Weighing job options

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simplesimon
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Weighing job options

Post by simplesimon »

I am content with my current employer who I have been with for almost five years. Pretty good work life balance, an okay commute into the city 45-60 minutes door-to-door mostly train+walking two days a week, and very good retirement benefits: mix of pension, ESOP, and 401K match that add up to about 20% of salary + bonus. Upward mobility looks uncertain, I might even say unlikely in the next five years.

I was recruited for an interesting opportunity at a direct competitor and was crunching some numbers with their HR. Due to the significant retirement benefits at current employer and relative lack thereof at new employer (6% 401K match only) the total package will be about the same $, just reallocated from retirement benefit to increase in salary or a signing bonus or combination of the two. Work life balance is supposedly the same, commute may actually be a little bit lower with 20-25 minutes to a suburban office door-to-door but all driving and three days a week. Upward mobility is uncertain but of course recruiter is selling that point. The job itself is going to be a little different as it may improve my marketability. Talking to people I know who know the hiring manager say she is great.

Is the new role a no brainer? Should I be pushing for some additional form of comp to make the switch?

What other factors should I be considering?

Edit: Additional info

Quick update

Final offer
Last edited by simplesimon on Thu May 16, 2024 12:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
oilrig
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by oilrig »

simplesimon wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 2:16 pm I am content with my current employer who I have been with for almost five years. Pretty good work life balance, an okay commute into the city 45-60 minutes door-to-door mostly train+walking two days a week, and very good retirement benefits: mix of pension, ESOP, and 401K match that add up to about 20% of salary + bonus. Upward mobility looks uncertain, I might even say unlikely in the next five years.

I was recruited for an interesting opportunity at a direct competitor and was crunching some numbers with their HR. Due to the significant retirement benefits at current employer and relative lack thereof at new employer (6% 401K match only) the total package will be about the same $, just reallocated from retirement benefit to increase in salary or a signing bonus or combination of the two. Work life balance is supposedly the same, commute may actually be a little bit lower with 20-25 minutes to a suburban office door-to-door but all driving and three days a week. Upward mobility is uncertain but of course recruiter is selling that point. The job itself is going to be a little different as it may improve my marketability. Talking to people I know who know the hiring manager say she is great.

Is the new role a no brainer? Should I be pushing for some additional form of comp to make the switch?

What other factors should I be considering?
I dont really see what part of the new opportunity is a no brainer? There doesnt seem to be any significant upside with the new job. I would ask for a higher base + higher sign on bonus in order to make it worth your while.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by simplesimon »

oilrig wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 2:31 pm I dont really see what part of the new opportunity is a no brainer? There doesnt seem to be any significant upside with the new job. I would ask for a higher base + higher sign on bonus in order to make it worth your while.
Thank you, I appreciate that view. Perhaps it is my thinking that the "grass is greener." I've spoken to people who have recently left, some who joined this competitor, who believe it would be a great move to expand my skillset as they think my current role is a "dead end."

The pension benefit is pretty hard to overcome based on a number of discussions with recruiters over the past few years. The only way to get more money was to work more hours. While this isn't more money for less hours, it is the first role that I've seen that it is both a little interesting and the same money for same hours.
LotsaGray
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by LotsaGray »

simplesimon wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 2:16 pm I am content with my current employer who I have been with for almost five years. Pretty good work life balance, an okay commute into the city 45-60 minutes door-to-door mostly train+walking two days a week, and very good retirement benefits: mix of pension, ESOP, and 401K match that add up to about 20% of salary + bonus. Upward mobility looks uncertain, I might even say unlikely in the next five years.

I was recruited for an interesting opportunity at a direct competitor and was crunching some numbers with their HR. Due to the significant retirement benefits at current employer and relative lack thereof at new employer (6% 401K match only) the total package will be about the same $, just reallocated from retirement benefit to increase in salary or a signing bonus or combination of the two. Work life balance is supposedly the same, commute may actually be a little bit lower with 20-25 minutes to a suburban office door-to-door but all driving and three days a week. Upward mobility is uncertain but of course recruiter is selling that point. The job itself is going to be a little different as it may improve my marketability. Talking to people I know who know the hiring manager say she is great.

Is the new role a no brainer? Should I be pushing for some additional form of comp to make the switch?

What other factors should I be considering?
In my opinion if there is a no brainer here it would be to stay.

What you wrote did not say you had a motivation to leave current job and there were no problems with it. The new job doesn’t pay more and might be better. But that sounds like a very big night.


