Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

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homequestion
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2024 2:06 pm

Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by homequestion »

An older family member is looking to purchase a new home using funds from an investment portfolio, which they would then replenish with the sale of their current house. The portfolio currently has about four times the amount that the home would cost, but much of it is tied up in investments. The portfolio is managed by a financial manager, but we're not sure if we totally trust the manager's advice, which is why I'm posting here.

The manager is suggesting that my relative take out a margin loan to get access to liquid funds for the full amount of the purchase. Then, I believe the idea is that my relative would pay off the loan when their house sells. So if all goes well, the loan would be paid off within a few months. This is new to me, so I have many questions:
  • 1) Is this a standard way to finance a home purchase from an investment portfolio? Most of what I'm seeing about margin loans is about buying further investments, not purchasing a property.
    2) How would this be different from a "bridge loan?" Is one preferable to the other based on interest rates, etc?
    3) Here's where my ignorance really shows: if my relative already has the funds in their portfolio, why can't they simply sell off stocks to gain liquid funds to pay for the purchase? Would the fees/capital gains for selling the stocks end up being more than the interest paid on a margin loan? Or is there another reason?
Any advice is appreciated - just want to make sure I'm not getting bad advice that benefits the financial adviser more than my relative.
London
Posts: 840
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:50 am

Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by London »

While this isn’t plain vanilla, it’s not complicated. If you have a sizable portfolio that can withstand a downturn, the rates can be quite competitive. I like this strategy, especially if you’re selling another property and will be able to repay in the near future. I wouldn’t sell stocks and take a tax hit for a short term problem.
126inc
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:42 am

Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by 126inc »

it's fairly straighfoward and I have done it myself, here's a post that describes the mechanics of it and the pros and cons:
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2021/01 ... kr-review/

And as far as margin rates go ibrk pro is pretty aggressive and I had success getting Fidelity to match:
https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/t ... -rates.php
Last edited by 126inc on Mon Feb 05, 2024 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Journeyman510
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:04 pm

Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by Journeyman510 »

homequestion wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 2:24 pm An older family member is looking to purchase a new home using funds from an investment portfolio, which they would then replenish with the sale of their current house. The portfolio currently has about four times the amount that the home would cost, but much of it is tied up in investments. The portfolio is managed by a financial manager, but we're not sure if we totally trust the manager's advice, which is why I'm posting here.

The manager is suggesting that my relative take out a margin loan to get access to liquid funds for the full amount of the purchase. Then, I believe the idea is that my relative would pay off the loan when their house sells. So if all goes well, the loan would be paid off within a few months. This is new to me, so I have many questions:
  • 1) Is this a standard way to finance a home purchase from an investment portfolio? Most of what I'm seeing about margin loans is about buying further investments, not purchasing a property.
    2) How would this be different from a "bridge loan?" Is one preferable to the other based on interest rates, etc?
    3) Here's where my ignorance really shows: if my relative already has the funds in their portfolio, why can't they simply sell off stocks to gain liquid funds to pay for the purchase? Would the fees/capital gains for selling the stocks end up being more than the interest paid on a margin loan? Or is there another reason?
Any advice is appreciated - just want to make sure I'm not getting bad advice that benefits the financial adviser more than my relative.
Selling stocks with unrealized capital gains will turn them into realized capital gains. If your relative has unrealized gains they may not want to do that. Also depending on their state they may also include additional taxes on those realized capital gains. For example, in CA capital gains are taxed as ordinary income, which can be as high as 13.3%.

The other thing to look at would be a pledged asset line. Conceptually the same idea as using margin but the mechanics may be different.
adamthesmythe
Posts: 6092
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:47 pm

Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by adamthesmythe »

homequestion wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 2:24 pm An older family member is looking to purchase a new home using funds from an investment portfolio, which they would then replenish with the sale of their current house.
I have thought about upgrading the house so I have been considering different options.

The thing about the option loan is that in a black swan case you could be forced to sell at a considerable loss.

And then there's the capital gains tax, which could be significant.

It feels safer to use a heloc or bridge loan.
ccieemeritus
Posts: 837
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by ccieemeritus »

I recently used an asset-backed line-of-credit to partially fund a house purchase. We did this to delay selling some stock until 2024 for tax reasons. Worked great, but we did pay 7.82% interest which was not tax deductible.

