyre4ce]

A will will control where property that doesn’t have a designated beneficiary will go- car, personal effects, computer, baseball card collection, etc. Theoretically if you die without a will, your state’s laws of intestasy will dictate where this property will go, probably to your closest living blood relative. If your partner just takes it and no one complains I can’t see how this would cause a problem. But if a relative sues… I think it would be prudent to have a will.

Disclaimer: I am NOT an expert in estate planning.

[muffins14]

Vehicles? Review how they are titled.

Furniture and other personal effects? If you have artwork, nice furniture, or other personal property with sentimental value, a will would handle these things.

Control of accounts (social media)? A will can assist your partner with handling those after your death.

If you die in an accident where another person is at fault, I assume you’d want your partner to get the settlement/judgment. Need a will for that.

And a will can name your partner as a personal rep/executor. There are administrative matters, such as tax returns, that you’ll likely want your partner to control.

Thanks, I hadn’t considered furniture or the settlement/judgement case

[Twinsfan10]

If you die without a will your state will decide who gets the money. It may or may not be who you want so it is best to have a will. The only people who don't need a will is people who have no assets.

How is that possible, when there is a beneficiary on the account? I thought a beneficiary superseded a will.

Do you have any siblings who could sue to collect their share? Most states give the estate to blood relatives. I wouldn't want to take my chances. A simple will should not cost much ($1000 or less). You are probably right but who knows what a court will decide.

[mosilaby]

Aside from a will, research a revocable trust. Depending on your location and circumstances, even with a will, your estate could go to probate and any lookie-loo will get to see how much you have to divy up, who it goes to, etc.

Find an estate attorney and square away these simple docs. It doesn't cost much.

[BirdFood]

We are unmarried, have each other as beneficiary on all our accounts, and nevertheless have wills and medical powers of attorney.

My will:

1) Ensures that no one can show up while my guy is still grieving and demand half of the couch.
2) Directs who gets everything if my guy is no longer alive.

There are no doubt several other useful things it does; it's been a while since we wrote our wills.

[TipsQuestions]

Aside from a will, research a revocable trust. Depending on your location and circumstances, even with a will, your estate could go to probate and any lookie-loo will get to see how much you have to divy up, who it goes to, etc.

But if all your assets have beneficiaries, all these lookie loos are going to see are a few personal effects with little value.

[Uniballer]

As noted above, a will makes some things simpler.

Social security survivor benefits require actual marriage, and can be helpful to the survivor even if you have similar benefit amounts (e.g. take survivor benefits early and switch to their own later). Just sayin' that there may be financial benefits to marriage, even late in life.

[toddthebod]

Do you want to provide for the possibly that she dies first?

In that case she has me as her beneficiary.

I suppose the case to consider is the one where we both pass at the same time.

What if you die at the same time, or after she dies, you don't remember to update the beneficiaries on every account?

(Although it sounds like maybe you don't care?)

[happy_statistician]

Your will can also list your partner as the personal representative, which will make them responsible for filing your last tax return. Otherwise I think this thankless job will get assigned to a blood relative (and then any refund will be disbursed to your blood relative heirs, not your partner)

[fyre4ce]

Aside from a will, also consider any other estate planning documents you may need. If you were incapacitated (temporarily or permanently) would you want your partner to be able to make medical decisions for you? If so you probably need a durable power of attorney and an advance healthcare directive. Do you want them to be the executor of your estate? Etc. Many of these things happen automatically for couples that are legally married. You're not, so you should be thinking about how to artificially create the features you want for your life. It may also be worth rethinking whether it makes sense to get legally married as a way to realize these benefits.

The simultaneous death scenario is something else to think about.

[andypanda]

When my father died everything went to my mother as planned without opening probate.

When my mother died five years later there was a $10k refund check from the nursing home made out to the Estate of Mom. There was a small IRA that for some unknown reason had no beneficiary, although it was listed my folks' records as having two. And there was a small checking account with $21k at a local credit union that did not list me as an owner. I was there the day my father opened the account at the retirement community branch and he told them to put the three of us on it as owners. Somehow I was listed as a POA.

Good thing she had a will. It was a minor pain to make an appointment and drive 2.5 hours to the county courthouse for the initial appointment, but the expense was minimal and everything else was handle by mail.

[bsteiner]

Do you want to provide for the possibly that she dies first?

In that case she has me as her beneficiary.

I suppose the case to consider is the one where we both pass at the same time.

Or at different times.