With no real reason to leave and no real compensation increase I would never change jobs. But I am old fashioned with only two post college jobs and the last of those was 31 yrs.
esteen
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by esteen »

I think it'd be a different equation if you were not content. Based on what you wrote, the only big reason to move to the new employer would be to improve your chances of future contentment... i.e. if you are content now but see yourself getting bored within 1-3 years at your current job, then it might make sense... otherwise I don't see a compelling reason to move. New jobs are full of unknowns - some can be upsides but some can definitely be unforeseen downsides too.

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BeaverBeliever
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by BeaverBeliever »

How old are you? Sub 45, take the new job. Over 55 definitely stay in current job.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by simplesimon »

LotsaGray wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 6:09 pm
In my opinion if there is a no brainer here it would be to stay.

What you wrote did not say you had a motivation to leave current job and there were no problems with it. The new job doesn’t pay more and might be better. But that sounds like a very big night.


With no real reason to leave and no real compensation increase I would never change jobs. But I am old fashioned with only two post college jobs and the last of those was 31 yrs.
In 31 years did you contemplate job switches? Why or why not?
esteen wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 6:21 pm I think it'd be a different equation if you were not content. Based on what you wrote, the only big reason to move to the new employer would be to improve your chances of future contentment... i.e. if you are content now but see yourself getting bored within 1-3 years at your current job, then it might make sense... otherwise I don't see a compelling reason to move. New jobs are full of unknowns - some can be upsides but some can definitely be unforeseen downsides too.

-es
This might be it…I’ve been in the same role for five years. I’ve accomplished some things, been rewarded a little bit, but don’t see anywhere for me to go. In a talk with my boss last year I told her I don’t want to do this long term, she said ok, but there does not seem to be any path forward. I am content because WLB is good compared to what I’ve seen out there…this is the first time I’ve seen an opportunity be interesting and different while same WLB supposedly can be maintained.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by simplesimon »

BeaverBeliever wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 6:36 pm How old are you? Sub 45, take the new job. Over 55 definitely stay in current job.
I am 39. What is your reasoning?
BeaverBeliever
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by BeaverBeliever »

At 39, a new job with acquisition of new skills will benefit you going forward. Congrats on having options. If you were closer to retirement, I'd say just stay and coast.
Jeepergeo
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by Jeepergeo »

The firm trying to recruit you has not worked too hard to get you to move over. I suspect you are dealing with an inside HR type individual as opposed to a paid on success recruiter.

From the little detail you provided, this is not a "no brainer" at all, but appears to be a clear "No Go." Until there is more honey in the offer, I suggest staying with the current hive.

Good luck and please report back once you make your decision.
Cuz789
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by Cuz789 »

I would not leave a job I was content with without the new one paying at least 15-20% more. Too many unknowns to take a chance if I'm content with where I am.
FreemanB
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by FreemanB »

I was in a similar position a little over ten years ago. I wasn't really satisfied with my current job where I'd been for about 4.5 years, even though it offered a good pension and retirement benefits. It had very little in the way of mobility or a path forward. I looked around and was offered another job that really wan't that different in terms of absolute compensation. It didn't have a pension, but had a better 401k match. But what it really offered was a potential path forward in terms of promotions, skills, and overall career. I made the change, and I've been with my current company since then, over ten years now(Longer than my 3 previous jobs combined), my salary has increased significantly in that time(Basically, I've been well rewarded for my performance), and most of all, I find the work highly satisfying. I've been promoted as high as I want to be, and basically, I'm in the position that I want to be in.

From what you wrote, you aren't particularly satisfied with your current job, no matter how good the benefits may be. Ultimately, the reasons only matter to you, but if you think the new job will be better in the long run, take it.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by Watty »

simplesimon wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 2:16 pm What other factors should I be considering?
You could keep looking and find a job someplace else which would be a clear better choice.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by simplesimon »

FreemanB wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 8:10 pm I was in a similar position a little over ten years ago. I wasn't really satisfied with my current job where I'd been for about 4.5 years, even though it offered a good pension and retirement benefits. It had very little in the way of mobility or a path forward. I looked around and was offered another job that really wan't that different in terms of absolute compensation. It didn't have a pension, but had a better 401k match. But what it really offered was a potential path forward in terms of promotions, skills, and overall career. I made the change, and I've been with my current company since then, over ten years now(Longer than my 3 previous jobs combined), my salary has increased significantly in that time(Basically, I've been well rewarded for my performance), and most of all, I find the work highly satisfying. I've been promoted as high as I want to be, and basically, I'm in the position that I want to be in.

From what you wrote, you aren't particularly satisfied with your current job, no matter how good the benefits may be. Ultimately, the reasons only matter to you, but if you think the new job will be better in the long run, take it.
How did you suss out promotion opportunities before taking the job? What level job were you at with the prior employer and with the new employer?