A margin loan and an asset-backed line-of-credit are two separate things. A margin loan can be used for pretty much anything, including investing. Most taxable brokerage accounts are margin accounts. You can have $100k in cash (plus other assets), take out $300k, and suddenly you have a $200k margin loan. The percentage you can borrow is limited. If your stocks precipitously fall, they may give you a "margin call" and force you to sell stocks to pay back the loan. They will sell stocks on your behalf if necessary. Ugh.

An asset-backed line-of-credit is where you pledge the stock in a particular account against a line-of-credit. You can then draw down that line of credit. You can use the line of credit for most non-investment things. Because the stocks are pledged, you are not allowed to withdraw $$ from that account while you have a positive balance on the line-of-credit. In my case we created a new account, moved some stocks over to the account, and pledged that account/stocks to guarantee the line-of-credit. The line-of-credit is linked to our bank account. Whenever we "draw" from the LOC, money is ACH transferred to our bank account.

Because the line-of-credit requires setup/approval and cannot be used for investments, it is considered lower risk and generally charges a lower interest rate. For example, right now the margin rate at eTrade for a $250k-$500k loan is 12.2% (source https://etrade.com/pricing ). My line-of-credit rate is 7.72%. Asset-backed line of credit rate is *much better* than margin! My eTrade advisor says I could have gotten a better rate with a Morgan Stanley account.

Once my line-of-credit was approved, it sat with $0 balance and $0 interest/fees until we found a house to buy. Then we drew down the line-of-credit. As we sell stocks, we pay some back. When we have to make tax payments we draw down more.

The interest rates can fluctuate daily. I'm not required to make a periodic payment on my line-of-credit, but if I don't interest will compound.

Mortgage interest is tax-deductible, but my understanding is margin loans and my asset-backed line-of-credit are not. I would have preferred a mortgage for this reason alone. But (being retired with no income) I had issues getting a mortgage.

With an asset-backed line-of-credit, your assets need to exceed the credit line. For example, my "minimum equity" is about 10% more than the "max loan" amount. If my stocks dropped below the "minimum equity" amount, bad things would happen. I might have to decrease the "max loan" amount. If I'd already drawn down the max-loan amount, I'd need to sell some stock immediately to pay some back. I made sure I had a _much_better_ safety margin than 10%.

If you are correctly explaining what the manager is saying, I think he's giving you bad advice. The interest rate on the asset-backed line-of-credit is much better than a margin loan. A mortgage would be even better for tax reasons, but wasn't possible in my case. But the line-of-credit worked out very conveniently once we had the pledged account setup. We were able to get cash out and use it to fund the house 8 days after our offer was accepted. We treated the house offer as "cash-only" (which really means "no mortgage contingency").

Personal note: I'm paying off the last of the asset-backed-loan tomorrow! Woohoo! Interest is bad! But I'm keeping the (zero balance) line-of-credit live until my tax liabilities are fully paid April 15th...just in case.
Journeyman510
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:04 pm

Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by Journeyman510 »

ccieemeritus wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:45 pm I recently used an asset-backed line-of-credit to partially fund a house purchase. We did this to delay selling some stock until 2024 for tax reasons. Worked great, but we did pay 7.82% interest which was not tax deductible.

A margin loan and an asset-backed line-of-credit are two separate things. A margin loan can be used for pretty much anything, including investing. Most taxable brokerage accounts are margin accounts. You can have $100k in cash (plus other assets), take out $300k, and suddenly you have a $200k margin loan. The percentage you can borrow is limited. If your stocks precipitously fall, they may give you a "margin call" and force you to sell stocks to pay back the loan. They will sell stocks on your behalf if necessary. Ugh.

An asset-backed line-of-credit is where you pledge the stock in a particular account against a line-of-credit. You can then draw down that line of credit. You can use the line of credit for most non-investment things. Because the stocks are pledged, you are not allowed to withdraw $$ from that account while you have a positive balance on the line-of-credit. In my case we created a new account, moved some stocks over to the account, and pledged that account/stocks to guarantee the line-of-credit. The line-of-credit is linked to our bank account. Whenever we "draw" from the LOC, money is ACH transferred to our bank account.

Because the line-of-credit requires setup/approval and cannot be used for investments, it is considered lower risk and generally charges a lower interest rate. For example, right now the margin rate at eTrade for a $250k-$500k loan is 12.2% (source https://etrade.com/pricing ). My line-of-credit rate is 7.72%. Asset-backed line of credit rate is *much better* than margin! My eTrade advisor says I could have gotten a better rate with a Morgan Stanley account.