[cadreamer2015]

Aside from a will, also consider any other estate planning documents you may need. If you were incapacitated (temporarily or permanently) would you want your partner to be able to make medical decisions for you? If so you probably need a durable power of attorney and an advance healthcare directive. Do you want them to be the executor of your estate? Etc.

+1

[PeninsulaPerson]

Just sayin' that there may be financial benefits to marriage, even late in life.

+1

Marriage is an unimpeachable credential.

Yup, some folks will never do it 'cause they have been burned or are afraid of being burned. But except in those unfortunate circumstances, it makes a lot of things so much easier - even in life.

[Beachey]

Just sayin' that there may be financial benefits to marriage, even late in life.

+1

Marriage is an unimpeachable credential.

Yup, some folks will never do it 'cause they have been burned or are afraid of being burned. But except in those unfortunate circumstances, it makes a lot of things so much easier - even in life.

+2

I am reading this thread and thinking is there a compelling reason you don't want to get married? Even non-financial issues like your medical proxy are simplified when you get married.

And we got our will written up through a legal services benefit through my wife's work. Cost < $500 for the year and then canceled it the next benefit year.

[muffins14]

I am reading this thread and thinking is there a compelling reason you don't want to get married?

Perhaps not. At present we save around 5k in income tax due to individual vs married taxes. On top of that, we currently can deduct the interest on our 1.5M mortgage, rather than only deducting up to 750k.

in total I think the married taxes vs individual taxes mean we save about 15k-18k annually by remaining unmarried. That number shrinks as the mortgage approaches 750k.

It sounds like getting a basic will would be helpful though, and I appreciate the replies.

[CaptainT]

Everyone has a will it is just do you have one you choose or the default one for your state.

A will would be a kindness to your partner as likely your state doesn't view your partner as your heir instead it is likely your parents, siblings, or neices and nephews who will be able to make end of life choices for you and if they want could fight your partner for any asset you have.

Now does it really matter to you? No you will be near death or dead. It is your partner who will be losing their partner and maybe their home at the same time.

[muffins14]

Everyone has a will it is just do you have one you choose or the default one for your state.

A will would be a kindness to your partner as likely your state doesn't view your partner as your heir instead it is likely your parents, siblings, or neices and nephews who will be able to make end of life choices for you and if they want could fight your partner for any asset you have.

Now does it really matter to you? No you will be near death or dead. It is your partner who will be losing their partner and maybe their home at the same time.

My partner cannot lose the home since we own it as joint tenants with right of survivorship, correct? I thought that was the point of having the title as joint tenants with right of survivorship. This is in NY

[SmileyFace]

If you were married you wouldn't necessarily need a will.
Wanting to leave assets to a unmarried partner without a Will seems very risky.

[Watty]

I have partner to whom I am not married.

When you have a will made you also usually have other paperwork done at the same time with various power of attorney documents and medical directives. In some ways these can be more important than a will since they will be used if something happens like you are incapacitated and someone needs to make your medical decisions and manage your finances for you while you are still alive.

That is especially important when you are not married and people like doctors may not even be able to discuss your medical condition with your partner because of strict HIPAA privacy laws.

You also need to have plans set up in case you both die at the same time in something like a car crash. You also need to have a contingent beneficiary set up on things like your retirement accounts in case your partner is not alive when you die.

There are lots of threads about wills which you can look up but I used Legalzoom to set mine up for a different but simple situation where the majority of my estate is accounts with beneficiaries that are not handled by the will. It was a few years ago but it just involved filling out an online questionnaire then having a 30 minute conference call with a real lawyer and signing the paperwork so it was pretty easy to do and only cost a few hundred dollars and included the related paperwork. Legalzoom may not be right for more complicated situations or if kids are involved but it would be orders of magnitude better in many situations than not have a will and the related paperwork.

If you try to set up something yourself pay a lot of attention to your states requirements for signing the documents since they can be very specific in some states and it is important to do it right. With Legalzoom they gave us instructions on how to sign it in our state.

If you are going to merge your finances and own a house together then you should really have lawyers draw up some sort of premarital agreement if you have not already done that about how your finances will be handled if you ever break up. Married people have a default framework for divorces but without that unmarried couples can have an expensive legal mess at a time when emotions are running high which can take years to unwind.

It is beyond the scope of your post but also be sure to know the impact of not being married when it comes to inheriting IRAs and collecting Social Security based on each others accounts.

[nisiprius]

Just. Get. A. Will. Eat your broccoli, it's good for you. Then whenever people ask if you have one, you can just say "yes," and avoid another ten minutes of inconclusive discussion.