I'm like the #4 guy in my division so there is not really much upward mobility, I've been a little disappointed that my own responsibilities haven't progressed all that much like I said above I told my boss directly over a year ago I don't want to do part of it anymore. But I am content in that I know there are tradeoffs for any job and in this case the WLB is a big bonus. The new role piqued my interest because it seems like WLB would still be there while doing something different (and arguably more marketable in my industry.)
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by chassis »

simplesimon wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 2:16 pm I am content with my current employer who I have been with for almost five years. Pretty good work life balance, an okay commute into the city 45-60 minutes door-to-door mostly train+walking two days a week, and very good retirement benefits: mix of pension, ESOP, and 401K match that add up to about 20% of salary + bonus. Upward mobility looks uncertain, I might even say unlikely in the next five years.

I was recruited for an interesting opportunity at a direct competitor and was crunching some numbers with their HR. Due to the significant retirement benefits at current employer and relative lack thereof at new employer (6% 401K match only) the total package will be about the same $, just reallocated from retirement benefit to increase in salary or a signing bonus or combination of the two. Work life balance is supposedly the same, commute may actually be a little bit lower with 20-25 minutes to a suburban office door-to-door but all driving and three days a week. Upward mobility is uncertain but of course recruiter is selling that point. The job itself is going to be a little different as it may improve my marketability. Talking to people I know who know the hiring manager say she is great.

Is the new role a no brainer? Should I be pushing for some additional form of comp to make the switch?

What other factors should I be considering?
Don't do it. Change jobs for 20% increase in total compensation. I don't see that you would get that in this scenario. Read your first two sentences one more time.
FreemanB
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by FreemanB »

simplesimon wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 8:37 pmHow did you suss out promotion opportunities before taking the job? What level job were you at with the prior employer and with the new employer?

I'm like the #4 guy in my division so there is not really much upward mobility, I've been a little disappointed that my own responsibilities haven't progressed all that much like I said above I told my boss directly over a year ago I don't want to do part of it anymore. But I am content in that I know there are tradeoffs for any job and in this case the WLB is a big bonus. The new role piqued my interest because it seems like WLB would still be there while doing something different (and arguably more marketable in my industry.)
My case isn't really directly applicable. I was working mostly at a client site, far from the my main corporate office, with only a handful of others from my own company. However, I worked alongside people from the company I ultimately moved to, so I knew what their company was like based on both talking to them and just seeing how they were treated and progressed compared to myself. Also, in my previous job, there were things that I didn't like, and when I complained about them, nothing ever really changed. I cited one of my complaints in my exit interview, and my manager said they could do something about that if I would stay. I brushed it off, not wanting to burn bridges, but all I was thinking was "That should have been your response when I first brought it up. Too late now." At my current job, while not every problem can be solved by management, I always feel like they have listened to me and do what they can. And since I've been promoted, I often find myself in the same predicament with people I manage, but I make a sincere effort to help where I can and explain when I can't.

But as I said before, ultimately, you decided to look at other jobs for your own reasons, whatever they are. At 39, there's nothing wrong with changing jobs.(Actually, that's about how old I was when I started with my current company) Even if the immediate result isn't an increase in overall compensation, if you think it is the best move for your career, go for it. There are no absolutes, and it sounds like you've given the offer due-diligence. Don't let uncertainty and doubt hold you back if objectively you think this move will be good in the long run.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by MangoSmoothie »

OP, why is this new opportunity interesting and how will it benefit you?
  • Do you want more upward mobility?
  • Do you want higher compensation?
  • Do you want more responsibility?
  • What is lacking in your current place of employment that you expect to find at this new organization?
I changed jobs quite a few times during my working years. When I was about your age, I made a decision to move from a large private company with a great WLB to a very large Fortune 100 company. The comp was moderately better, but there was so much more perceived opportunity to learn and grow. While that decision lead to better compensation, future promotions, and additional employment opportunities outside the company, I paid for it with a significant increase in stress and a terrible WLB. I worked hard, took advantage of the opportunities, but this job change lead me to learn about personal finance so I could build a plan to become financially independent. My goal became retiring early because I was so burned out and stressed from all the pressure of supporting a 24/7 operation.

My advice is to think carefully about your goals in life and how they align with your career. Promotions and opportunity are great. I wouldn't be where I am without them (retired at 49). However, WLB and stress can be life altering so consider how this change could impact your current standard of living.

Good luck. I am sure you will make an informed decision. And even if things don't turn out exactly as you expected, you are still in control. There are always other opportunities.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by tashnewbie »

I think it would not be unreasonable to change jobs if you think the new job will improve growth opportunities, even if the comp isn't higher.