Once my line-of-credit was approved, it sat with $0 balance and $0 interest/fees until we found a house to buy. Then we drew down the line-of-credit. As we sell stocks, we pay some back. When we have to make tax payments we draw down more.

The interest rates can fluctuate daily. I'm not required to make a periodic payment on my line-of-credit, but if I don't interest will compound.

Mortgage interest is tax-deductible, but my understanding is margin loans and my asset-backed line-of-credit are not. I would have preferred a mortgage for this reason alone. But (being retired with no income) I had issues getting a mortgage.

With an asset-backed line-of-credit, your assets need to exceed the credit line. For example, my "minimum equity" is about 10% more than the "max loan" amount. If my stocks dropped below the "minimum equity" amount, bad things would happen. I might have to decrease the "max loan" amount. If I'd already drawn down the max-loan amount, I'd need to sell some stock immediately to pay some back. I made sure I had a _much_better_ safety margin than 10%.

If you are correctly explaining what the manager is saying, I think he's giving you bad advice. The interest rate on the asset-backed line-of-credit is much better than a margin loan. A mortgage would be even better for tax reasons, but wasn't possible in my case. But the line-of-credit worked out very conveniently once we had the pledged account setup. We were able to get cash out and use it to fund the house 8 days after our offer was accepted. We treated the house offer as "cash-only" (which really means "no mortgage contingency").

Personal note: I'm paying off the last of the asset-backed-loan tomorrow! Woohoo! Interest is bad! But I'm keeping the (zero balance) line-of-credit live until my tax liabilities are fully paid April 15th...just in case.
You can offset the interest you pay for a margin loan against investment income. I'd imagine the asset backed loan would be similar but I'm not certain.

I don't understand your comment about an option loan and black swan event. A black swan event would impact your asset based loan too.
ccieemeritus
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by ccieemeritus »

Journeyman510 wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 10:38 pm I don't understand your comment about an option loan and black swan event. A black swan event would impact your asset based loan too.
Yes. If the value of the portfolio drops sufficiently, it could force a sale in both a margin loan and an asset backed line of credit. Thank you for helping clarify.

Interesting point on the interest offset. I will investigate before tax time.
Journeyman510
Posts: 231
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by Journeyman510 »

Journeyman510 wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 10:38 pm
ccieemeritus wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:45 pm I recently used an asset-backed line-of-credit to partially fund a house purchase. We did this to delay selling some stock until 2024 for tax reasons. Worked great, but we did pay 7.82% interest which was not tax deductible.

A margin loan and an asset-backed line-of-credit are two separate things. A margin loan can be used for pretty much anything, including investing. Most taxable brokerage accounts are margin accounts. You can have $100k in cash (plus other assets), take out $300k, and suddenly you have a $200k margin loan. The percentage you can borrow is limited. If your stocks precipitously fall, they may give you a "margin call" and force you to sell stocks to pay back the loan. They will sell stocks on your behalf if necessary. Ugh.

An asset-backed line-of-credit is where you pledge the stock in a particular account against a line-of-credit. You can then draw down that line of credit. You can use the line of credit for most non-investment things. Because the stocks are pledged, you are not allowed to withdraw $$ from that account while you have a positive balance on the line-of-credit. In my case we created a new account, moved some stocks over to the account, and pledged that account/stocks to guarantee the line-of-credit. The line-of-credit is linked to our bank account. Whenever we "draw" from the LOC, money is ACH transferred to our bank account.

Because the line-of-credit requires setup/approval and cannot be used for investments, it is considered lower risk and generally charges a lower interest rate. For example, right now the margin rate at eTrade for a $250k-$500k loan is 12.2% (source https://etrade.com/pricing ). My line-of-credit rate is 7.72%. Asset-backed line of credit rate is *much better* than margin! My eTrade advisor says I could have gotten a better rate with a Morgan Stanley account.

Once my line-of-credit was approved, it sat with $0 balance and $0 interest/fees until we found a house to buy. Then we drew down the line-of-credit. As we sell stocks, we pay some back. When we have to make tax payments we draw down more.

The interest rates can fluctuate daily. I'm not required to make a periodic payment on my line-of-credit, but if I don't interest will compound.

Mortgage interest is tax-deductible, but my understanding is margin loans and my asset-backed line-of-credit are not. I would have preferred a mortgage for this reason alone. But (being retired with no income) I had issues getting a mortgage.