Lawyers don't charge a lot for one, they are hoping to make money later. <-- Wrong according to eric and bsteiner downthread, so withdrawn.

This is particularly important if you live in New York State, which is famous for having strict estate laws and persnickety probate courts.

I have partner to whom I am not married.

That's another reason to Just. Get. A. Will. In the year 2024 you'd think it would be fine, but better to be safe than sorry. Does your partner have any kind of written paper proving their status?

Even if you think that your wishes are the same as what the law provides for someone who dies intestate, and that most of your wealth is jointly owned or subject to brokerage beneficiary statements, that doesn't mean the after-death process is as smooth as it would be with a will.

It's part of a long, complicated story that occurred within my extended family, but the difference between "will" and "no will" in this case happened to involve three years and legal fees well into five figures.

P.S. Estate law is state law, and I'm not a lawyer of any kind. I think it is a general principle that there's only one original of a will, and that even if the copies are signed in ink by witnesses they are not legally identical to the original. Make sure that not only your partner, but anybody else who might need to find the will, knows where the original is and can put their hands on it--quickly.

[muffins14]

If you were married you wouldn't necessarily need a will.
Wanting to leave assets to a unmarried partner without a Will seems very risky.

Could you say more about why this is the case?

I feel like I am not understanding the impact of setting a beneficiary on accounts. My previous understanding was that by setting a beneficiary, the assets contained in that account would pass to the beneficiary and not probate.

Is that not correct?

[Luckywon]

Deleted.. redundant content.

[nisiprius]

If you were married you wouldn't necessarily need a will.
Wanting to leave assets to a unmarried partner without a Will seems very risky.

Could you say more about why this is the case?

I feel like I am not understanding the impact of setting a beneficiary on accounts. My previous understanding was that by setting a beneficiary, the assets contained in that account would pass to the beneficiary and not probate.

Is that not correct?

Only an estate lawyer licensed to practice in your state can say whether your "previous understanding" is 100% correct or only 99% correct.

[bsteiner]

If you were married you wouldn't necessarily need a will.
Wanting to leave assets to a unmarried partner without a Will seems very risky.

Could you say more about why this is the case?

I feel like I am not understanding the impact of setting a beneficiary on accounts. My previous understanding was that by setting a beneficiary, the assets contained in that account would pass to the beneficiary and not probate.

Is that not correct?

It is correct.

It's generally not a good idea to name beneficiaries for taxable accounts (assets other than life insurance and retirement benefits), for many reasons. But if the amount is modest and you only have one beneficiary, it may be OK, and it has the advantage of simplicity.

[bsteiner]

Just. Get. A. Will. Eat your broccoli, it's good for you. Then whenever people ask if you have one, you can just say "yes," and avoid another ten minutes of inconclusive discussion.

Lawyers don't charge a lot for one, they are hoping to make money later.

This is particularly important if you live in New York State, which is famous for having strict estate laws and persnickety probate courts.
...

Obviously we want clients to be happy so they'll come back and perhaps recommend us to others. But like any other service provider, we want to get paid for our time. No one knows what the future will bring.

New York's probate courts are fussier at the inception but once the Will is admitted to probate there's very little to do with the courts absent a dispute.

[bsteiner]

...

My partner cannot lose the home since we own it as joint tenants with right of survivorship, correct? I thought that was the point of having the title as joint tenants with right of survivorship. This is in NY

It's hard to lose it since it's too large to misplace and it can't move on its own. But after your death she can sell it or give it away if she wants (and during your lifetime she can sell or give away her interest in it).

[PeninsulaPerson]

Not married.

No will.

What could go wrong?


One legal nice thing about marriage is that it clarifies and simplifies. Spouses automatically have rights that the unmarried often seem to spend a lot of time trying to pin down or replicate, if it's even possible.

Then there's the potential dodging or answering lots of "Why aren't you ...?" questions and endless explaining to strangers. To each their own and there are justifiable exceptions but for long-term, co-property-owning, devoted couples ...

[muffins14]

Not married.

No will.

What could go wrong?

This is indeed the question that I am asking in the thread

[bsteiner]

Aside from a will, research a revocable trust. Depending on your location and circumstances, even with a will, your estate could go to probate and any lookie-loo will get to see how much you have to divy up, who it goes to, etc.

Find an estate attorney and square away these simple docs. It doesn't cost much.