I would just want to have a clear growth pathway at the new job. Would you be hired at a higher level or is it a different type role?

You could also keep looking for a job that has clear growth pathway and higher comp.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by simplesimon »

tashnewbie wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 9:04 am I think it would not be unreasonable to change jobs if you think the new job will improve growth opportunities, even if the comp isn't higher.

I would just want to have a clear growth pathway at the new job. Would you be hired at a higher level or is it a different type role?

You could also keep looking for a job that has clear growth pathway and higher comp.
It's a different type of role. Currently I'm more of an internal consultant working on a projects. The new role would be closer to the front line where I used to be before taking the role I'm in now. It's not going to be a change in seniority really, it would be about equal. In another post I said I'm currently #4 in my division. At the prospective employer I'd be maybe #8 since the group is more staffed but because there's more positions above me there is a little more opportunity to move up.

I've changed employers less than a handful of times and each time was for a large boost in responsibilities and pay. I'm getting closer to the ceiling in terms of level and from my conversations with people in industry the only way to get paid a lot more (the 20%+ that people here are saying) is to sacrifice WLB by moving up or to a company with that type of culture and reward accordingly.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by oilrig »

simplesimon wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 2:58 pm
oilrig wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 2:31 pm I dont really see what part of the new opportunity is a no brainer? There doesnt seem to be any significant upside with the new job. I would ask for a higher base + higher sign on bonus in order to make it worth your while.
Thank you, I appreciate that view. Perhaps it is my thinking that the "grass is greener." I've spoken to people who have recently left, some who joined this competitor, who believe it would be a great move to expand my skillset as they think my current role is a "dead end."

The pension benefit is pretty hard to overcome based on a number of discussions with recruiters over the past few years. The only way to get more money was to work more hours. While this isn't more money for less hours, it is the first role that I've seen that it is both a little interesting and the same money for same hours.
Trust me, Im all about job hopping for better opportunities, but this doesnt really scream that much better to me than what you currently have. Ive made similar moves for equal money, and the new job ended up being a lot worse, and the compensation was the same. The grass isnt always greener, theres a lot of things that have to go right for you to like your new job: Good commute, like the work, work life balance, enough work to keep you busy but not too much where youre stressed, like the company, good boss, good coworkers, good company culture etc. If one of these things is off, then it can ruin everything.

If I were in your shoes, I would stay put and wait until a much better offer comes. You are in a good spot and can afford to be patient.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by Mr.Chlorine »

How big is the pension? The benefit you have accrued there should be safe, but if business ever goes south, one of the first things companies will do is freeze pensions. I assume you were grandfathered into the pension program, whereas a new hire at your company would not receive it. If that is true, there is even more reason to be worried about a future pension freeze.

Still, if you are comfortable in your current role and the total comp does not increase to switch, then I would stay put.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by simplesimon »

Mr.Chlorine wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 10:49 am How big is the pension? The benefit you have accrued there should be safe, but if business ever goes south, one of the first things companies will do is freeze pensions. I assume you were grandfathered into the pension program, whereas a new hire at your company would not receive it. If that is true, there is even more reason to be worried about a future pension freeze.

Still, if you are comfortable in your current role and the total comp does not increase to switch, then I would stay put.
The company recently switched it from a DB pension to a DC plan that sort of mimics the benefit of the DB plan. The company contributes a % according to an individually customized schedule based on someone’s age. They are currently contributing 11% for me which gradually increases to 27% at age 65.

It makes quantifying the benefit much easier and yes I’m grandfathered in. New employees of any age get a flat 5% contribution.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by Herekittykitty »

It is easier for me to visualize listed out as it is below - I used mainly the OP's words and put in a few comments and questions.

TIME WITH THE COMPANY:
Current employer - nearly 5 years
Job offer - none

OVERALL CONTENTMENT: (What constitutes overall contentment to you? Is it related to work life balance?)
Current employer - content
Job offer - unknown

WORK LIFE BALANCE: (I would want this more specific - what defines work life balance and what is "pretty good" and what is "supposedly the same"?)
Current employer - "pretty good"
Job offer - "supposedly the same"

COMMUTE:
Current employer - 45-60 minutes door-to-door mostly train+walking two days a week
Job offer - 20-25 minutes to a suburban office door-to-door but all driving and three days a week.

RETIREMENT BENEFITS:
Current employer - significant - very good retirement benefits: mix of pension, ESOP, and 401K match that add up to about 20% of salary + bonus.
Job offer - relative lack thereof

UPWARD MOBILITY:
Current employer - Upward mobility looks uncertain, I might even say unlikely in the next five years.
Job offer - Upward mobility is uncertain

HIRING MANAGER:
Current employer - likely irrelevant
Job offer - "talking to people I know who know the hiring manager say she is great" Is this relevant? How? Great in exactly what way? For whom?