With an asset-backed line-of-credit, your assets need to exceed the credit line. For example, my "minimum equity" is about 10% more than the "max loan" amount. If my stocks dropped below the "minimum equity" amount, bad things would happen. I might have to decrease the "max loan" amount. If I'd already drawn down the max-loan amount, I'd need to sell some stock immediately to pay some back. I made sure I had a _much_better_ safety margin than 10%.

If you are correctly explaining what the manager is saying, I think he's giving you bad advice. The interest rate on the asset-backed line-of-credit is much better than a margin loan. A mortgage would be even better for tax reasons, but wasn't possible in my case. But the line-of-credit worked out very conveniently once we had the pledged account setup. We were able to get cash out and use it to fund the house 8 days after our offer was accepted. We treated the house offer as "cash-only" (which really means "no mortgage contingency").

Personal note: I'm paying off the last of the asset-backed-loan tomorrow! Woohoo! Interest is bad! But I'm keeping the (zero balance) line-of-credit live until my tax liabilities are fully paid April 15th...just in case.
You can offset the interest you pay for a margin loan against investment income. I'd imagine the asset backed loan would be similar but I'm not certain.

I don't understand your comment about an option loan and black swan event. A black swan event would impact your asset based loan too.
There may be use of proceeds requirements. I'm not at the stage of life where taxable investment income is important to me.
MBB_Boy
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by MBB_Boy »

OP,

This is very normal and reasonably common. You are reading about margin loans being used for investing because its the most common use - its not the only allowed use. They give you cash which you can use for anything.

There are limitations on how much you can borrow as a % of your portfolio, and no requirement to borrow up to that limit. If your relative only would be borrowing 10-15% of their assets, there would not be much risk even if stocks dropped. I think you'd need something like a 40% drop to risk a margin call, but don't quote me. Its a simple thing to clarify with the brokerage.

If the rate is better than alternatives like a bridge loan, I would do it. I've used them in the past for short term cash issues when I didn't feel like selling and realizing capital gains - especially back in the days when margin rates were 2% or under. M1 and Interactive brokers have the best rates.
sadie wess
Posts: 330
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by sadie wess »

Thanks for the topic and explanations.

I also am a senior living on my investments for income. I have 10 times the amount I would ever borrow in my portfolio.

I have no debt and 60 times my yearly expenses.

However, I have been with Vanguard for over 40 years and I have been wondering how to handle this.

I have a friend with Merrill Lynch that has been using a line-of-credit for a long time. To me, it is a form of debt but I would be willing to incur that debt if I can move without selling my current home.

Suggestions are appreciated.

Sadie
mrb09
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by mrb09 »

homequestion wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 2:24 pm An older family member is looking to purchase a new home using funds from an investment portfolio, which they would then replenish with the sale of their current house. The portfolio currently has about four times the amount that the home would cost, but much of it is tied up in investments. The portfolio is managed by a financial manager, but we're not sure if we totally trust the manager's advice, which is why I'm posting here.

The manager is suggesting that my relative take out a margin loan to get access to liquid funds for the full amount of the purchase. Then, I believe the idea is that my relative would pay off the loan when their house sells. So if all goes well, the loan would be paid off within a few months. This is new to me, so I have many questions:
  • 1) Is this a standard way to finance a home purchase from an investment portfolio? Most of what I'm seeing about margin loans is about buying further investments, not purchasing a property.
    2) How would this be different from a "bridge loan?" Is one preferable to the other based on interest rates, etc?
    3) Here's where my ignorance really shows: if my relative already has the funds in their portfolio, why can't they simply sell off stocks to gain liquid funds to pay for the purchase? Would the fees/capital gains for selling the stocks end up being more than the interest paid on a margin loan? Or is there another reason?
Any advice is appreciated - just want to make sure I'm not getting bad advice that benefits the financial adviser more than my relative.
I did something similar for our last house purchase, except I just used the margin loan for the down payment of the new house. I got a conventional mortgage loan for the remainder, and paid the margin loan and conventional mortgage loan off after the original house sold (we downsized). As other posters have mentioned, I didn’t want to take capital gains at the time so I avoided selling the equities I had. It turned out the original house sold immediately after it was on the market, but I had enough cash from the margin loan to float two houses and two payments for a while if needed.
JBSjr
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by JBSjr »