Most people's Wills are of no interest to their neighbors or the media. In several decades of doing trusts and estates law I've only had two cases where that was a concern. One was a prominent entertainer who was leaving money to several women and didn't want that in the newspapers. The other controlled a small public company and didn't want his key employees to know his business succession plans during his lifetime or his competitors to know them upon his death.

[tibbitts]

IANAL but there seems to be a lot of fearmongering in this thread. On the other hand if I were the OP I'd have a will and the other usual estate documents, even if they were just d-i-y (which is what I have.) Although a problem with d-i-y now is that it's become much more difficult to execute documents due to nobody at a bank etc. willing to be a witness. I guess that's one benefit of a local attorney: they pay people to do that and at least don't charge you an exorbitant per-page fee - even for all those "this page intentionally left blank" pages.

[muffins14]

If you were married you wouldn't necessarily need a will.
Wanting to leave assets to a unmarried partner without a Will seems very risky.

Could you say more about why this is the case?

I feel like I am not understanding the impact of setting a beneficiary on accounts. My previous understanding was that by setting a beneficiary, the assets contained in that account would pass to the beneficiary and not probate.

Is that not correct?

It is correct.

It's generally not a good idea to name beneficiaries for taxable accounts (assets other than life insurance and retirement benefits), for many reasons. But if the amount is modest and you only have one beneficiary, it may be OK, and it has the advantage of simplicity.

Could you share more about why that is not a good idea? Today's taxable account is around 600k, but expected to grow by about 150k per year in contributions. The intention was one beneficiary, should I die and she survive. In the event that we both die simultaneously, I am understanding that I need a will to define which of my other relatives or friends inherit which pieces of the assets.

[stan1]

Not married.

No will.

What could go wrong?

This is indeed the question that I am asking in the thread

To be honest since you want to leave your estate to your unmarried partner that is exactly why you need an estate plan. There's nothing in any state's laws about the roles and rights of an unmarried partner for inheritance, health care decisions and financial power of attorney. Some states have domestic partnerships, but marriage gives you federal and state benefits. You actually need an estate plan more than someone who wants to leave everything to spouse then kids. Without an estate plan siblings, aunts/uncles, nephews/nieces, and cousins are next in line ahead of your partner. Possibly someone you've never even met. Is that what you want?

[PeninsulaPerson]

Not married.

No will.

What could go wrong?

This is indeed the question that I am asking in the thread

And the answer is that nobody knows - not you, not your SO, no one here, no lawyer, nobody.

That is the reason to have the reasonable legal guardrails in place, if you give a hoot.

It's funny but people can make seagulls and vultures seem very lame when it comes to things like "free money" - meaning that people who would not bother if your SO was your wife might make quite a production of things if she was "just" your girlfriend, especially if you die intestate. Or it could happen to you. Really, who wants to lose their partner and then have to fight off rapacious relatives?! (Even if they will likely fail. Worse if they actually succeed!)

How come no will to date (and - to the extent you care to answer - how come no marriage)?

(If you're young/young-ish, that makes sense. For whatever reason, my husband and I did not even think about wills until we were 40+. It was when we got to have enough through our own hard work and frugality that we wanted to be sure the other was protected against any "family seagull" situations and things we just didn't know to think about.)

[muffins14]

How come no will to date (and - to the extent you care to answer - how come no marriage)?

Just turned 38, and had no assets other than brokerage account and 401k before 2023. Being "young" and asset-less, I never thought about a will before.

Purchased condo with unmarried partner in 2023. We own it jointly with right of survivorship.
Per upthread, remaining unmarried saves us about 16-18k annually in taxes, since we can deduct 100% of our mortgage interest on a ~1.5M mortgage, rather than being capped at 750k. That's in addition to some tax-rate arbitrage, since we pay a "marriage penalty" due to the tax brackets and our income levels.

Having no children removes some of the nudge to marry, and we both value the 16-18k in extra money more than the public declaration of commitment. As I am learning in the thread, there are some inheritance issues I need to consider to smooth the way if I die, or if we both die simultaneously.

Now that we have an asset, and some non-trivial investing accounts, it seems that the prudent decision is to get a will to lay out my/our desired beneficiaries for furniture or personal property, for the investing accounts (if the beneficiary set in Fidelity is insufficient).

[PeninsulaPerson]

... also be sure to know the impact of not being married when it comes to inheriting IRAs ...

And then there's this.

[oldfatguy]

If you were married you wouldn't necessarily need a will.
Wanting to leave assets to a unmarried partner without a Will seems very risky.

Could you say more about why this is the case?