MISCELLANEOUS:

- Retirement benefits at current employer and at new employer the total package will be about the same $, just reallocated from retirement benefit to increase in salary or a signing bonus or combination of the two.

- The job itself is going to be a little different as it may improve my marketability.

- Is the new role a no brainer? Should I be pushing for some additional form of comp to make the switch?

COMMENTS AND QUESTIONS TO CONSIDER:

Doesn't look like a no brainer to me. Here's a few things to consider. There are likely plenty I haven't thought of.

Do you have a spouse? If so, what does the spouse think?

Do you have kids? If so, what kind of work situation for you would be best for them?

When you sort out the list of features (or non features) of your current job, commute, and so on, and of the offer, what order would you prioritize the features in?

Have you done any research to see what other jobs are available and compared them to what you already have and to the offer? If not, why not?
I don't know anything.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by simplesimon »

Herekittykitty wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 7:47 pm It is easier for me to visualize listed out as it is below - I used mainly the OP's words and put in a few comments and questions.

....
Thank you, I appreciate you taking the time to organize those factors!

I’m in the commercial banking industry. I currently work about 40 hours a week at a smaller bank (<$50B assets). I have worked a mega bank and a private debt lender. I joined my current employer because it was a promotion (went from IC to manager) and it paid more. WLB was not a factor at the time, but I had two kids since joining, have it with this employer, and value it highly.

My manager: she’s only worked at this employer her entire career and started back when the bank was tiny. Great person but does not have a mind for developing her staff. She asked me to provide her feedback for what I want to do and how I want to get there. I did so and asked what she thinks a timeline might look like and she says she doesn’t know since her boss changed recently. Her boss’s boss has been with the bank for 25 years, came over from another division, and it’s obvious he plays favorites as he brought in someone who worked with him in the division he was in, who is younger than me, and promoted her to the same level as my boss (which I sense irks my boss.)

In the last couple of years, my role has shifted a bit more away from lending to back office project work. It is a small bank and I took that as an opportunity to learn new things and apply some of my big bank experience. I took on some responsibilities that a coworker who quit left us with and they’re not backfilling his role. I get a feeling that this experience is a little more company specific and might not be valued outside of this employer, hence the concern about future employability.

I did a number of interviews in search of higher comp and better experience but for the same WLB. What I’ve found is that only smaller banks will give me the same WLB but they would pay me less. So I concluded that my pay is market, or maybe I’m even overpaid because the pension is so valuable.

I interviewed with this prospective employer a couple of years ago. The recruiter called me up for this role because they thought it was a better fit compared to prior role and the other hiring manager I interviewed with recommended me to the current hiring manager.

I spoke with a couple people that works there. One recently left my employer and confirmed that WLB is similar. The other person is someone I worked with at another company and works for this manager so if I were to join we would be teammates. Both of them say she's great to work with/for. She has broader industry experience and perspective, which my current manager lacks, having worked at a mega bank and I believe she'd be able to help me grow professionally, at least more than where I am now.

My spouse said she would want a bit more compensation for the “hassle factor”. I do have kids and with the shorter commute I think my time with them would be the same or better.

I am placing high priority on WLB, which I have now which is why I'm content despite the negative factors I described above. I suppose what I see with this role is I can have my cake and eat it too.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by Thesaints »

The OP has two more or less equivalent job opportunity. I would try to play the field. Ask both for better terms.
Last edited by Thesaints on Sat May 04, 2024 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
campy2010
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by campy2010 »

It used to be that staying in jobs for more years made sense. Today, it’s viewed as someone who is stale and is not learning or growing, especially once you hit your 40s. Past 5 or 6 years even a lateral move is something to consider if it widens your network and exposes you to new industries.

That said, for a recruiter poaching an employee from a competitor is seen as a big win so don’t let them get away with no salary increase. It’s an employer market right now, so accepting a low ball offer could stagnate your salary progression if the market heats up and you’re not in a position to jump ship.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by simplesimon »

Thesaints wrote: Sat May 04, 2024 11:19 am The OP has two more or less equivalent job opportunity. I would try to play the field. Ask both for better terms.
How would you go about asking current employer about this?
campy2010 wrote: Sat May 04, 2024 11:22 am It used to be that staying in jobs for more years made sense. Today, it’s viewed as someone who is stale and is not learning or growing, especially once you hit your 40s. Past 5 or 6 years even a lateral move is something to consider if it widens your network and exposes you to new industries.