They work great until things go south and you get a margin call. That happened to me years ago. I leaned quickly with that experience.
PowderDay9
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by PowderDay9 »

ccieemeritus wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:45 pm I recently used an asset-backed line-of-credit to partially fund a house purchase.
I'm going to look into this option. Which company did you use for the asset-backed line of credit? Do you recommend them? Any initial fees involved?
126inc
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by 126inc »

ccieemeritus wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:45 pm For example, right now the margin rate at eTrade for a $250k-$500k loan is 12.2% (source https://etrade.com/pricing ). My line-of-credit rate is 7.72%. Asset-backed line of credit rate is *much better* than margin! My eTrade advisor says I could have gotten a better rate with a Morgan Stanley account.
That is only because you didn't negociate on the margin loan, IBRK blended for 250K is 6.53% right now:
https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/t ... -rates.php

All brokerages should negotiate if you ask, for example I'm currently at 6.3% (12.325% current reference rate - 6.025% discount) for any amount at fidelity:

Image
ccieemeritus
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by ccieemeritus »

PowderDay9 wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 5:29 pm
ccieemeritus wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:45 pm I recently used an asset-backed line-of-credit to partially fund a house purchase.
I'm going to look into this option. Which company did you use for the asset-backed line of credit? Do you recommend them? Any initial fees involved?
I used E*Trade because that’s where I had the taxable account I was going to use to back the line of credit. As @126inc pointed out, I could have gotten a better interest rate if I’d negotiated better, or moved my assets to another brokerage. Hopefully that info will help others. There were no fees beyond the interest. There were no fees until I drew down the line of credit. Drawing down and paying back the LOC is fully supported on E*Trade’s website.

I think most large brokerages support lines of credit. It seems like a substantial portion of brokerage profits are from loans. I personally would not transfer a significant percentage of my assets to a brokerage I’d never heard of.
placeholder
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by placeholder »

JBSjr wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 12:22 pm They work great until things go south and you get a margin call. That happened to me years ago. I leaned quickly with that experience.
The person in question has about 4X the loan amount in assets so how likely is a margin call?
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8foot7
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by 8foot7 »

placeholder wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 10:57 pm
JBSjr wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 12:22 pm They work great until things go south and you get a margin call. That happened to me years ago. I leaned quickly with that experience.
The person in question has about 4X the loan amount in assets so how likely is a margin call?
Not very. It isn’t a realistic concern if one borrows a quarter or less of their total account value. Their account would have to lose more than half its current value before there was any trouble.

I wouldn’t want to carry it for years at a time but for a few months even up to a year and a half or so, I’d be fine with it.
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Nicolas
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by Nicolas »

ccieemeritus wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 9:20 pm
PowderDay9 wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 5:29 pm
ccieemeritus wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:45 pm I recently used an asset-backed line-of-credit to partially fund a house purchase.
I'm going to look into this option. Which company did you use for the asset-backed line of credit? Do you recommend them? Any initial fees involved?
I used E*Trade because that’s where I had the taxable account I was going to use to back the line of credit. As @126inc pointed out, I could have gotten a better interest rate if I’d negotiated better, or moved my assets to another brokerage. Hopefully that info will help others. There were no fees beyond the interest. There were no fees until I drew down the line of credit. Drawing down and paying back the LOC is fully supported on E*Trade’s website.

I think most large brokerages support lines of credit. It seems like a substantial portion of brokerage profits are from loans. I personally would not transfer a significant percentage of my assets to a brokerage I’d never heard of.
I also used my E*Trade line of credit to buy a house. I did this as I wanted a ten day gap between the purchase of the house and sale of my last house. This was a cash offer and I didn’t want to sell any stock. That gave me a nice window to move out/in without selling stock. And as you stated, no fees besides the interest. I floated it for ten days only and then paid it off with the proceeds from my sale, very simple.
gmc4h232
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by gmc4h232 »

Forgive my ignorance, but if I look at IBKRs rates, they are charging between 6%-7% which seems to be comparable to conventional mortgage rates these days.

So what is the advantage over getting a traditional mortgage and then just paying it off when the current house sells?
placeholder
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by placeholder »

gmc4h232 wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:13 pm Forgive my ignorance, but if I look at IBKRs rates, they are charging between 6%-7% which seems to be comparable to conventional mortgage rates these days.