I feel like I am not understanding the impact of setting a beneficiary on accounts. My previous understanding was that by setting a beneficiary, the assets contained in that account would pass to the beneficiary and not probate.

Is that not correct?

You are correct - there is just a lot of fearmongering in this thread. With the beneficiary designations and the JTWROS on the house, you've got 95% of it covered just fine. If you are concerned about the rest (personal belongings, cash, etc.) then just do a very simple will.

[increment]

there is just a lot of fearmongering in this thread

On this forum there are occasional complaints to the effect that "my horrible bank/brokerage lost my beneficiary designations." Perhaps those are just fearmongering, but they may give some motivation to write a will as a backup.

[Mullins]

Vehicles? Review how they are titled.

Furniture and other personal effects? If you have artwork, nice furniture, or other personal property with sentimental value, a will would handle these things.

Control of accounts (social media)? A will can assist your partner with handling those after your death.

If you die in an accident where another person is at fault, I assume you’d want your partner to get the settlement/judgment. Need a will for that.

And a will can name your partner as a personal rep/executor. There are administrative matters, such as tax returns, that you’ll likely want your partner to control.

Thanks, I hadn’t considered furniture or the settlement/judgement case

...and post-mortem refunds such as any insurance premiums paid, withholding or estimated Fed & State taxes paid, and who knows what else. After my mom passed, I received an unexpected refund check regarding her previous dental visit.

[Watty]

If you die in an accident where another person is at fault, I assume you’d want your partner to get the settlement/judgment. Need a will for that.

That is a very good point.

If the proverbial Mack truck hits you and there is a million dollar settlement I would assume that it would go to other relatives like parents, siblings, etc.

[fyre4ce]

How come no will to date (and - to the extent you care to answer - how come no marriage)?

Just turned 38, and had no assets other than brokerage account and 401k before 2023. Being "young" and asset-less, I never thought about a will before.

Purchased condo with unmarried partner in 2023. We own it jointly with right of survivorship.
Per upthread, remaining unmarried saves us about 16-18k annually in taxes, since we can deduct 100% of our mortgage interest on a ~1.5M mortgage, rather than being capped at 750k. That's in addition to some tax-rate arbitrage, since we pay a "marriage penalty" due to the tax brackets and our income levels.

Having no children removes some of the nudge to marry, and we both value the 16-18k in extra money more than the public declaration of commitment. As I am learning in the thread, there are some inheritance issues I need to consider to smooth the way if I die, or if we both die simultaneously.

Now that we have an asset, and some non-trivial investing accounts, it seems that the prudent decision is to get a will to lay out my/our desired beneficiaries for furniture or personal property, for the investing accounts (if the beneficiary set in Fidelity is insufficient).

$16-18,000/year in taxes would be a significant factor in my decision to get married or not too... That doesn't sound quite right to me though; the current MFJ brackets are very favorable in the ~$3-400k combined income range, which is probably somewhat close to your combined income if you are affording a $1.5M mortgage. Have you had those numbers checked? It could be possible, also considering the double $10,000 SALT deduction.

But yes, there's more to think about than just beneficiary designations. I didn't think about IRAs either until someone pointed it out. A small fraction of your annual tax savings should be spent on some high-quality estate planning to make sure you covered bases you didn't even know about.

If you have the income to support a $1.5M mortgage, your assets will probably increase over time which may change your estate planning needs.

[LotsaGray]

If you die without a will your state will decide who gets the money. It may or may not be who you want so it is best to have a will. The only people who don't need a will is people who have no assets.

And those who are fine with intestate rules. Honestly for many folks, intestate rules are likely fine. Maybe not optimal but ok. If you have no young kids and good family dynamics, everything going to spouse and kids (who might disclaim to the spouse if needed) is likely not a horrible outcome.

I get paid to draft wills so I would love to have everyone lined up to get one but there are plenty of folks for whom intestate rules are fine.

[LotsaGray]

Vehicles? Review how they are titled.

Furniture and other personal effects? If you have artwork, nice furniture, or other personal property with sentimental value, a will would handle these things.

Control of accounts (social media)? A will can assist your partner with handling those after your death.

If you die in an accident where another person is at fault, I assume you’d want your partner to get the settlement/judgment. Need a will for that.

And a will can name your partner as a personal rep/executor. There are administrative matters, such as tax returns, that you’ll likely want your partner to control.

A will cannot control who gets money from a future settlement from a case based on his death. I would love to see that clause. Such cases don’t normally pay the estate.