That said, for a recruiter poaching an employee from a competitor is seen as a big win so don’t let them get away with no salary increase. It’s an employer market right now, so accepting a low ball offer could stagnate your salary progression if the market heats up and you’re not in a position to jump ship.
I agree about poaching from direct competitor, I mentioned this to the recruiter during our conversation.
Ccthealias
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by Ccthealias »

Usually the competing company will buy you out if they really want you so I would go back to the negotiating table with that.

If there is no more to negotiate and the comp is flat, I don’t see the point of moving. There is always a learning curve which means more work in the beginning . Also in the worse case scenario, being longer in a company tends to mean more severance. In this economy you just never know..
simplesimon wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 2:58 pm
oilrig wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 2:31 pm I dont really see what part of the new opportunity is a no brainer? There doesnt seem to be any significant upside with the new job. I would ask for a higher base + higher sign on bonus in order to make it worth your while.
Thank you, I appreciate that view. Perhaps it is my thinking that the "grass is greener." I've spoken to people who have recently left, some who joined this competitor, who believe it would be a great move to expand my skillset as they think my current role is a "dead end."

The pension benefit is pretty hard to overcome based on a number of discussions with recruiters over the past few years. The only way to get more money was to work more hours. While this isn't more money for less hours, it is the first role that I've seen that it is both a little interesting and the same money for same hours.
Thesaints
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by Thesaints »

simplesimon wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 10:42 am
Thesaints wrote: Sat May 04, 2024 11:19 am The OP has two more or less equivalent job opportunity. I would try to play the field. Ask both for better terms.
How would you go about asking current employer about this?
Once you have the other offer in writing, go to your current employer and tell them that you'd love to stay and whatever niceties you can come up with, but it so happens that you just received a compelling offer from another company. You are very willing to find a way for you to stay, though.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by esteen »

Thesaints wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 11:03 pm
simplesimon wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 10:42 am
Thesaints wrote: Sat May 04, 2024 11:19 am The OP has two more or less equivalent job opportunity. I would try to play the field. Ask both for better terms.
How would you go about asking current employer about this?
Once you have the other offer in writing, go to your current employer and tell them that you'd love to stay and whatever niceties you can come up with, but it so happens that you just received a compelling offer from another company. You are very willing to find a way for you to stay, though.
But I would only encourage you to do this if you were truly honest about wiling to stay if they came up with a satisfactory increase. If you made up your mind to jump ship regardless, don't play the companies off each other. You will leave sour tastes in their mouths and many industries are small enough that there's talk and burned bridges aren't easily forgotten.
This post is for entertainment or information only, and should not be construed as professional financial advice. | | "Invest your money passively and your time actively" -Michael LeBoeuf
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simplesimon
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Re: Weighing job options

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I had my final round interview yesterday with the hiring manager's boss (a C-executive) and it went well. The hiring manager then showed up afterwards to go through the org chart - who would be reporting to me and who I'd be working with in other divisions. She asked if I had any questions or concerns and how this all sounded - I responded by saying everything sounded really good but did have a concern about comp based on my last discussion with HR (the call that prompted my original post.) She said great and that she hopes something can be worked out.

Today I received an email from the recruiter to have a call with him in the morning to discuss an offer. I haven't seen anything else yet but feel confident that I can negotiate an increase.
Jeepergeo wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 7:57 pm The firm trying to recruit you has not worked too hard to get you to move over. I suspect you are dealing with an inside HR type individual as opposed to a paid on success recruiter.

From the little detail you provided, this is not a "no brainer" at all, but appears to be a clear "No Go." Until there is more honey in the offer, I suggest staying with the current hive.

Good luck and please report back once you make your decision.
Question about the bolded part: you're right it is an internal HR recruiter. How would this affect how I negotiate?
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by Jeepergeo »

simplesimon wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 3:27 pm I had my final round interview yesterday with the hiring manager's boss (a C-executive) and it went well. The hiring manager then showed up afterwards to go through the org chart - who would be reporting to me and who I'd be working with in other divisions. She asked if I had any questions or concerns and how this all sounded - I responded by saying everything sounded really good but did have a concern about comp based on my last discussion with HR (the call that prompted my original post.) She said great and that she hopes something can be worked out.

Today I received an email from the recruiter to have a call with him in the morning to discuss an offer. I haven't seen anything else yet but feel confident that I can negotiate an increase.
Jeepergeo wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 7:57 pm The firm trying to recruit you has not worked too hard to get you to move over. I suspect you are dealing with an inside HR type individual as opposed to a paid on success recruiter.