So what is the advantage over getting a traditional mortgage and then just paying it off when the current house sells?
1. Fees
2. Speed and ease of getting the loan
jstorz
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by jstorz »

I used a short box spread (directly, not BOXX) last year instead of a bridge loan to do this. It still requires margin (and thus margin calls would apply) but the rates are much closer to the current T-Bill rate and, with no closing fees, is significantly cheaper than a bank loan. I went a few months longer than I expected to need, and when my house sale settled I just bought T-Bills expiring right before the options expiration. On the off chance funds aren't available at expiration it simply rolls into a margin debt. The "loss" (loan interest) is also deductible as a 60/40 LT/ST loss which is the gravy on top. Strongly recommend this but only if you are confident it can be executed correctly.

https://www.boxtrades.com/
moneyflowin
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by moneyflowin »

jstorz wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:36 pm I used a short box spread (directly, not BOXX) last year instead of a bridge loan to do this. It still requires margin (and thus margin calls would apply) but the rates are much closer to the current T-Bill rate and, with no closing fees, is significantly cheaper than a bank loan. I went a few months longer than I expected to need, and when my house sale settled I just bought T-Bills expiring right before the options expiration. On the off chance funds aren't available at expiration it simply rolls into a margin debt. The "loss" (loan interest) is also deductible as a 60/40 LT/ST loss which is the gravy on top. Strongly recommend this but only if you are confident it can be executed correctly.

https://www.boxtrades.com/
Instead of buying T-bills, you should have bought back the box (buy to cover). It's cheaper to buy a box than to buy a T-bill of same maturity (boxes have higher yields which means lower price)
vinhodoporto
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by vinhodoporto »

placeholder wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 9:04 pm
gmc4h232 wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:13 pm Forgive my ignorance, but if I look at IBKRs rates, they are charging between 6%-7% which seems to be comparable to conventional mortgage rates these days.

So what is the advantage over getting a traditional mortgage and then just paying it off when the current house sells?
1. Fees
2. Speed and ease of getting the loan
Other advantages:

Appearing to be a “cash buyer” vs. one with a mortgage to sellers, if that’s important in your market.

You might not qualify to carry two mortgages at the same time due to income, but have a large amount of assets
jstorz
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by jstorz »

moneyflowin wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 8:07 pm Instead of buying T-bills, you should have bought back the box (buy to cover). It's cheaper to buy a box than to buy a T-bill of same maturity (boxes have higher yields which means lower price)
Good point - next time :happy
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cchrissyy
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by cchrissyy »

this is a fine thing to do.
it avoids the fees of a mortgage and the capital gains tax of selling.
it lets you be a cash buyer from the sellers perspective and not have any hassle with the bank such as a credit check and proof of income and all that other mortgage paperwork.
it adds the costs of interest at a floating rate but for such a short term it is nothing to worry about.

i would only note two things i don't see pointed out yet
1 - you can only do margin or pledged asset credit line against a brokerage account. if your relative is counting their retirment accounts in their portfolio size that is not right. it will not be part of their available credit and the calculations for what % of your portfolio you have borrowed. the entire idea gets more risky if you are borrowing too high a percent of your portfolio. i would suggest never more than half.
2 - the investment advisor's self-interest is to keep more of your funds under their control, selling stocks to buy the house is worse for them than having you stay invested and use a credit line. you need to do your own analysis on if the tax cost of selling is truly worth avoiding.
60-20-20 us-intl-bond
Tabulator
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by Tabulator »

Let's assume a margin loan to fund a cash purchase goes well, meaning the broker is never required to sell holdings due to an unexpected market event. How might the loan affect tax documents, if at all?

When a person uses a margin loan to get cash, will the loan appear on tax documents at the end of the year?
muffins14
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by muffins14 »

Tabulator wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 2:46 pm Let's assume a margin loan to fund a cash purchase goes well, meaning the broker is never required to sell holdings due to an unexpected market event. How might the loan affect tax documents, if at all?

When a person uses a margin loan to get cash, will the loan appear on tax documents at the end of the year?
The interest you pay on the margin loan will show up on some document. You likely cannot deduct it, but I am not sure.
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
toddthebod
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by toddthebod »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 3:00 pm
Tabulator wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 2:46 pm Let's assume a margin loan to fund a cash purchase goes well, meaning the broker is never required to sell holdings due to an unexpected market event. How might the loan affect tax documents, if at all?