From the little detail you provided, this is not a "no brainer" at all, but appears to be a clear "No Go." Until there is more honey in the offer, I suggest staying with the current hive.

Good luck and please report back once you make your decision.
Question about the bolded part: you're right it is an internal HR recruiter. How would this affect how I negotiate?
An outside, fee for service recruiter will work hard for their fee and that means they are working hard to get you placed since they probably don't get paid until you get hired. The outside recruiter likely takes orders from the hiring manager or owner too, so less internal friction getting to the decision maker.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by simplesimon »

Jeepergeo wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 10:07 pm An outside, fee for service recruiter will work hard for their fee and that means they are working hard to get you placed since they probably don't get paid until you get hired. The outside recruiter likely takes orders from the hiring manager or owner too, so less internal friction getting to the decision maker.
I see about the internal friction.

The offer came in o-k but lower than what I wanted. The HR guy literally told me that the hiring manager probably is willing to pay what I want but he has internal equity to consider i.e. what I want would be higher than other people at this level.

Why would he tell me that? And should I just tell them the top of the range of what I'd accept?
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by soccerrules »

Unless I missed something (i skipped from 1st post to Quick update) you really do not benefit from the move.
I would figure out the Comp Package that you NEED to make the move and tell them -- here it is if you want me. For me it would need to be a 15-20% increase minimum and likely other better perks (remote, less stress, smaller team, growth potential).

You don't need them, they likely need you. Know your worth and be willing to ask for it. If they say no, then you stay where you are. They may come back in 1-2 weeks or maybe not. The internal strife etc--is THEIR issue not yours.
Don't let your outflow exceed your income or your upkeep will be your downfall.
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Re: Weighing job options

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Just skimming the first post and the update about the offer, I sort of fail to see what the new job is compelling?

It seems like about the same pay for about the same seniority and about the same (small) chance of upward mobility? Seems like a lot of the same, and in exchange, you get the uncertainty of starting over, rebuilding your internal reputation with new stakeholders and a new manager. All of this, and you have to drive to work, which studies show is more stressful than train/bus/subway.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by ETK517 »

muffins14 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 9:04 am Just skimming the first post and the update about the offer, I sort of fail to see what the new job is compelling?

It seems like about the same pay for about the same seniority and about the same (small) chance of upward mobility? Seems like a lot of the same, and in exchange, you get the uncertainty of starting over, rebuilding your internal reputation with new stakeholders and a new manager. All of this, and you have to drive to work, which studies show is more stressful than train/bus/subway.
I agree with this except strongly disagree that a driving commute that's half the time of a train commute is likely to be more stressful. First, a 20 minute driving commute suggests traffic is not a major issue, and traffic is the major stressor when driving. Second, depending on the specifics, driving can be considerably less stressful because you don't have to organize your life around the train schedule (eg running 5 minutes late doesn't threaten to make you 30 minutes late if that's when the next train comes). Third, the train can be a very unpleasant experience (and one that is impossible to get meaningful work done on), again depending on the specifics (eg NYC subway commute is not pleasant at rush hour and you couldn't use a laptop). Fourth, much of the stress of the commute is the amount of time it consumes, and thus the additional work/life juggling it requires (eg to ensure you spend enough time with your kids). Changing to a driving commute is almost certainly a major plus in this situation (particularly if OP has a car already).
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by muffins14 »

ETK517 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 9:32 am
muffins14 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 9:04 am Just skimming the first post and the update about the offer, I sort of fail to see what the new job is compelling?

It seems like about the same pay for about the same seniority and about the same (small) chance of upward mobility? Seems like a lot of the same, and in exchange, you get the uncertainty of starting over, rebuilding your internal reputation with new stakeholders and a new manager. All of this, and you have to drive to work, which studies show is more stressful than train/bus/subway.
I agree with this except strongly disagree that a driving commute that's half the time of a train commute is likely to be more stressful. First, a 20 minute driving commute suggests traffic is not a major issue, and traffic is the major stressor when driving. Second, depending on the specifics, driving can be considerably less stressful because you don't have to organize your life around the train schedule (eg running 5 minutes late doesn't threaten to make you 30 minutes late if that's when the next train comes). Third, the train can be a very unpleasant experience (and one that is impossible to get meaningful work done on), again depending on the specifics (eg NYC subway commute is not pleasant at rush hour and you couldn't use a laptop). Fourth, much of the stress of the commute is the amount of time it consumes, and thus the additional work/life juggling it requires (eg to ensure you spend enough time with your kids). Changing to a driving commute is almost certainly a major plus in this situation (particularly if OP has a car already).
This is a story about what I was referring to:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... walkers-do
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 7815001370

For this point
Third, the train can be a very unpleasant experience (and one that is impossible to get meaningful work done on), again depending on the specifics (eg NYC subway commute is not pleasant at rush hour and you couldn't use a laptop)
I agree you aren't getting much work done, but you could read a book or read the news. You also can't do work on a laptop while driving, nor could you read a book. Your mind is engaged with managing traffic and being actively involved in driving/navigating.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by Cuz789 »

soccerrules wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 8:31 am Unless I missed something (i skipped from 1st post to Quick update) you really do not benefit from the move.
I would figure out the Comp Package that you NEED to make the move and tell them -- here it is if you want me. For me it would need to be a 15-20% increase minimum and likely other better perks (remote, less stress, smaller team, growth potential).

You don't need them, they likely need you. Know your worth and be willing to ask for it. If they say no, then you stay where you are. They may come back in 1-2 weeks or maybe not. The internal strife etc--is THEIR issue not yours.
^ this. I know exactly what I need to move when considering a job change before it gets to the offer stage. It helps remove the emotion from the situation.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by Jeepergeo »

simplesimon wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 8:04 am
Jeepergeo wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 10:07 pm An outside, fee for service recruiter will work hard for their fee and that means they are working hard to get you placed since they probably don't get paid until you get hired. The outside recruiter likely takes orders from the hiring manager or owner too, so less internal friction getting to the decision maker.
I see about the internal friction.

The offer came in o-k but lower than what I wanted. The HR guy literally told me that the hiring manager probably is willing to pay what I want but he has internal equity to consider i.e. what I want would be higher than other people at this level.

Why would he tell me that? And should I just tell them the top of the range of what I'd accept?
Exactly. Internal equity is only a concern if the HR manager reveals your salary to others as certainly this is not something a new hire would do. And "internal equity" is a common excuse by HR types.

If HR is refusing to present your counter to their offer to the hiring manager, you should consider ending negotiations. In a thank you letter to HR, CCing the hiring manager, thank them for the dialog and let them know that if things change with respect to the offer, you would be interested in further discussions.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by ETK517 »

muffins14 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 10:01 am
ETK517 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 9:32 am
muffins14 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 9:04 am Just skimming the first post and the update about the offer, I sort of fail to see what the new job is compelling?

It seems like about the same pay for about the same seniority and about the same (small) chance of upward mobility? Seems like a lot of the same, and in exchange, you get the uncertainty of starting over, rebuilding your internal reputation with new stakeholders and a new manager. All of this, and you have to drive to work, which studies show is more stressful than train/bus/subway.
I agree with this except strongly disagree that a driving commute that's half the time of a train commute is likely to be more stressful. First, a 20 minute driving commute suggests traffic is not a major issue, and traffic is the major stressor when driving. Second, depending on the specifics, driving can be considerably less stressful because you don't have to organize your life around the train schedule (eg running 5 minutes late doesn't threaten to make you 30 minutes late if that's when the next train comes). Third, the train can be a very unpleasant experience (and one that is impossible to get meaningful work done on), again depending on the specifics (eg NYC subway commute is not pleasant at rush hour and you couldn't use a laptop). Fourth, much of the stress of the commute is the amount of time it consumes, and thus the additional work/life juggling it requires (eg to ensure you spend enough time with your kids). Changing to a driving commute is almost certainly a major plus in this situation (particularly if OP has a car already).
This is a story about what I was referring to:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... walkers-do
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 7815001370

For this point
Third, the train can be a very unpleasant experience (and one that is impossible to get meaningful work done on), again depending on the specifics (eg NYC subway commute is not pleasant at rush hour and you couldn't use a laptop)
I agree you aren't getting much work done, but you could read a book or read the news. You also can't do work on a laptop while driving, nor could you read a book. Your mind is engaged with managing traffic and being actively involved in driving/navigating.
I can't access the actual study, but based on the article there's no sweeping conclusions to be drawn from a self-reported survey exclusively of faculty, staff, and students at McGill University, living in Montreal, a decade or so ago.

I listen to NPR, podcasts, and books on tape while driving (sometimes even continuing education audio), and find the experience to be pretty pleasant. I also often schedule work and personal calls during my commute.

In a perfect world, I'd take a reliable, clean, quiet train that picked me up more or less at my front door and dropped me off at the entrance to my office building in 20 mins or less, of course, but I live in the US where that system exists in one or two places, max.

All in all, I stand by the notion that a 20 minute car commute > 40+ minute train commute.
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Re: Weighing job options

Post by simplesimon »

Final offer came through with a little bit more money and putting in writing I'll get an outsized raise at the next review cycle. I'll be accepting this. Thank you everyone for making me ask for more!
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