When a person uses a margin loan to get cash, will the loan appear on tax documents at the end of the year?
The interest you pay on the margin loan will show up on some document. You likely cannot deduct it, but I am not sure.
You can deduct it if you itemize and have investment income.
muffins14
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by muffins14 »

toddthebod wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 3:03 pm
muffins14 wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 3:00 pm

The interest you pay on the margin loan will show up on some document. You likely cannot deduct it, but I am not sure.
You can deduct it if you itemize and have investment income.
Even if it used for a home purchase?
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
toddthebod
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by toddthebod »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 3:17 pm
toddthebod wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 3:03 pm

You can deduct it if you itemize and have investment income.
Even if it used for a home purchase?
Money is fungible, right? It doesn't matter what you actually use the money for. Pretty much all tax laws work this way. Pay your tuition out of pocket in January, then use 529 funds to buy a car in June? No problem.
muffins14
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by muffins14 »

toddthebod wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 4:13 pm
muffins14 wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 3:17 pm

Even if it used for a home purchase?
Money is fungible, right? It doesn't matter what you actually use the money for. Pretty much all tax laws work this way. Pay your tuition out of pocket in January, then use 529 funds to buy a car in June? No problem.
I guess I thought there was some risk you had to prove an investment happened to the IRS

For example I used margin loans to finance a home renovation instead of selling stocks, and I didn’t plan to deduct that interest. By the fungible theory I could say I sold stocks and did the renovation and then bought the stocks on margin, I suppose?
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
toddthebod
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by toddthebod »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 4:16 pm
toddthebod wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 4:13 pm

Money is fungible, right? It doesn't matter what you actually use the money for. Pretty much all tax laws work this way. Pay your tuition out of pocket in January, then use 529 funds to buy a car in June? No problem.
I guess I thought there was some risk you had to prove an investment happened to the IRS

For example I used margin loans to finance a home renovation instead of selling stocks, and I didn’t plan to deduct that interest. By the fungible theory I could say I sold stocks and did the renovation and then bought the stocks on margin, I suppose?
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f4952.pdf
Gross income from property held for investment (excluding any net gain from
the disposition of property held for investment)
Tabulator
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by Tabulator »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 3:00 pm The interest you pay on the margin loan will show up on some document.
Thanks for this hint. If anyone cares to elaborate on this, I'm curious to know how the loan or interest will appear on a document.
muffins14
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by muffins14 »

Tabulator wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 2:05 pm
muffins14 wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 3:00 pm The interest you pay on the margin loan will show up on some document.
Thanks for this hint. If anyone cares to elaborate on this, I'm curious to know how the loan or interest will appear on a document.
It was on a page of the pdf that contained my 1099 from Fidelity at tax time. It was “supplemental information”
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
toddthebod
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by toddthebod »

Tabulator wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 2:05 pm
muffins14 wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 3:00 pm The interest you pay on the margin loan will show up on some document.
Thanks for this hint. If anyone cares to elaborate on this, I'm curious to know how the loan or interest will appear on a document.
Margin interest is not reported to the IRS by the broker. It should appear somewhere in the supplemental info in your 1099 Consolidated, however.
jstorz
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by jstorz »

Look into a box spread loan - much better rates than margin (typically). Did this last year to make a cash offer before selling my previous home.

https://thefinancebuff.com/short-box-sp ... elity.html
MarkNYC
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Re: Margin Loan for Home Purchase?

Post by MarkNYC »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 4:16 pm
toddthebod wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 4:13 pm

Money is fungible, right? It doesn't matter what you actually use the money for. Pretty much all tax laws work this way. Pay your tuition out of pocket in January, then use 529 funds to buy a car in June? No problem.
I guess I thought there was some risk you had to prove an investment happened to the IRS

For example I used margin loans to finance a home renovation instead of selling stocks, and I didn’t plan to deduct that interest. By the fungible theory I could say I sold stocks and did the renovation and then bought the stocks on margin, I suppose?
The "money is fungible" principle doesn't apply to the issue of tax deduction for interest paid. Treas. Reg. 1.163-8T provides that the deductibility of debt interest is determined by tracing the loan proceeds to specific expenditures made. The specific type of expenditure will determine if and how the interest is deductible. How the loan is secured does not determine deductibility (although mortgage interest requires that the property secure the loan). For example, if a margin loan is used for personal expenses, the interest is not deductible even though the taxpayer may have sufficient investment income. The interest tracing rules can sometimes get complicated.
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